Discussion:
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: The Wisdom of Simplicity? Another take on recent Stereophile "As We See It".
Archimago
2015-12-28 18:55:21 UTC
Permalink
Greetings everyone!

What a busy few months around here. Hope you're all keeping well...

Thought I'd post a link to my latest MUSING post. Couldn't help myself
but to post up something to counter Atkinson's recent offering in
Stereophile for the end of 2015 :-).

'MUSINGS: The Wisdom of Simplicity [RE: Hi-Res Audio]? And a Happy New
Year!'
(http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/12/musings-wisdom-of-simplicity-re-hi-res.html)

Have a great 2016 ahead!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
Julf
2015-12-28 19:06:09 UTC
Permalink
Couldn't help myself but to post up something to counter Atkinson's
recent offering in Stereophile for the end of 2015 :-).
Seems he still lives in 1985. Or 1975. :)
Have a great 2016 ahead!
You too!



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
Wombat
2015-12-28 19:12:56 UTC
Permalink
A good summary with good linking to fact pages, thanks!
One thing i see different is the idea we have to pay extra for less
compressed music. One version for the cd choosen by the artist is ok but
on downloads it should be possible to choose without paying more.
Regarding higher bitrates i like how for example bandcamp works. You
normaly just get the higher bit version without a penny extra.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
Mnyb
2015-12-28 19:49:02 UTC
Permalink
I'm on to it but a bit reluctant to the "real" need for a bigger than
16/44.1 container for tier 2

Maybe for marketing reasons as the demographic simply won't believe how
good a CD really can sound and that's it, but still have some disbelief
in the back of thier mind that it could be even better in 24/96 . It's
not a technical margin ( that's set by our biology ) but a "piece of
mind" margin .
I may never be possible to get it trough records sounds bad because they
are bad , not due to containers anymore . The cassette the LP and VHS
all had serious limitations . We don't have limiting container formats
anymore since streaming service got >320kB or better .
Unless we want to .Web radio have chosen to be on limiting container
format for thier business model , it would even impose problems for tier
1 in your scenario , but that's another market segment .

And ofcourse it should still be -recorded- in >=24/96 and processed as
floating point data until is down mastered to whatever format , tier 1
or tier 2 .

But it's worth thinking of . If you project the arrow of "high end" as
TAS will have it we all have 0.0000000003 watt SET amps costing a
trillion dollar with unobtainium transformers in 2100 .

Or 7D 80000k TV's and 625 channels for cool AV stuff if you project that
branch of audio .

That simply won't work at al :)
Good soundquality and picture quality can be an obvious commodity for
everyone on the cheap .

The focus must be back to the program material , the art of the music or
the movie . And the listening environment . The place and time to single
mindedly immerse in a work of art for its own sake . Not multitasking it
on the run while tweeting about it...

If one could sell the idea to just sit down and listen to music as a
trend ? The retro trend of vinyl is an indication , some of the new
generation do apriciate the idea of experiencing a piece of music .
Instead of the endless auto generated tapestry from some streaming
service .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
Wombat
2015-12-28 19:57:05 UTC
Permalink
I think you are right. When people get the uncompressed with 24/96 only
they surely will relate it to the bitrate.

P.S.: My talk of the week was with another fellow about listening tests
and something like the Philips golden ear challenge and he can't do it
because of aged hearing but in the next sentense teaches me about
blacker blacks in 24bit music :)



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
ralphpnj
2015-12-28 22:52:09 UTC
Permalink
Nicely done, Archimago. I can never manage to keep my tone even remotely
civil when discussing anything written in one of the high end audio
magazines.

