[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Technical Question: Is the amount of jitter a function of the type of connection?

[ralphpnj]

As I asked in the thread title: Is the amount of jitter a function of
the type of connection?

What I mean is does the amount of jitter vary for different types of
connection?

So is there more or less jitter present in a USB connection than in a
coax connection?

More or less jitter present in a coax connection than in an Ethernet
connection?

More or less jitter present in an Ethernet connection than in file
played from a memory buffer?

More or less jitter present in a file played from a standard hard drive
or a file played from an SSD?

More or less jitter present in a file from an SSD or a file played from
RAM?

And finally: Is some amount of jitter always present regardless of
connection type?

Please note: I am not trolling, I am trying to get a better
understanding of jitter and what causes jitter in the first place.



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[Mnyb]

What I mean is does the amount of jitter vary for different types of
connection?

\"YES\"

So is there more or less jitter present in a USB connection than in a
coax connection?

\"IT DEPENDS ON THE TYPE OF USB AND CAN BE IMPLEMENTATION DEPENDENT YOU
CAN NOT SAY UNLESS YOU HAVE TWO MEASURED EXAMPLES TO COMPARE . HOWEVER
ASYNCHRONOUS USB 2 MAKES IT SOURCE INDEPENDENT AND IT'S JUST WHAT THE
DAC DOES THAT'S MATTER \"

More or less jitter present in a coax connection than in an Ethernet
connection?

\"N/A ETHERNET IS NOT THAT KIND OF INTERFACE . THE COAX SPDIFF INTERFACE
HAS THIS . ETHERNET IS ALWAYS ASYCHROUNUAS AND BUFFERED FOR OUR
PURPOSES\"

More or less jitter present in an Ethernet connection than in file
played from a memory buffer?

\"N/A YOU CAN NOT PLAY DIRECTLY FROM ETHERNET , THERE IS ALWAYS AN OS
AND A MEMORY INVOLVED . IT'S LIKE ASKING IF A DOWNLOADED FILE GETS MORE
JITTER OVER TIME ;) SO THESE TWO ARE THE SAME YOU ARE PLAYING FROM A
MEMORY BUFFER WITH ETHERNET , PULL THE WIRE FROM YOUR SQUEEZEBOX AND IT
WILL PLAY FOR ALMOST 30 SECONDS\"

More or less jitter present in a file played from a standard hard drive
or a file played from an SSD?

\"N/A THAT'S NOT HOW THINGS WORK, NOT IN A DIRECT WAY THAT REALLY
MATTERS\"

More or less jitter present in a file from an SSD or a file played from
RAM?

\"N/A THAT'S NOT HOW THINGS WORK, NOT IN A DIRECT WAY THAT REALLY
MATTERS\"

And finally: Is some amount of jitter always present regardless of
connection type?

A TENTATIVE YES , BUT THE KEY IS A CONNECTION THAT'S TIMING DEPENDENT ,
THIS IS USUALLY BETWEEN DIFFERENT MACHINES AND WITH PRIMITIVE INTERFACES
LIKE SPDIFF WHERE A TIME BASE IS DERIVED FROM THE SIGNAL ITSELF . THE
DAC SYNC ITS PLAYBACK ONTO THE 44.1 IT CAN DERIVE FROM THE SPDIFF
CARRIER

Please note: I am not trolling, I am trying to get a better
understanding of jitter and what causes jitter in the first place.

\"ITS NOISE IN THE TIMING OF A SIGNAL BUT THE CONTEXT IS IN AN INTERFACE
WHERE IT'S MATTERS . LIKE IN DA CONVERSION WHERE THE DAC TURNS A 16 BIT
WORD INTO A VOLTAGE EVERY 1/44.1 SECOND THE TIMING OF THIS MUST BE
PRECISE, NOTE MY EXAMPLE IS SIMPLIFIED DAC ARE MORE INVOLVED THESE
DAYS\"

-"But this is more or less a solved problem it's not present in audible
quantities in modern DAC's and the question does not really apply to
what's going on inside a computer . It's a popular marketing term as it
can always be improved in minute increments ;) "-



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[Julf]

ralphpnj wrote:
> And finally: Is some amount of jitter always present regardless of
> connection type?

There is always some jitter on the DAC output, because there are no
perfect clocks.

In some cases that jitter is affected by the connection, in others it
isn't.

In many systems/players/DACs there is either a memory buffer or an
asynchronous sample rate converter that isolates the DAC clock from the
incoming clock, and in a clean design, the connection does not influence
the output jitter. We can then speculate about scenarios where the input
connection affects the audio clock through induced electrical noise
etc., but there I would really like to see published evidence of the
effect (and there optical should have a very clear advantage).

In many simpler designs, the audio clock is derived from the incoming
clock when using connections such as S/PDIF (using a phase-locked loop
with a low-pass filter), so the input clock jitter can affect the audio
output.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[arnyk]

ralphpnj wrote:
> As I asked in the thread title: Is the amount of jitter a function of
> the type of connection?
>
> What I mean is does the amount of jitter vary for different types of
> connection?
>
> So is there more or less jitter present in a USB connection than in a
> coax connection?
>
> More or less jitter present in a coax connection than in an Ethernet
> connection?
>

The audiophile myth that underlies this question appears to be the myth
that jitter is only dependent on the type of connection.

If that were true, then all DACs connected via a specific kind of link
would sound the same, no?

The question also falsifies a recent post by the same poster claiming
that tagging files always audibly hinders their sound quality.

Only one thing can be the most important thing. So, which is it, tagging
or connection type? (That's a rhetorical question - the answer is that
many things can be the most important thing depending on other details
of the situaton.)

Pretty good demonstration of the fact that poor critical thinking is
involved in many of these audiophile-myth based questions.

Pretty ironic that the same poster presents himself as a superior expert
in so many things audio and has a track record for insulting people that
disagree with his mythical beliefs.


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[cliveb]

Ralph, a more pertinent set of questions would be:

a). how much jitter is required to actually cause an audible
difference?
b). what types of (non-broken) connection can causes that amount of
jitter?

The answers to these questions are:

a). Surprisingly high. Two well-known properly conducted trials are:

Benjamin & Gannon.
Theoretical and audible effects of jitter on digital audio quality.
105th AES Convention, 1998
Jitter added to digital signal between transport and DAC with a
hardware device.
Conclusions: uncorrelated jitter inaudible below 10nS rms on pure
tones;
uncorrelated jitter inaudible below 20nS rms on music
signal

Ashihara, Kiryu et al.
Detection threshold for distortions due to jitter on digital audio.
Acoust. Sci. & Tech. 26, 1 (2005)
Jitter simulated in the digital domain.
Conclusions: uncorrelated jitter inaudible below 250nS on music
signal.

b). None.

So in summary, you don't need to worry about what connection type you
use as far as jitter is concerned. Or rather, you don't need to worry
about jitter at all. It's not the bogeyman that the audiophile community
like to think it is.

arnyk wrote:
> The question also falsifies a recent post by the same poster claiming
> that tagging files always audibly hinders their sound quality.
I know you have a sense of humour, Arny, so I'm surprised that Ralph's
earlier joke post seems to have gone over your head.



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[ralphpnj]

cliveb wrote:
> Ralph, a more pertinent set of questions would be:
>
> a). how much jitter is required to actually cause an audible
> difference?
> b). what types of (non-broken) connection can causes that amount of
> jitter?
>
> The answers to these questions are:
>
> a). Surprisingly high. Two well-known properly conducted trials are:
>
> Benjamin & Gannon.
> Theoretical and audible effects of jitter on digital audio quality.
> 105th AES Convention, 1998
> Jitter added to digital signal between transport and DAC with a
> hardware device.
> Conclusions: uncorrelated jitter inaudible below 10nS rms on pure
> tones;
> uncorrelated jitter inaudible below 20nS rms on music
> signal
>
> Ashihara, Kiryu et al.
> Detection threshold for distortions due to jitter on digital audio.
> Acoust. Sci. & Tech. 26, 1 (2005)
> Jitter simulated in the digital domain.
> Conclusions: uncorrelated jitter inaudible below 250nS on music
> signal.
>
> b). None.
>
> So in summary, you don't need to worry about what connection type you
> use as far as jitter is concerned. Or rather, you don't need to worry
> about jitter at all. It's not the bogeyman that the audiophile community
> like to think it is.
>
>
> I know you have a sense of humour, Arny, so I'm surprised that Ralph's
> earlier joke post seems to have gone over your head.

Thank you Clive for that very clear and thorough answer and also for
reminding Arny that I was, indeed, only joking about the audible effects
of tagging.

Based on what I've observing it would appear that jitter is now
replacing "clean power" along with several other audiophile bogeymen as
the newest in the ongoing line of audiophile bogeymen. I guess even fake
cures need fake illnesses for hem to be effective (where "effective"
means the ability to make people part with their money).



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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& Energy sub
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Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Thank you Clive for that very clear and thorough answer and also for
> reminding Arny that I was, indeed, only joking about the audible effects
> of tagging.
>
> Based on what I've observing it would appear that jitter is now
> replacing "clean power" along with several other audiophile bogeymen as
> the newest in the ongoing line of audiophile bogeymen. I guess even fake
> cures need fake illnesses for hem to be effective (where "effective"
> means the ability to make people part with their money).

Excellent discussion guys!

Jitter has been a bogeyman for years... As far as I recall, it was
always the "digital sucks" poster boy from the 80's. For example, here's
Stereophile from 1992:
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/193jitter/#LLFxUQ3vMHFGhd4t.97

As others have noted, it began with the SPDIF interface which embeds
clock data within the serial data stream, thus the "transport" device's
clock accuracy could be questioned and clock recovery and timing
reconstitution whether by PLL, ASRC, buffering were utilized to smooth
things out for the receiving DAC. So we could say that in the SPDIF
days, the transport and DAC both have roles in maintaining clock
accuracy.

