Discussion:
Why cannot you make Transporter support 176.4 and 192Khz/24?
michael123
2010-03-23 20:23:26 UTC
Permalink
I see that AK4396 supports up to 192/24.
Isn't the limit of 96/24 artificial?


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snarlydwarf
2010-03-23 21:21:16 UTC
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michael123;527539 Wrote:
> I see that AK4396 supports up to 192/24.
> Isn't the limit of 96/24 artificial?

No, it's a limit of the speed of the CPU.


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Phil Leigh
2010-03-23 21:28:08 UTC
Permalink
snarlydwarf;527560 Wrote:
> No, it's a limit of the speed of the CPU.

and given that it already struggles to decode certain flac files, I
think it is safe to say there is no way to make it support >24/96.

You need to get a Touch :-)


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You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
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michael123
2010-03-23 21:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;527567 Wrote:
> and given that it already struggles to decode certain flac files, I
> think it is safe to say there is no way to make it support >24/96.
>
> You need to get a Touch :-)

With the help of one of the gurus here, I modded my Transporter with
Burson discrete HD op-amps, plus some other dozens of (very cheap!)
components were replaced..

Now Transporter sounds identical to top-of-the-line EMM Labs player
(costing 30K$). I listened to both for about 5 hours on different
content.

No way I will replace my transporter anytime soon..

But surely, I can help to improve its firmware


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michael123
2010-03-23 21:30:29 UTC
Permalink
I do not believe this, as I saw recent posts by Sean Adams, CPU could be
lowered by lower compression ratios of FLAC, or just using WAV files.

Also, the code might be optimized.

5 years ago 96/24 was quite good, it still good enough for today, but
to be competitive, this piece shall support up to 96/24.

Question: can I grab my hands on the source code of the firmware?
Is there simulation environment?
What is the development environment?

That bug with pseudo over-voltage is annoying me, and lack of native
support for these bitrates as well..


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Phil Leigh
2010-03-23 21:34:05 UTC
Permalink
michael123;527568 Wrote:
> I do not believe this, as I saw recent posts by Sean Adams, CPU could be
> lowered by lower compression ratios of FLAC, or just using WAV files.
>
> Also, the code might be optimized.
>
> 5 years ago 96/24 was quite good, it still good enough for today, but
> to be competitive, this piece shall support up to 96/24.
>
> Question: can I grab my hands on the source code of the firmware?
> Is there simulation environment?
> What is the development environment?
>
> That bug with pseudo over-voltage is annoying me, and lack of native
> support for these bitrates as well..

What Sean implied was that every last ounce of CPU power is being used
already. There is nowhere to go with this.

The TP firmware source code is proprietary.


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You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
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michael123
2010-03-23 21:45:44 UTC
Permalink
Phil

did you check personally?
I hear these things every day..

Just last week I sat with our programmers and we improved algorithm 10
times.
Things can always be improved, I do not buy it.

Since nobody is working on the transporter firmware, why not release it
into public domain?


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michael123
2010-03-23 21:47:58 UTC
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Or.. How can I become contributor?


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Phil Leigh
2010-03-23 21:51:03 UTC
Permalink
michael123;527576 Wrote:
> Phil
>
> did you check personally?
> I hear these things every day..
>
> Just last week I sat with our programmers and we improved algorithm 10
> times.
> Things can always be improved, I do not buy it.
>
> Since nobody is working on the transporter firmware, why not release it
> into public domain?

Michael, in my opinion it isn't going to happen. However, there is
every chance that the Touch will be able to support these bit rates,
since it is effectively a Linux box with a much more powerful cpu,
running a less proprietary driver that can be tweaked - and Mr. Swenson
is working on it.
The tp is sadly a dead end.


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michael123
2010-03-23 21:56:03 UTC
Permalink
Phil

I can leave with this dead-end for next 10 years,
again, the level of the mod is so high, that the player now competes
with the
sound of Metronome and EMM Labs

Few bugs in firmware and optimization of the code is not something not
possible.

If SlimDevices/Logitech guys read this, I would like them to contact
me, I have some time so I could invest in profiling and optimizing the
code.


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Phil Leigh
2010-03-23 22:02:06 UTC
Permalink
michael123;527582 Wrote:
> Phil
>
> I can leave with this dead-end for next 10 years,
> again, the level of the mod is so high, that the player now competes
> with the
> sound of Metronome and EMM Labs
>
> Few bugs in firmware and optimization of the code is not something not
> possible.
>
> If SlimDevices/Logitech guys read this, I would like them to contact
> me, I have some time so I could invest in profiling and optimizing the
> code.

I'm sure the firmware bugs could be fixed (if there was anyone to work
on them).

The VFD displays in the TP are going to fail at some point...


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You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
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Pat Farrell
2010-03-23 22:08:04 UTC
Permalink
michael123 wrote:
> Few bugs in firmware and optimization of the code is not something not
> possible.

This makes zero sense. Its an EOL product. Live with the bugs, or buy a
new product that does what you want. Perhaps if the TP was new, but its
not. Moore's law has marched on. There are better DAC chips, faster DSP
chips, faster and cheaper embedded CPUs, even faster NICs.

Plus, why in the world would someone think that any time spend to
support 176/24 and 192Khz/24 makes any sense when there is no source
material out there.

As a wish, this makes no sense. As a practical project, it makes far less.

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Pat Farrell
2010-03-23 21:59:30 UTC
Permalink
michael123 wrote:
> Since nobody is working on the transporter firmware, why not release it
> into public domain?

That is not a realistic request. Sean and Dean talked in the past about
making the firmware be under an Open Source license. But the sticking
point is that the firmware needs a special compiler and linker, and the
license for that costs solid five figures. So they thought that no one
would spring for a legal license, so there was no reason to release the
firmware source code.

I have worked on other embedded systems, and expensive tools are
frequent in the business.

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DCtoDaylight
2010-03-24 00:08:00 UTC
Permalink
pfarrell;527584 Wrote:
> Sean and Dean talked in the past about
> making the firmware be under an Open Source license. But the sticking
> point is that the firmware needs a special compiler and linker, and
> the
> license for that costs solid five figures. So they thought that no one
> would spring for a legal license, so there was no reason to release
> the
> firmware source code.

One possible work around for the compiler issue is student licenses.
Many companies offer those for free, for the duration of a course of
study (6 months or so). There's usually a lot of restrictions on use
though, and of course absolutely no commercial application is allowed.
Sadly, I expect they would take a dim view on someone working on
updates to the firmware of a commercial product...


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andyg
2010-03-24 00:21:44 UTC
Permalink
If you want to work on insane sample rates, your best bet is to talk to
John Swenson who is working on doing this for SB Touch, since the
firmware for that is open enough.

The ip3k firmware can never be open-sourced unfortunately, as it
contains proprietary code from Ubicom.


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JohnSwenson
2010-03-24 07:52:36 UTC
Permalink
In addition there is the possibility of hardware issues. The hardware
has to have clocks that can run fast enough to support high sample
rates. The DAC chips require a clock that is a certain multiplier of the
sample rate in use. A circuit designed for a max of 96 MAY not be able
to generate fast enough clocks to run the DAC chip at the high sample
rate.

I don't know the circuit of the Transporter so I can't comment on
whether it does or not. Just because the DAC chip can work at 192 does
not mean the circuitry driving it can.

The Touch DOES have circuitry that will generate clocks that will run
it's DAC chip at 192, so it IS just software.

On the issue of compilers, big $$ is right. Several years ago I was
trying to program a USB chip, the official compiler to use with that
chip was $2700, a little out of my resources! There was a free compiler
available, but it used radically different calling conventions so it
could not talk to the subroutines built in to the ROM on the chip. I
spent several months trying to write assembly level hacks to get access
to those routines. I finally gave up after realizing that the routines
on the chip didn't use the same calling convention specified in the
compiler documentation. Figuring out what they actually used was going
to be way too much work. I'm still bloody from beating my head against a
brick wall on that one.

