[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Last words on PONO...

[Archimago]

I've said my peace. No more Pono talk for me :-).

'http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/01/last-words-on-pono-mastering-analysis.html'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/01/last-words-on-pono-mastering-analysis.html)



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[Wombat]

A while back:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?101133-Pono-Player&p=774927&viewfull=1#post774927
Also i think it is almost a shame to misuse the idea behind
crowd-funding this way.


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[Mnyb]

Mr young cant work magic either ,apparently ?

The elephant in the room is that as a reseller you just dont have
creative control over what masters you get ! the record company’s sends
what they see fit .
Mr Young has control over his own stuff and also apparently used the
best ones he had ,even if they where the same as a decade ago not
everyone has a DVDA player* so it's possible to sell .


)*which reminds me I must repair my DVDA player the powersupply is
broken ,been I while since I heard DVDA discs :) I really loved the
underestimated feature of discrete 6ch uncompressed music . That was the
real deal with SACD or DVDA 2ch of the same master would sound exactly
the same as 16/44.1 or 24/192 but the multichannel was something else .

Can someone really realise the idea about getting the best sounding
masters and then sell them in a download format . historically there was
mobile fidelity and some others for CD's , but they cover such a tiny
part of the music world ?
What about any new music ? yet another version of DSTM would not suffice
.



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[atrocity]

Mnyb wrote:
> I really loved the underestimated feature of discrete 6ch uncompressed
> music . That was the real deal with SACD or DVDA 2ch of the same master
> would sound exactly the same as 16/44.1 or 24/192 but the multichannel
> was something else .

Totally agree. It's the only feature I think is missing from the
Squeeze universe.

By the way, there's been an interesting trickle of old quadraphonic
mixes making it to DVD-A and (especially) SACD lately.


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[Mike Sargent]

atrocity wrote:
> By the way, there's been an interesting trickle of old quadraphonic
> mixes making it to DVD-A and (especially) SACD lately.

More on Blu-Ray than DVD-A (by a long shot). I'm really enjoying High
Fidelity Pure Audio. Many are multi-channel, including some you wouldn't
expect like live jazz performances in the 50s and 60s. The nice thing
about Blu-Ray is that it can be played on any Blu-Ray player so it
doesn't require finding an SACD player, and BR is much easier to rip.

Mike


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[Archimago]

Interesting discussion boys... Lets open up a new thread on
multichannel! I as well have been listening to more multichannel over
the last year and slowly putting a library together.

Would be interested in how you all are doing the playback side...



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[Wombat]

Also Pono realized dsd is a growing market
http://www.audiostream.com/content/pono-play-dsd
Wonder if they stop selling PCM then of the ones available as dsd
because they want only the best!



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[Archimago]

Wombat wrote:
> Also Pono realized dsd is a growing market
> http://www.audiostream.com/content/pono-play-dsd
> Wonder if they stop selling PCM then of the ones available as dsd
> because they want only the best!

I don't know if DSD is a growing market, Wombat. i actually know of
nobody in my audiophile circle locally who has even bothered to download
DSD. Most know about HDTracks and the like but the folks in their 50+
age groups seem to be mainly LP and CDs. Also, seems like there was
little DSD news at CES this year.

Anyone know if Sony is even pushing DSD? I keep seeing these
Bennett/Lady Gaga Sony ads... Ghastly! I can't see that album being a
good ambassador for high-resolution.



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[Mnyb]

I think wombat is joking :) .

The general pointlessness of DSD ( as a consumer playback system ) is
another topic



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[Wombat]

Mnyb wrote:
> I think wombat is joking :) .
>
> The general pointlessness of DSD ( as a consumer playback system ) is
> another topic
Myself also knows no one being interestet to much in dsd luckily. It
could be nice to get some old SACD masterings though. dsd is a prime
example for wishfull thinking. Buyers get fooled very hard.
Unfortunately there are places in outer space that declared dsd as
obviously clearly superior. CA comes me to mind here.



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[ralphpnj]

Mnyb wrote:
> I think wombat is joking :) .
>
> The general pointlessness of DSD ( as a consumer playback system ) is
> another topic

DSD maybe pointless as a consumer playback system (which it most
definitely is) but DSD is great as a marketing tool.

Remember always FOLLOW THE MONEY!



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[Mike Sargent]

Archimago wrote:
> I keep seeing these Bennett/Lady Gaga Sony ads... Ghastly! I can't see
> that album being a good ambassador for high-resolution.

Actually, it's quite a good album. Don't let your biases prevent you
from listening to good music.

Mike


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[ralphpnj]

Mike Sargent wrote:
> Actually, it's quite a good album. Don't let your biases prevent you
> from listening to good music.
>
> Mike

While it's good to see/hear Lady Gaga expanding her range, she still has
a lot to learn about how to sing standards but at least she is trying
and hopefully learning and from one of the great ones at that!

Madonna, who is twice Lady Gaga's age, is the one who should learn how
to sing standards but instead she is still pretending to be 25 years
old. Kinda sad.