With the advent of true asynchronicity with async USB and ethernet these
days where it's just data transfer with bidirectional flow control, the
onus is on the DAC itself if we see any kind of timing/jitter issue.

Here's Ethan Winer and discussion of jitter manifesting in the analogue
output as FM modulated sidebands:
http://ethanwiner.com/audibility.html

And those sidebands are of course what the Dunn J-test is about. In
testing, it's not difficult to find them in most all SPDIF transport-DAC
combinations but they really are -imperceptibly tiny- in the vast
majority of cases with sidebands <100dB below the primary signal and in
real music would easily be masked by the sound or buried deep in a
typical recording's noise floor! With an ethernet streamer like the
Squeezebox systems (Touch, Transporter) there's no issue at all...
Likewise async USB remains clean unless the DAC itself is clocked
poorly.

BOTTOM LINE:
1. Jitter is by and far an inaudible phenomenon in today's systems. Only
the foulest of "audiophile" designs raise eyebrows like this Zanden 5000
Mk.IV:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/zanden-5000-mkivsignature-da-converter-2000-premium-cd-transport-measurements#QVhaxZEDAmVy7kBc.97

2. Sure, SPDIF digital interfaces and obsolete adaptive isochronous USB
interfaces can show higher jitter-related anomalies with measurements
than asynchronous ethernet/USB. Again, measurable anomalies do not mean
audible.

3. Anyone who cares so much about timing and jitter should have a good
look at vinyl wow & flutter - orders of magnitude worse! Yet somehow
audiophiles turn a blind eye on this but pick on jitter as being
something terrible! [Here's 'my fun look at using the vinyl PlatterSpeed
app with digital'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/09/measurements-digital-audio-and.html),
compare it with 'this link of the Technics SL-1200 turntable'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/08/measurements-technics-sl-1200-m3d-wow.html)...]

4. The recent advent of the JitterBug and UpTone's USB Regen is more on
the same theme... Neither have released any useful technical information
to show they work. In fact, measurements for the JitterBug in
'Stereophile has suggested no effect'
(http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-jitterbug-usb-noise-filter-measurements)
and the eye pattern published suggests 'worsening rise time'
(http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18311-AQ-Jitterbug-Measurements/page20).
All reported benefits seem to be either from company representatives or
testimony (like John Atkinson's). And of course 'lots of talk about
Regen' (http://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner) with still
no objective evidence. Oh, BTW, 'here's Mark Waldrep's testing with the
Regen' (http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5150). Predictably, -nada
-according to him but there were some other followups with folks who
thought they did hear something... Alas no actual controlled ABX'ing I
think. The arguments rage one...

Fun times :o.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Julf]

<satire>

Archimago wrote:
> Here's Ethan Winer and discussion of jitter manifesting in the analogue
> output as FM modulated sidebands:
> http://ethanwiner.com/audibility.html

Uh, but Ethan is a well-known "bits are bits" preacher - and what would
he know, anyway, he's just an acoustics engineer and musician.

> Anyone who cares so much about timing and jitter should have a good look
> at vinyl wow & flutter - orders of magnitude worse!

But that is *analog* wow and flutter. It just makes the sound warmer and
more musical, just like the 2% distortion from a pickup.

> Oh, BTW, 'here's Mark Waldrep's testing with the Regen'
> (http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5150). Predictably, -nada -according to
> him but there were some other followups with folks who thought they did
> hear something... Alas no actual controlled ABX'ing I think. The
> arguments rage on...

But isn't Waldrep the guy who pointed out that most "hi-res" recordings
aren't? And how would he know, he's just a recording engineer, right?

</satire>



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Archimago]

Julf wrote:
> <satire>
>
>
>
> Uh, but Ethan is a well-known "bits are bits" preacher - and what would
> he know, anyway, he's just an acoustics engineer and musician.
>
>
>
> But that is *analog* wow and flutter. It just makes the sound warmer and
> more musical, just like the 2% distortion from a pickup.
>
>
>
> But isn't Waldrep the guy who pointed out that most "hi-res" recordings
> aren't? And how would he know, he's just a recording engineer, right?
>
> </satire>

You can add *Bob Katz* to that list:
http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5031

See the comments section on "REGEN Nonsense".

What does -**that**- guy know!? Although, I seem to recall 'he wrote a
book'
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0240808371/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0240808371&linkCode=as2&tag=archsmusi-20&linkId=5HW2G5GGOHMC6FOX)...

:-)



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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> What does -**that**- guy know!? Although, I seem to recall 'he wrote a
> book'
> (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0240808371/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0240808371&linkCode=as2&tag=archsmusi-20&linkId=5HW2G5GGOHMC6FOX)...

So did Ethan, and Mark Waldrep is doing one too... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> You can add *Bob Katz* to that list:
> http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5031
>
> See the comments section on "REGEN Nonsense".
>
> What does -**that**- guy know!? Although, I seem to recall 'he wrote a
> book'
> (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0240808371/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0240808371&linkCode=as2&tag=archsmusi-20&linkId=5HW2G5GGOHMC6FOX)...
>
> :-)

You have to give Michael Lavorgna credit for going the extra mile and
"taking one for the team" for his efforts in the comments section. He
works hard for the money!



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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> You have to give Michael Lavorgna credit for going the extra mile and
> "taking one for the team" for his efforts in the comments section. He
> works hard for the money!

Good!

Everyone should work hard for the money... Especially professional
journalists who should be striving for the basic ethical foundation of:
"truthfulness, accuracy, objectivity, impartiality, fairness and public
accountability" as per Wiki. I'm sure these men are of high standards.



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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> Good!
>
> Everyone should work hard for the money... Especially professional
> journalists who should be striving for the basic ethical foundation of:
> "truthfulness, accuracy, objectivity, impartiality, fairness and public
> accountability" as per Wiki. I'm sure these men are of high standards.

OK, so any good advice for removing red wine from the keyboard and
screen?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Archimago]

Julf wrote:
> OK, so any good advice for removing red wine from the keyboard and
> screen?

Julf. You should know better than to drink and type on an audiophile
forum. :-)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[ralphpnj]

Julf wrote:
> OK, so any good advice for removing red wine from the keyboard and
> screen?

Too bad it wasn't rosé since then you could read Lavorgna's comments
through a rose colored screen, which of course is just how he writes
them.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
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[Mnyb]

Archimago thanks for mentioning the Zanden DAC and transport :) I forgot
its name .

It's a good example on why good reviewer actually must measure stuff .
This is some kind of cargo cult design , it performs worse than any
cheap Chinese DVD player . But somehow measurements only matters
sometimes :D if the design is expensive and weird enough the most
horrible performance suddenly does not matter as the thing is of the
"right stuff" an expensive true audiophile product and thus it can not
ever be bad ? So jitter is only bad in non audiophile products just like
distortion .

Ralphy inventing a boogeyman and then sell a remedy for it is standard
operations .

In the case of jitter it does actually exist the consequence of it is
just grossly exaggerated to sell you stuff.

There are 100% fabricated ones to ! Where someone's discovers a
"problem" and just like magic they have the solution for it .
they always have a solution , they never fail at that :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Excellent discussion guys!
>
> .......................
>
> 4. The recent advent of the JitterBug and UpTone's USB Regen is more on
> the same theme... Neither have released any useful technical information
> to show they work. In fact, measurements for the JitterBug in
> 'Stereophile has suggested no effect'
> (http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-jitterbug-usb-noise-filter-measurements)
> and the eye pattern published suggests 'worsening rise time'
> (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18311-AQ-Jitterbug-Measurements/page20).
> All reported benefits seem to be either from company representatives or
> testimony (like John Atkinson's). And of course 'lots of talk about
> Regen' (http://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner) with still
> no objective evidence (heck, I'm not even sure if the Regen is supposed
> to address jitter or not). Oh, BTW, 'here's Mark Waldrep's testing with
> the Regen' (http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5150). Predictably, -nada
> -according to him but there were some other followups with folks who
> thought they did hear something... Alas no actual controlled ABX'ing I
> think. The arguments rage on...
>
> 5. Cables themselves are not capable of changing the speed of data
> transfer! They cannot speed up or slow down the data. Therefore they
> have no role in "causing" more or less jitter. I think some cable
> companies have made this assertion in the past!
>
> Fun times :o.

Thanks Archimago for the entertaining links. As usual your knowledge and
understanding of these issues is first rate.

Here's my take on all those aftermarket jitter removal devices:

First let's just assume for argument's sake that these devices actually
do what they claim to do. Then let's look at the price of these devices,
which for the most part is not all that costly. So what puzzles me is
why aren't the manufacturers of all these wildly expensive audiophile
DACs simply building their own version of the devices right into the
DAC? Very similar to aftermarket power cords - why doesn't a very
expensive piece of audio equipment come with the proper power cord?
(Answer - they already do)

In the case of Audioquest, the makers of the Jitterbug, doesn't the mere
existence of the Jitterbug make the Audioquest Dagonfly DAC seem like a
broken piece of equipment? I mean if they can build the Jitterbug and
the Dagonfly, why can't they just build a Dragonfly with the Jitterbug
already built in? (Answer - more MONEY!)