John S.


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twheatley
2010-03-24 10:19:26 UTC
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Will the audio out of the Touch be as good as the Transporter?

What about the power supply? Is it as clean as the TP's?


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Phil Leigh
2010-03-24 13:50:40 UTC
Permalink
twheatley;527668 Wrote:
> Will the audio out of the Touch be as good as the Transporter?
>
> What about the power supply? Is it as clean as the TP's?
>
> What would you buy now to genuinely replace a TP given that, as Pat
> states, it's an EOL product? (disappointed to hear that as I just bough
> mine last weekend!)

No reason to panic!
I'm willing to bet that the digital output of the Touch is
indistinguishable from that of the TP into the same cables/DAC at the
same bitrate.

I won't speculate about the analogue outputs.


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You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
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JohnSwenson
2010-03-25 18:33:39 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;527707 Wrote:
> No reason to panic!
> I'm willing to bet that the digital output of the Touch is
> indistinguishable from that of the TP into the same cables/DAC at the
> same bitrate.
>
> I won't speculate about the analogue outputs.

>From what Sean has said about the Transporter the coax outputs for the
TP and the Touch are conceptually identical. My current understanding
is that the Touch uses slightly better parts in its output circuit, but
the TP has slightly lower jitter to begin with.

I don't have thenm both side by side to compare but my guess is that
the TP will be ever so slightly better than the Touch. Both will be way
better than an SB3. Both of them are very close to being about as good
as its possible to get.

The rest of the system is going to be far more important. The exact
details of the cables used, connectors, how the connectors are attached
to the cables, and especially connectors , board layout and input
circuitry in the DAC are going to be far greater than the differences
between the TP and the Touch.

As far as the analog outs go I actually prefer the Touch. But of course
that is one of those individual preference things. When you start
comparing mods, who knows.

John S.


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Phil Leigh
2010-03-25 18:56:48 UTC
Permalink
JohnSwenson;527979 Wrote:
> From what Sean has said about the Transporter the coax outputs for the
> TP and the Touch are conceptually identical. My current understanding
> is that the Touch uses slightly better parts in its output circuit, but
> the TP has slightly lower jitter to begin with.
>
> I don't have thenm both side by side to compare but my guess is that
> the TP will be ever so slightly better than the Touch. Both will be way
> better than an SB3. Both of them are very close to being about as good
> as its possible to get.
>
> The rest of the system is going to be far more important. The exact
> details of the cables used, connectors, how the connectors are attached
> to the cables, and especially connectors , board layout and input
> circuitry in the DAC are going to be far greater than the differences
> between the TP and the Touch.
>
> As far as the analog outs go I actually prefer the Touch. But of course
> that is one of those individual preference things. When you start
> comparing mods, who knows.
>
> John S.

John - what's your view on after-market power supplies for the
SB3/Touch?
I'm pretty much convinced that there MIGHT be a very small benefit for
the SB3 s/pdif but I'm darned if I can find any benefit for the Touch
using its digital outputs...


--
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You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
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JohnSwenson
2010-03-27 03:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;527990 Wrote:
> John - what's your view on after-market power supplies for the
> SB3/Touch?
> I'm pretty much convinced that there MIGHT be a very small benefit for
> the SB3 s/pdif but I'm darned if I can find any benefit for the Touch
> using its digital outputs...

I've measured big differences using a linear supply for the SB3, but
its not in the signal coming out of the DAC or digital outs. The
switcher that comes with the SB3 injects a huge amount of noise into
the power cord which winds up in the other boxes in the system unless
you have very good power filtration in your system. The frequencies
that come out of this switcher are rather pernicious, they are low
enough that most "RF" filters don't touch them and high enough that
they sail right through the stray capacitances of most power supplies.


This is not just conjecture, I've measured it several times with many
different pieces of equipment, power bars, power filters etc.

Its rather interesting that the only equipment which does a good job
filtering out this noise is boxes which also have switching supplies.
The switcher has filters designed to keep its own noise out of the
electronics which also does a good job blocking the noise from the SB3
supply.

The result of this is that the effect of the noise from the SB3
switcher in general is far more noticeable on high end gear that uses
good linear supplies than it is with "consumer" gear using swithing
supplies.

In my system the good linear supply does make a significant difference
with the SB3. With the SB3 supply even if the SB3 is not providing the
signal it makes a difference, which seems a pretty good indication that
its not direct signal related but some other vector.

Just plugging the switcher is not enough to cause the problem, it has
to have a significant load (the SB3) in order for this to be an issue.
I have not tried just a resistor as a load to the switcher and see if
that degrades the sound from other sources.

The switcher that comes with the Touch is vastly better than the one
that came with the SB3. With it I cannot hear any difference using the
switcher or the linear supply. When I have the touch in the listening
room I just use its own switcher.

One test I have NOT done, but probably should is to use the Touch's
supply with the SB3.

In addition to the noise injected into the AC line there IS noise
radiated from the wires and the supply box itself which can get picked
up by interconnects and other boxes. My measurements show this to be
significantly less importance than the power cord born noise, but its
still there. If an audiophile is using unshielded interconnects (which
are popular in some circles) this source of noise can wind up being
significant.

Th SB3 itself also radiates a lot more RF than the Touch, but thats
irrespective of what power supply you use.

So yep, using a linear instead of the switcher that comes with the SB3
CAN make a big difference to sound. How much is going to be quite
system dependant. For some its going to make a big difference others
won't hear it at all and others will be inbetween.

That little switcher that comes with the SB3 is so bad that it makes my
skin crawl just thinking about it. I keep one on the floor in my
listening room and stomp on it everytime I go in or out. I've been
trying to come up with a good use for one, such as testing the
ruggedness of a sledge hammer etc. That little thing is amazingly
resiliant, I have not been able to damage it yet. A 15 pound sledge
hammer with a really good swing would probably do it.

John S.


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JohnSwenson
2010-03-27 04:04:59 UTC
Permalink
On the main subject of this thread there IS a reason that 176/192 might
sound better, but the explanation is somewhat involved and I don't have
time right now to put it all down. Maybe tomorrow I'll take a couple
hours off from DAC design and give it a try.

John S.


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Themis
2010-03-27 08:37:27 UTC
Permalink
johnswenson;528305 Wrote:
>
>
> that little switcher that comes with the sb3 is so bad that it makes my
> skin crawl just thinking about it. I keep one on the floor in my
> listening room and stomp on it everytime i go in or out. I've been
> trying to come up with a good use for one, such as testing the
> ruggedness of a sledge hammer etc. That little thing is amazingly
> resiliant, i have not been able to damage it yet. A 15 pound sledge
> hammer with a really good swing would probably do it.
>
> John s.
:p