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[Archimago]

Mike Sargent wrote:
> Actually, it's quite a good album. Don't let your biases prevent you
> from listening to good music.
>
> Mike

I actually like standards albums. That's fine. I'm not referring
necessarily to the quality of the performance (subjective), but rather
that the recording and mastering isn't that great to show off
high-resolution.

Plus I get a bit freaked out by the cover image!



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[Wirrunna]

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/02/pono-player-review-a-tall-refreshing-drink-of-snake-oil/1/



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[ralphpnj]

Wirrunna wrote:
> http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/02/pono-player-review-a-tall-refreshing-drink-of-snake-oil/1/

Thanks! A very enjoyable read and a real hands on, real world review.



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[Wirrunna]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Thanks! A very enjoyable read and a real hands on, real world review.

Good, I thought it was too. Did you follow the link to the tear down ?
http://mikebeauchamp.com/2014/12/pono-player-teardown/ in case you
missed it.



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[ralphpnj]

Wirrunna wrote:
> Good, I thought it was too. Did you follow the link to the tear down ?
> http://mikebeauchamp.com/2014/12/pono-player-teardown/ in case you
> missed it.

I did now :)

Looks like the hardware design of the Pono player was very well thought
out however from what I've read thus far about the player it's the
software and useability side of things that fall quite short and need
some work.



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[Archimago]

Hmmm. Still no measurements yet!



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[Mnyb]

Archimago wrote:
> Hmmm. Still no measurements yet!

Yes no measurement ? But it's seems nice enough portable player with
good headphone drive capability actually quite ok.
But as stated that would not sell , let's get on the HRA hype bandwagon
:D

Considering that many headfi guys lug around multiple box rigs in thier
backpacks when travelling . This could be an option . But some actual
measurement on the output impedance is critical to asses that . Meaning
if the impedance is to high your better of with a good old Sansa clip
and save the money .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[paulster]

Mnyb wrote:
> Yes no measurement ? But it's seems nice enough portable player with
> good headphone drive capability actually quite ok.
> But as stated that would not sell , let's get on the HRA hype bandwagon
> :D
>
> Considering that many headfi guys lug around multiple box rigs in thier
> backpacks when travelling . This could be an option . But some actual
> measurement on the output impedance is critical to asses that . Meaning
> if the impedance is to high your better of with a good old Sansa clip
> and save the money .

I'd be interested to see measurements. I've had two of them, one that
sounded noticeably different to the other (which is a QC worry), but
neither of them could hold a candle to the other couple of 9018-based
DACs I have in my systems. The owner of one of them came over all
excited to see how good it would sound in my hifi, with balanced cables
and everything at the ready. It only took a few notes before he uttered
a very deflated, "Oh."

The perception is the bass seems to be muddy, and it feels like it has a
rising frequency response, making it comparatively shrill and
fatiguing.

I've listened to them on Sennheiser HD-600s (single-ended and balanced
outputs), Ultimate Ears UE10pros (single-ended outputs), and via the
single-ended and balanced line outs, all of which exhibited the same
traits.



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[Mnyb]

paulster wrote:
> I'd be interested to see measurements. I've had two of them, one that
> sounded noticeably different to the other (which is a QC worry), but
> neither of them could hold a candle to the other couple of 9018-based
> DACs I have in my systems. The owner of one of them came over all
> excited to see how good it would sound in my hifi, with balanced cables
> and everything at the ready. It only took a few notes before he uttered
> a very deflated, "Oh."
>
> The perception is the bass seems to be muddy, and it feels like it has a
> rising frequency response, making it comparatively shrill and
> fatiguing.
>
> I've listened to them on Sennheiser HD-600s (single-ended and balanced
> outputs), Ultimate Ears UE10pros (single-ended outputs), and via the
> single-ended and balanced line outs, all of which exhibited the same
> traits.

If it has a frequency response problem and muddy bass when driving
headphones that makes me want to see the measurements even more , looks
like a classic impedance mismatch problem



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[stroom]

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/pono-player-and-promises-fulfilled



==============================================
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[Mnyb]

stroom wrote:
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/pono-player-and-promises-fulfilled

Interesting review a lot off things about which headphones to use .

So the designer is of the zero feedback faith and apodising filter faith
.

Any one used the store yet to buy some music .



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[paulster]

stroom wrote:
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/pono-player-and-promises-fulfilled

The trouble is you read that and you think it's going to sound amazing
with well-matched headphones, based on the fact that they've used the
DACs in fully differential mode, have +/- power supplies, and separate
power supplies, for clock, digital, and analogue, and yet I haven't been
more disappointed by a product in some time. I couldn't even get it to
sound good when driving my preamp inputs in single-ended or balanced
mode, which is about as easy a load as you can possibly expect.



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[Apesbrain]

Recent review and some measurements here:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/pono-ponoplayer-portable-music-player


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[Mnyb]

Apesbrain wrote:
> Another recent review and some measurements here:
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/pono-ponoplayer-portable-music-player

Thanks that put even more insigths to it .

