INTERNET TEST: 24-bit vs. 16-bit Audio Blind Test...

[Archimago]

It's "live" :-). Simple question... Can you tell the difference between
24/96 and 16/96 (encapsulated in 24/96 container) audio? Is there merit
to 24-bit even necessary for home audio reproduction?

Thanks for some of you who participated on the "beta test" over the last
week.

Feel free to have audiophile friends give it a shot and let me know on
the survey site!

http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/04/internet-test-24-bit-vs-16-bit-audio.html

Happy Easter everyone.



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[Archimago]

BTW: Could someone invite Neil Young? Thanks. :cool:



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[Mnyb]

Very impressive work as usual :)

Is it anouced here and on your blog ? Do you write on any other forum ?

Is fun do the test and fill in the form more people means better result



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[RonM]

Archimago wrote:
> It's "live" :-). Simple question... Can you tell the difference between
> 24/96 and 16/96 (encapsulated in 24/96 container) audio? Is there merit
> to 24-bit being necessary/beneficial for home audio reproduction?
>

It would also be interesting to see a comparison between 24/96 and
16/44, being the two most contrasted forms. Has this already been done?


R.



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[Mnyb]

That would have been nice .

But it would be easy to spot which files is what , with a simple
spectrum analysis .
And then we get some bias into the test. Even if people are honest
knowing beforehand would ruin it .

I dont think there is good method to fake >20k content for the other
testfile.

I would also loved a 16/44.1 file as it is the dreaded cd resolution , i
can only assume that it was to hard to do properly.

Anyway we are contrained quite naturally by our hearing , the difference
if any would be in the bith depth with more resulotion.



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[Wombat]

RonM wrote:
> It would also be interesting to see a comparison between 24/96 and
> 16/44, being the two most contrasted forms. Has this already been done?

First i want to thank Archimago for all the work he does lately to
illustrate audio knowledge for all to understand easy and colorful!

In all these tests unfortunately will be people knowing how to use a wav
editor to do their analysis. Afterwards, when they know by analyzing
they just create interesting sounding buzzwords how they found out by
listening.
With 16/44.1 against 24/96 even the noobest noob will be able to
identify it. This makes such an open listening test pretty pointless.
Even in this nice test Archimago did set up people can cheat pretty
easily. Archimago seems to have much more faith in human fairness than
me i guess :)

One short story related to this debate. On another forum is going a
thread of how to find out Hires is worth it and on several pages they
try to find a HiRes release against a cd version to test. No one has the
idea to just downsample the HiRes release, lol!



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[JJZolx]

Most audiophiles think ABX testing is worthless. Why would they want to
ABX these samples? It's like telling an atheist to try praying to some
god or another and seeing if they get any results.

I'm also not sure what exactly the point would be of encoding them both
at 24/96 when many people think that the 96 kHz encoding itself is
detrimental to sound quality. That includes many audiophiles who prefer
44.1 kHz.

Good luck with this test. I imagine you'll get quite a few people who
are already convinced that hi-res audio is a scam and will come back and
confirm to you there's absolutely no difference.


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[Archimago]

JJZolx wrote:
> Most audiophiles think ABX testing is worthless. Why would they want to
> ABX these samples? It's like telling an atheist to try praying to some
> god or another and seeing if they get any results.
>
> I'm also not sure what exactly the point would be of encoding them both
> at 24/96 when many people think that the 96 kHz encoding itself is
> detrimental to sound quality. That includes many audiophiles who prefer
> 44.1 kHz.
>
> Good luck with this test. I imagine you'll get quite a few people who
> are already convinced that hi-res audio is a scam and will come back and
> confirm to you there's absolutely no difference.

Wow... When did "many audiophiles" prefer 44.1kHz and think 96kHz would
be detrimental!? Monty's well known page about 192kHz makes sense and
certainly you can get some intermodulation distortion with that much
overhead; but I think most reasonable audiophiles / engineers would
consider 96kHz about the sweet spot for maintaining high quality and
reasonable file size. The reason to keep at 96kHz is precisely because
that is the sweet spot IMO and most DACs measure exceptionally well with
that sample rate these days plus the effects of digital filtering is
reduced compared to 44/48kHz given that extra octave.

Well, as Wombat states, I do have a little more faith in humanity :-).

My interest is *not* as a proof to the audiophiles. To be honest, the
faithful are a small percentage and as you indicate, unlikely to change
(granted I know I've converted a few of them to the "dark" objective
side in the last year!). However, my sense is that those guys are
diminishing as a group. Each year that goes by, I think their influence
will diminish for many reasons I won't go into here. I'm more interested
in opening up a discussion and an opportunity to the folks just starting
to "get into" audio and the whole idea of high-resolution.

For now, the "ship has sailed". The test has begun, and it's great to
see the detailed responses people have entered already. I hope this
provides an opportunity for those who are not as technical to experience
the "difference" for themselves and contribute to a body of data which
can at least try to answer whether larger file size, and higher expense
would be audibly beneficial.

---

Yes, the reason I would not do an Internet 44kHz vs. 96kHz test is that
it's way too easy to spot the difference. I have some faith in humanity;
but not *that* much :-). The only way to try something like that is with
controlled testing in one's home / listening room with test subjects.

As for advertising on other boards, I encourage folks to pass the site
around! I do go to other boards as well and over the weeks will put in
similar posts like this one... I figure we have 2 months. So as not to
hammer my FTP site, I figure I'll just let the visitors to the blog and
this forum have the first crack at it!



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[Mnyb]

Yeah dont be the gringe :) this fora alone has >10 ex" audiphooles" so
its not a totally lost cause it never is.

Remember couple of years ago when the audiophile forum got almost
completely swamped by cracpots and many interesting and good forum
members simply left the forum .



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[Wombat]

JJZolx wrote:
> Most audiophiles think ABX testing is worthless. Why would they want to
> ABX these samples? It's like telling an atheist to try praying to some
> god or another and seeing if they get any results.
I already had one person that was convinced it is easy to spot a
difference and on the first sample he already got pretty confused :)

JJZolx wrote:
> I'm also not sure what exactly the point would be of encoding them both
> at 24/96 when many people think that the 96 kHz encoding itself is
> detrimental to sound quality. That includes many audiophiles who prefer
> 44.1 kHz.
First comes bit-depth, on judgement day comes samplerate and then we
rule the world!!

JJZolx wrote:
> Good luck with this test. I imagine you'll get quite a few people who
> are already convinced that hi-res audio is a scam and will come back and
> confirm to you there's absolutely no difference.
Did you enter your results to the survey?



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[Archimago]

Just put in an invite to Audio Asylum... Many audiophiles hang out there
but it's not a big site either in terms of head count I suspect!



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[foxx]

A big Thanks to you, Archimago. I really appreciate your input and your
blog. It is extremely refreshing to be brought down back to earth.
I am none of the believers of HiRes .. but ... I believe I have spotted
something in your test files. I won't say what it is as not to influence
the rest of the crowd. And it isn't anything that would make me buy
HiRes stuff either. On the contrary, I liked more what I considered to
be the dithered material.