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Phil Leigh
2010-03-27 09:58:09 UTC
Permalink
JohnSwenson;528305 Wrote:
> I've measured big differences using a linear supply for the SB3, but its
> not in the signal coming out of the DAC or digital outs. The switcher
> that comes with the SB3 injects a huge amount of noise into the power
> cord which winds up in the other boxes in the system unless you have
> very good power filtration in your system. The frequencies that come
> out of this switcher are rather pernicious, they are low enough that
> most "RF" filters don't touch them and high enough that they sail right
> through the stray capacitances of most power supplies.
>
> This is not just conjecture, I've measured it several times with many
> different pieces of equipment, power bars, power filters etc.
>
> Its rather interesting that the only equipment which does a good job
> filtering out this noise is boxes which also have switching supplies.
> The switcher has filters designed to keep its own noise out of the
> electronics which also does a good job blocking the noise from the SB3
> supply.
>
> The result of this is that the effect of the noise from the SB3
> switcher in general is far more noticeable on high end gear that uses
> good linear supplies than it is with "consumer" gear using swithing
> supplies.
>
> In my system the good linear supply does make a significant difference
> with the SB3. With the SB3 supply even if the SB3 is not providing the
> signal it makes a difference, which seems a pretty good indication that
> its not direct signal related but some other vector.
>
> Just plugging the switcher is not enough to cause the problem, it has
> to have a significant load (the SB3) in order for this to be an issue.
> I have not tried just a resistor as a load to the switcher and see if
> that degrades the sound from other sources.
>
> The switcher that comes with the Touch is vastly better than the one
> that came with the SB3. With it I cannot hear any difference using the
> switcher or the linear supply. When I have the touch in the listening
> room I just use its own switcher.
>
> One test I have NOT done, but probably should is to use the Touch's
> supply with the SB3.
>
> In addition to the noise injected into the AC line there IS noise
> radiated from the wires and the supply box itself which can get picked
> up by interconnects and other boxes. My measurements show this to be
> significantly less importance than the power cord born noise, but its
> still there. If an audiophile is using unshielded interconnects (which
> are popular in some circles) this source of noise can wind up being
> significant.
>
> Th SB3 itself also radiates a lot more RF than the Touch, but thats
> irrespective of what power supply you use.
>
> So yep, using a linear instead of the switcher that comes with the SB3
> CAN make a big difference to sound. How much is going to be quite
> system dependant. For some its going to make a big difference others
> won't hear it at all and others will be inbetween.
>
> That little switcher that comes with the SB3 is so bad that it makes my
> skin crawl just thinking about it. I keep one on the floor in my
> listening room and stomp on it everytime I go in or out. I've been
> trying to come up with a good use for one, such as testing the
> ruggedness of a sledge hammer etc. That little thing is amazingly
> resiliant, I have not been able to damage it yet. A 15 pound sledge
> hammer with a really good swing would probably do it.
>
> John S.
John - thanks for taking the time to type all of this - really
fascinating stuff. This explains a lot:

1) Why I could never detect/measure any audible differences with the
different supplies - I was measuring the SB3 in isolation, so there
were no other vectors.
2) When doing listening tests, my system has a very high-quality
switching supply in the pre-amp which would filter out any crap coming
back in via the mains through that vector
3) I only use screened cables (I did once have an NVA amp that came
with unscreened cables - it also came with a self-destruct feature!)
4) I use a symmetrical choke-based mains filter for all of my
"switching" supplies (router, USB disk, HDMI Switch box, SB3/Touch)
that will stop some crud coming back onto the mains from those devices.


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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michael123
2010-03-25 18:58:44 UTC
Permalink
Pat

If I did not have the source material, I would not raise the issue,
I have about 30 DVD-Audio disks with 192/24, plus, there are some new
HRx titles 176.4/24

It is not that I love 192/24, I hate to downsample material.

I heard HRx 176.4Khz on Weiss, and it sounded better than same
downsampled to 96KHz, cleaner maybe

I am not going to throw Transporter away, after I modded some dozens of
components inside, it sounds fantastic!


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agillis
2010-03-26 04:02:28 UTC
Permalink
The only player that can do 192/24 and works with Squeezebox Server is
VortexBox player. We have gotten some amazing results using a high end
sound cards with it.


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rip, tag, get cover artÂ… All you do is insert the CD!
http://vortexbox.org

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agillis
2010-03-26 04:02:28 UTC
Permalink
The only player that can do 192/24 and works with Squeezebox Server is
VortexBox player. We have gotten some amazing results using a high end
sound cards with it.


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rip, tag, get cover artÂ… All you do is insert the CD!
http://vortexbox.org

agillis
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DCtoDaylight
2010-03-25 00:24:36 UTC
Permalink
JohnSwenson;527638 Wrote:
> On the issue of compilers, big $$ is right. Several years ago I was
> trying to program a USB chip, the official compiler to use with that
> chip was $2700, a little out of my resources!

In my experience, $2700 is actually pretty cheap compared to some of
the FPGA compilers out there! and you don't want to know what the ASIC
layout software I work with costs!


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JohnSwenson
2010-03-25 01:57:37 UTC
Permalink
DCtoDaylight;527827 Wrote:
> In my experience, $2700 is actually pretty cheap compared to some of the
> FPGA compilers out there! and you don't want to know what the ASIC
> layout software I work with costs!

My day Job IS ASIC layout so I do know what that stuff costs!! And the
mask costs, eeeou!

For personal use I try and get away with the free FPGA stuff, which
works out nicely since I can't afford the chips that need the expensive
software. I just stick around the bottom feeding end of FPGAs. $12 parts
I can afford, $600 ones are out of my range if it comes out of my own
pocket.

John S.


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michael123
2010-03-26 06:53:30 UTC
Permalink
andyg;527609 Wrote:
> If you want to work on insane sample rates, your best bet is to talk to
> John Swenson who is working on doing this for SB Touch, since the
> firmware for that is open enough.
>
> The ip3k firmware can never be open-sourced unfortunately, as it
> contains proprietary code from Ubicom.

192/24 is not the top goal for me, merely a (frustrating) limitation.
Is it completely abandoned product in Logitech?
What about few bugs promised to fix? (like pseudo over-voltage,
updating flac library so the device will not stuck on certain bitrates,
..)
It is not so old product.. less than 4 years..
Product in high-end arena live sometimes for 15 years..

Is there any possibility a developer with (little, but available) spare
time can help maintaining Transporter?


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andyg
2010-03-26 11:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Of course it's not abandoned. But even if it were possible to support
24/192 I'm not sure there's a real reason to do so. Can anyone
actually ABX accurately between 24/96 and higher sample rates?


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paulduggan
2010-03-26 12:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Finally, the elephant in the thread gets outed!


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michael123
2010-03-26 18:46:12 UTC
Permalink
andyg;528143 Wrote:
> Of course it's not abandoned. But even if it were possible to support
> 24/192 I'm not sure there's a real reason to do so. Can anyone
> actually ABX accurately between 24/96 and higher sample rates?

I have few HDAD albums by Classic Records with both 96/24 and 192/24
layers.
If my comparison will convince the management to add support of new
sampling rates, will do (how will I do that?)

I just do not want to downsample anything.
I have absolutely fabulous recording of Lindberg 2L in 192/24, why
should I convert them? These recording were made in DXD (384KHz I
think)

And to the guys that do not (even) need 96/24, why did you buy
Transporter?
Good mastering of 96/24 has an edge over 44.1/24 and surely over
44.1/16


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andyg
2010-03-26 18:47:35 UTC
Permalink
No, it's already been said that it's not possible, I was just stating
that if it were, it probably still doesn't make a lot of sense, other
than for marketing purposes.


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cliveb
2010-03-27 10:30:20 UTC
Permalink
michael123;528228 Wrote:
> And to the guys that do not (even) need 96/24, why did you buy
> Transporter?
Are you suggesting that the only capability of the Transporter that
might justify a purchase is the sample rates that it supports?

Don't you think perhaps the high quality DAC chip it uses, or the fact
that it has low noise balanced outputs might have some bearing on its
performance?

Or that its multiple digital inputs which allow it to be used as a DAC
for other sources might be useful in some installations?

I would still have bought a Transporter if it had been limited to 48/24


--
cliveb

Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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michael123
2010-03-28 17:04:59 UTC
Permalink
Transporter's DAC - e.g. the chip - is well-respected and used in a very
high-end equipment, such as Esoteric and Metronome.