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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Thanks Archimago for the entertaining links. As usual your knowledge and
> understanding of these issues is first rate.
>
> Here's my take on all those aftermarket jitter removal devices:
>
> First let's just assume for argument's sake that these devices actually
> do what they claim to do. Then let's look at the price of these devices,
> which for the most part is not all that costly. So what puzzles me is
> why aren't the manufacturers of all these wildly expensive audiophile
> DACs simply building their own version of the devices right into the
> DAC? Very similar to aftermarket power cords - why doesn't a very
> expensive piece of audio equipment come with the proper power cord?
> (Answer - they already do)
>
> In the case of Audioquest, the makers of the Jitterbug, doesn't the mere
> existence of the Jitterbug make the Audioquest Dagonfly DAC seem like a
> broken piece of equipment? I mean if they can build the Jitterbug and
> the Dagonfly, why can't they just build a Dragonfly with the Jitterbug
> already built in? (Answer - more MONEY!)

Yup.

Actually it could be worse than that! The JitterBug could be impacting
the rise time negatively as suggested by some (look at the
WhatsBestForum discussion on the eye pattern)... In which case, by using
the Jitterbug, one could potentially cause problems! Notice in
'Lavorgna's review'
(http://www.audiostream.com/content/audioquest-jitterbug-usb-data-power-noise-filter#Q4mV0Gf3a5qqi3Q3.97),
there was the situation where the Auralic Vega's "Exact" clock setting
stuttered with the JitterBug between the LH Lightspeed 2G USB cable &
DAC. He just skipped over that as if it's nothing... Clearly the DAC
didn't like the signal it "saw" at the tolerance it was able to function
at previously!



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[SBGK]

so what will you say when manufacturers start making their dacs with
regen type devices already included and people prefer the sq of those to
previous versions ? will that also be some form of mass delusion ?



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[Archimago]

SBGK wrote:
> so what will you say when manufacturers start making their dacs with
> regen type devices already included and people prefer the sq of those to
> previous versions ? will that also be some form of mass delusion ?

What, USB DACs with a USB hub chip in front of the on-board
microcontroller to "reclock" or "regenerate" or whatever?

We'll see if it happens won't we? What makes you think this could
happen?



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[arnyk]

Archimago wrote:
> What, USB DACs with a USB hub chip in front of the on-board
> microcontroller to "reclock" or "regenerate" or whatever?
>

We already went through one stage of gratuitous reclocking with the
advent of Asynch DACs, and look where that got us - a perceived need for
another stage of reclocking!

>
> We'll see if it happens won't we?
>

I have no doubt that given the low cost of parts to implement, and the
almost universal gullibility of audiophiles, it will happen.


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[Archimago]

arnyk wrote:
> We already went through one stage of gratuitous reclocking with the
> advent of Asynch DACs, and look where that got us - a perceived need for
> another stage of reclocking!
>
> I have no doubt that given the low cost of parts to implement, and the
> almost universal gullibility of audiophiles, it will happen.

:-). Well, at least the asynchronous USB protocol resulted in measurable
differences to the point where these days there's just -nothing there to
measure- with good DACs in terms of jitter! Gratuitous... Yes. But the
"ideal" is essentially achieved which is good; and at essentially no
expense these days since it's a standard feature.

As for this Regen thing though. No measurements to show it works.
Convoluted explanations which might or might not have any validity. No
evidence that it lowers noise. No need to lower jitter any further with
good DACs.

That's selling -serpentine lipids- by definition unless the company
shows some evidence. And of course the onus is on them to provide this.



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[arnyk]

SBGK wrote:
> so what will you say when manufacturers start making their dacs with
> regen type devices already included and people prefer the sq of those to
> previous versions ? will that also be some form of mass delusion ?

I will do what everybody should do all the time, and what you should do
for the first time in your life: Ask for *-reliable -*evidence that the
extra parts and circuits are actually improving sound quality.


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[Julf]

SBGK wrote:
> so what will you say when manufacturers start making their dacs with
> regen type devices already included and people prefer the sq of those to
> previous versions ? will that also be some form of mass delusion ?

Isn't that why audiophiles already prefer DACs with asynchronous sample
rate converters built in?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

SBGK wrote:
> so what will you say when manufacturers start making their dacs with
> regen type devices already included and people prefer the sq of those to
> previous versions ? will that also be some form of mass delusion ?

See below:

Archimago wrote:
> What, USB DACs with a USB hub chip in front of the on-board
> microcontroller to "reclock" or "regenerate" or whatever?
>
> We'll see if it happens won't we? What makes you think this could
> happen?

arnyk wrote:
> We already went through one stage of gratuitous reclocking with the
> advent of Asynch DACs, and look where that got us - a perceived need for
> another stage of reclocking!
>
> I have no doubt that given the low cost of parts to implement, and the
> almost universal gullibility of audiophiles, it will happen.

Julf wrote:
> Isn't that why audiophiles already prefer DACs with asynchronous sample
> rate converters built in?

What they said.

Julf wrote:
> I agree with not drinking and typing, but how can you *read* an
> audiophile forum and not drink?

How true!



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[Julf]

ralphpnj wrote:
> What they said.

Well, except... My point was that true audiophiles tend to declare
asynchronous sample rate converters Truly Evil - probably because they
make the whole jitter discussion a non-issue, and in a simple way, so
that can't be good.

The answer to by SBGK's question (that no doubt was intended to be a
rhetorical one) is that when manufacturers start making their dacs with
regen type devices already included, audiophiles (and audiophile vendors
and press) will come up with even wilder theories about why that is bad
and why external, expensive (and thus exclusive) gadgets are needed.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[arnyk]

Julf wrote:
> Well, except... My point was that true audiophiles tend to declare
> asynchronous sample rate converters Truly Evil - probably because they
> make the whole jitter discussion a non-issue, and in a simple way, so
> that can't be good.
>
> The answer to by SBGK's question (that no doubt was intended to be a
> rhetorical one) is that when manufacturers start making their dacs with
> regen type devices already included, audiophiles (and audiophile vendors
> and press) will come up with even wilder theories about why that is bad
> and why external, expensive (and thus exclusive) gadgets are needed.

Key to the audiophile credibility for such weirdness is the fact that
audiophiles in general rarely hear live music, they avoid good listening
tests, and that they can never properly audition the live feed from a
good microphone or the console at a live performance.

If they could do such things, they'd learn that with good recordings
very little is getting lost in the production process, and they'd also
learn that decades of alleged progress in terms of products like magic
cables and do-nothing products like the Regen, as well as last week's
latest magic DAC have zero audible consequences.


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[Julf]

arnyk wrote:
> Key to the audiophile credibility for such weirdness is the fact that
> audiophiles in general rarely hear live music, they avoid good listening
> tests, and that they can never properly audition the live feed from a
> good microphone or the console at a live performance.

You might be on to something there. They also often show an amazing
ignorance of how technology actually works, and have no experience of a
studio environment.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[cliveb]

arnyk wrote:
> Key to the audiophile credibility for such weirdness is the fact that
> audiophiles in general rarely hear live music, they avoid good listening
> tests, and that they can never properly audition the live feed from a
> good microphone or the console at a live performance.
That is probably true, but for the vast majority the enjoyability of
listening to music at home has little to do with whether it is a good
facsimile of what you'd hear live. It's a completely different
experience, and it is either enjoyable or it isn't in and of itself.

Case in point: the live music that I attend is typically rock concerts,
and frankly the sound quality at such events is woeful. The thing that
renders live rock concerts enjoyable is the presentation, not the sound.
The last thing I'd want to hear at home is something akin to what I hear
live. I acknowledge that live classical and acoustic jazz are probably
different, but they form a tiny fraction of what gets listened to at
home.

Note: I am NOT defending audiophiles' belief in the impossible. Like
you, I think they are barking mad. Just wanted to make that clear.



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[SBGK]

Julf wrote:
> Well, except... My point was that true audiophiles tend to declare
> asynchronous sample rate converters Truly Evil - probably because they
> make the whole jitter discussion a non-issue, and in a simple way, so
> that can't be good.
>
> The answer to by SBGK's question (that no doubt was intended to be a
> rhetorical one) is that when manufacturers start making their dacs with
> regen type devices already included, audiophiles (and audiophile vendors
> and press) will come up with even wilder theories about why that is bad
> and why external, expensive (and thus exclusive) gadgets are needed.

why would they do that if the dac was immune to any gremlins fed to it ?



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[arnyk]

SBGK wrote:
> why would they do that if the dac was immune to any gremlins fed to it ?

Because they are bullied into such wasteful purchases by unscrupulous
audio manufacturers, dealers and other audiophiles.

The audiophile culture has created a population of people who crave
influence and make up imaginary and often technically impossible
so-called problems, and then bully others into buying into their
fantasies.


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[SBGK]

arnyk wrote:
> Because they are bullied into such wasteful purchases by unscrupulous
> audio manufacturers, dealers and other audiophiles.
>
> The audiophile culture has created a population of people who crave
> influence and make up imaginary and often technically impossible
> so-called problems, and then bully others into buying into their
> fantasies.

Always interesting to hear what the holy monks of objectivism are
currently paranoid about. You forgot to mention glossy magazines full of
advertorials giving everything 8 gold stars or more.

The only bullies I've come across are objectivists who just can't
tolerate anybody reporting differences in digital playback.



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[Julf]

SBGK wrote:
> Always interesting to hear what the holy monks of objectivism are
> currently paranoid about. You forgot to mention glossy magazines full of
> advertorials giving everything 8 gold stars or more.
>
> The only bullies I've come across are objectivists who just can't
> tolerate anybody reporting differences in digital playback.

How about the snake oil pushers who demand that anyone who questions
their claims be removed from the forum?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

SBGK wrote:
> You forgot to mention glossy magazines full of advertorials giving
> everything 8 gold stars or more.

Thanks I couldn't have said it better myself except that you left out
how those glossy magazines are staffed by self proclaimed experts for
hire.

SBGK wrote:
> The only bullies I've come across are objectivists who just can't
> tolerate anybody reporting differences in digital playback.