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[Wombat]

foxx wrote:
> I am none of the believers of HiRes .. but ... I believe I have spotted
> something in your test files. I won't say what it is as not to influence
> the rest of the crowd. And it isn't anything that would make me buy
> HiRes stuff either. On the contrary, I liked more what I considered to
> be the dithered material.
From a technical point of view there was not used the maximum possible
method so to prevent easy spotting by eye.
Oh, wait i wanted to keep that excuse for later ;)



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[foxx]

When I wrote 'spotted' I meant 'heard'.
Certainly, I did take a look at file sizes and creation dates ... but
those might be deliberately misleading. And I am missing more elaborate
tools and the technical understanding to investigate any further.


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[Archimago]

foxx wrote:
> When I wrote 'spotted' I meant 'heard'.
> Certainly, I did take a look at file sizes and creation dates ... but
> those might be deliberately misleading. And I am missing more elaborate
> tools and the technical understanding to investigate any further.

Indeed I was aware of those factors as well, foxx :-)



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[Pascal Hibon]

I just filled out the questionnaire... looking forward to the results.
I have also posted the link on a Belgian audio forum and hope that many
members will participate.

Another interesting test would be to compare CD quality to high res
material.



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[Archimago]

Pascal Hibon wrote:
> I just filled out the questionnaire... looking forward to the results.
> I have also posted the link on a Belgian audio forum and hope that many
> members will participate.
>
> Another interesting test would be to compare CD quality to high res
> material.

Thanks Pascal!

Appreciate it :-).

The responses are coming in and it's good to see input from a number of
countries in Europe, US, and as far out as New Zealand...
Yup CD vs. high-res would be fantastic if there were only a way to
ensure that it was done blindly. I can imaging maybe a Windows/Mac/Linux
program where you could choose ABX where it would play 24/96 or 16/44
that's upsampled to 24/96 maybe so the DAC doesn't show the change in
resolution? The whole thing could be packaged in an executable so it
isn't tampered with easily?

Anyone heard of such a thing?



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[ralphpnj]

I just posted a link to both the test itself and this thread over on
Head-fi.org in the "Sound Science" section.

Thank you Archimago for your relentless efforts to help rid the world of
audiophile voodoo.



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[adamdea]

I have posted a link to this test (mistakenly suggesting that it is
16/44 vs 24/96 but i hope to be able to correct that) on Pinkfish.
It has been suggested on that site by someone that the two files do not
not to the expected level. *Archimago could you possibly check*. As a
matter of interest what program did you use for the downconversion?


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[Wombat]

adamdea wrote:
> It has been suggested on that site by someone that the two files do not
> not to the expected level. *Archimago could you possibly check*. As a
> matter of interest what program did you use for the downconversion?
Files do not not to the expected level? What does this mean? I you mean
they don't perfectly "null" take it as done by purpose. Also telling
what program was used would only lead to more dubious discussion.
Seems like on pinkfishmedia they did some analysis but up to page 4 no
one really talked about what he hears.



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[adamdea]

Wombat wrote:
> Files do not not to the expected level? What does this mean? I you mean
> they don't perfectly "null" take it as done by purpose. Also telling
> what program was used would only lead to more dubious discussion.
> Seems like on pinkfishmedia they did some analysis but up to page 4 no
> one really talked about what he hears.
Yes nulls (corrected).


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[darrenyeats]

Latest on PFM is the diff might have been subject to user error ...



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

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[Mnyb]

Wombat wrote:
> Files do not not to the expected level? What does this mean? I you mean
> they don't perfectly "null" take it as done by purpose. Also telling
> what program was used would only lead to more dubious discussion.
> Seems like on pinkfishmedia they did some analysis but up to page 4 no
> one really talked about what he hears.

hmm .

do people listen honestly ?, like i did in my normal listening position
and environment , loud but not silly loud ?

or do people turn up the reverbtails with headphones or creep closer to
their speaker and turn up or what ?

You can probably spot something using completely artificial listen
conditions but that not honest , listen as you normally do with any
other music :) nobody "wins" anything by cheating ?



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[foxx]

Would someone enlighten me, please? What does 'null' mean in this
context?


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[adamdea]

foxx wrote:
> Would someone enlighten me, please? What does 'null' mean in this
> context?
If you subtract one file from the other, you would expect them to cancel
out completely if identical. If they were identical down to the 16th
bit, you would expect the -difference- to be limited to a signal at 16th
bit level only ie nulling down to -90dB or so (the precise answer would
depend on the sort of dither used..

Actually someone whose judgment I trust has confirmed a null with the
harpsichord track down to -98dB. Anyway I was not wanting to encourage
cheating, I was simply wanting to warn Archimago that someone (on whose
judgment I had better not express an opinion) was alleging that there
was a problem with the downconversion.


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[foxx]

Thank you, Adamdea! I think I got it.

But which harpischord track are you referring to? There is no
harpischord in Archimago's samples, at least not as the leading
instrument.


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[adamdea]

foxx wrote:
> Thank you, Adamdea! I think I got it.
>
> But which harpischord track are you referring to? There is no
> harpischord in Archimago's samples, at least not as the leading
> instrument.
No you're quite right. I was thinking of the Goldberg variation track
which is on piano and not (as I had imagined for some reason) on
harpsichord. I haven't had the chance to sit down and do the test myself
yet.


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[Archimago]

adamdea wrote:
> If you subtract one file from the other, you would expect them to cancel
> out completely if identical. If they were identical down to the 16th
> bit, you would expect the -difference- to be limited to a signal at 16th
> bit level only ie nulling down to -90dB or so (the precise answer would
> depend on the sort of dither used..
>
> Actually someone whose judgment I trust has confirmed a null with the
> harpsichord [no it isn't it's a piano- what was I thinking of?] track
> down to -98dB. Anyway I was not wanting to encourage cheating, I was
> simply wanting to warn Archimago that someone (on whose judgment I had
> better not express an opinion) was alleging that there was a problem
> with the downconversion.

Thanks for the note Adam.

Myself and the beta-testers did consider scenarios such as this. Surely
you know we would try our best to keep the identity of the tracks hidden
as best we could without invalidating the test altogether - fine line
there but I think we did a good job...

Therefore, indeed, it is possible for the null test to show "unexpected"
results but that depends alot on other factors.

Great to see the responses so far! Just with the FTP site, >120
transfers of the file already. I of course do not expect that many
responses yet since there's plenty of time to listen, but I am impressed
by the quality of responses so far and the variety of gear people are
using! Clearly folks are not using "junk" gear to assess and the
majority are spending time listing out for me what they use and
subjective impressions. All will be revealed in time of course...

Keep the responses coming!



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[Archimago]

Adam,

Since your friend did the test on the Goldberg already, tonight I just
did a null test on 'Bozza' and 'Vivaldi'. Looks fine to me with peak
amplitude differences at -90dB or so for both.



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[adamdea]

Archimago wrote:
> Adam,
>
> Since your friend did the test on the Goldberg already, tonight I just
> did a null test on 'Bozza' and 'Vivaldi'. Looks fine to me with peak
> amplitude differences at -90dB or so for both.

Thanks for that confirmation. TBH I didn't doubt you.
Thanks again for running this test. I think that you make a really
valuable contribution for those who are actually interested in finding
out the facts.


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[Mnyb]

Should the results for "goldberg" be discarded if there is some kind
bias aviable on some fora ?

It can go either way ? but can it be relied on ?

To counter this effect don't search to much on the net on this but
simply take the test under "natural" listening konditions and contribute
to the statistics .