Yet, it is analog stage may be **greatly** improved. Under the hood,
while schematically excellent, Transporter has very cheap (cents)
components.
I wish I could upgrade it earlier, now it sounds incredible.
Three-dimensional, very quiet (more quite than before), better bass
control, better details & microdynamics, etc..

Yet, Transporter as-is sounds good, but not as it could once you
upgrade op-amps, capacitors, etc. from 1cent to something that costs 1$
(virtually)

Re: 192/24 vs. 176.4/24 - Recently Linn Records released few classical
albums with 192/24, I have also HRx disk with 176.4/24, Lindberg has
few 192/24 records.. I just want to hear as-is.

Another points are that downsampling from 192/24 to 96/24 is
CPU-intensive, while 172.4/24 to 96/24 may introduce noise (until I fix
SoX to downsample to 88.4/24)


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twheatley
2010-03-29 11:29:24 UTC
Permalink
anyone know anywhere in the UKthat would perform the upgrades michael123
mentions?


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Phil Leigh
2010-03-29 12:58:27 UTC
Permalink
twheatley;528751 Wrote:
> anyone know anywhere in the UKthat would perform the upgrades michael123
> mentions?

Interestingly, Audiocom only do a digital output upgrade for the TP.


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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michael123
2010-03-29 13:12:52 UTC
Permalink
When we replaced 6 op-amps with Burson discrete ones, oscilloscope
showed some noise. So, initially we thought of power supply. Frankly,
the guy who did the mod had some available (dedicated toroidal power
supply + super regulators), but after he installed it (to feed op-amps)
he could not see the benefits (noise remained)

The outcome of this test showed us that the power supply of Transporter
is very good (no similarities to SB3 at all).

Few days after we tested modded Transporter against EMM Labs XDS1
player (one of the most expensive on the market and considered to be
one of the best) - http://www.emmlabs.com/html/audio/xds1/xds1.html
Rest of the system was on par with this machine, such as Von Schweikert
VR-7 speakers..

We listened for five hours via Transporter digital output AES/EBU fed
to EMM input, EMM CD source, and Transporter modded analog output.
While Transporter's analog output was close to EMM's (small difference
was mainly in the high-frequency area, Transporter was more extended),
digital was the same. We did switching between preamp inputs every few
minutes.. No difference.. And we all have (we were group of three
people) 'audiophile' ears :-)

So, I would not perform digital-only mod..


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Phil Leigh
2010-03-29 14:56:11 UTC
Permalink
twheatley;528751 Wrote:
> anyone know anywhere in the UKthat would perform the upgrades michael123
> mentions?

It's always worth bearing in mind this post...

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=249134&postcount=4


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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michael123
2010-03-29 17:09:57 UTC
Permalink
Phil

Bear in mid this link:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=505803&postcount=56


yes, power supply of Transporter is good enough as well as digital
output interface. This is what we saw and compared.. [ Digital input,
however, is not at the same level IMHO. ]

Yet, analog topology *is exactly as* specified by Asahi Kasei (one of,
actually - there are few options), on page 35 of the spec (there are
very small differences, but the topology is 100% same)

Bear in mind that we had Transporter opened for 10 days against out
eyes

Bear in mind we tested different components and measured with equipment
and then listened..

Bear in mind that the raw electronics in analog stage is very basic
(could not be worse than that..)

Shall I continue?


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Pat Farrell
2010-03-29 17:13:19 UTC
Permalink
michael123 wrote:
> Shall I continue?

No

You have become a troll. And your SeanTrollScore for these recent posts
is 0/10. See http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=76315


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Pat Farrell
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michael123
2010-03-29 17:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Pat

give me a favor.
When you will have something meaningful to say on the subject of this
thread, say it..

In the meantime...


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Pat Farrell
2010-03-29 17:22:27 UTC
Permalink
michael123 wrote:
> When you will have something meaningful to say on the subject of this
> thread, say it..

We have fully explored this thread.

You are asking for stuff that will not be answered. You want stuff that
can't be done.

If you hate the Transporter so much, and have half the skills you claim,
built your own.

Otherwise, please, go away.


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michael123
2010-03-29 17:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Pat

1) stop insulting me
I will bring this to attention of Logitech guys
You should go away as your posts are ignorant and irritating

2) You are misleading..
Transporter can be upgraded and improved, that's the point..
As with every component. All audio designers are DIY-ers and modders.
Did you visit DIYAudio? You can meet there John Curl, Nelson Pass, ...

3) I am a legitimate (paying) customer of SlimDevices and Logitech.
You're not going to shut me off

4) People asked me about the mod, so I provided some questions..

5) Yes, I got the questions regarding 192/24. I understood that nobody
will profile it.


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Pat Farrell
2010-03-29 17:37:40 UTC
Permalink
michael123 wrote:
> 1) stop insulting me
> I will bring this to attention of Logitech guys
> You should go away as your posts are ignorant and irritating

I have not insulted you. I have said that your posts are pointless and
you are a troll. You act like a troll, you write like a troll, you
listen like a troll.

As a wise man once said, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and
quacks like a duck....


> 2) You are misleading..
> Transporter can be upgraded and improved, that's the point..
> As with every component. All audio designers are DIY-ers and modders.

If you hack it up, its no longer a Transporter. Its like someone who has
a 32 ford and puts a Chevy V8 into it. Its now a hot rod, its not a Ford.

The Transporter is old, Electronics moves with Moore's Law.

If you want to hot rod it, why are you here in the commercial product
forums and not in some DIY site?


> 3) I am a legitimate (paying) customer of SlimDevices and Logitech.
> You're not going to shut me off

Of course not, I am asking you, politely to shut up.


> 4) People asked me about the mod, so I provided some questions..

What people? You seem to be just asking the same thing over and over.
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and
expecting different results.


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michael123
2010-03-29 17:49:05 UTC
Permalink
pfarrell;528841 Wrote:
> michael123 wrote:[color=blue]
> What people?
>
See few posts before

pfarrell;528841 Wrote:
> michael123 wrote:[color=blue]
> You seem to be just asking the same thing over and over.
> One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and
> expecting different results.
>
And another definition of insult somebody is to call him 'insane'


Pat,
I love my Transported, I loved it before and now I love it even more.
If I would not love it, I would not mod it, but just connect some Weiss
DAC..

My specialization is performance of cluster-based enterprise system. My
background is imaging processing and algorithms. Software system
performance can be always improved, this is matter of time and will.
This is my bread and butter. I got paid for it.
But I got my answer..


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snarlydwarf
2010-03-29 18:19:57 UTC
Permalink
michael123;528847 Wrote:
>
> My specialization is performance of cluster-based enterprise system. My
> background is imaging processing and algorithms. Software system
> performance can be always improved, this is matter of time and will.
> This is my bread and butter. I got paid for it.
> But I got my answer..

This is not true.

If it were, it would be possible to run Windows on an 8008.

Eventually you hit the wall on software optimizations.


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Themis
2010-03-29 19:39:11 UTC
Permalink
Well, I don't know which is michael23's job, but he's right on
software's performance. Optimizations are not indefinite, of course,
but you can divide useful (externally observed) response time by 20 to
50 most of the time. ;)


--
Themis

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Phil Leigh
2010-03-29 21:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Themis;528895 Wrote:
> Well, I don't know which is michael123's job, but he's right on software
> performance. Optimizations are not indefinite, of course, but you can
> divide useful (externally observed) response time by 20 to 50 most of
> the time. ;)

You can go so far then eventually you have to "throw tin" at the
problem.


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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Themis
2010-03-29 22:34:30 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, Phil, my English is not good enough to know what "throw tin"
means... and search engines were not of much help. I would be grateful
if you could provide a synonym, if you don't mind.