I also found this "As We See It" column from November 2015 to be equally
funny:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/we-dont-get-no-respect#PtOAgYWHfZzYmCm6.97

Classic straw-man argument.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
arnyk
2015-12-30 11:31:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
Nicely done, Archimago. I can never manage to keep my tone even remotely
civil when discussing anything written in one of the high end audio
magazines.
I also found this "As We See It" column from November 2015 to be equally
http://www.stereophile.com/content/we-dont-get-no-respect#PtOAgYWHfZzYmCm6.97
Classic straw-man argument.
For example:

Atkinson's misrepresentation:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/simple-everything-appears-simple#qTOJfKoF1IRTqTmK.99

"Harper was referring to a 2007 paper by E. Brad Meyer and David R.
Moran that "proved" that there was no sonic advantage to high-resolution
audio formats (footnote 3)
Read more at
http://www.stereophile.com/content/simple-everything-appears-simple#qTOJfKoF1IRTqTmK.99

Actual article abstract:

"Claims both published and anecdotal are regularly made for audibly
superior sound quality for two-channel audio encoded with longer word
lengths and/or at higher sampling rates than the 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD
standard. The authors report on a series of double-blind tests comparing
the analog output of high-resolution players playing high-resolution
recordings with the same signal passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz
“bottleneck.” The tests were conducted for over a year using different
systems and a variety of subjects. The systems included expensive
professional monitors and one high-end system with electrostatic
loudspeakers and expensive components and cables. The subjects included
professional recording engineers, students in a university recording
program, and dedicated audiophiles. The test results show that the
CD-quality A/D/A loop was undetectable at normal-to-loud listening
levels, by any of the subjects, on any of the playback systems. The
noise of the CD-quality loop was audible only at very elevated levels."

Actual article conclusion:

"We have analyzed all of the test data by type of music
and specific program; type of high-resolution technology;
age of recording; and listener age, gender, experience, and
hearing bandwidth. None of these variables have shown
any correlation with the results, or any difference between
the answers and coin-flip results

The previous work cited, some of it at the very beginning
of the CD era and some more recent, pointed toward
our result. With the momentum of widespread “high-rez”
anecdotes over the last decade, culminating in the Stuart
assertions, we felt the need to go further and perform a
thorough, straightforward double-blind level-matched listening
test to determine whether 16/44.1 technology would
audibly degrade the sound of the best high-resolution discs
we could find. We used a large and varied sample of
serious listeners; we conducted our tests using several different
types of high-quality playback systems and rooms;
and we took as much time as we felt necessary to establish
the transparency of the CD standard.

Now, it is very difficult to use negative results to prove
the inaudibility of any given phenomenon or process.
There is always the remote possibility that a different system
or more finely attuned pair of ears would reveal a
difference. But we have gathered enough data, using sufficiently
varied and capable systems and listeners, to state
that the burden of proof has now shifted. Further claims
that careful 16/44.1 encoding audibly degrades highresolution
signals must be supported by properly controlled
double-blind tests."

It appears that the articles contents were thoroughly misrepresented by
Mr. Atkinson for fun and profit.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
ralphpnj
2015-12-30 13:38:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
It appears that the articles contents were thoroughly misrepresented by
Mr. Atkinson for fun and profit.
Gee, what a surprise! To paraphrase Claude Rains (as Captain Louis
Renault): I'm shocked to find lying going on in these magazines!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
Wombat
2016-01-02 20:22:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
Nicely done, Archimago. I can never manage to keep my tone even remotely
civil when discussing anything written in one of the high end audio
magazines.
Indeed! Hard to find more honeyed words to tell someone he is delusional
in one of Archimagos replies on the comments to this srticle :)
"The fact that blind-testing and measurements generally agree on what
is/is not audible I think is a powerful combination though. The reports
of folks perceiving something else more likely than not informs us of
these other human biases rather than what is physically happening in
terms of the actual digital-to-analogue conversion or sound waves
emanating from our headphones and speakers."



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
pablolie
2016-01-03 04:24:57 UTC
Permalink
I just think for some audiophile aficionados the gear is the journey.
They love new toys. And they convince themselves every toy is somehow
better than the last somehow. Or not. For entirely subjective reasons
most of the time, provided said gear is competently engineered.