So if as many people as possible with a real intrest in the true result
take the test honestly ,the result will be much better :)



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iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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[Archimago]

Mnyb wrote:
> Should the results for "goldberg" be discarded if there is some kind
> bias aviable on some fora ?
>
> It can go either way ? but can it be relied on ?
>
> To counter this effect don't search to much on the net on this but
> simply take the test under "natural" listening konditions and contribute
> to the statistics .
>
> So if as many people as possible with a real intrest in the true result
> take the test honestly ,the result will be much better :)

Good point... Let me know if you guys see postings which would clearly
bias voters!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Archimago]

Just invited the boys at ComputerAudiophile General Forum last night...

One stat I'll reveal - 100% male response. Would be amazing to get even
one lady respond!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[Stratmangler]

Archimago wrote:
> Would be amazing to get even one lady respond!

Clearly they have much better things to be getting on with :)
I certainly have.
Music and beer await ...



Chris :)
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Just invited the boys at ComputerAudiophile General Forum last night...
>
> One stat I'll reveal - 100% male response. Would be amazing to get even
> one lady respond!

Perhaps ZZJolx's mom will take the test but first you have to add some
Skynyrd samples :)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Perhaps ZZJolx's mom will take the test but first you have to add some
> Skynyrd samples :)

LOL Ralph. I'll remember that next time... :eek:



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> Just invited the boys at ComputerAudiophile General Forum last night...

Interesting - that will test how good your "masking" is - if one of them
figures out a way to tell the samples apart, they will all use that
instead of actually listening (this based on a similar listening test I
did over at CA at one point, that had to be stopped prematurely because
one of the members spotted a way to tell the samples apart and posted it
- that changes pretty much all the responses from that point on).



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Archimago]

Julf wrote:
> Interesting - that will test how good your "masking" is - if one of them
> figures out a way to tell the samples apart, they will all use that
> instead of actually listening (this based on a similar listening test I
> did over at CA at one point, that had to be stopped prematurely because
> one of the members spotted a way to tell the samples apart and posted it
> - that changes pretty much all the responses from that point on).

Wow. That sucks! Not cool...

Hopefully that doesn't happen.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Archimago]

Julf wrote:
> You do realize that if your test is successful you will probably be
> banned? :)

Well... So be it if that is the case. How odd it is that in 2014, there
would even be controversy in using blind testing to empirically explore
thresholds of human perception. As if there's some kind of heretical
thinking going on here ;)

Speaking of heresy... I also left a response on the recent Audio Stream
article by Mike L. defending Pono against the evil "Guardian" inviting a
look at the test. Looks like Mr. Lavorgna is trying to play scientist /
reader of scientific literature now.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> As if there's some kind of heretical thinking going on here

Well, I definitely felt a bit of a heretic when I got a 1-week ban on
Pink Fish for saying "Any evidence?". Yes, those two words was all I
responded, and that got me banned. :)

> Speaking of heresy... I also left a response on the recent Audio Stream
> article by Mike L. defending Pono against the evil "Guardian" inviting a
> look at the test. Looks like Mr. Lavorgna is trying to play scientist /
> reader of scientific literature now.

Reading is one thing, reading comprehension another... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Gandhi]

Somewhere in this thread there are suggestions to also compare 16/44.1
and 24/96. That would certainly be interesting, but an alternative would
be to brush up on the 2007 AES paper "Audibility of a CD-Standard A/DA/A
Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback". It never gets old.

www.drewdaniels.com/audible.pdf

And while I have your attention (or perhaps not), I'd like to thank
Archimago for his never-ending quest to bring science into the audio
equation!



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

Gandhi wrote:
> Somewhere in this thread there are suggestions to also compare 16/44.1
> and 24/96.

The issue with that is that it is even harder to make that test
"non-cheatable". One approach I tried was to use material that doesn't
contain much HF energy (so that anything beyond 22 kHz drowns in
noise/dither anyway), such as choral music/pure human voices. That was
of course criticized because "of course you don't get any difference
with material like that".

> That would certainly be interesting, but an alternative would be to
> brush up on the 2007 AES paper "Audibility of a CD-Standard A/DA/A Loop
> Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback". It never gets old.

Ah, but that would require faith in peer-reviewed research :)

> And while I have your attention (or perhaps not), I'd like to thank
> Archimago for his never-ending quest to bring science into the audio
> equation!



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Gandhi]

Julf wrote:
> Ah, but that would require faith in peer-reviewed research :)

Silly me. Why would anyone want to trust the principle that makes it
possible to evaluate medical drugs and build functioning rockets and
nuclear powerplants. Granted these systems are not failproof - none are
- but if audiophools with their magical thinking were responsible for
these undertakings, I'd build myself a personal bomb shelter and stay
down there for the rest of my days. Which, by the way, would be around
42. Then the concrete, whose thickness only would had been determined
with sighted listening tests, would cave in. :-)



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

Gandhi wrote:
> Silly me. Why would anyone want to trust the principle that makes it
> possible to evaluate medical drugs and build functioning rockets and
> nuclear powerplants.

Not only that, but also used to develop all the technologies (starting
with the transistor) that make audio systems possible. Oh, no, I must be
mistaken, I forgot that audio systems are special and are designed by
audiophile voodoo priests who throw hand-selected audiophile components
in the air, watch how they land, listen to the result, and pick the
subjectively most pleasing arrangement.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Gandhi]

Julf wrote:
> I forgot that audio systems are special

Well, the audio system is kinda special since it consists not only of
the physical properties of the audio hardware and the world in it's
close vicinity, but also of the preconceptions and the auditory
perception of the human mind, with all of it's shortcomings.

Placebo is well known, but could somebody perhaps recommend some good
research regarding flaws in auditory perception?

And has anyone seen classes outside the university world, where they
teach the principles of the scientific method? They could perhaps
advance the world a bit. I have a strong feeling that science nowadays
has advanced so far, that it's almost impossible to understand or even
believe how far it's come and how much knowledge there actually is, if
you don't happen to be a specialist in that particular field. It was
easier when mechanics was a novelty, you could just open the cover and
see what was spinning inside.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

Gandhi wrote:
> Placebo is well known, but could somebody perhaps recommend some good
> research regarding flaws in auditory perception?

There is of course quite a lot of psychoacoustic research published, but
Oliver Sacks has done a pretty good job of popularising some of the
stuff in "Musicophilia: Tales of Music and the Brain".

> And has anyone seen classes outside the university world, where they
> teach the principles of the scientific method?

I am very glad the International Baccalaureate diploma programme
contains a mandatory Theory of Knowledge course. Not university, but
clearly "preparing for university", so not sure it counts.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Gandhi]

Julf wrote:
> There is of course quite a lot of psychoacoustic research published, but
> Oliver Sacks has done a pretty good job of popularising some of the
> stuff in "Musicophilia: Tales of Music and the Brain".

Thanks, I'll see if I can get hold of a copy of that.

Julf wrote:
> I am very glad the International Baccalaureate diploma programme
> contains a mandatory Theory of Knowledge course. Not university, but
> clearly "preparing for university", so not sure it counts.

Great, perhaps the world is a better place than I thought. All I'd wish
for is something that most people would find in their mandatory
education, preferably in the earlier years. It doesn't have to be much.
I had to get a little insight at the uni, but it'd would be very
interesting to expand upon.