The intolerance comes not from the fact that differences are reported
but rather from HOW these differences are being determined, particularly
when these reported differences run counter to the science of digital
audio.



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[Julf]

SBGK wrote:
> The only bullies I've come across are objectivists who just can't
> tolerate anybody reporting differences in digital playback.

18859


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[Archimago]

SBGK wrote:
> Always interesting to hear what the holy monks of objectivism are
> currently paranoid about. You forgot to mention glossy magazines full of
> advertorials giving everything 8 gold stars or more.
>
> The only bullies I've come across are objectivists who just can't
> tolerate anybody reporting differences in digital playback.

I don't think anyone is paranoid in the true sense of having
-irrational- fears or distrust of others to do harm to us... Nor would I
personally use the term "bully". Disagreements, anger, sarcasm, etc. is
just part of the discourse. I fail to see how a few guys talking
anonymously with zero power to "force" anyone to do or believe anything
as bullying. The only hope is that the discussion could sway those who
are looking for answers and thinking to explore for themselves how they
want to align in a debate. Obviously it's better to stay on track and
provide rational dialogue from both sides. And the vast majority of the
complaints from objectivists is about concerns around the irrational
beliefs, even "fears" posed by some subjectivists on sonic differences
and the need for "cures" to the sound system. In essence we're saying
subjectivists generally -do not have to be "paranoid"- that their
systems sound bad or need to add yet another questionable product to the
sonic chain.

Nothing wrong with complaining about "glossy magazines full of
advertorials giving everything 8 gold stars..." if one makes a rational
argument about journalistic integrity (which of course has been studied
in the literature and the effects when there is industry sponsorship).

I'm pretty sure I can report that DACs sound different (like my ASUS
Essence One vs. Pono vs. Dragonfly) around here. Let's see if folks
attack me for that statement... What's this about "objectivists who just
can't tolerate anybody reporting differences in digital playback"?
That's just being hysterical.

Remember, there is a *gradation *in what is possible and what is
extremely unlikely. DACs sounding different because of channel balance
issues, noise level, digital filter settings (think Pono) are all fair
game and quite possible. Slight jitter differences, highly unlikely to
be an issue at all. FLAC vs. WAV vs. ALAC - you'd seriously need some
damn good -evidence -to impress anyone!



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[Julf]

One more data point on the "USB conditioners" here: 'Whats Best
Forum:Science Thread-Review of Audioquest Jitterbug and Uptone Regen USB
Conditioners'
(http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18580-Science-Thread-Review-of-Audioquest-Jitterbug-and-Uptone-Regen-USB-Conditioners).


Remember that Amir definitely isn't known for being in the "bits are
bits" camp, but here is his summary:

"Simply put, there is no good news here. Both devices degraded the
performance of the DAC a bit and did nothing to improve it."

And in "Conclusions":

"For my money, I think a rock from the garden put on top of my DAC may
do better than either one of these devices. For the price of Regen, you
can buy 10 high-res downloads and I am confident that would bring more
happiness to your music life than this device."



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Julf wrote:
> One more data point on the "USB conditioners" here: 'Whats Best
> Forum:Science Thread-Review of Audioquest Jitterbug and Uptone Regen USB
> Conditioners'
> (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18580-Science-Thread-Review-of-Audioquest-Jitterbug-and-Uptone-Regen-USB-Conditioners).
>
>
> Remember that Amir definitely isn't known for being in the "bits are
> bits" camp, but here is his summary:
>
> "Simply put, there is no good news here. Both devices degraded the
> performance of the DAC a bit and did nothing to improve it."
>
> And in "Conclusions":
>
> "For my money, I think a rock from the garden put on top of my DAC may
> do better than either one of these devices. For the price of Regen, you
> can buy 10 high-res downloads and I am confident that would bring more
> happiness to your music life than this device."

Julf, I have one question: when are you going to be banned from
whatsbestforum.com? :)



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[Julf]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Julf, I have one question: when are you going to be banned from
> whatsbestforum.com? :)

I decided to stop questioning the statements of certain posters, so I
should be OK. :)



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[Archimago]

Thanks for the note Julf!

Amir, the man who could differentiate 16-bit from 24-bit music with his
laptop headphone output and a pair of Etymotic ER4's posting this! Nice
:-).



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[Wombat]

Lets see if the Regen adds 8kHz noise where mone was before :)
But hey, it doesn't matter. It sounds better, so many can't be wrong
blabla...



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[Archimago]

Wombat wrote:
> Lets see if the Regen adds 8kHz noise where none was before :)
> But hey, it doesn't matter. It sounds better, so many can't be wrong!
> Since most report it at CA they surely can i guess.

My bet is that it's just jitter sidebands as Amir suspects. Resonance
peaks should decline not remain the same level as he has shown. Hope he
remeasures with something other than 12kHz.

The funny thing is that jkeny said 8kHz PHY noise wasn't the point of
the Regen here a couple months back... Now he suggests to look for it?

Either way, the Regen *added* this anomaly!



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[Wombat]

Ops, the thread at WBF grew fast. When the Regen was new most reported
improvements even with well designed DACs like the DAC 2. So i doubt in
these reports.
Now they argue about you need long cables, short cables or solid
adapters.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[Julf]

Wombat wrote:
> Ops, the thread at WBF grew fast.

Remember that one of the most important rules of the Web is "don't read
the comments" :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> The funny thing is that jkeny said 8kHz PHY noise wasn't the point of
> the Regen here a couple months back... Now he suggests to look for it?

I don' t think we take him very seriously any more (if we ever did). I
think he is the perfect proof of how some audiophile "designers" don't
actually have to understand any of the science these days - just roughly
follow semiconductor manufacturer application notes.

> Either way, the Regen *added* this anomaly! Perhaps not surprising since
> one is adding another "hub" in between the signal transmission but it
> does bring into question the quality of the hub chipset being used and
> also the question of how this device was engineered and whether it was
> tested to verify that it actually improved anything.

Why would they bother? Believers will believe.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Wombat]

Wow, just wow! It is really embarrassing to see some well-known snake
oilers trying to force CA logic upon another place in the WBF thread.
Beforehead conflicts aside Armir really must have balls of steel to
offer measurements of this product and standing to it. To some of his
business he may be a snitch now.
Archimago would have done also for sure but now even someone from the
dark side...
I hope parts of that business want to distance themself from the growing
count of bad business coming up relying on only gullibility.
I hope this gets followers and more ask for facts instead of blind faith
based following in some technical term spinning prophets.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
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[Archimago]

Wombat wrote:
> Wow, just wow! It is really embarrassing to see some well-known snake
> oilers trying to force CA logic upon another place in the WBF thread.
> Beforehead conflicts aside Armir really must have balls of steel to
> offer measurements of this product and standing to it. To some of his
> business he may be a snitch now.
> Archimago would have done also for sure but now even someone from the
> dark side...
> I hope parts of that business want to distance themself from the growing
> count of bad business coming up relying on only gullibility.
> I hope this gets followers and more ask for facts instead of blind faith
> based following in some technical term spinning prophets.

What an amazing thread indeed Wombat!

I'm generally a nice guy, but sometimes it's best to be blunt. IMO many
of the posters are either -honest and delusional-, lacking perspective
on what the results are saying or truly -psychopathic- in their attack
for what Amir is demonstrating. "Everything in the book" is being thrown
at the defense of the Regen (interestingly not so much for the
JitterBug). Allegations that this is "not science", that he's "measuring
the wrong thing", pompous comments from well-known outspoken audiophiles
clearly more talk than reality-testing ability... Amazing that they
criticize a simple FFT of a 12kHz tone showing that the Regen
technically made the DAC output imperceptibly worse using an expensive
AP machine when admittedly Swenson/UpTone doesn't even have one of those
measurement devices according to one of "SuperDad"'s posts!

For all the charges leveled against Amir, we see absolutely NOTHING on
offer from these Regen -apologists-! Nothing but cliche allegations of
"measuring the wrong thing", or "there are things we can hear but not
measurable", etc... (Seriously folks, suppose we did unsighted
listening, when was the last time you heard a DAC that sounded terrible
to most people but measured really well on modern test batteries!? This
ain't the 70's!)

I think others have already said it well here. Some of these people seem
to be living on a planet orbiting a different sun, see the world through
lenses of a much different prescription, apparently is governed by
different laws of physics and technology that look the same but based on
different principles of operation! This is why I often use the term
-*testimony*-. These debates are built on ideologies akin to subjective
"religious" grounds rather than rational discussion and reality-based
arguments. When faced with measurements like Amir's, the automatic
assumption is that the results are wrong rather than look at themselves
and ask whether they are -sure -of their own impressions. And this is
assuming they are honest rather than consciously in defense of financial
opportunity!

Unless there is something Swenson can show, it's rather clear that
theoretically, the Regen can achieve nothing for a modern asynchronous
USB DAC... Remember, it's a -one-port USB hub-. At best, maybe reduction
of data line and power supply noise (for USB-powered DACs especially,
but Amir already used the Meridian Explorer), and maybe jitter reduction
for old isochronous adaptive USB DACs. The rest seem to be pseudoscience
gibberish "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".

I remind myself often though that we are reading the ravings of a very
small group of audio lovers out there... Also realize that there is
inherent -selection bias- among the few in this world who would know
about the Regen in the first place and bother spending money on this
thing.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Julf]

And incidentally Paul McGowan of PS Audio just praised the jitterbug,
purely based on subjective listening. :)

'Paul's Post: Jitterbugging/'
(http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/jitterbugging/)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Julf]

Julf wrote:
> And incidentally Paul McGowan of PS Audio just praised the jitterbug,
> purely based on subjective listening. :)
>
> 'Paul's Post: Jitterbugging/'
> (http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/jitterbugging/)

And as a contrast, the latest 'Dr. AIX post by Mark Waldrep'
(http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5284):

"I remain unconvinced after overhearing this anecdotal exchange and my
own experience. I have also had additional conversations with
professional engineers and designers that doubt the effectiveness of
these devices."