For other audiophiles, the music is the journey, and the gear the means
to reaching it, hence when diminishing returns hit, interest in new gear
decreases.

I think my mix is 20/80 on those. I like audio bling, but all in all my
choices are rational and they last for a while. I'd rather spend money
on my wine and motorcycle collection. :-D



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine (on VMware Player) running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS
7.7.5
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem
DreamCatcher
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado
PS500e/Shure 1540
------------------------------------------------------------------------
pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
Julf
2016-01-03 08:06:25 UTC
Permalink
I'd rather spend money on my wine and motorcycle collection. :-D
Indeed. Especially with the wine collection it is a major struggle -
mine tends to shrink rather than grow. And right now I am concentrating
on keeping the bikes actually running, instead of adding yet more... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
mlsstl
2016-01-07 02:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Good article. I took a long sabbatical from all of the audio forums I've
frequented over the years and on my return have not been surprised that
nothing has changed in the audiophile world.

It was quite some time ago when the hobby lost me over the widespread
obsession of fiercely debating the arrangement of deck chairs on the
Titanic while blithely ignoring the horrid quality of a large percentage
of recordings. What is the point of arguing over hi-rez files capable of
storing high frequencies for bats when the typical pop/rock album fails
to make good use of the potential of the Edison wax cylinder format?

A good recording on a CD can easily transport me emotionally to a level
of immersion in the music that requires nothing more for my total
enjoyment. I don't need magic cables, hi-rez files or photos in my
freezer. I'd simply like more recordings that are better quality.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
garym
2015-12-28 22:58:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
Greetings everyone!
What a busy few months around here. Hope you're all keeping well...
Thought I'd post a link to my latest MUSING post. Couldn't help myself
but to post up something to counter Atkinson's recent offering in
Stereophile for the end of 2015 :-).
'MUSINGS: The Wisdom of Simplicity [RE: Hi-Res Audio]? And a Happy New
Year!'
(http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/12/musings-wisdom-of-simplicity-re-hi-res.html)
Have a great 2016 ahead!
Thanks for this and all the good work you do for our hobby. Your work
gives me faith in humanity! Have a healthy and happy 2016!



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
(all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win8(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
------------------------------------------------------------------------
garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
cliveb
2015-12-30 08:58:03 UTC
Permalink
As usual, generally insightful comments from Archimago. I do however
have one minor nit to pick...

I suspect your definitions of tier1 and tier2 would encourage the
continued use of excessive dynamic range compression for tier1.
Meanwhile, if a mastering with natural dynamics is made for tier2, why
shouldn't it also be made available at 16/44?
The average Joe is going to buy the cheapest version, regardless of
mastering quality. So if we had a "tier1.5", (where the tier2 mastering
is used but downsampled to 16/44, and priced the same as tier1), with
luck it might actually help in some small way to drive hypercompression
out of the marketplace.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
------------------------------------------------------------------------
cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
Julf
2015-12-30 09:40:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by cliveb
As usual, generally insightful comments from Archimago. I do however
have one minor nit to pick...
I suspect your definitions of tier1 and tier2 would encourage the
continued use of excessive dynamic range compression for tier1.
Meanwhile, if a mastering with natural dynamics is made for tier2, why
shouldn't it also be made available at 16/44?
The average Joe is going to buy the cheapest version, regardless of
mastering quality. So if we had a "tier1.5", (where the tier2 mastering
is used but downsampled to 16/44, and priced the same as tier1), with
luck it might actually help in some small way to drive hypercompression
out of the marketplace.
You have to remember that there is (often) a reason producers and
artists use "excessive" compression (and often it is an "artistic
choice") - both the artists/producers and the average Joe actually
prefer the compressed sound. Yes, it might be because by now, it is what
they are used to, but it is still their preference.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=104904
Loading...