[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?

[epoch1970]

Sorry if the post is off topic for this forum.
I have put a player in a store a few weeks ago. People who work there
keep changing the volume on the player although it uses track replaygain
and plays at random from a specific library.
Not only they change volume but they have one single complain about the
system: it's either too soft or too loud. People's opinions vary in
time: it's not always "too loud" for the same person.

My personal take on this is that the ambient noise in the store varies
"a lot" between moments there are little customers and rush hour, while
the player keeps pushing audio at the same volume; if this is true, I
think something like an ambient microphone would help adjust player
volume automatically.

However I have no idea how I would make that really work, and before
starting I'd like to verify if this is -the- reason for these people's
swinging opinion about music volume.
Hence my question: what makes people say music is too loud or too soft?

I hope this is clear and not off-topic. If so I am eager to get your
inputs.



3 SB 3 • Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini • iPeng (iPhone + iPad) • LMS 7.9
(linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa
• IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) • Server Power Control by Gordon
Harris • Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael
Herger • PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple • Song Info, Song Lyrics by
Erland Isaksson • AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 • WeatherTime by Martin
Rehfeld • Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[SuperQ]

This is totally off-topic for an audiophiles section, but my
recommendation for this would be to parts.

Step 1, get a an SPL meter. There are some out there with USB so you
could try and do data logging.

Step 2, Find out what volume level is loud enough to not be a bother
when the store is quiet.

I personally would lock the volume level max somewhere where the music
doesn't cause problems when the shop is quiet. Sure, it might not be
listening volume when the store is busy, but when the shop is busy, do
you want to have music competing with actual conversations with
customers?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[bpa]

I think you'll never keep people happy even after adding automation.

From past experience with an office and air-conditioning. Even though
temp was automated - it seems depending on how it looked outside (sunny,
rainy, windy) - occupants "felt" hot/cold and complained. Solution -
put in a control the occupants could twiddle but in reality temp was
still automated but occupants felt empowered and except then complaints
were about other people putting temp up/down.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[darrenyeats]

Post by bpa
From past experience with an office and air-conditioning. Even though
temp was automated - it seems depending on how it looked outside (sunny,
rainy, windy) - occupants "felt" hot/cold and complained. Solution -
put in a control the occupants could twiddle but in reality temp was
still automated but occupants felt empowered and except then complaints
were about other people putting temp up/down.

It depends what you mean by automated control. Does this include
reacting to outside peak temperature - I guess this would need hooking
into forecasts?

One of my complaints about many offices is that they are too cold on hot
days and too hot on cold days. I know seasonal adjustments are made but
that seems too simplistic and the temperature difference not enough. It
think it's down to people, understandably, wearing warmer clothes on hot
days and lighter clothes on hot days.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[bpa]

Post by darrenyeats
It depends what you mean by automated control. Does this include
reacting to outside peak temperature - I guess this would need hooking
into forecasts?
One of my complaints about many offices is that they are too cold on hot
days and too hot on cold days. I know seasonal adjustments are made but
that seems too simplistic and the temperature difference not enough. It
think it's down to people, understandably, wearing warmer clothes on hot
days and lighter clothes on hot days.

There is little to be gained exploring my example - my basic point was
that it is usually not possible to please all the people all of the
time. Automation may not be the answer and the OP needs to consider than
before putting lots of effort into automation.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[darrenyeats]

my basic point was that it is usually not possible to please all the
people all of the time.

I agree that's a factor!



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[epoch1970]

I think we can consider the topic closed.
My thanks for the interesting and varied contributions!



3 SB 3 • Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini • iPeng (iPhone + iPad) • LMS 7.9
(linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa
• IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) • Server Power Control by Gordon
Harris • Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael
Herger • PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple • Song Info, Song Lyrics by
Erland Isaksson • AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 • WeatherTime by Martin
Rehfeld • Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[JJZolx]

I've never found ReplayGain to really do an adequate job of adjusting
volume so that I never had to adjust the volume of music playing
randomly. Older CDs, especially, before the loudness wars and the
massive compression employed in later releases, are still noticeably
quieter.

IMO, the only way to "fix" the problem would be to employ some kind of
additional compression during the music playback, like they do with
radio station broadcasts. Or perhaps there could be some kind of
pre-processing you could that would modify the audio files in the
library and accomplish the same thing.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[epoch1970]

Using a compressor is actually what I am experimenting with right now. I
would say job done if the end result was a less tiring/fluctuating audio
stream.
Regarding auto-volume control, reading from the comments I no longer
expect as much. I did also a bit of testing and pumping the volume up I
ended with "loud music in a noisy environment". You just want to go
away from that, not good for a store :) So the adjustment would probably
have to be minute, and defining the right base level on volume and
compression looks like a good start.