Where to start , if you for religious reasons resorts to filters that
re-introduce aliasing artifacts in the audio ( just like a very cheap
soundcard ) this compromise performance for 16/44.1 and then also sell
the beliefs that 24/192 is necessary :rolleyes:

I do smell some cargo cult engineering here here as these probably well
designed but novel no global feedback designs do exhibits more
distortion and varying modulated I say output impedance which the
designer actually deludes in thinking its a feature !
Zero global feedback designs typically always sounds better for reasons
unexplained and he also believes that ABX and DBT does not work
:rolleys: yes they do they cancel you bias for zero feedback designs and
novel filter topology .....

Like the other review exposed I migth just use my iPad Air , the latest
generation tablets and phones are that good , for my music on the go
needs .

My interest in this products is somewhat diminished , given the chance
in a store or something I would still listen to it . But I would not
mail order it in blind faith and hope it will be good .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
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iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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[Mike Sargent]

Pono just announced a new feature: PonoRevealer. It downloads the same
song in multiple resolutions to your Pono player and then allows you to
change resolutions in the middle of a song. Resolutions include: MP3
(Amazon), AAC (Mastered for iTunes), CD (44.1/16), 96/24 and 192/24.

'PonoRevealer'
(https://www.ponomusic.com/ccrz__CCPage?oId=a201500000BtIph&pageKey=product&type=Update)

It sure would be interesting to see if someone can get at the low res
files and see what Pono has actually done when down-rezzing the original
file. A little science and some blind testing would be fascinating.

Mike


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[arnyk]

Apesbrain wrote:
> Another recent review and some measurements here:
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/pono-ponoplayer-portable-music-player

Most interesting plot might be:

'Pono Player Measurements at Stereophile.com'
(http://www.stereophile.com/content/pono-ponoplayer-portable-music-player-measurements)

18011

"Fig.3 Pono PonoPlayer, frequency response at –12dBFS into 100k ohms
with data sampled at: 44.1kHz (left channel cyan, right magenta), 96kHz
(left green, right gray), 192kHz (left blue, right red) (0.5dB/vertical
div.)"

Probably audible to younger listeners with demanding program material as
a loss of high treble.

In general it seems to me to be a less desirable device for critical
listening than a Sansa Clip or Fuse due to its high source impedance,
mediocre distortion and poor frequency response @ 44 KHz.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
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[ralphpnj]

arnyk wrote:
> Most interesting plot might be:
>
> 'Pono Player Measurements at Stereophile.com'
> (http://www.stereophile.com/content/pono-ponoplayer-portable-music-player-measurements)
>
> 18011
>
> "Fig.3 Pono PonoPlayer, frequency response at –12dBFS into 100k ohms
> with data sampled at: 44.1kHz (left channel cyan, right magenta), 96kHz
> (left green, right gray), 192kHz (left blue, right red) (0.5dB/vertical
> div.)"
>
> Probably audible to younger listeners with demanding program material as
> a loss of high treble.
>
> In general it seems to me to be a less desirable device for critical
> listening than a Sansa Clip or Fuse due to its high source impedance,
> mediocre distortion and poor frequency response @ 44 KHz.

The plot thickens (pun intended). Could it be that Pono's "glorious"
sound with high resolution material is due it's less than stellar
reproduction of standard resolution material? Just saying.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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& Energy sub
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Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
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[arnyk]

ralphpnj wrote:
> The plot thickens (pun intended). Could it be that Pono's "glorious"
> sound with high resolution material is due it's less than stellar
> reproduction of standard resolution material? Just saying.

Truthfully, this is not a big enough of a flaw to create a "glorious"
sound difference, just one that could be reliably detected with certain
program material by certain careful listeners, doing a listening test
that is more sensitive than the usual casual listening.

It is big enough to look impressive to casual readers, but to me it
seems to be pointed in the wrong direction to impress their target
market.

I have to admit that I can't relate to the product's designers. Their
thinking seems to have left the tracks my brain runs on with their
phobia about using active correction (Inverse Feedback).


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[Archimago]

arnyk wrote:
> ...
> It is big enough to look impressive to casual readers, but to me it
> seems to be pointed in the wrong direction to impress their target
> market.
> ...

That there is the key.

As far as I can tell, all of this rumination around specialized filters
to modify the impulse response and ringing at Nyquist is to create the
*idea* that somehow making the impulse response look pretty with no
pre-ringing is -desirable-...

Even if it means rolling off the highs and/or allowing aliasing to creep
in. Potential audible effects to those lucky enough to still have
pristine high-frequency hearing.

Nonetheless, still gathering data on those SoX filters in my listening
test!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[paulster]

The player doesn't natively play DSD or DoP FLAC, despite the DACs
ability to do so. The version of jRiver converts DSD to PCM FLAC, which
seems like a complete oversight.



Two track 1's and no track 2 after a scan for new and changed? Please
vote for serious scanning bug '17782'
(http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17782)
Receiver stuck at blue LED state after reboot? Please vote for bug
'17462' (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17462)
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[pippin]

It would be even more interesting to look at some of the HD tracks and
check whether they still contain MP3 artifacts...



---
learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox
and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
*New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8*
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