Where I live there's nowadays a university programme called Fashion
Studies. You can actually get a PhD in that. I'm not quite sure what to
think of it, I don't really know what is being taught. But I remember it
was quite controversial when it started a few years ago.

@garym
Voting? Don't get me started...

@Mnyb
I have a surprisingly big amount of (former) collegues, who believe in
crystal healing, astrology and such, and we all work in applied
matematical statistics. Go figure.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Gandhi]

Gandhi wrote:
> I have a surprisingly big amount of (former) collegues, who believe in
> crystal healing, astrology and such, and we all work in applied
> mathematical statistics.

You people might find it strange that quite a few of my collegues are
into New Age stuff. But you really have no idea just how strange. Let me
explain. My collegues have quite possibly the sharpest and most
skeptical minds of our time. You don’t believe me? Please find below the
transcribt from one of our coffee breaks, a week ago. (Yes, we do
that.)

A: What a splendid weather we had yesterday!
B: That's rather a bold statement. How can you be so sure?
C: Please define the geographical area and the exact time frame in
question.
D: How do you define "splendid"?
E: How do you define "weather"?
F: How do you two define "define"?
A: Ah, I took the liberty of quickly writing up a paper. <Hands out
papers.> For simplicity, I put most of the corollaries in appendix C,
all of the simulation results in appendix G and, as usual, the graphs in
appendix K.
B-F: <Skeptical mumbling.>
A: I suggest we meet at the next coffee break and discuss this more
thorougly.
B: Why do you call it "coffee break"? I'm having tea.
C: But you had coffee yesterday.
D-F: <Mumbling and turning of pages in yesterday's transcribt.>
D: Yes...
E: ...coffee...
F: ...yesterday.
A: Point taken. Perhaps it would be possible to reconvene at a later
time of your choosing, to discuss the validity of my opening statement,
should so occur.
B-F: <Skeptical mumbling.>
A: Anyway, I’d better get back to my office. Perhaps someone could point
me in the right direction?
B-F: <Outraged mumbling. Furious turning of pages in last month’s
transcribts.>
C: How could we possibly know with certainty where your office is
located?
B-F: <Distinctly aggressive mumbling.>
C: And by the way, are you, by any chance, wearing my glasses?
A: Please. You’ll have to be more specific. Are you referring to the
ones on my forehead, on my nose or in my hands?
C: Well, all seven pairs.
B: That’s rather a bold statement. How can you be so sure?
D: How do you define “rather”?

Here endeth the transcribt, as the transcriber had a nervous break-down.
Presumably. She hasn’t gotten an official diagnose yet. She’s still
laying on the floor. Twitching.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Archimago]

Julf wrote:
> There is of course quite a lot of psychoacoustic research published, but
> Oliver Sacks has done a pretty good job of popularising some of the
> stuff in "Musicophilia: Tales of Music and the Brain".
>
>
>
> I am very glad the International Baccalaureate diploma programme
> contains a mandatory Theory of Knowledge course. Not university, but
> clearly "preparing for university", so not sure it counts.

Indeed Julf. The Theory of Knowledge class was one of my favourites when
I did IB in high school back in the late 80's! (Diploma program with
Extended Essay and all...)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> Indeed Julf. The Theory of Knowledge class was one of my favourites when
> I did IB in high school back in the late 80's! (Diploma program with
> Extended Essay and all...)

Glad to hear! My wife is a teacher and IB coordinator, and used to do
the ToK...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[garym]

Gandhi wrote:
> And has anyone seen classes outside the university world, where they
> teach the principles of the scientific method? They could perhaps
> advance the world a bit.

Can't point to any other than the IB program julf mentioned. But your
comment made me think that we should probably require taking (and
passing) a class in the scientific method as a minimum criteria for
allowing one to vote here in the US. :p



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Streaming - Spotify
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[Mnyb]

garym wrote:
> Can't point to any other than the IB program julf mentioned. But your
> comment made me think that we should probably require taking (and
> passing) a class in the scientific method as a minimum criteria for
> allowing one to vote here in the US. :p

+1 and everywhere else , but U.S has the powerfull combo of money and
ignorance .......

Never the less it always amazes me that so few actually understnds their
own education . People that have had classes in natarul history science
and biology still swims with dolphins or buy crystal therapy .

I expand Gary's idea to include use of resources . You can only use
stuff that fits your world-view people who thinks the earth is 6000
years old etc can't have electricity or computers or anything more
advanced than a rock . None of these things would exist if their beliefs
where true so they wont miss anything ? or :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[garym]

Mnyb wrote:
> +1 and everywhere else , but U.S has the powerfull combo of money and
> ignorance .......
>
> Never the less it always amazes me that so few actually understnds their
> own education . People that have had classes in natarul history science
> and biology still swims with dolphins or buy crystal therapy .
>
> I expand Gary's idea to include use of resources . You can only use
> stuff that fits your world-view people who thinks the earth is 6000
> years old etc can't have electricity or computers or anything more
> advanced than a rock . None of these things would exist if their beliefs
> where true so they wont miss anything ? or :)

great idea. If you want to be ignorant, you must live within the
boundaries of your ignorance. You don't believe in science and
engineering? No cell phone or TV for you.



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Streaming - Spotify
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Gandhi]

Mnyb wrote:
> I expand Gary's idea to include use of resources . You can only use
> stuff that fits your world-view people who thinks the earth is 6000
> years old etc can't have electricity or computers or anything more
> advanced than a rock . None of these things would exist if their beliefs
> where true so they wont miss anything ? or :)

A truly inspiring idea!

I guess I'll have to throw away all of my fashonable clothes, then.
(Well, at least they were fashionable when I bought them ages ago.)



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101386

[ralphpnj]

garym wrote:
> Can't point to any other than the IB program julf mentioned. But your
> comment made me think that we should probably require taking (and
> passing) a class in the scientific method as a minimum criteria for
> allowing one to vote here in the US. :p

Voting?!?! How about requiring this for anyone/everyone holding an
elected office.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mnyb]

Gandhi wrote:
> Silly me. Why would anyone want to trust the principle that makes it
> possible to evaluate medical drugs and build functioning rockets and
> nuclear powerplants. Granted these systems are not failproof - none are
> - but if audiophools with their magical thinking were responsible for
> these undertakings, I'd build myself a personal bomb shelter and stay
> down there for the rest of my days. Which, by the way, would be around
> 42. Then the concrete, whose thickness only would had been determined
> with sighted listening tests, would cave in. :-)

Ha made my lazy afternoon :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Peter Galbavy]

Gandhi wrote:
> Somewhere in this thread there are suggestions to also compare 16/44.1
> and 24/96. That would certainly be interesting, but an alternative would
> be to brush up on the 2007 AES paper "Audibility of a CD-Standard A/DA/A
> Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback". It never gets old.
>
> www.drewdaniels.com/audible.pdf
>

Never seen this before, it's wonderful.

In a similar vein, for those who claim "analogue" FM radio is superior
to nasty digital DAB and online streaming, point them at the story of
the BBC and PCM/NICAM from the 60s

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/BBC/PCMandNICAM/History.html

That never gets old either.


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[Gandhi]

Peter Galbavy wrote:
> In a similar vein, for those who claim "analogue" FM radio is superior
> to nasty digital DAB and online streaming, point them at the story of
> the BBC and PCM/NICAM from the 60s.

Ah, the brave pioneers. Gawwd, they were hard core and ingenious. Well,
now I know that nothing sounds so analog as digital!