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Robin Bowes
2010-03-29 22:41:59 UTC
Permalink
On 29/03/10 23:34, Themis wrote:
>
> Sorry, Phil, my English is not good enough to know what "throw tin"
> means... and search engines were not of much help. I would be grateful
> if you could provide a synonym, if you don't mind.

To "throw tin" at something means to upgrade the hardware.

R.
Pat Farrell
2010-03-29 22:45:41 UTC
Permalink
Robin Bowes wrote:
> On 29/03/10 23:34, Themis wrote:
>> Sorry, Phil, my English is not good enough to know what "throw tin"
>> means... and search engines were not of much help. I would be grateful
>> if you could provide a synonym, if you don't mind.
>
> To "throw tin" at something means to upgrade the hardware.

Back when I drove near junker cars as an impoverished student, we would
talk about how to best fix up the car.

Sometimes, the best approach was to jack up the radiator cap, and
replace everything under it.

A more serious version of "upgrading the hardware"

While the 'high end' audio folks have a longer time frame, anything
computer related that is four or five years old is economically obsolete.

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snarlydwarf
2010-03-30 00:21:42 UTC
Permalink
pfarrell;528958 Wrote:
>
> While the 'high end' audio folks have a longer time frame, anything
> computer related that is four or five years old is economically
> obsolete.
>

With the fast rise of ARM processors in the last few years, that
timeline is accelerated for 'embedded' applications. cheap, low
wattage, reasonable cpu speed and a wealth of options on chip.

Even my TV has an ARM processor in it (and runs Linux).


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Pat Farrell
2010-03-30 00:37:50 UTC
Permalink
snarlydwarf wrote:
> pfarrell;528958 Wrote:
>> While the 'high end' audio folks have a longer time frame, anything
>> computer related that is four or five years old is economically
>> obsolete.
>
> With the fast rise of ARM processors in the last few years, that
> timeline is accelerated for 'embedded' applications. cheap, low
> wattage, reasonable cpu speed and a wealth of options on chip.
>
> Even my TV has an ARM processor in it (and runs Linux).

Yes, the ARM is a great chip. iPhones have three of them. They are
everywhere.

I can't predict the future, but as all media moves to digital formats
(vinyl lovers excepted) there is not a lot of room for the old style
using of components for decades. I still have two Large Advents that I
bought in 1971, but I don't use them for anything. My brother has my
Dynaco preamp and amp from that system.

Modern systems are going to be all DSP based, with an ARM or whatever
replaces it in charge. The idea of putting a lot of time, money and
effort into improving a piece of HiFi gear is going to look as silly as
putting a lot of money into restoring a mid-70s vintage Toyota.

Real computers (desktops, laptops, etc., as opposed to embedded systems)
have gotten so powerful that 99% of the buyers never use even a fraction
of their capabilities.

Pat

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Themis
2010-03-30 07:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Robin Bowes;528957 Wrote:
> On 29/03/10 23:34, Themis wrote:
> >
> > Sorry, Phil, my English is not good enough to know what "throw tin"
> > means... and search engines were not of much help. I would be
> grateful
> > if you could provide a synonym, if you don't mind.
>
> To "throw tin" at something means to upgrade the hardware.
>
> R.
Thanks Robin.

Phil Leigh Wrote:
> You can go so far then eventually you have to "throw tin" at the
> problem.
Yes, you have to upgrade the hardware, eventually. But, problem is, you
upgrade it for adding another software, rarely for making existing
applications faster (except if you lack software experts to do so, or
you are advised by hardware makers...). ;)


--
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Phil Leigh
2010-03-30 08:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Themis;529023 Wrote:
> Thanks Robin.
>
>
> Yes, you have to upgrade the hardware, eventually. But, problem is, you
> upgrade it for adding another software, rarely for making existing
> applications faster (except if you lack software experts to do so, or
> you are advised by hardware makers...). ;)

Well, actually my experience is that it can be much cheaper AND faster
to buy a new £1m server that is ten times quicker than it is to hire a
bunch of highly expensive gurus to pour over already-optimised code to
get maybe 50-100% performance increase after massive testing... and
then 6 months later buy the hardware anyway...
ymmv :-)


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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Themis
2010-03-30 15:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;529034 Wrote:
> Well, actually my experience is that it can be much cheaper AND
> faster-to-market to buy a new £1m server that is ten times quicker than
> it is to hire a bunch of highly expensive gurus to pour over
> already-optimised code to get maybe 50-100% performance increase after
> massive testing... and then 6 months later buy the hardware anyway...
> ymmv :-)
Bad idea. It costs less. Code is rarely optimized, you would be scared
if you knew how it is made and tested... (not talking about the
Transporter, here).

Experts are no "gurus", just normal/good professionals. The bunch of us
is simply heavily under-qualified, crushed by the abnormally high
project-management costs. ;)


--
Themis

SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Croft 25Pre and Series 7 power - Sonus Faber
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Phil Leigh
2010-03-30 17:08:20 UTC
Permalink
Themis;529136 Wrote:
> Bad idea. It costs less. Code is rarely optimized, you would be scared
> if you knew how it is made and tested... (not talking about the
> Transporter, here).
>
> Experts are no "gurus", just normal/good professionals. The bunch of us
> is simply heavily under-qualified, crushed by the abnormally high
> project-management costs. ;)

Themis, You are talking to someone who designs computer systems costing
tens - even hundreds - of millions of pounds and many years to develop
and implement(and that's just the software) :-). I know exactly how
code gets written... :-)


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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Themis
2010-03-30 18:12:38 UTC
Permalink
Well, then, we must agree, I guess. :)


--
Themis

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Phil Leigh
2010-03-30 18:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Themis;529176 Wrote:
> Well, then, we must agree, I guess. :)

Yes... it gets written very, very slowly :-)


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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tcutting
2010-03-30 19:18:55 UTC
Permalink
So, do you know the difference between "Hardware" and "Software"?


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Phil Leigh
2010-03-30 20:46:11 UTC
Permalink
tcutting;529198 Wrote:
> So, do you know the difference between "Hardware" and "Software"?

???


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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Pat Farrell
2010-03-30 20:59:59 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh wrote:
> tcutting;529198 Wrote:
>> So, do you know the difference between "Hardware" and "Software"?
>
> ???

I see this as a perfectly valid question. These days, a lot of
"hardware" is really defined by "software" and so the ancient
distinctions are vague and occasionally meaningless.

I expect that in time, there will be very little "hardware" differences
in even high end audio equipment.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/
Phil Leigh
2010-03-30 21:15:56 UTC
Permalink
pfarrell;529218 Wrote:
> Phil Leigh wrote:
> > tcutting;529198 Wrote:
> >> So, do you know the difference between "Hardware" and "Software"?
> >
> > ???
>
> I see this as a perfectly valid question. These days, a lot of
> "hardware" is really defined by "software" and so the ancient
> distinctions are vague and occasionally meaningless.
>
> I expect that in time, there will be very little "hardware" differences
>
> in even high end audio equipment.
>
> --
> Pat Farrell
> http://www.pfarrell.com/

No I get that - FPGA's changed everything. But there's a big difference
between DSP within audio gear and large-scale commercial Enterprise
computing...(as I'm sure you know)

...and yes I am 100% comfortable that I understand the difference
between hardware and software!


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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Themis
2010-03-30 23:50:26 UTC
Permalink
:)


--
Themis

SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Croft 25Pre and Series 7 power - Sonus Faber
Grand Piano Domus
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tcutting
2010-03-31 23:03:41 UTC
Permalink
tcutting;529198 Wrote:
> So, do you know the difference between "Hardware" and "Software"?

Sorry - didn't mean this to be too deep a question... more of a "geeky
riddle".

Answer: You can change the hardware!