And, rather appropriately, in the second half:

"The person that I spoke to told me that the owner of the company
confided in him that he simply lies about the sonic improvements and his
ability to hear the difference. Really? He was unabashed about the fact
that in order to sell more of his high priced gear, he fabricates
information about the performance of his units and what he hears. Am I
surprised? I guess not…but I am very disappointed.

Can we trust anyone to tell us the truth about his or her products?"



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[garym]

Julf wrote:
>
> Can we trust anyone to tell us the truth about his or her products?"

No. (-Cf.- VW)



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
(all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
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[ralphpnj]

You gotta love the nerve of some of these shameless vendors and the way
that they double down on some of their nonsense.

For example, the boogieman known as jitter.

Jitter, from what I've gathered by reviewing the issue is something that
really does exist and it can be measured. So far so good. What is not so
clear is whether or not jitter can be heard. Oh sure in some of the
worst cases of poorly designed and made USB ports the amount of measured
jitter is very clear to see on a graph but it is still not clear that
this jitter is audible. But never mind that since jitter is clearly
BAD.

In the case of the newer asynchronous USB DACs jitter, as shown by
measurements, has been very clearly reduced and once again, it is not so
clear is whether or not this remaining jitter can be heard. But never
mind that since jitter is clearly BAD.

Now several vendors have come up with products that claim to reduce or
even eliminate whatever trace amounts remain and thus vastly improve the
sound.

As I said you gotta love the nerve.

USB jitter (measurable but very likely not audible) > asynchronous USB
jitter (reduced and even less likely to be audible) > Treated
asynchronous USB jitter (reduced even further and now maybe, just maybe
completely inaudible)

So I guess all this means that there are many levels of inaudible or to
put it another way, different kinds of zero - zero > -zero > super
-zero

Who knew?



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
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[Archimago]

Julf wrote:
> And as a contrast, the latest 'Dr. AIX post by Mark Waldrep'
> (http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5284):
>
> "I remain unconvinced after overhearing this anecdotal exchange and my
> own experience. I have also had additional conversations with
> professional engineers and designers that doubt the effectiveness of
> these devices."
>
> And, rather appropriately, in the second half:
>
> "The person that I spoke to told me that the owner of the company
> confided in him that he simply lies about the sonic improvements and his
> ability to hear the difference. Really? He was unabashed about the fact
> that in order to sell more of his high priced gear, he fabricates
> information about the performance of his units and what he hears. Am I
> surprised? I guess not…but I am very disappointed.
>
> Can we trust anyone to tell us the truth about his or her products?"

Well, then... If true, *-psychopathy-* it is.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[SBGK]

So sad. Where did it all go wrong for the regen folks, 2500 sales and
now they'll probably have to return all the money as people realise the
measurements prove they are hearing imaginary improvements.



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
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[Julf]

SBGK wrote:
> So sad. Where did it all go wrong for the regen folks, 2500 sales and
> now they'll probably have to return all the money as people realise the
> measurements prove they are hearing imaginary improvements.

That is the beauty of snake oil - you are trading on faith and
gullibility, so facts won't make any difference.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[SBGK]

Still, I'm reminded of Kevin Keegan's rant at Alex Ferguson when I read
the comments about regen in this thread, it's definitely the
objectivists who are getting emotionally fraught.



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
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[Julf]

SBGK wrote:
> Still, I'm reminded of Kevin Keegan's rant at Alex Ferguson when I read
> the comments about regen in this thread, it's definitely the
> objectivists who are getting emotionally fraught.

So any reaction to snake oil merchants being caught lying is being
"emotionally fraught". Yes, fits the program...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[SBGK]

Julf wrote:
> So any reaction to snake oil merchants being caught lying is being
> "emotionally fraught". Yes, fits the program...

Are you saying uptone are lying snake oil merchants ?



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[Julf]

SBGK wrote:
> Are you saying uptone are lying snake oil merchants ?

I was referring to this:

Julf wrote:
> "The person that I spoke to told me that the owner of the company
> confided in him that he simply lies about the sonic improvements and his
> ability to hear the difference. Really? He was unabashed about the fact
> that in order to sell more of his high priced gear, he fabricates
> information about the performance of his units and what he hears. Am I
> surprised? I guess not…but I am very disappointed.
>
> Can we trust anyone to tell us the truth about his or her products?"



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Julf]

SBGK wrote:
> Are you saying uptone are lying snake oil merchants ?

With regards to uptone, all I am saying is that I would love to see
actual evidence to support the claims.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[SBGK]

Julf wrote:
> With regards to uptone, all I am saying is that I would love to see
> actual evidence to support the claims.

Yes, it would be a bit of a game changer if they were to do that,
interesting times.



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
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[jkeny]

SBGK wrote:
> Yes, it would be a bit of a game changer if they were to do that,
> interesting times.
Don't hold your breath for measurements in the analogue domain that
correlate to sonic improvement for devices that don't have gross audible
differences.
John Westlake has already shown measured differences in cleaning up the
USB signal & tightening the USB packet timing.
Amir, BE718 insist that DAC analogue output is the only place to do
measurements & have shown higher amplitude 8KHz spikes (& their
harmonics). This is exactly what is to be expected when the jitter of
the USB frames & microframes is reduced. Microframe timing of 125uS
gives rise to a frequency of 8KHz (& harmonics) when the logic gates in
the USB receiver fire at this interval causing a ground noise spike or
logic induced modulation (LIM) as it is known by.
So we seem to have measurements of the effectiveness of the Regen ion
the USB signal & further along the chain, on the DAC output.

Can this be directly correlated to audible differences? Obviously, not
but how many subtle differences, can?

I wouldn't be surprised if the next demand will be that we don't
actually listen to the DAC output so the analogue signal should be
measured further downstream - hell measurements should only be measured
from the speaker as that is what we listen to, right?


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[Julf]

jkeny wrote:
> Amir, BE718 insist that DAC analogue output is the only place to do
> measurements & have shown higher amplitude 8KHz spikes (& their
> harmonics). This is exactly what is to be expected when the jitter of
> the USB frames & microframes is reduced. Microframe timing of 125uS
> gives rise to a frequency of 8KHz (& harmonics) when the logic gates in
> the USB receiver fire at this interval causing a ground noise spike or
> logic induced modulation (LIM) as it is known by.

So cleaning up the USB timing results in more 8 KHz noise?

> I wouldn't be surprised if the next demand will be that we don't
> actually listen to the DAC output so the analogue signal should be
> measured further downstream - hell measurements should only be measured
> from the speaker as that is what we listen to, right?

I guess that by that logic, we should measure at the neurons in our
brain.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[jkeny]

Julf wrote:
> So cleaning up the USB timing results in more 8 KHz noise?Sure, it can - if you understand how USB high-speed protocol works & you
understand LIM, you can understand this.

> I guess that by that logic, we should measure at the neurons in our
> brain.There you go, now you are using logic - it's already being done in
psychoacoustic research - fMRI & MEG testing are some of the favoured
measurement tools now being used - it's far more reliable than asking if
someone heard a difference!


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[Wombat]

jkeny wrote:
> Sure, but your characterising it as noise is disingenuous - it's a
> hint/trace of what's happening at the USB receiver - if you understand
> how USB high-speed protocol works & you understand LIM, you can
> understand this.
>
> There you go, now you are using logic - it's already being done in
> psychoacoustic research - fMRI & MEG testing are some of the favoured
> measurement tools now being used - it's far more reliable than asking if
> someone heard a difference!

It is fascinating seing you argue on the net over and over 1000s of post
that helped no one with nothing but asking question over question. Seems
at WBF they slowly realize it also.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
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[Julf]

jkeny wrote:
> Sure, but your characterising it as noise is disingenuous - it's a
> hint/trace of what's happening at the USB receiver - if you understand
> how USB high-speed protocol works & you understand LIM, you can
> understand this.

I guess using the proper technical term is disingenuous in your book. So
what would you call an unwanted added signal that is not related to the
original signal?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[jkeny]

Julf wrote:
> I guess using the proper technical term is disingenuous in your book. So
> what would you call an unwanted added signal that is not related to the
> original signal?
Well as a measureist/objectivist you should have no problem with the
8KHz & harmonics spikes as only 8Khz & 16KHz are within the audible band
& they are considered to be far, far below audibility by those who claim
to want to see evidence of audible differences on the DAC analogue outs
for "proof" that such a device makes an audible difference


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[Julf]

jkeny wrote:
> Well as a measureist/objectivist you should have no problem with the
> 8KHz & harmonics spikes

What I do have (and as myself, not as any -ist label you might want to
try to stick on me) I have a problem with you suggesting added noise,
albeit inaudible, is proof of the *improvement* these devices are
supposed to make.

Do you really consider adding a 8 KHz signal, however small, an
improvement?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[jkeny]

Julf wrote:
> What I do have (and as myself, not as any -ist label you might want to
> try to stick on me) I have a problem with you suggesting added noise,
> albeit inaudible, is proof of the *improvement* these devices are
> supposed to make.
>
> Do you really consider adding a 8 KHz signal, however small, an
> improvement?
Already answered, no need to flog it to death.


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[Julf]

jkeny wrote:
> Already answered, no need to flog it to death.