It's also a perfect example of The Power of Science.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
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[Mnyb]

Peter Galbavy wrote:
> Never seen this before, it's wonderful.
>
> In a similar vein, for those who claim "analogue" FM radio is superior
> to nasty digital DAB and online streaming, point them at the story of
> the BBC and PCM/NICAM from the 60s
>
> http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/BBC/PCMandNICAM/History.html
>
> That never gets old either.

Excellent history lesson , wonder how the radio links where done where i
Live . Maybe I'll ask around when i meet the right guys (including my
old man ) .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[marflao]

Well.....I will "out" myself....I did the test and....didnŽt hear a
difference.

I didnŽd A/B'ing intantaneously but rather "just" played the whole
"album", song after song, from my NAS=> Touch => DAC => Integrated =>
LS.

So does that make me an non-believer? Guess not.
I assume there will be people out there who can hear some differences.
Probably they are i) more experienced in "dedicated" listening (because
they know where they should listen to and know how this or that
instrument should sound like) or ii) have much better
high-end-audiophile-equipment or have iii) a better hearing capability.

Or maybe a mixture of all above :-)

So in the end....IŽm looking forward to the findings.

@Archimago: thanks for the test. Really enjoyed it and keep on doing the
eye/(ear)-opener stuff :-)

Damn...but I would really like to know if someone really could hear the
difference by just playing song after song.


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[Julf]

marflao wrote:
> So does that make me a non-believer? Guess not.

Just out of curiosity, what would it take?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

Julf wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, what would it take?

You can do repeated tests at home with varius material . In my case the
tenth time you see the pattern .

Besides the physics off it . You are the limit for Frequncy response .
And equipment background noise and again you limits the dynamics .

I tried a thingat home i played a -112dB midrange (minus ,very quiet )
signal at full volume in my hifi I could hear it over ambient noise with
some electronic noise when being very close to a speaker .
The signal was not audible from my listening position ,again with the
volume at 100% on the hifi something I never do in reality .
And my hif is quiet I dont hear any amp noise sitting in the listening
position , I can haer when records start due to increased noise .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[marflao]

Julf wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, what would it take?

Hi Julf,

what I meant is that even I heard no difference based on the way I
tested it I do respect others findings that there is/might be a
difference between the files. Just from sonic point of view.


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[Julf]

marflao wrote:
> what I meant is that even I heard no difference based on the way I
> tested it I do respect others findings that there is/might be a
> difference between the files. Just from sonic point of view.

Fair enough! I am just curious about what it would take, in general, to
convince the "hi-res believers" - but I am afraid not even hundreds of
tests like the one archimago is running would do it.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Julf wrote:
> Fair enough! I am just curious about what it would take, in general, to
> convince the "hi-res believers" - but I am afraid not even hundreds of
> tests like the one archimago is running would do it.

I think it's time to make a distinction between normal audiophiles who
are "hi-res believers" and industry insiders who are "hi-res promoters".
For me the biggest difference between the two is that industry insiders
who are "hi-res promoters" will never try even one double blind test nor
will they ever admit that there is no sonic difference between the files
- NEVER. And as long there is "someone" who claims to hear a difference,
just as there is someone who claims to be able to hear pico second
jitter then audiophiles will always believe that there is a difference:

marflao wrote:
> I assume there will be people out there who can hear some differences.
> Probably they are i) more experienced in "dedicated" listening (because
> they know where they should listen to and know how this or that
> instrument should sound like) or ii) have much better
> high-end-audiophile-equipment or have iii) a better hearing capability.

Remember in the world of audiophiles, if YOU can't hear a difference
then it MUST be YOUR fault.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[marflao]

ralphpnj wrote:
> I think it's time to make a distinction between normal audiophiles who
> are "hi-res believers" and industry insiders who are "hi-res promoters".
> For me the biggest difference between the two is that industry insiders
> who are "hi-res promoters" will never try even one double blind test nor
> will they ever admit that there is no sonic difference between the files
> - NEVER. And as long there is "someone" who claims to hear a difference,
> just as there is someone who claims to be able to hear pico second
> jitter then audiophiles will always believe that there is a difference:
>
>
>
> Remember in the world of audiophiles, if YOU can't hear a difference
> then it MUST be YOUR fault.

lol


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[ralphpnj]

marflao wrote:
> lol

Wow! I really thought that my quoting you would just get you mad so
thank you for taking it in stride.

Now I'm wondering if you are laughing at my seemingly inflexible
attitude in that it may appear that I believe that almost everyone in
the high end audio business is a con artist of one sort or another. Well
I really don't believe that except for all the writers and editors of
all the high end audio magazines (and most cable manufacturers) :)

Let's put it this way. One takes Archimago's test and one cannot hear a
difference. No it doesn't absolutely mean that there is no sonic
difference, what it means it that there is no sonic difference that one
can hear with one's audio equipment under normal playback conditions.
Now it is that little caveat, i.e. there is no sonic difference that one
can hear with one's audio equipment under normal playback conditions,
which leads many audiophiles into the never ending pursuit of "perfect
sound", a fool's errant if there was one.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[marflao]

ralphpnj wrote:
> I think it's time to make a distinction between normal audiophiles who
> are "hi-res believers" and industry insiders who are "hi-res promoters".
> For me the biggest difference between the two is that industry insiders
> who are "hi-res promoters" will never try even one double blind test nor
> will they ever admit that there is no sonic difference between the files
> - NEVER. And as long there is "someone" who claims to hear a difference,
> just as there is someone who claims to be able to hear pico second
> jitter then audiophiles will always believe that there is a difference:
>
>
>
> Remember in the world of audiophiles, if YOU can't hear a difference
> then it MUST be YOUR fault.

ralphpnj wrote:
> Wow! I really thought that my quoting you would just get you mad so
> thank you for taking it in stride.
>
> Now I'm wondering if you are laughing at my seemingly inflexible
> attitude in that it may appear that I believe that almost everyone in
> the high end audio business is a con artist of one sort or another. Well
> I really don't believe that except for all the writers and editors of
> all the high end audio magazines (and most cable manufacturers) :)
>
> Let's put it this way. One takes Archimago's test and one cannot hear a
> difference. No it doesn't absolutely mean that there is no sonic
> difference, what it means it that there is no sonic difference that one
> can hear with one's audio equipment under normal playback conditions.
> Now it is that little caveat, i.e. there is no sonic difference that one
> can hear with one's audio equipment under normal playback conditions,
> which leads many audiophiles into the never ending pursuit of "perfect
> sound", a fool's errant if there was one.


Well...was it really intended to get me mad?
At least I didn't take it that way.

But I guess you can mark me as a "non cable" believer ;-)
I went to a local hifi store a couple months ago for some speaker cables
and the sales guy was so kind to lent me 4 pair of cable: 2 pair of
Kimber (a bi-wired & a single wired), MIT and HMS. DonŽt nail which one
they were in detail. Kimber was a 4PR and 8PR or 8VS) the other two I
donŽt recall.

Long story short: I connected the 2 Kimber as well as the HMS and
neither did I nor my son (13yrs) and my better hear a difference to the
old cable (Chord Carnival Silverscreen) I had at that time. So I didnŽt
check the 4th cable anymore.