--
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michael123
2010-03-30 11:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Themis;528895 Wrote:
> Well, I don't know which is michael123's job, but he's right on software
> performance. Optimizations are not indefinite, of course, but you can
> divide useful (externally observed) response time by 20 to 50 most of
> the time. ;)

Thanks!
BTW, I spent almost a month with my team two years ago in Montpellier
in IBM Labs, benchmarking and optimizing our system for Power6

Really great place!


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Phil Leigh
2010-03-29 18:10:53 UTC
Permalink
michael123;528824 Wrote:
> Phil
>
> Bear in mid this link:
> http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=505803&postcount=56
>
>
> yes, power supply of Transporter is good enough as well as digital
> output interface. This is what we saw and compared.. [ Digital input,
> however, is not at the same level IMHO. ]
>
> Yet, analog topology *is exactly as* specified by Asahi Kasei (one of,
> actually - there are few options), on page 35 of the spec (there are
> very small differences, but the topology is 100% same)
>
> Bear in mind that we had Transporter opened for 10 days against our
> eyes
>
> Bear in mind we tested different components and measured with equipment
> and then listened..
>
> Bear in mind that the raw electronics in analog stage is very basic
> (could not be worse than that..)
>
> Shall I continue?

Well, no need really - a lot (probably most) of the music we listen to
has already passed through several 5532/4 opamps (or worse - much
worse) with power supplies you and I wouldn't allow in the house, so
there is no going back from there. Messing around with the opamps in
the TP will make it sound different for sure, but absolutely better
(more accurate)? Categorically not. Just "better" for you - which is
fine. DAC output stages are like cartridges - pick one to suit your own
taste.


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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michael123
2010-03-30 11:40:51 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;528853 Wrote:
> Well, no need really - a lot (probably most) of the music we listen to
> has already passed through several 5532/4 opamps (or worse - much
> worse) with power supplies you and I wouldn't allow in the house, so
> there is no going back from there. Messing around with the opamps in
> the TP will make it sound different for sure, but absolutely better
> (more accurate)? Categorically not. Just "better" for you - which is
> fine. DAC output stages are like cartridges - pick one to suit your own
> taste.

I agree that as far as it comes to music, this kind of experience is
very subjective. Yet, there are at least five people I know that liked
the sound..

Objectively speaking though, these op-amps I am talking about are
*discrete*, not SMD. The benefits are much less inter-modulated
distortion (?? I believe this is the coined term..). That's like
comparing Class AB and Class A amplifiers. Also, since the sound became
"warmer" (and respectfully, less analytic and metallic), I think that
higher-order harmonics's amplitude decreased. [ We do not have 10K$
Audio Precision so we could not measure, although I very wanted to.. ]

We did not modify topology, did not touch the digital interface, which
is in our opinion - excellently built.

The guy who soldered this for me is professional, he has 20 years of
experience in electronics (high-tech) and now he builds and sells
various kind of equipment, such as speakers, digital amplifiers, power
supplies etc.
Modders and DIY-ers are not something bad.. This is by far the best
"bang for the buck", if you know what you're doing..


--
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paulduggan
2010-03-30 11:47:23 UTC
Permalink
michael123;529085 Wrote:
> ...I think that higher-order harmonics's amplitude decreased.

That sounds like -more- distortion.


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michael123
2010-03-30 12:01:15 UTC
Permalink
paulduggan;529089 Wrote:
> That sounds like -more- distortion.

which one? ;-)


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paulduggan
2010-03-30 14:16:32 UTC
Permalink
I don't understand the relevance of the link. It seems to be advertising
material for a device that adds distortion to a signal. If you want to
do that then surely there are cheaper and easier ways than buying a
high fidelity device and then hacking it?

Which distortion are you talking about? Do you know of one which
doesn't detract from the accuracy of the source?


--
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michael123
2010-03-30 14:22:15 UTC
Permalink
paulduggan;529118 Wrote:
> I don't understand the relevance of the link. It seems to be advertising
> material for a device that adds distortion to a signal. If you want to
> do that then surely there are cheaper and easier ways than buying a
> high fidelity device and then hacking it?
>
> Which distortion are you talking about? Do you know of one which
> doesn't detract from the accuracy of the source?

Did you read it?
It is about common goals in audio design of amplification
If you have further questions, please post them on DIYAudio


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iPhone
2010-03-26 13:09:54 UTC
Permalink
michael123;528097 Wrote:
> 192/24 is not the top goal for me, merely a (frustrating) limitation.
> Is it completely abandoned product in Logitech?
> What about few bugs promised to fix? (like pseudo over-voltage,
> updating flac library so the device will not stuck on certain bitrates,
> ..)
> It is not so old product.. less than 4 years..
> Product in high-end arena live sometimes for 15 years..
>
> Is there any possibility a developer with (little, but available) spare
> time can help maintaining Transporter?

I am with AndyG on this one. This is pretty much a waste of time.

It is next to impossible to ABX 24/192 with 24/96. Sure if one starts
doing stupid things like down-sampling the 24/192 to 24/96 then saving
the down-sampled file for playback one might if one has super ears of a
pre-ten year old notice some slight differences IE artifacts. But 24/96
native playback versus 24/192 native playback differences are all in
ones imagination or ones brain is fooling ones ears in a vain attempt
to justify the wasted money on buying such high formats and the
equipment required to play them back. Besides most peoples home
playback systems can't even start to take advantage of the minute
slight difference between the two.

Just look at all the effort you have already put into this for the 40
something titles. Keep collecting 24/96 and in ten years there might be
a decent amount of available 24/192 material at cheaper prices plus a
larger number of playback products to choose from. Until then, download
the free Vortexbox software and buy a high end 24/192 audio card for
your Vortexbox PC.

Don't get me wrong, I think 24/192 is something to look forward to when
technology can make the difference to 24/96 worth the trouble or when
Obamacare starts paying for those free bionic ear replacements so
seniors can drive safer due to perfect hearing which also happens to be
better then current human hearing. Which I guess is really my main
point, ones hearing range is just not able to hear the extra frequency
range and further lowering of the noise floor that comes with 24/192
simply because 24/96 basically already exceeds most peoples listening
range. As an example, do you really think with the best stereo setup
you could afford that you could hear the difference between a 16 bit
and 18 bit sample of the same recording. If you say you could, then you
have proved my point. Once the bit rate gets to 24 and the sample rate
reaches 96KHz, anything higher really only practically matters for
making masters. With todays available playback equipment, ones own ears
have become the limiting factor not the bit depth or the sampling
frequency.


--
iPhone

*iPhone*
Media Room:
Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr
6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Mains, VCC-5
Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide
AutoScope 2.35:1

Living Room:
Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A
Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1

Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM
Bedroom: Second Boom
Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio
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paulduggan
2010-03-26 13:21:51 UTC
Permalink
iPhone;528169 Wrote:
> ...24/96 basically already exceeds most peoples listening range.

Read: '-far- exceeds -everyone's- hearing range'. Unless you are a
young dog (some breeds) or a dolphin. But hairy ears and water as a
medium bring their own problems.


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DaveWr
2010-03-26 14:43:58 UTC
Permalink
And Ferrari's exceed the UK speed limit.....

Dave


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Robin Bowes
2010-03-26 15:01:50 UTC
Permalink
On 26/03/10 14:43, DaveWr wrote:
>
> And Ferrari's exceed the UK speed limit.....

...and are generally driven by dickheads, with more money than sense.

:)

R.
paulduggan
2010-03-26 15:25:38 UTC
Permalink
There are consumer benefits to owning a powerful sports car that are not
psychological.
What are the consumer benefits of >96Khz sampling? (I'm not convinced
there are any benefits >44.1Khz given good mastering but 96Khz seems to
give some headroom for sloppiness). So why -should- you make the TP
support 192Khz?