Of course, noise cancellation would be great... There are refrigeration
units, quite loud and they produce what I think is stationary noise.
I'll be back with another silly question if I decide to start on this ;)



3 SB 3 • Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini • iPeng (iPhone + iPad) • LMS 7.9
(linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa
• IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) • Server Power Control by Gordon
Harris • Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael
Herger • PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple • Song Info, Song Lyrics by
Erland Isaksson • AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 • WeatherTime by Martin
Rehfeld • Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[Golden Earring]

Post by epoch1970
Of course, noise cancellation would be great... There are refrigeration
units, quite loud and they produce what I think is stationary noise.

Hi!

Cancelling the noise of your refrigeration units may not be as easy as
you think - how many independent units are there?

Each one will switch its compressor (i.e. the refrigeration pump) on &
off thermostatically according to the temperature inside the unit &
therefore even though the noise made by each compressor may be "static"
in nature, the aggregate noise generated by them all will vary as
individual units switch on & off independently of one another - none of
them should be on all of the time: if this is not the case then you
don't have adequate refrigeration capacity.

You'd have to "close mike" each unit separately & insert a reversed
phase signal from each through a mixing unit into your audio signal - &
even then you'll only be able to achieve one "dead zone" in which the
sound is cancelled. You would probably end up with *-greater-*
"compressor" noise in other areas where the introduced cancellation
signal itself was actually louder than the noise there from the
refrigeration units themselves...

How loud are these things anyway?

Dave :)


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[epoch1970]

Post by Golden Earring
Cancelling the noise of your refrigeration units may not be as easy as
you think - how many independent units are there?... How loud are these
things anyway?

:)
These are commercial refrigeration units similar to these:
Loading Image...
There is an area with about 15 linear meters of them, shaped like an L.
They have doors, I think we are talking of 4 or 5 devices overall.
Facing the angle of the L, there is a freezer unit. It's not huge but
this one is a noisy b****. But hey, even in an organic foodstore I guess
you can feel entitled to a frozen TV dinner.
First impression, I would say the "L" group + freezer are more or less
running constantly.

Then in another area there are 2 units of similar shape, these have no
doors (only a curtain drawn after hours) and are used for vegetables.
I'd say they are set to a higher temperature and work less hard,
although the lack of doors must have an effect. They are anyway in a
noisy area, near the entry/exit doors at street level.

I only measured the ambient noise level once, with an iPhone... I did
not expect to have to disclose my findings here :) Anyways, there was
little public in the store, and the quietest place measured at ~34 dB.
In the "L" group, 1m away from the freezer I measured ~46 dB. Facing the
2 doorless units, I read a bit less noise, except when doors where
opened to the street.
Near the doors, I measured up to 55 dB. Anyone rolling a shopping cart
in there makes ambient noise spike to well over 50dB.

So it's all relative, inaccurate, and that's only one measurement I
took. But a difference of more than 10dB between the constantly quiet
and noisy places seemed significant to me.

Post by Golden Earring
You'd have to "close mike" each unit separately & insert a reversed
phase signal from each through a mixing unit into your audio signal - &
even then you'll only be able to achieve one "dead zone" in which the
sound is cancelled. You would probably end up with *-greater-*
"compressor" noise in other areas where the introduced cancellation
signal itself was actually louder than the noise there from the
refrigeration units themselves...

Yes I can see the can of worms. But perhaps if the units are indeed
working more or less constantly, a mild noise reduction could be
achieved?



3 SB 3 • Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini • iPeng (iPhone + iPad) • LMS 7.9
(linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa
• IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) • Server Power Control by Gordon
Harris • Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael
Herger • PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple • Song Info, Song Lyrics by
Erland Isaksson • AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 • WeatherTime by Martin
Rehfeld • Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[Golden Earring]

Post by epoch1970
I only measured the ambient noise level once, with an iPhone... I did
not expect to have to disclose my findings here :) Anyways, there was
little public in the store, and the quietest place measured at ~34 dB.
In the "L" group, 1m away from the freezer I measured ~46 dB. Facing the
2 doorless units, I read a bit less noise, except when doors where
opened to the street.
Near the doors, I measured up to 55 dB. Anyone rolling a shopping cart
in there makes ambient noise spike to well over 50dB.
So it's all relative, inaccurate, and that's only one measurement I
took. But a difference of more than 10dB between the constantly quiet
and noisy places seemed significant to me.
Yes I can see the can of worms. But perhaps if the units are indeed
working more or less constantly, a mild noise reduction could be
achieved?

How many loudspeakers do you have in the store? Are they all supplied by
the same amplifier?

I would suggest the following relatively inexpensive approach:

1. Apply any practical soundproofing techniques to the refrigeration
units themselves, in particular making sure that their noise is not
being amplified by resonances in the floor or by the units touching one
another. You need to ensure that the compressor units themselves do not
overheat, so unfortunately you can't simply wrap them up with
soundproofing material - however adding some sound deadening panels (of
the type used in cars to improve the sound of in-door speakers) to the
inside of the casing of the refrigeration units may have some effect for
relatively little cost.