My personal conclusion: IŽm definitely cured in regards to high praised
fancy cables. No "hunt" for that needed. :-)
But as I said before ...my hearing capabilities, my "gear".

Other people, other experiences ...IŽm fine with that.


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[ralphpnj]

marflao wrote:
> Well...was it really intended to get me mad?
> At least I didn't take it that way.
> ...
>
> Other people, other experiences ...IŽm fine with that.

No I did intend for my post to upset you and I'm glad that it did not.

I am also fine with "Other people, other experiences" provided that:

1) the person is not part of the high end audio industry, e.g. a writer
for a high end audio magazine or someone selling a product.

2) the person is not trying to justify their recent purchase, e.g.
someone who just spent $1,000 for a high end USB cable or $35 for a high
resolution download of a 1960 recording is going to "hear" a difference
regardless of what they actually hear.

In both of the above case neither person is ever going to do a double
blind test, the former because the DBT might put them out of job and the
latter because a DBT might show them how much money they just wasted.
(Notice the use of the word "might".)

Other than that I'm fine with "Other people, other experiences".



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[marflao]

ralphpnj wrote:
> No I did intend for my post to upset you and I'm glad that it did not.
>
> I am also fine with "Other people, other experiences" provided that:
>
> 1) the person is not part of the high end audio industry, e.g. a writer
> for a high end audio magazine or someone selling a product.
>
> 2) the person is not trying to justify their recent purchase, e.g.
> someone who just spent $1,000 for a high end USB cable or $35 for a high
> resolution download of a 1960 recording is going to "hear" a difference
> regardless of what they actually hear.
>
> In both of the above case neither person is ever going to do a double
> blind test, the former because the DBT might put them out of job and the
> latter because a DBT might show them how much money they just wasted.
> (Notice the use of the word "might".)
>
> Other than that I'm fine with "Other people, other experiences".

Yep...will second this.

Although I must admit that I like some writers I cannot recall that any
of them had torn down a reviewed device in pieces. Hmmm....and the
answer should be clear because he might review another one from the same
company in the future and will get paid again. Or because the company
has ads on his web page ;-)

And youŽre second point is one which amazes me every time again.
DonŽt get it if people buy powercords for 12500 € (see
http://www.audiophile-musik.de/equipment.php).
But hey....at least you have a cord with a cable jacket made in Japan,
hand weaved and silky. THAT makes the real difference :-)

Cheers


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[ralphpnj]

marflao wrote:
> Yep...will second this.
>
> Although I must admit that I like some writers I cannot recall that any
> of them had torn down a reviewed device in pieces. Hmmm....and the
> answer should be clear because he might review another one from the same
> company in the future and will get paid again. Or because the company
> has ads on his web page ;-)
>
> And youŽre second point is one which amazes me every time again.
> DonŽt get it if people buy powercords for 12500 € (see
> http://www.audiophile-musik.de/equipment.php).
> But hey....at least you have a cord with a cable jacket made in Japan,
> hand weaved and silky. THAT makes the real difference :-)
>
> Cheers

In the case of the audiophile reviewer it may not matter whether or not
the manufacturer of the equipment under review is an advertiser but it
does matter for the reviewer to be firmly in the role of unquestioning
enabler and to present a willingness to not probe too deeply into
whether or not the product under actually does sound different. I would
venture a guess that should one want to publish a magazine or web site
that conducts double blind tests along with extensive measurements of
audio equipment then one would have to buy just about every piece of
equipment under review since very few, if any, high end audio
manufacturers are going to "loan" your publication any of their
equipment. So if I win a multimillion dollar lottery then maybe I can
"loan" Archimago lots fancy equipment to test, which he can then "buy"
at a greatly reduced price.

A similar thing happens all the time with technology reviews - no one
dares badmouth Apple products for fear of getting thrown off the gravy
train and then not getting the latest iPhone/iPad for review. Remember
when Windows 8 was first released and ALL the big tech review sites were
calling it the greatest thing since sliced bread only to have to eat
their worthless words once the buying public voted with their pocket
books and declared Windows 8 to be pretty much a complete disaster.

I'm afraid that in the 21st century truth has become a thing of the far
distant past.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[cliveb]

Julf wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, what would it take?
What it took for me to be "cured" of my audiophilia was that I did a
level-matched but sighted comparison of two DACs and heard a (slight)
difference, but when I repeated the test blind, scored precisely 50%.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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[Julf]

> So in the end....IŽm looking forward to the findings.

@Archimago: have you thought about analyzing the statistical
significance of the results? What conclusion can be drawn, if, let's
say, 62% of the responses show a preference for the "real" 24-bit
tracks?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Archimago]

Julf wrote:
> @Archimago: have you thought about analyzing the statistical
> significance of the results? What conclusion can be drawn, if, let's
> say, 62% of the responses show a preference for the "real" 24-bit
> tracks?

Yes. I'll see about subjecting the data to stats analysis of
significance. As of today, I've got >50 responses and hope to achieve at
least 150 like I did with the MP3 vs. FLAC test last year by the end of
it. It'll be interesting also to have a look at:
1. Which tune was easier to hear a difference in.
2. Whether more expensive gear resulted in more accurate detection.
3. Whether age was a factor (might be hard unless I have enough data to
normalize the gear quality).
4. Whether those who felt *confident* that they got it right actually
did! Perhaps a measure of human ability to self-evaluate.

I'll put more thought into other questions that could be "mined" based
on the data.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> Yes. I'll see about subjecting the data to stats analysis of
> significance. As of today, I've got >50 responses and hope to achieve at
> least 150 like I did with the MP3 vs. FLAC test last year by the end of
> it.

Great! Really looking forward to the results!



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Archimago]

marflao wrote:
> Well.....I will "out" myself....I did the test and....didnŽt hear a
> difference.
>
> I didnŽd A/B'ing instantaneously but rather "just" played the whole
> "album", song after song, from my NAS=> Touch => DAC => Integrated =>
> LS.
>
> So does that make me a non-believer? Guess not.
> I assume there will be people out there who can hear some differences.
> Probably they are i) more experienced in "dedicated" listening (because
> they know where they should listen to and know how this or that
> instrument should sound like) or ii) have much better
> high-end-audiophile-equipment or have iii) a better hearing capability.
>
> Or maybe a mixture of all above :-)
>
> So in the end....IŽm looking forward to the findings.
>
> @Archimago: thanks for the test. Really enjoyed it and keep on doing the
> eye/(ear)-opener stuff :-)
>
> Damn...but I would really like to know if someone really could hear the
> difference by just playing song after song.


Thanks for taking the test! No worries "outing" yourself... I'll tell
you a little secret - you're not the only one admitting to this on the
survey :)

Listening to one track then the other is a natural way to evaluate. It
might not be as sensitive to instantaneous A/B switching but it does
reflect how we normally listen to music; one track at a time and whether
we subjectively experience a difference.

Yes, indeed I'm seeing folks on the survey using amazing equipment -
Chord DAC, Resonessence DAC, PASS amps, McIntosh, >$50K systems, etc...
But as you noted, all this equipment also has to be paired to good
ears... We'll see how this all plays out once the test concludes.

All the best...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[marflao]

Archimago wrote:
> Thanks for taking the test! No worries "outing" yourself... I'll tell
> you a little secret - you're not the only one admitting to this on the
> survey :)
>
>

Puuuuuh.... I'm relieved to hear that :-)
Looking forward to the evaluation - especially the speaker /headphone
"hit" findings.