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DaveWr
2010-03-26 16:09:26 UTC
Permalink
paulduggan;528201 Wrote:
> There are consumer benefits to owning a powerful sports car that are not
> psychological.
> What are the consumer benefits of >96Khz sampling? (I'm not convinced
> there are any benefits >44.1Khz given good mastering but 96Khz seems to
> give some headroom for sloppiness). So why -should- you make the TP
> support 192Khz?

You shouldn't - its end of line. Buyer gets what the specification is
makes choice, then shouldn't have major expectations of performance
changes.



Dave


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michael123
2010-03-26 18:52:13 UTC
Permalink
DaveWr;528209 Wrote:
> You shouldn't - its end of line. Buyer gets what the specification is
> makes choice, then shouldn't have major expectations of performance
> changes.
>
>
>
> Dave

My choice was greatly based on the fact that Transporter is an open
platform.
The thing that since Logitech acquired SlimDevice, audiophile community
is left behind, is not greatly advertised. Some of my "friends", point a
finger at me - look, ha ha, he bought a device from "mouse company", he
he..
I am really not interested not in touch screen, and not in facebook
integration.


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Pat Farrell
2010-03-26 19:13:02 UTC
Permalink
michael123 wrote:
> My choice was greatly based on the fact that Transporter is an open
> platform.

There is a good chance that your choice was based on incorrect
understanding of the open license. The hardware has never been open
source in any sense. None of the firmware has been open source, altho
the Touch and other recent models have some pieces of software that is
Open Source.

> I agree about "marketing purposes"!
> I know few people that do not buy it just because it does not support
> 192/24 and 176.4/24..

Well, then they won't buy one. Are you really of the impression that
the Transporter was ever a mass market device? It was an engineering
tour-de-force, a flagship. And a labor of love by folks who are no
longer part of the company.

What is the point of your continual posting in this thread? You are not
going to change any facts. The firmware is not open source, the CPU is
too slow.

Accept it and move on with your life


--
Pat Farrell
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michael123
2010-03-26 20:02:20 UTC
Permalink
If that's a pure software issue, it can be profiled and optimized.

There was a post by Sean Adams, saying that different Flac compression
ratio's generate different CPU load (make sense..)
so, if the limitation would be to use pure wav files, while
SqueezeCenter will decode?


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michael123
2010-03-26 20:02:20 UTC
Permalink
If that's a pure software issue, it can be profiled and optimized.

There was a post by Sean Adams, saying that different Flac compression
ratio's generate different CPU load (make sense..)
so, if the limitation would be to use pure wav files, while
SqueezeCenter will decode?


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Pat Farrell
2010-03-26 20:13:14 UTC
Permalink
michael123 wrote:
>> What is the point of your continual posting in this thread? You are not
>> going to change any facts. The firmware is not open source, the CPU is
>> too slow.
>>
>> Accept it and move on with your life


> If that's a pure software issue, it can be profiled and optimized.

Its "software" in the TP, not in the server. You could have the server
do any kind of transcoding you like, but it won't make the
hardware/firmware support your silly sample rates.

The firmware in the TP is not open source, its not going to be changed
by anyone not employed by Logitech. And I bet its not going to be
changed by anyone emplyeed at Logitech either.

Give it up.

You have become a troll. And your SeanTrollScore for these recent posts
is 0/10. See http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=76315




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Pat Farrell
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michael123
2010-03-26 20:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Pat,

regarding silly sampling rates, tell it to Linn, Lindberg, Classic
Records and others, ok?

Working with Wave files on the server reduces the load on the
Transporter.
By which degree?
is it enough to lift the limitation of higher bitrates?


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Pat Farrell
2010-03-26 20:43:26 UTC
Permalink
michael123 wrote:
> regarding silly sampling rates, tell it to Linn, Lindberg, Classic
> Records and others, ok?

As P T Barnum said, no one has ever gone broke underestimating the
intellegence of the American public.

I have no problem with 88.2/24 or 96/24. I can't hear it, but I can
believe it could be better. But I can't see any possible theoretical
improvement for twice that rate. None.

I have more than 30 microphones in my recording studio. None of them
claim any response over 20kHz. They might have something over 20.0 kHz,
but its going to have at least a 6 dB per octave rolloff, and more are
more likely to have a 24 dB per octave rolloff.

The point of higher rates is to avoid the brick wall filters needed at
22 kHz for redbook. You do that fine with 88.2 or 96 kHz.

> Working with Wave files on the server reduces the load on the
> Transporter.

What are you talking about?

There are no "wave" files that are more than RedBook. You can have PCM
files at any rate/size you want, but it is not going to make it actually
sound better.
>
>> Give it up.
>>
>> You have become a troll. And your SeanTrollScore for these recent posts
>> is 0/10. See http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=76315


You can't get a negative score on the SeanTrollScore, but we may have to
change the rules just for you.


--
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michael123
2010-03-26 21:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Pat,

1) Downsampling introduces artifacts, right?
2) Of course, Wave sounds same as flac. The purpose was to save CPU
cycles on Transporter by doing the decompression on the server.

What would be the CPU load on the Transporter for 192/24 raw wav file?


--
michael123
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mlsstl
2010-03-26 21:55:23 UTC
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Michael, perhaps you should change your ID to "Don Quixote".

But you do get a gold star for persistency....

;-)


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DaveWr
2010-03-26 16:05:19 UTC
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Robin Bowes;528198 Wrote:
> On 26/03/10 14:43, DaveWr wrote:
> >
> > And Ferrari's exceed the UK speed limit.....
>
> ....and are generally driven by dickheads, with more money than sense.
>
> :)
>
> R.

OK Ford Focus - same issue.


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Curt962
2010-04-01 06:21:31 UTC
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I for one am all for the best possible technologies to present our
favorite music, but until the record companies are?? It seems to
remain just a dream.

As long as "focus groups" of college students find 128Kbps MP3s to
sound so good, I don't expect the labels to make the investment. If
the kids won't buy it...we don't get it. Period.

I'm done buying "audiophile" music that bores me in one or two plays.
I've found that in the meantime, there are far more meaningful aspects
of one's playback system that can be improved upon.

I feel that my Transporter at 24/96 is the least of my challenges.


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michael123
2010-04-01 06:39:12 UTC
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Curt962;529502 Wrote:
> I for one am all for the best possible technologies to present our
> favorite music, but until the record companies are?? It seems to
> remain just a dream.
>
> As long as "focus groups" of college students find 128Kbps MP3s to
> sound so good, I don't expect the labels to make the investment. If
> the kids won't buy it...we don't get it. Period. Folks would rather
> have it "now" via download than they would have it "good". When
> your entire system costs $169...a few thousand Kbps doesn't make a lot
> of difference to the masses.
>
> The same people who wouldn't dream of watching American Idol on
> anything less than a lifesize Plasma screen, will happily listen to
> their music through a 2" paper cone.
>
> And we want 176 what??
>
> I'm done buying "audiophile" music that bores me in one or two plays.
> I've found that in the meantime, there are far more meaningful aspects
> of one's playback system that can be improved upon.
>
> I feel that my Transporter at 24/96 is the least of my challenges.

Jazz/blues was indeed boring me 15 years ago, but today I find it quite
interesting.
Also, since I heavily upgraded my stereo system, I can now enjoy
classical recordings... Which are plenty on high-rez

For some reason, maybe marketing as Pat noted, recording industry goes
to 192/24. Hence, I prefer the player to handle it natively, rather
than buying strong CPU for SqueezeCenter to downsample it, and create
artifacts..

Transporter is a killer product, i think it deserves more attention.


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DaveWr
2010-04-01 08:31:55 UTC
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michael123;529507 Wrote:
>
>
> Transporter is a killer product, i think it deserves more attention.