Indeed. Considering it was dead in the water from the start, any
flogging would be over the top.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

jkeny wrote:
> Well as a measureist/objectivist you should have no problem with the
> 8KHz & harmonics spikes as only 8Khz & 16KHz are within the audible band
> & they are considered to be far, far below audibility by those who claim
> to want to see evidence of audible differences on the DAC analogue outs
> for "proof" that such a device makes an audible difference.
>
> My position on it as an "unwanted added signal" is that if it turns out
> to be the result of a cleaner, better timed,less jittery USB signal at
> the input to the DAC & this is how USB receivers handle an in-spec usb
> signal, then the DAC needs to deal with this USb receiver output in a
> correct manner & find a way to eliminate it, if it bothers some. But, if
> it's below audibility, according to many, why would they bother?
>
> Of course I could be wrong in my interpretation of these 8KHz spurs -
> more testing is required, I reckon

I stated this in an earlier post about audiophiles believing that zero
is just not enough, hence my term super minus zero. I now see that I was
not being as funny as I originally thought since this concept can also
be expressed as reducing something that is inaudible to super minus
inaudible, which of course is awesome!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

jkeny wrote:
> Well as a measureist/objectivist you should have no problem with the
> 8KHz & harmonics spikes as only 8Khz & 16KHz are within the audible band
> & they are considered to be far, far below audibility by those who claim
> to want to see evidence of audible differences on the DAC analogue outs
> for "proof" that such a device makes an audible difference.
>
> My position on it as an "unwanted added signal" is that if it turns out
> to be the result of a cleaner, better timed,less jittery USB signal at
> the input to the DAC & this is how USB receivers handle an in-spec usb
> signal, then the DAC needs to deal with this USb receiver output in a
> correct manner & find a way to eliminate it, if it bothers some. But, if
> it's below audibility, according to many, why would they bother?
>
> Of course I could be wrong in my interpretation of these 8KHz spurs -
> more testing is required, I reckon

John, first things first, while you could be right that the 8kHz tone
(+16kHz harmonic) is related to the USB2 PHY, where is the measurement
that this is so?

Amir could still be correct that these are +/-4kHz sidebands from his
jitter test couldn't he? I didn't see him measuring a 11kHz tone or even
show whether digital silence results in this 8kHz tone. Perhaps I missed
this in the long thread...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[bonze]

SBGK wrote:
> Still, I'm reminded of Kevin Keegan's rant at Alex Ferguson when I read
> the comments about regen in this thread, it's definitely the
> objectivists who are getting emotionally fraught.
Odd, I don't see anyone in this thread that is "emotionally fraught"
except yourself. :rolleyes:



LMS Version: 7.9
TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3 - WHS 2011
2x Touch, 3x SB3
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[Pascal Hibon]

Julf wrote:
> And incidentally Paul McGowan of PS Audio just praised the jitterbug,
> purely based on subjective listening. :)
>
> 'Paul's Post: Jitterbugging/'
> (http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/jitterbugging/)

Very funny. John Westlake has posted a reply on pink fish media about
the jitterbug. He wanted to do some measurements on it and it turns out
that the jitterbug drops the 5 volt supply too much for the bus powered
DAC to operate. Wasn't the jitterbug trying to clean up the power supply
for bus powered DAC's? Well, it works: no more noise coming from the DAC
with the jitterbug in the chain :-)



'M-DAC' (http://www.audiolab.co.uk/M-DAC%20Series.aspx?lang=En) ->
'Focal MP1200' (http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB3, 1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio and 2 x SB Touch - all wireless
2 x Wandboard Dual, 1 x Wandboard Quad
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[Julf]

Pascal Hibon wrote:
> Very funny. John Westlake has posted a reply on pink fish media about
> the jitterbug. He wanted to do some measurements on it and it turns out
> that the jitterbug drops the 5 volt supply too much for the bus powered
> DAC to operate. Wasn't the jitterbug trying to clean up the power supply
> for bus powered DAC's? Well, it works: no more noise coming from the DAC
> with the jitterbug in the chain :-)

Ah, yes, conforming to standard requirements has never been part of the
audiophile ethos :)

How is PFM these days?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Pascal Hibon]

Julf wrote:
>
> How is PFM these days?

To be honest, I only follow a couple of threads over there. The main
thread I follow is the one on JohnW's new DAC (the new M-DAC); but just
out of curiosity. I stumbled upon the Jitterbug / Regen thread by
accident. Funny how the manufacturer of one of those devices vents his
opinions and treads potential customers. As a commercial person he
should know better than that... Let's just say there are to many "non
scientific based" opinions posted on PFM which I don't care for (even in
the main posts I follow). On the positive side, it is good to see that
the audio world is still very active in the UK as opposed to some other
countries.



'M-DAC' (http://www.audiolab.co.uk/M-DAC%20Series.aspx?lang=En) ->
'Focal MP1200' (http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB3, 1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio and 2 x SB Touch - all wireless
2 x Wandboard Dual, 1 x Wandboard Quad
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[Julf]

Pascal Hibon wrote:
> To be honest, I only follow a couple of threads over there. The main
> thread I follow is the one on JohnW's new DAC (the new M-DAC); but just
> out of curiosity. I stumbled upon the Jitterbug / Regen thread by
> accident. Funny how the manufacturer of one of those devices vents his
> opinions and treads potential customers. As a commercial person he
> should know better than that...

I am sure he could get some friendly advice from jkeny :)

> Let's just say there are to many "non scientific based" opinions posted
> on PFM which I don't care for (even in the main posts I follow). On the
> positive side, it is good to see that the audio world is still very
> active in the UK as opposed to some other countries.

Agree, and it is a great source of information on older stuff
(especially from the "flat earth" period), but I haven't had the time
and patience to keep up with the aggressive voodoo and hearsay.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Archimago]

Jkeny. Please respond to the question above... Has it been demonstrated
that the 8kHz and 16kHz tone are indeed not just sidebands of the 12kHz
primary 24-bit J-test signal shown by Amir???

Unless shown to be the case, no need to speculate about the 8kHz PHY
noise origin and speculations of this being an "improvement" in jitter
performance.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[Julf]

This morning's ornithological observation: seagulls. Make a lot of
noise, enjoy shifting garbage, shit all over the place, and fly away
when confronted.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[jkeny]

Archimago wrote:
> Jkeny. Please respond to the question above... Has it been demonstrated
> that the 8kHz and 16kHz tone are indeed not just sidebands of the 12kHz
> primary 24-bit J-test signal shown by Amir???
>
> Unless shown to be the case, no need to speculate about the 8kHz PHY
> noise origin and speculations of this being an "improvement" in jitter
> performance.
As I said in my post "Of course I could be wrong in my interpretation of
these 8KHz spurs - more testing is required, I reckon"

You have measured 8Khz & harmonics spurs in USB audio, ArnyK has
measured 8KHz & harmonics spurs in USB audio DACs, BE718 has measured
8KHz spurs in his USB audio.
What are you asking me? - are Amir's 8KHZ & harmonics shown in his
measurements due to the same mechanism as these others? Unless he does a
measurement to tease this out, we won't know for sure but I can tell
where I's place money!

Anyway, it appears that there is a ground loop condition set up by the
ground lift resistors in the Regen that is being picked up in any test
setup that isn't fastidious about avoiding ground loops & it appears
that this is why we are seeing these spurs in some measurements & not
others. It appears that the 8KHz is coming from the USB hub chip's
handling of the 125uS microframes but with better PS treatment this will
probably disappear?


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[Archimago]

jkeny wrote:
> As I said in my post "Of course I could be wrong in my interpretation of
> these 8KHz spurs - more testing is required, I reckon" Not sure why you
> need a response when the answer is there?
>
> But I'll have a go, anyway :)
>
> You have measured 8Khz & harmonics spurs in USB audio, ArnyK has
> measured 8KHz & harmonics spurs in USB audio DACs, BE718 has measured
> 8KHz spurs in his USB audio.
> What you are asking me is - are Amir's 8KHZ & harmonics shown in his
> measurements due to the same mechanism as these others? Unless he does a
> measurement to tease this out, we won't know for sure but I can tell
> where I would put money!
>
> Anyway, it appears that there is a ground loop condition set up by the
> ground lift resistors in the Regen that is being picked up in any test
> setup that isn't fastidious about avoiding ground loops & it appears
> that this is why we are seeing these spurs in some measurements & not
> others. It appears that the 8KHz is coming from the USB hub chip's
> handling of the 125uS microframes but with better PS treatment this will
> probably disappear?

Okay, thanks John. No worries, just wanted to get a read on your
thoughts on this 8kHz phenomenon. True, the 8kHz tone can be measured in
some circumstances with gear susceptible... Will need to see if Amir can
run through another test to differentiate this from his original thought
that it's sideband spikes and potential jitter rather than microframe
noise.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[jkeny]

Archimago wrote:
> Okay, thanks John. No worries, just wanted to get a read on your
> thoughts on this 8kHz phenomenon. True, the 8kHz tone can be measured in
> some circumstances with gear susceptible... Will need to see if Amir can
> run through another test to differentiate this from his original thought
> that it's sideband spikes and potential jitter rather than microframe
> noise.
So, in essence the whole 8KHz spurs thing is a side issue which came
about because of Amir's measurements & his rush to conclusions.
Even though he & BE718 reported a small audible improvement & put it
down to placebo, there is nothing in his or BE's measurements that
points to the audible improvements that people are reporting with the
Regen.

Now, I'm sure that a some people are hearing improvements because they
are using USB powered DACs & the Regens 5V supply is an improvement over
Vbus supply (I don't know what percentage fall into this category?)

The really interesting part, for me, is what audible benefits the
improvements in USB signal quality are providing. This improvement has
been measured & can be seen in John Westlakes' plots.
Amir's measurements are by no means comprehensive which he states
himself so the audible improvements remain unmeasured & as John Westlake
states, will probably not be revealed in analogue measurements.

