[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bootleg Recordings: Soundboard versus Audience

[ralphpnj]

The internet has made the collecting of bootleg recordings much easier
than ever and over the years I have up many very good recordings with
many of these recordings often rivaling in sound quality officially
released live recordings. For the most part I tend to stick with what
are called "soundboard" and "FM" recordings, which are basically made
from the direct microphone and instrument feeds going to the soundboard
and mixed on the fly. The other two main types of bootlegs are audience
recordings, which are made by audience members, either illegally or with
the full permission of the artists and matrix recordings, which are mix
of a soundboard recording with an audience recording.

What I've noticed is that for the most part soundboard and FM recordings
usually sound better than even the best audience recordings (and there
are many excellent sounding audience recordings available). So my
question is this: when one is at a concert the sound is often quite good
- well balanced and crystal clear with nice high end and good but not
over powering bass, however many audience recordings, even those made
using top quality microphones and equipment located in a prime spot and
with the permission of the artists often sound unbalanced, muffled and
bass heavy. Why is this the case and what is happening to make the sound
captured by the microphone so different from the sound captured by one's
ears?

Hopefully this thread will not lead into a flame war :)



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[arnyk]

Post by ralphpnj
What I've noticed is that for the most part soundboard and FM recordings
usually sound better than even the best audience recordings (and there
are many excellent sounding audience recordings available).

Agreed.

Post by ralphpnj
So my question is this: when one is at a concert the sound is often
quite good - well balanced and crystal clear with nice high end and good
but not over powering bass,

That can be true or not.

Post by ralphpnj
However many audience recordings, even those made using top quality
microphones and equipment located in a prime spot and with the
permission of the artists often sound unbalanced, muffled and bass
heavy. Why is this the case and what is happening to make the sound
captured by the microphone so different from the sound captured by one's
ears?

Underlying this is probably the idea that the ideal location for
microphones and the ideal locations for listeners are the same or at
least similar.

I did live recordings of band and choir festivals professionally for
about 12 years ending just lately, and also ran the SR system in a
medium sized venue (about 500 seats) where I could pretty much do
whatever I wanted to do with mics. I had a surplus of good mics, some of
my own personal choosing. I had up to 24 independent recording
channels.

One conclusion that I came to early on is that the ideal location for
microphones and the ideal locations for listeners are not the same and
not even at least similar. Not even the same zip code!

The ratio of distance to microphones versus listeners was probably on
the order of 3-4 to 1 at the very least. Close micing of instruments and
vocalists (mic-source distances in inches or a small number of feet) can
work in the right context.

No way can you do that from the audience seating area.


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[ralphpnj]

Post by arnyk
Agreed.
That can be true or not.
Underlying this is probably the idea that the ideal location for
microphones and the ideal locations for listeners are the same or at
least similar.
I did live recordings of band and choir festivals professionally for
about 12 years ending just lately, and also ran the SR system in a
medium sized venue (about 500 seats) where I could pretty much do
whatever I wanted to do with mics. I had a surplus of good mics, some of
my own personal choosing. I had up to 24 independent recording
channels.
One conclusion that I came to early on is that the ideal location for
microphones and the ideal locations for listeners are not the same and
not even at least similar. Not even the same zip code!
The ratio of distance to microphones versus listeners was probably on
the order of 3-4 to 1 at the very least. Close micing of instruments and
vocalists (mic-source distances in inches or a small number of feet) can
work in the right context.
No way can you do that from the audience seating area.

Perhaps the reason for this is that a microphone is like an ear but a
good recording is like an ear plus a brain that processes (mixes) the
sound coming from the ear (microphone) to create a more coherent overall
sonic picture.

I do find it interesting that even though many audience recordings are,
as you stated, made from prime listening locations, such as right in
front of the soundboard, these locations are really not the prime
recording locations. Kind of opens up one's eyes to the fact that even
the "purest" of recordings still need lots of technical "processing" in
order for them to sound good when played on even the best audio system.



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[arnyk]

Post by ralphpnj
Perhaps the reason for this is that a microphone is like an ear but a
good recording is like an ear plus a brain that processes (mixes) the
sound coming from the ear (microphone) to create a more coherent overall
sonic picture.

I think that there is no comparison between a microphone and a working
ear+brain combination. Things like the Cocktail Party effect come to
mind.

Post by ralphpnj
I do find it interesting that even though many audience recordings are,
as you stated, made from prime listening locations, such as right in
front of the soundboard, these locations are really not the prime
recording locations. Kind of opens up one's eyes to the fact that even
the "purest" of recordings still need lots of technical "processing" in
order for them to sound good when played on even the best audio system.

Audio as we currently know it is very crude. From a realism standpoint
binaural recording may be about as good as it gets, but nobody has
figured out how in general to make binaural recordings work with
speakers.


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[Julf]

Post by ralphpnj
So my question is this: when one is at a concert the sound is often
quite good - well balanced and crystal clear with nice high end and good
but not over powering bass, however many audience recordings, even those
made using top quality microphones and equipment located in a prime spot
and with the permission of the artists often sound unbalanced, muffled
and bass heavy. Why is this the case and what is happening to make the
sound captured by the microphone so different from the sound captured by
one's ears?

One reason is that our ear-brain combination is very adaptive, and
listening in a live situation gives enough clues to allow us to
compensate for and filter out some of the conflicting sound - something
we can't do once a lot of the clues have been reduced down to one or two
channels of audio.