Cheers.




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[get.amped]

I would consider participating, but my SB3 only does 16/44.1 (48?).
Which, as it turns out, is perfectly adequate since the vast majority of
my listening is FLACs from my ripped CDs. But it may mean that I can't
make any claims of audiophilianess (yes, I just made up that word!).



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.7.3 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
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[Archimago]

get.amped wrote:
> I would consider participating, but my SB3 only does 16/44.1 (48?).
> Which, as it turns out, is perfectly adequate since the vast majority of
> my listening is FLACs from my ripped CDs. But it may mean that I can't
> make any claims of audiophilianess (yes, I just made up that word!).

Actually the SB3 can handle 24-bit although downsampled to 48kHz as you
noted.

Even the built-in analogue output is capable of >16-bits:
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/measurements-slim-devices-logitech.html



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[P Nelson]

LMS will convert the source to a format that your sb3, touch, radio etc
will be able to play. How do I verify that LMS is not converting the
Flac file for my Touch? I have never fully understood the settings on
that advanced options screen.

This issue could throw off the results if that settings screen is not
set right.


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[Mnyb]

P Nelson wrote:
> LMS will convert the source to a format that your sb3, touch, radio etc
> will be able to play. How do I verify that LMS is not converting the
> Flac file for my Touch? I have never fully understood the settings on
> that advanced options screen.
>
> This issue could throw off the results if that settings screen is not
> set right.

It tells in the context menu of the track (more info ) if it is
transcoded , besides Touch should do 24/96 fine and FLAC to .

Also if the SoX or some other helper programs starts then you now it's
transcoding .

However it could also transcode without any loss of fidelity . Some have
their servers set up to convert FLAC to PCM (WAV) but this will again be
at 24/96 and lossles .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Archimago]

marflao wrote:
> Hi Archimago,
>
> I would really like to know if those users who couldnŽt hear a
> difference would still buy HD formats or if they would be fine with
> Redbook now (or even less). ;-)
>
> My personal feeling is it wonŽt have a great impact on their buying
> behaviour and most of them will "go" for the HD format in case they
> already did. But who knows maybe some of them say Redbook is now "good
> enough for me".
>
> Maybe for future surveys of similar tests you could include some
> questions if the user behaviour will change (or wonŽt change) based on
> their own experience with the test.
>
> Cheers.

An important and practical question.

My feeling is that this is a marketplace and ultimately $$$ speaks more
than words. In good times, sure, why not splurge on the 24-bit hi-res
purchase? After all, even if you can't hear the difference, we can
conceptualize that the (presumably well recorded) 24-bit version has
more resolution and that could be worth something I suppose - perhaps
the peace of mind that this is *the last* version you're ever going to
buy! (This I think is what Pono is trying to appeal to recently.)

However, for those not obsessive-compulsive enough (ie. vast majority of
music lovers) or during times where you just can't splurge on a 24-bit
luxury, it just won't sell unless the price is right! Would you pay $5,
$10, $15 more for something that can be objectively better from the 17th
bit onwards but potentially never hear the difference at normal
listening levels?

The industry could just end up with a product nobody will pay money for
-unless it's the default resolution-... I see this as a very strong
possibility as the outcome. Especially because this is a download
product which let's be honest can and will be pirated literally within
hours of the first purchase.

Yeah, maybe the respondents can be asked about behavioural change. My
hope is that people will just give it a try so they can experience it
for themselves and not be dependent on what folks write in magazines and
on-line articles from the usual audiophile suspects.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[marflao]

Hi Archimago,

I would really like to know if those users who couldnŽt hear a
difference would still buy HD formats or if they would be fine with
Redbook (pr even less). ;-)

My personal feeling is it wonŽt have a great impact on their buying
behaviour and most of them will "go" for the HD format in case they
already did. But who knows maybe some of thme say Redbook is now "good
enough for me".

Maybe for future surveys of similar tests you could include some
questions if the user behaviour will change (or wonŽt change) based on
their own experience with the test.

Cheers.


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[Mnyb]

I'll modified my behaviur a couple of years back to buy 24/96 if avaible
call it "slush margin" but i'll never go for 24/192 or DSD if it's not
the only option .

Theoretically my fully digital system should benefit from 24/96 material
it does some eq room compensation and volume in the digital domain . And
the upsampling to 96k is not entriely transparant in all cases i *think*
? have not dBt enough to really say .

However in practice it's not there :) I have not yet encounterad a
counter example in my own system...



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Archimago]

get.amped wrote:
> Interesting. I have to confess that I don't really understand all the
> measurements. Somewhat shameful since my father was an acoustical
> engineer (specialized in noise control/silencing for inlet/outlet
> systems). I have yet to read through all your blog postings although I
> enjoyed the ones on the HTPC and whether 16/44 audio is good enough. Any
> suggestions on where to find a layman's guide to the tests/measurements
> you're doing?

Hi Mr. Amped.

Don't know if there is a layman's article on line for all this stuff...
I'm sure searches will get you many articles of stuff like "dynamic
range", "THD", "IMD", "noise floor"; or even the more esoteric stuff
like the upsampling filter types. On a number of the posts I've tried to
include links to articles which should help.

One book I enjoyed was Ethan Winer's "The Audio Expert" which I think is
a good reference and will dispel many audiophile myths. Here's a link to
his page:
http://ethanwiner.com/book.htm

Good basic information which goes into more detail than most people
would likely care to know.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[get.amped]

Archimago wrote:
> Hi Mr. Amped.
>
> Don't know if there is a layman's article on line for all this stuff...
> I'm sure searches will get you many articles of stuff like "dynamic
> range", "THD", "IMD", "noise floor"; or even the more esoteric stuff
> like the upsampling filter types. On a number of the posts I've tried to
> include links to articles which should help.
>
> One book I enjoyed was Ethan Winer's "The Audio Expert" which I think is
> a good reference and will dispel many audiophile myths. Here's a link to
> his page:
> http://ethanwiner.com/book.htm
>
> Good basic information which goes into more detail than most people
> would likely care to know.

Thanks. I do some digging around and see what pops up.



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.7.3 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
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[marflao]

...well at least *they* hear the difference :-)

http://www.audiostream.com/content/hd-downloads-blind-test-almost

"Case closed!"


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[get.amped]

Archimago wrote:
> Actually the SB3 can handle 24-bit although downsampled to 48kHz as you
> noted.
>
> Even the built-in analogue output is capable of >16-bits:
> http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/measurements-slim-devices-logitech.html

Interesting. I have to confess that I don't really understand all the
measurements. Somewhat shameful since my father was an acoustical
engineer (specialized in noise control/silencing for inlet/outlet
systems). I have yet to read through all your blog postings although I
enjoyed the ones on the HTPC and whether 16/44 audio is good enough. Any
suggestions on where to find a layman's guide to the tests/measurements
you're doing?



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.7.3 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
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[Mnyb]

Julf wrote:
> Interesting - that will test how good your "masking" is - if one of them
> figures out a way to tell the samples apart, they will all use that
> instead of actually listening (this based on a similar listening test I
> did over at CA at one point, that had to be stopped prematurely because
> one of the members spotted a way to tell the samples apart and posted it
> - that changes pretty much all the responses from that point on).

That is not cool :( retards , but such a thing could be usefull if
arvhimago also tracks when the responses are made.