Archi, I know you are a great believer in measurements - have you ever
heard an improvement in audio that you could not measure?


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[Archimago]

jkeny wrote:
>
> The really interesting part, for me, is what audible benefits the
> improvements in USB signal quality are providing. This improvement has
> been measured & can be seen in John Westlakes' plots.
> Amir's measurements are by no means comprehensive which he states
> himself so the audible improvements remain unmeasured & as John Westlake
> states, will probably not be revealed in analogue measurements.
>
> Archi, I know you are a great believer in measurements - have you ever
> heard an improvement in audio that you could not measure?

Hi John.

Let's focus on the comments above.

Firstly are we talking about '-improved eye-pattern-'
(http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2680112#post2680112)?
I see that Westlake has been 'critical of the Regen's stock SMPS'
(http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2689811&postcount=192)
as well as demonstration of high 8kHz noise current in the USB power
pins! So there doesn't appear to be any improvement in noise if one is
arguing about the 5V line with the stock device.

1. So, if we discount the SMPS as not likely to be improving sound
quality and therefore the majority of potential sonic improvement is
from the more precise eye-pattern, -by what mechanism do you think this
would happen-?

I'm happy to stick with the "bits are bits" argument and suggest that if
there is no data corruption from a computer's USB data line, then it is
unlikely there will be a sonic difference at all. Sure, maybe the
cleaner Regen data line out has less noise - but I would expect the 8kHz
tone to be measurably reduced not increased if this is part of the noise
reduction. And as for timing accuracy because of better eye-pattern
precision, well maybe if I run an old isochronous DAC this could help
with lower jitter... But asynchronous USB DACs are ubiquitous these days
so I don't see a problem.

2. John Westlake says differences won't be revealed in the analogue
measurements - *-WHY-*? Why is he not wrong? It is the analogue outputs
we're sending to the preamp/amp/speakers is it not? Unless there's some
other perhaps magical mechanism by which sonic information is getting to
my amp and speakers, I would very much like to know how this is
achieved.

3. The general question... "I know you are a great believer in
measurements - have you ever heard an improvement in audio that you
could not measure?" That's a hard one to answer because I generally
don't question every sound I hear or analyze it to death! I post and
measure for fun and hopefully achieve some understanding into my hobby.
I see contentious -beliefs -over the years stated as almost foregone
conclusions and thought it would be fun to explore these "uncertainties"
in a blog. I accept that there are things *very difficult* to measure...
For example, it's not possible for a typical hobbyist to measure all the
parameters of one's speaker system although one can get a grasp of some
of that. (I'm happy to read what Olive and Toole have to say!) But there
are things which I don't think are all that difficult to understand -
cables, DACs, bitperfect outputs "sounding different", OS's sounding
different come to mind and can be explored. And in these cases, no, I
don't think I've noticed anything all that mind-blowing, deviates from
scientific thinking of how the engineering works, nor subjectively have
I experienced an "improvement" or "deterioration" that didn't correspond
to measurable effects.

I would place the claims about the Regen (and Jitterbug) in the same
category of tweaks that are unlikely of benefit... And even if they are
of benefit in certain situations, would likely be because the DAC is
poorly engineered in the first place. I appreciate that some folks are
excited about the product and the testimonies are impressive on some
forums/threads, but after all these months, all these discussions, and
no clear concept presented for mechanism of action and in fact some
results questioning whether it's even beneficial, I really cannot get
excited at the low prospect of benefit in the form of improving fidelity
of one's USB DAC.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[jkeny]

Archimago wrote:
> Hi John.
>
> Let's focus on the comments above.
>
> Firstly are we talking about '-improved eye-pattern-'
> (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2680112#post2680112)?
> I see that Westlake has been 'critical of the Regen's stock SMPS'
> (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2689811&postcount=192)
> as well as demonstration of high 8kHz noise current in the USB power
> pins! So there doesn't appear to be any improvement in noise if one is
> arguing about the 5V line with the stock device.Despite these two aspects, the plots of the 5V power out of the Regen
show it is far cleaner than the Vbus - maybe you are forgetting about
the voltage reg?

> 1. So, if we discount the SMPS as not likely to be improving sound
> quality and therefore the majority of potential sonic improvement is
> from the more precise eye-pattern, -by what mechanism do you think this
> would happen-?As I said, the 5V does account for some proportion of the improvements &
as I also said, I'm interested in finding out how said USB signal
improvements may be audibly improving the analogue out signal.
I could give you my conjecture but I feel it is only going to start the
usual tit-for-tat argument so I'm happy for you to have your beliefs & I
mine

> I'm happy to stick with the "bits are bits" argument and suggest that if
> there is no data corruption from a computer's USB data line, then it is
> unlikely there will be a sonic difference at all. Sure, maybe the
> cleaner Regen data line out has less noise - but I would expect the 8kHz
> tone to be measurably reduced not increased if this is part of the noise
> reduction. And as for timing accuracy because of better eye-pattern
> precision, well maybe if I run an old isochronous DAC this could help
> with lower jitter... But asynchronous USB DACs are ubiquitous these days
> so I don't see a problem.Sure

> 2. John Westlake says differences won't be revealed in the analogue
> measurements - *-WHY-*? Why is he not wrong? It is the analogue outputs
> we're sending to the preamp/amp/speakers is it not? When I disconnect
> the analogue outputs, do I not get silence? Unless there's some other
> perhaps magical mechanism by which sonic information is getting to my
> amp and speakers, I would very much like to know how this is achieved.Well, I guess you either think he is mistaken or lying. I doubt either &
trust his experience

> 3. The general question... "I know you are a great believer in
> measurements - have you ever heard an improvement in audio that you
> could not measure?" That's a hard one to answer because I generally
> don't question every sound I hear or analyze it to death! I post and
> measurements for fun and hopefully achieve some understanding into my
> hobby. I see contentious -beliefs -over the years stated as almost
> foregone conclusions and thought it would be fun to explore these
> "uncertainties" in a blog. I accept that there are things *very
> difficult* to measure... For example, it's not possible for a typical
> hobbyist to measure all the parameters of one's speaker system although
> one can get a grasp of some of that. (I'm happy to read what Olive and
> Toole have to say!) But there are things which I don't think are all
> that difficult to understand - cables, DACs, bitperfect outputs
> "sounding different", OS's sounding different come to mind and can be
> explored. And in these cases, no, I don't think I've noticed anything
> all that mind-blowing, deviates from scientific thinking of how the
> engineering works, nor subjectively have I experienced an "improvement"
> or "deterioration" that didn't correspond to measurable effects. If
> anything, it's the opposite - I find things on measurement that I didn't
> expect upon listening (eg. the JPlay issue with Kernel Streaming at
> 24/48, excessive SMPS noise with the Tascam UH-7000).Funny, I've asked the same question to BE78, another believer in
measurements & he gave almost exactly the same answer - that being a
roundabout way of saying "no, I've never heard a difference that I
couldn't measure as being in the audible region on analogue out"

Do you measure first & then listen, I wonder?

> I would place the claims about the Regen (and Jitterbug) in the same
> category of tweaks that are unlikely of benefit... And even if they are
> of benefit in certain situations, would likely be because the DAC is
> poorly engineered in the first place. I appreciate that some folks are
> excited about the products and the testimonies are impressive on some
> forums/threads, but after all these months, all these discussions, and
> no clear concept presented for mechanism of action and in fact some
> results questioning whether it's even beneficial, I really cannot get
> excited at the low prospect of benefit in the form of improving fidelity
> of one's USB DAC. I thought we discussed months ago Swenson was supposed
> to present his objective results...
Have you listened to one?


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[Archimago]

jkeny wrote:
> Despite these two aspects, the plots of the 5V power out of the Regen
> show it is far cleaner than the Vbus - maybe you are forgetting about
> the voltage reg?
>
> As I said, the 5V does account for some proportion of the improvements &
> as I also said, I'm interested in finding out how said USB signal
> improvements may be audibly improving the analogue out signal.
> I could give you my conjecture but I feel it is only going to start the
> usual tit-for-tat argument so I'm happy for you to have your beliefs & I
> mine

Okay, maybe...

>
> Well, I guess you either think he is mistaken or lying. I doubt either &
> trust his experience
>

Don't know the guy and have no reason to automatically think anyone's
lying so will go with the "probably mistaken" option for now unless
reasons show up otherwise.

>
> Funny, I've asked the same question to BE78, another believer in
> measurements & he gave almost exactly the same answer - that being a
> roundabout way of saying "no, I've never heard a difference that I
> couldn't measure as being in the audible region on analogue out"
>
> Do you measure first & then listen, I wonder?
>

Nope, I generally listen first then measure. For example, the recent
Light Harmonic Geek Out V2 isn't much to look at but I did listen 1st
and posted positive initial impressions then did the measurements which
ended up indeed being excellent. I've tried for years to listen for
difference between WAV vs. FLAC, silver vs. copper interconnects, or
different SPDIF cables... Never noticed a difference and was overall
"happy" with generic cables and bitperfect software. Admittedly I felt
insecure and perhaps even envious about this since all these other
audiophiles seem to be experiencing something I wasn't. The strange
thing was I thought my hearing was better than many because I could hear
anomalies and helped a few fix problems (like one of them was listening
to his music all along using MP3 transcoding!). This is all before even
bothering to measure anything.

>
> Have you listened to one?
>

To the Regen, no, not yet. I will if/when a friend gets his. Like I
said, I'm not too interested given the lack of rationale for this to
make much if any difference... Been around too long since the days of
trying to cryo cables and green pens for CDs to keep trying unlikely
stuff based on pure testimony.