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fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Julf
One reason is that our ear-brain combination is very adaptive, and
listening in a live situation gives enough clues to allow us to
compensate for and filter out some of the conflicting sound - something
we can't do once a lot of the clues have been reduced down to one or two
channels of audio.

My last post was made before I saw your reply, which goes along similar
lines. I guess the ear/brain combo is like the microphone/mixing board
combo but a simple stereo pair of microphones, like those used by
someone making an audience recording is just the "ear" part of the
combo.



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[DJanGo]

Why is this the case and what is happening to make the sound captured by
the microphone so different from the sound captured by one's ears?

just google the real story behind the very first "Live" Rock Album (or
was it the first ever live Rock double Album)?

Kiss Alive and even more fake than alive, Kiss Alive2.

To the bootlegs i do own some "original" vinyls described as bootlegs
but i didnt hav one good sounding original full Album from Hendrix a
digital bootleg (isnt a bootleg its not limited) (my opinion)



Gruss

Jan
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[usc95]

The only bootlegs I can pretend to have any real knowlege about are U2
recordings and it can be incredible how much the location of the taper
has on the sound of the recording. I was at the show at the Forum in LA
on 5/26 and recorded it myself. I was seated in the upper bowl portion
and my recording came out lacking a little bass but overall ok minus
some clipping that was due to my gain being set too high. There were at
least three other recordings shared on U2torrents from that night with
one from the floor that sounded a little flat and distant, one from
lower bowl that sounded a little bass heavy and one from the front of
the upper bowl that sounded just right. Then you have to hope the taper
doesn't stand next to any crazy screamers or get knocked around while
recording that can happen sometimes. When you couple all of these
factors with the fact that for shows that are sold out you have no
control over what tickets are available and often you have no idea of
how the PA is setup it can be hard to know where to situate yourself to
make a good recording. After trying to record shows myself I am now
really impressed when I hear a really good audience recording. But make
no mistake, an excellent audience recording can really sound good and
can bring as much enjoyment as a soundboard or even pro recording. I
can think of some U2 audience recordings that are just amazing and
compare favorably with any recording from that tour. At the end of it I
am just happy to have a document of my favorite band's concerts
especially ones I have been fortunate to have attended even if the
quality is not perfect.


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[garym]

Interesting discussion. I have many non-commercially released
recordings (many from archive.org, a legal place for obtaining concert
performances). Many of these are Grateful Dead shows. I often find the
best of both worlds is a "matrix" recording where a Soundboard and
Audience tape are merged in some way. I have no idea how this is done,
but some of the folks doing this with Grateful Dead shows are artists in
their own right.



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[dasmueller]

A type of recording not mentioned so far is the pre-FM recording, which
to be honest I do not truly understand.

Many SBD recordings from the late 60's-early 70's that become available
these days are of poor quality due to the deterioration of the recording
tape.

I like garym tend to like matrix recordings when well done. It gives the
clarity of the SBD along w more of a live experience due to some subdued
crowd "noise".

Of course we are straying a bit from the OP question.


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[garym]

Post by dasmueller
A type of recording not mentioned so far is the pre-FM recording, which
to be honest I do not truly understand.

Good question. I always assumed this was from the soundboard "feed"
(maybe with some on the fly mixing) that was being delivered to the
radio station for broadcast on FM radio. So this would be better than a
"post FM" recording, which would have been broadcast and then recorded
over the air on someone's home machine. But I don't really know for
sure.



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[ralphpnj]

Post by garym
Good question. I always assumed this was from the soundboard "feed"
(maybe with some on the fly mixing) that was being delivered to the
radio station for broadcast on FM radio. So this would be better than a
"post FM" recording, which would have been broadcast and then recorded
over the air on someone's home machine. But I don't really know for
sure.

Gary I believe that you are correct and that is my understanding of the
label "pre-FM" in that it was a live recording made for FM broadcast but
the "pre-FM" version is one that is taken from the broadcast source
(either a direct soundboard feed or a tape made from the soundboard)
rather one that was recorded from the actual FM broadcast.

I also have heard several very good sounding matrix recordings.



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[atrocity]

Post by ralphpnj
Gary I believe that you are correct and that is my understanding of the
label "pre-FM" in that it was a live recording made for FM broadcast but
the "pre-FM" version is one that is taken from the broadcast source
(either a direct soundboard feed or a tape made from the soundboard)
rather one that was recorded from the actual FM broadcast.

I have a couple of original King Biscuit Flower Hour reels and consider
them "pre-FM" for exactly the reason you state.

Post by ralphpnj
I also have heard several very good sounding matrix recordings.

There are some interesting multichannel ones out there that place one
source in the front and other in the rear.

One thing that fascinates me about some audience recordings is that they
may not be all that great in a standard objective sense but what they
lack in technical quality they make up for in ambience. I'm in the
middle of Pink Floyd's 1970 show at Pepperland in San Rafael...it's
certainly not a bad recording by any means, but no one will rush to
officially release it. I just love the sound of it, though...well,
maybe not when some genius' baby starts shrieking during "Atom Heart
Mother"...


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[garym]

Post by atrocity
One thing that fascinates me about some audience recordings is that they
may not be all that great in a standard objective sense but what they
lack in technical quality they make up for in ambience..

Agree!



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