2. Use separate amplification for each speaker zone so that you can set
the volume relative to the residual ambient noise in that particular
area. Amps are cheap these days too!

3. Follow the earlier suggestion of reducing the dynamic range of the
music programme material so that the music level itself remains more or
less constant in each zone.

This is likely to work out cheaper than any alternative approach & I
suspect that it would prove to be just as effective.

Good luck!

Dave :)


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[epoch1970]

Post by Golden Earring
How many loudspeakers do you have in the store? Are they all supplied by
the same amplifier?
I would suggest the following relatively inexpensive approach...

The plan was for 5 amps (PCP with Pi3 + Justboom amp HAT) in dual mono,
for 10 speakers. For the moment there are 3 installed, maybe the count
will stop at 4.
They are configured independently regarding volume and equalization
(different speaker types...)
I am looking into compression, not sure yet how much heavy-handed it
should be...

I'm not sure there is much that can be done with the refrigerators
themselves. If the compressor has to be pushed to castrating levels then
perhaps... ;)

Thanks again!



3 SB 3 • Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini • iPeng (iPhone + iPad) • LMS 7.9
(linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa
• IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) • Server Power Control by Gordon
Harris • Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael
Herger • PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple • Song Info, Song Lyrics by
Erland Isaksson • AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 • WeatherTime by Martin
Rehfeld • Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[Golden Earring]

Post by epoch1970
I am looking into compression, not sure yet how much heavy-handed it
should be...

Have you considered using a low bitrate internet radio station as a
compressed music source?

They're obviously less than CD quality, but should be fine for
background music & they already use quite sophisticated (& expensive!)
electronic compression systems to reduce the volume changes in their
broadcasts: it could save you the trouble if you can find a suitable
station...

BTW, in the UK you're supposed to get licences from the Performing
Rights Society (who handle royalties for composers & publishers) AND a
Public Performance Licence (royalties for playing the music recordings
themselves in public) if you are going to play recorded music in a shop,
or indeed pretty much anywhere else that a 3rd party can hear it, &
there are fines for non-compliance with this. It applies whether you
play CD's, digital music files or any form of radio broadcast or stream.
I imagine that similar laws apply in other countries. Thankfully the
licence fees are not that high for small retail premises.

Dave :)


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[epoch1970]

Post by Golden Earring
Have you considered using a low bitrate internet radio station as a
compressed music source?
...
BTW, in the UK you're supposed to get licences from the Performing
Rights Society (who handle royalties for composers & publishers) AND a
Public Performance Licence (royalties for playing the music recordings
themselves in public)

The shop owners insisted on playing their own playlist. No radio for
them. LMS with all its automation, virtual libraries, etc. proved
invaluable.

Of course in France we 'have a tax for that'
(https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vosdroits/F3094).
I think SACEM is the equivalent of the MCPS and SPRE is the equivalent
of PRS.
I don't believe SACEM (the collector) is investigating the blockchain or
any of that :P What you pay is a flat tax sized against your average
number of employees during the year. Which music plays, audience size
are irrelevant...



3 SB 3 • Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini • iPeng (iPhone + iPad) • LMS 7.9
(linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa
• IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) • Server Power Control by Gordon
Harris • Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael
Herger • PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple • Song Info, Song Lyrics by
Erland Isaksson • AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 • WeatherTime by Martin
Rehfeld • Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617

[arnyk]

Post by epoch1970
Sorry if the post is off topic for this forum.
I have put a player in a store a few weeks ago. People who work there
keep changing the volume on the player although it uses track replaygain
and plays at random from a specific library.
Not only they change volume but they have one single complain about the
system: it's either too soft or too loud. People's opinions vary in
time: it's not always "too loud" for the same person.
My personal take on this is that the ambient noise in the store varies
"a lot" between moments there are little customers and rush hour, while
the player keeps pushing audio at the same volume; if this is true, I
think something like an ambient microphone would help adjust player
volume automatically.

Good diagnosis.

Post by epoch1970
However I have no idea how I would make that really work, and before
starting I'd like to verify if this is -the- reason for these people's
swinging opinion about music volume.
Hence my question: what makes people say music is too loud or too soft?
I hope this is clear and not off-topic. If so I am eager to get your
inputs.

This same problem exists in motor vehicles. Some of the more
sophisticated vehicle sound systems automatically adjust the volume
depending on noise levels in the passenger compartment.

First cut, there may be existing commercial products that do this in the
more general case. Google is your friend.

Second cut, the feature is implemented by a variable gain circuit that
is controlled by the long-term averaged signal value on a special input
that may be hooked to a microphone in the space to be controlled. There
needs to be some feature that keeps the system from reacting to its own
adjustments to the music level.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617