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[jkeny]

Archimago wrote:
> Okay, maybe...
>
> Don't know the guy and have no reason to automatically think anyone's
> lying so will go with the "probably mistaken" option for now unless
> reasons show up otherwise.Oh, I see - John Westlake is a very well known audio designer & E'ee
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Westlake

> Nope, I generally listen first then measure. For example, the recent
> Light Harmonic Geek Out V2 isn't much to look at but I did listen 1st
> and 'posted positive initial impressions'
> (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/08/preview-look-at-light-harmonic-geek-out.html)
> then did the 'measurements'
> (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/09/measurements-light-harmonic-geek-out-v2.html)
> which ended up indeed being excellent. I've tried for years to listen
> for difference between WAV vs. FLAC, silver vs. copper interconnects, or
> different SPDIF cables... Never noticed a difference and was overall
> "happy" with generic cables and bitperfect software. Admittedly I felt
> insecure and perhaps even envious about this since all these other
> audiophiles seem to be experiencing something I wasn't. I'm glad I'm
> feeling much more secure about the claims these days. The strange thing
> was I thought my hearing was better than many because I could hear
> anomalies and helped a few fix problems (like one of them was listening
> to his music all along using MP3 transcoding!). This is all before I
> started to measure anything.Right, so I'm even more quizzical why you have never heard some audible
difference that you couldn't measure?
I had similar thoughts about USB cables - lots of people reporting
audible differences with different cables - the ones I tried, I couldn't
hear any diff (I didn't go to the really expensive ones) so I decided to
investigate further starting with a USB adapter i.e no cable & I could
hear a difference

> To the Regen, no, not yet. I will if/when a friend gets his. Like I
> said, I'm not too interested given the lack of rationale for this to
> make much if any difference... Been around too long since the days of
> trying to cryo cables and green pens for CDs to keep trying unlikely
> stuff based on pure testimony.Sure


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[Julf]

jkeny wrote:
> Oh, I see - John Westlake is a very well known audio designer & E'ee
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Westlake

Even the Pope is fallible...

> I had similar thoughts about USB cables - lots of people reporting
> audible differences with different cables - the ones I tried, I couldn't
> hear any diff (I didn't go to the really expensive ones) so I decided to
> investigate further starting with a USB adapter i.e no cable & I could
> hear a difference

So what measurements did you do to see if the differences might be
measurable?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[jkeny]

Julf wrote:
> Even the Pope is fallible...Funny you equate a belief system to a measurements system :)

> So what measurements did you do to see if the differences might be
> measurable?I didn't


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[Julf]

jkeny wrote:
> Funny you equate a belief system to a measurements system :)

That is all in your interpretation. Replace "Even the Pope" with
"Everyone" if that works better for you.

> I didn't

I thought the discussion was about hearing differences that can't be
measured. So unless you actually measured, I fail to see the relevance.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[jkeny]

Julf wrote:
> That is all in your interpretation. Replace "Even the Pope" with
> "Everyone" if that works better for you.
>
>
> I thought the discussion was about hearing differences that can't be
> measured. So unless you actually measured, I fail to see the relevance.
I'm not interested in the trivial arguments


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[Julf]

jkeny wrote:
> I'm not interested in the trivial arguments

Really? Actions speak louder than words... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Archimago]

jkeny wrote:
> Oh, I see - John Westlake is a very well known audio designer & E'ee
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Westlake
>

That's nice. -But he hasn't explained how something can make an audible
difference but not show up on the analogue outputs of a DAC...-

>
> Right, so I'm even more quizzical why you have never heard some audible
> difference that you couldn't measure?
> I had similar thoughts about USB cables - lots of people reporting
> audible differences with different cables - the ones I tried, I couldn't
> hear any diff (I didn't go to the really expensive ones) so I decided to
> investigate further starting with a USB adapter i.e no cable & I could
> hear a difference
>

Okay, so we both have reservations about audibility of USB cables.
That's cool.

I have been listening to and measured many DACs with many computers and
associated USB ports/adaptors. Even tried 'USB-ethernet extender'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/12/measurements-usb-cable-extension-with.html)
for a year and the 'Corning USB3 optical extender'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/05/measurements-corning-usb-3-optical.html)
for the last 6 months or so... Other than reducing the 8kHz PHY noise
interfering with my analogue pass-through in my pre-amp which I could
demonstrate was suppressed with the Corning, the DAC outputs have been
audibly and measurably fine.

Curious, could you tell me which adapter you thought was very poor? And
how much difference you figure the adapter makes in the final output
from the same DAC (presumably a modern asynchronous USB device with
known low jitter)? Suppose Westlake never explains why he thinks the
difference is not measurable in the analogue domain, do you agree with
this statement and how do you reconcile that with your own experience of
what you hear?



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Wombat]

This Regen mesurement thread nicely shows how parts of the busines
work.
I quote a post by BE718 at WBF:
So what you are saying Bob is that we should ignore the very real
measureable noise the regen created. We should ignore the very real and
measureable RF noise spuing from the switch mode power supply. We should
ignore that myself and Amir both found no real subjective improvements.
We should ignore the fact that no-one, not even the designers have been
able to measure any improvement.

However because a few say they think it's better, it therefore must be
better...........OK :)

EXACTLY! There are people working hard with many posts on different
forums only to keep that message of the last sentense alive to make
sense out of their own products ;)



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[Archimago]

Wombat wrote:
>
> EXACTLY! There are people working hard with many posts on different
> forums only to keep that message of the last sentense alive to make
> sense out of their own products ;)

I don't think it's just their products. It's a need to keep the whole
*CLASS *of products alive!

When there are classes of products where testimonial support is the only
"evidence" of benefit/worth, potential loss of -faith -would not be
tolerable and must be defended against. Although perhaps early days, I
believe and hope that what we're witnessing are hints of a change in the
audiophile hobby for the better.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Julf]

SBGK wrote:
> why would they do that if the dac was immune to any gremlins fed to it ?

Probably for the same reason they already do all kinds of tweaks and add
all kinds of accessories that have no effect.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[arnyk]

Julf wrote:
> I agree with not drinking and typing, but how can you *read* an
> audiophile forum and not drink?

Consider the source. ;-)


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[arnyk]

cliveb wrote:
> Ralph, a more pertinent set of questions would be:
> I know you have a sense of humour, Arny, so I'm surprised that Ralph's
> earlier joke post seems to have gone over your head.

It appears that the fact that I correctly interpreted Ralph's post as
being a response to Mnyb's questionable post may have missed you. IOW I
treated it like it was a humorous (sarcastic) response.


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[ralphpnj]

arnyk wrote:
> It appears that the fact that I correctly interpreted Ralph's post as
> being a response to Mnyb's questionable post may have missed you. IOW I
> treated it like it was a humorous (sarcastic) response.

Arny I have no idea what you're talking about. I wrote my post about
tags simply as a way to inject some humor into a thread that was fast
becoming a internet forum version of this Monty Python sketch (but
without the humor):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

On the other hand I started this thread to hopefully get a clear answer
to something that has been troubling and confusing me for quite some
time, which is the issue of jitter, as it is currently being "treated"
in the audiophile press. And it would appear that as usual the FUD
(fear, uncertainty and doubt) is being quite liberally tossed around.
Whenever I suspect FUD I try my best to educate myself as best I can on
the subject so that I can better cut through the FUD and get to the
truth. To paraphrase a well known advertising phrase:

In the case of high end audio an educated consumer is their WORST
customer.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Mnyb]

Ok ill be clearer ( english is not my first language ).

Jitter is not really a problem anymore . Others in here gave a much
better technical answer.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[arnyk]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Arny I have no idea what you're talking about. I wrote my post about
> tags simply as a way to inject some humor into a thread

I find it interesting that I can tell people outright that I saw the
humor, and they still criticize me for not seeing it.

What is unclear about:

"IOW I treated it like it was a humorous (sarcastic) response."


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[ralphpnj]

arnyk wrote:
> It appears that the fact that I correctly interpreted Ralph's post as
> being a response to Mnyb's questionable post may have missed you. IOW I
> treated it like it was a humorous (sarcastic) response.

arnyk wrote:
> I find it interesting that I can tell people outright that I saw the
> humor, and they still criticize me for not seeing it.
>
> What is unclear about:
>
> "IOW I treated it like it was a humorous (sarcastic) response."

Arny, there was absolutely nothing unclear about "IOW I treated it like
it was a humorous (sarcastic) response."

However what I was referring to when I wrote "I have no idea what you're
talking about" was the first quote above: "It appears that the fact that
I correctly interpreted Ralph's post as being a response to Mnyb's
questionable post may have missed you." Perhaps you can explain what
this means.

Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to pick a fight with you since I
am for the most part on your side with respect to the vast majority of
audiophile claims, claims that, more often than not, run counter to
science. I know that you have been fighting the good fight against the
anti-science audiophile crowd for longer than you might care to admit
and that you have gone into the lion's den more than once. And as is
always the case when one tries to speak truth to power, you have had
your character attacked and ridiculed.

That is the nature of the beast when it comes to truth, power and money
- many of these false audiophile claims are used as a basis for selling
a vastly overpriced and completely useless product and making lots and
lots of money. With money one is then able to buy protection, which in
the audiophile world is not some henchman willing to break a few bones,
but rather a few self appointed "experts" willing to write and publish
the most outrageous fictions in support of both the false claims and the
overpriced "solutions".

Now that I have a better understanding of jitter I can sit back and
watch as the audiophile "experts", working hand in hand with various
manufacturers, create a whole market segment dedicated to solving a
problem which doesn't exist. It's sad, funny and infuriating, all at the
same time.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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