If the answers change at a certian piont in time you proved something :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphpnj]

Julf wrote:
> You do realize that if your test is successful you will probably be
> banned? :)

Of course he will be banned since now that the owner of the Computer
Audiophile site has gone of a "regular" audiophile like us to an
industry insider he cannot afford to have anything or anyone jeopardize
that status. The biggest difference between regular audiophiles and
industry insiders is that regular audiophiles have to pay for their
audio equipment whereas insiders get audio equipment on "loan" from the
manufacturers.

Nothing turns a revolutionary into a member of the old guard faster than
a nice fat bribe. So watch out Archimago if this test of yours picks up
some traction you'll soon find yourself being treated like an insider
and showered with all kinds of offers. With that in mind I'd like to
place an order for a "loan" of the latest $50,000 Krell DAC :)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Julf]

Mnyb wrote:
> or do people turn up the reverbtails with headphones or creep closer to
> their speaker and turn up or what ?

Even then they probably won't hear a difference - I guess that's why
they are resorting to null tests and other technotrickery...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

Julf wrote:
> Even then they probably won't hear a difference - I guess that's why
> they are resorting to null tests and other technotrickery...

But whats the point :) i don&#8217;t get their mindset .

Archimagos initial question was can *YOU* -HEAR- the difference .Point
is to get a real experience , either you hear it or you don&#8217;t you
might learn something or not .
Now many audiophiles try this for the first time themselves and maybe
get something from it .
Personally I dont care if the stats come out slightly skewed (if they
are very skewed its not good ) if many audiophiles gets this hands on
experience that&#8217;s the real win , many have never tried their
assumptions against a blind test before.
They migth have tried with CD vs DVDA/SACD or other configurations where
many factors other than the format inject differences and skews the
comparison .

The question is *not* can you somehow figure out whats whats with any
means possible ?

what have you achieved if you somehow beat the test with technotrickery
, then you have not actually done the test .

this pinkfish forum are there many in the trade around who might have a
vested interest in "proving" things one way or another ?
(I don&#8217;t expect people that sells 1000$ power cords to people with
spouses and kids to have very high moral standards . So they likely
cheat if they can)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Julf]

Mnyb wrote:
> But whats the point :) i don’t get their mindset .

"being right is what counts" :)

> this pinkfish forum are there many in the trade around who might have a
> vested interest in "proving" things one way or another ?
> (I don’t expect people that sells 1000$ power cords to people with
> spouses and kids to have very high moral standards . So they likely
> cheat if they can)

PF is actually one of the more balanced forums, but you have a fair bit
of people from the trade, and yes, they do have a vested interest.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Pascal Hibon]

Mnyb wrote:
> But whats the point :) i don’t get their mindset .
>
>

Most audiofools are very scared of blind tests because such test could
reveal the real truth.
And they don't want to hear the truth; they only want to hear that they
are right.
It's a pity that such people need to resort to all sort of trickery
instead of just take the test honestly. The test is completely
anonymous, so no one will ever know what they have answered in the test.



M-DAC, Cambridge Audio Azur 840E, Focal MP1200, Focal Electra 1028 Be
1 x SB3, 1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio and 2 x SB Touch - all wireless
1 x Wandboard Dual behind the bedroom ceiling
1 x Wandboard Dual for 'msqueeze' (http://www.msqueeze.co.nf/index.html)
project
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.8.0.
iPeng 7 on iPhone.
SqueezePad & iPeng 7 on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[Archimago]

adamdea wrote:
> I have posted a link to this test (mistakenly suggesting that it is
> 16/44 vs 24/96 but i hope to be able to correct that) on Pinkfish.
> It has been suggested on that site by someone that the two files do not
> null to the expected level. *Archimago could you possibly check*. As a
> matter of interest what program did you use for the downconversion?

Hi Adam.

As others have indicated, it's supposed to be a listening test and I
wonder if these members did the null subtraction analysis before or
after filling out the survey response?

There could be reasons why they're not seeing what they expect but I'm
not sure we should be talking about this at this time... I'll certainly
reveal all the technical details once the test is done including
settings and program used for conversion and dithering.

If this is the kind of discussion going on for a simple 24-bit vs.
16-bit test; could you imagine how impossible it would be to do a 44kHz
vs. 96kHz test! :mad:

Anecdotally, the other day I was reading the recent Stereophile magazine
and I came across the HDTracks ad that said "You will hear the
difference" (page 100). Firm message - as if it's that simple! Although
they refer to "up to 24/192" (arguable need for 192kHz of course), it's
the kind of thing I hope this test will allow people to experience and
(as appropriate), question.

Good gradual accumulation of data I'm seeing. Hopefully people will stay
honest and "use their ears".



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[RonM]

Archimago wrote:
>
> Yup CD vs. high-res would be fantastic if there were only a way to
> ensure that it was done blindly. I can imaging maybe a Windows/Mac/Linux
> program where you could choose ABX where it would play 24/96 or 16/44
> that's upsampled to 24/96 maybe so the DAC doesn't show the change in
> resolution? The whole thing could be packaged in an executable so it
> isn't tampered with easily?

I don't think the issue is really a self-administered "blind" test.
Anyone can cheat when no one is watching. So a 24/96 vs 16/44 test
would be for those who can genuinely get something from it on their own.
Or, alternately, as a mechanism through which a blind test can be
conducted with others involved (e.g. someone to set up test session,
someone to administer it and someone to take it).

R.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
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[Mnyb]

RonM wrote:
> I don't think the issue is really a self-administered "blind" test.
> Anyone can cheat when no one is watching. So a 24/96 vs 16/44 test
> would be for those who can genuinely get something from it on their own.
> Or, alternately, as a mechanism through which a blind test can be
> conducted with others involved (e.g. someone to set up test session,
> someone to administer it and someone to take it).
>
> R.

Yeah i diy'd some of my own 16/44.1 vs 24/96 tests . if you decide not
to cheat you can set one up for yourself and it's educating . The
quality is not as good as a very careful test thou .

Yeas i think the experience of trying is the real value of the tests a
lot of people have tried by now .

If one also thinks for a while . The selection of recordings used by
Archimago (and I did similar things for my own tests ) are recordings
that technically is at the edge they may well have content that's beyond
16/44.1 .

Most recordings don’t including most sold as hirez , they can be
completely encoded by 16/44.1 without any information loss .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[jimbobvfr400]

If they accept they are getting a better master as a result of buying
the HD format then that's potentially a valid reason to buy them.

In a similar way I still use flac even though I couldn't tell flac and
good mp3 apart in the last test because there are other advantages

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk




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[darrenyeats]

It's always worth checking DR Database, just in case, when considering a
high res download, to see if there is any evidence the master is
different. (Obviously DR isn't the whole story but it's an indicator at
least.) Sometimes, it is.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
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[Mnyb]

jimbobvfr400 wrote:
> If they accept they are getting a better master as a result of buying
> the HD format then that's potentially a valid reason to buy them.
>
> In a similar way I still use flac even though I couldn't tell flac and
> good mp3 apart in the last test because there are other advantages
>
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Yes some of the hirez releases are of better masters .

But one point I yet have to see investigated is if the different
variettes of download from say HD-tracks *really* is the same thing ?

But in this case excessive paranoia would work for them making you buy
the most hirez (and expensive one ) and downconvert it yourself :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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