It may be a killer product, but not for a Logitech like company, they
want the MP3 crowd, volume is where it's at.

Dave


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Curt962
2010-04-02 01:08:54 UTC
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Perhaps someone could award me an honorary PhD in
"Miscommunications"....

For me, it's really not a matter of music appreciation. There's not
many genres of music in which I can't find something to like. Thoughts
to the contrary wasn't my point at all.

My point is, and I'm sure others may quietly agree....

It seems the music industry itself isn't concerned with providing the
highest resolution possible. They could, but without a viable market
(read: BIG market) it simply isn't on their radar screen.

If people were falling over themselves for the latest Hi-Res
music....then SACD and DVD-A wouldn't be on death row. Would they?

There are any number of reasons for this, but we live in an age of
cheap, now, and plenty. An age where the CD is too bulky and
complicated. Mega Hi-Res media...as much as it appeals to the
audiophile in those of us here will simply not be born by the masses.
This will, as it always has,leave us with a tiny handful of niche
recordings from largely obscure performers with which to enjoy the
capabilities of our specialist hardware.

I'd love to have 176, 192, 384 or whatever else can be dreamed up.
As a practical matter however I wouldn't spend a dime for it until I
see some movement to provide me, the consumer with a broad catalog of
music from which to choose. It's not there, and so I'm not buying.

My 2 pesos...


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mlsstl
2010-04-02 02:55:47 UTC
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Curt962;529674 Wrote:
>
> It seems the music industry itself isn't concerned with providing the
> highest resolution possible. They could, but without a viable market
> (read: BIG market) it simply isn't on their radar screen.
>

A sole focus on maximum quality has never been true in the history of
recorded audio, whether you're talking downloads, the introduction of
the CD almost 30 years ago, or the introduction of the 33 RPM LP in
1948 or 78s and wax cylinders before that.

Simply put, the industry has to sell large commercial quantities of its
music in order to stay in business. So when the "committee" gets
together to define the standards for the music format du jour, there
are always a lot of variables in play and a compromise at some level is
inevitable.

LPs just suffered from a different version of the time vs quality
compromise that CDs and subsequent digital formats have had to face.

Dan Lavry even has even discussed the disadvantages of having too high
a sampling rate; it can actually reduce accuracy. For example, he
states that it isn't hard to get 24 bit accuracy at 10KHz, but if you
need a 1 GHz signal, you'd be lucky to get 6 bit accuracy. So the
increase to very high sample rates comes with a price tag other than
just file size and needed processing power. If one is not mixing and
editing multi-track files, what purpose is being served at 192K sample
rates?

In many ways audio is just like any other engineering task. Good design
is a matter of picking the compromises that make the most sense. And it
is also inevitable there will be differing opinions about the best
choice.


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wireless200
2010-04-03 15:15:47 UTC
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michael123;529507 Wrote:
>
> Transporter is a killer product, i think it deserves more attention.

Michael, I appreciate you dogged pursuit of answers in this thread.
That's really the only way good things ever get done. You ran into a
bit of a "no can do" attitude but it resulted in one of the more
interesting threads here for some time.


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michael123
2010-04-03 16:26:45 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, wireless200.

mlsstl,

> If one is not mixing and editing multi-track files, what purpose is
> being served at 192K sample rates? Then why is the need to work with 192KHz at all? Why the industry
adopts DXD, which is 384Hz, I think..? I saw few labels going this way,
and there is hardware available of course..


There is one interesting article, comparing analog and different
digital techniques:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/427-a-secrets-technical-article.html

Even with 192/24, analog still has an edge over digital recording
(see here, for example -
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/427-a-secrets-technical-article.html?start=3)

I think the main idea of high-resolution is to provide a proper
substitute to vinyl and/or master tape.

HDAD by Classic Records indeed sounds very close, still older records
sound much better on turntable than on computer.

Recent (USB) release of Beatles was 44.1/24, but, as I understood, it
was digitized on much higher sample rate, and will be re-released in
the future.


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ghostrider
2010-04-03 16:51:05 UTC
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michael123;529986 Wrote:
> Thanks, wireless200.
>
> mlsstl,
>
> Then why is the need to work with 192KHz at all? Why the industry
> adopts DXD, which is 384Hz, I think..? I saw few labels going this way,
> and there is hardware available of course..
>
>
> There is one interesting article, comparing analog and different
> digital techniques:
> http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/427-a-secrets-technical-article.html
>
> Even with 192/24, analog still has an edge over digital recording
> (see here, for example -
> http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/427-a-secrets-technical-article.html?start=3)
>
> I think the main idea of high-resolution is to provide a proper
> substitute to vinyl and/or master tape.
>
> HDAD by Classic Records indeed sounds very close, still older records
> sound much better on turntable than on computer.
>
> Recent (USB) release of Beatles was 44.1/24, but, as I understood, it
> was digitized on much higher sample rate, and will be re-released in
> the future.


Problem is nobody cares. You'll have a few esoteric recordings from
boutique studios that will sell six copies to "audiophiles" but the
popular mainstream lables will continue to ship junk product.


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ghostrider
2010-04-03 16:51:05 UTC
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michael123;529986 Wrote:
> Thanks, wireless200.
>
> mlsstl,
>
> Then why is the need to work with 192KHz at all? Why the industry
> adopts DXD, which is 384Hz, I think..? I saw few labels going this way,
> and there is hardware available of course..
>
>
> There is one interesting article, comparing analog and different
> digital techniques:
> http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/427-a-secrets-technical-article.html
>
> Even with 192/24, analog still has an edge over digital recording
> (see here, for example -
> http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/427-a-secrets-technical-article.html?start=3)
>
> I think the main idea of high-resolution is to provide a proper
> substitute to vinyl and/or master tape.
>
> HDAD by Classic Records indeed sounds very close, still older records
> sound much better on turntable than on computer.
>
> Recent (USB) release of Beatles was 44.1/24, but, as I understood, it
> was digitized on much higher sample rate, and will be re-released in
> the future.


Problem is nobody cares. You'll have a few esoteric recordings from
boutique studios that will sell six copies to "audiophiles" but the
popular mainstream lables will continue to ship junk product.


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Phil Leigh
2010-04-03 17:05:41 UTC
Permalink
michael123;529986 Wrote:
> Thanks, wireless200.
>
> mlsstl,
>
> Then why is the need to work with 192KHz at all? Why the industry
> adopts DXD, which is 384Hz, I think..? I saw few labels going this way,
> and there is hardware available of course..
>
>
> There is one interesting article, comparing analog and different
> digital techniques:
> http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/427-a-secrets-technical-article.html
>
> Even with 192/24, analog still has an edge over digital recording
> (see here, for example -
> http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/427-a-secrets-technical-article.html?start=3)
>
> I think the main idea of high-resolution is to provide a proper
> substitute to vinyl and/or master tape.
>
> HDAD by Classic Records indeed sounds very close, still older records
> sound much better on turntable than on computer.
>
> Recent (USB) release of Beatles was 44.1/24, but, as I understood, it
> was digitized on much higher sample rate, and will be re-released in
> the future.

That article you linked to is the same old misinformed rubbish that has
been washing around the internet and in (some) hi-fi mags for years.
Please don't show me another jagged sine wave...

So you can't record a 10kHz sine wave perfectly at 44.1kHz, huh?

Clearly Shannon et al were misguided fools...

Why can't people learn that the way the wave gets drawn on the screen
by some software says nothing - NOTHING - about how it sounds.

There is NO veracity in that article.
Nothing scientific in it at all. It's just trying to prop up the old
agenda that digital ain't as good as analogue.

This is just silly. Analogue has some lovely added distortion that a
lot of people like. Accurate it simply isn't.


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You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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