Discussion:
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Software Updates
edwardthern
2016-12-03 14:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Just curious.

How often do you expect/want software updates to your favorite music
player?

Some players get updated on a regular basis, while others it seems are
in suspended animation.

PiCorePlayer seemed to be on a every month schedule +/-
RuneAudio maybe once a year or less
Volumio about the same as Rune
Moode maybe every few months

On the one hand I do wish my favorite players got updated weekly, I do
realize and respect that the code writers are really not getting paid
and most likely have full time jobs, lives etc that takes a priority
over developing a free software.


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DJanGo
2016-12-03 15:22:44 UTC
Permalink
On the one hand I do wish my favorite players got updated weekly.
thats a really good a idea!

i'll do a backport from triodes squeelite and add 54 minor bugs to it.
Now you'll be able to update your player once a week.
:p


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Julf
2016-12-03 15:24:53 UTC
Permalink
I want an update whenever there is an important security patch, or when
there is some real new functionality. Updates for updates sake make no
sense.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Wombat
2016-12-03 15:29:51 UTC
Permalink
We all know that software also needs a burn-in that can take several
hundred hours. No updates for me and my Windows 98SE still goes strong!



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edwardthern
2016-12-03 15:37:40 UTC
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You guys are forever the contrarians.

Okay once a week might be a bit much, but once a year is not enough.

I'd say at the very least update the software to keep in pace with the
base-OS, music player [ie MPD], alsa, etc. Not to mention there are
plenty of things that can be tweaked, added, improved so maybe once a
month is not too much.


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edwardthern
2016-12-03 15:41:03 UTC
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FWIW, YES I do check for updates for my desktop Linux computer just
about everyday.

I want the BLEEDING edge stuff....vs having just now upgraded to Win95
from DOS.


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Julf
2016-12-03 15:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by edwardthern
FWIW, YES I do check for updates for my desktop Linux computer just
about everyday.
All my linux machines (something like 20 of them) check for updates
automatically every night.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Mnyb
2016-12-03 15:50:35 UTC
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Well i don't know of Triodes wherabouts these days .

Many open souce project depends on thier devs .

LMS aka squezeeboxserver aka slimserver has a tradition of serving up a
snapshot of the latest ech day .

But what you'd expect ? I gladly munch the latest LMS trogh my system
to find a bug otr two :)
As a penance to this great community that somehow tolerates my presence
.

Features and changes that depends upon the product at hand ?

What kinda and of features do you watch out for ? When deciding to
upgrade ?

A player ? Ok any neww relevant formats ? Can't complience these a nea
OS update , thats a common concern



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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edwardthern
2016-12-03 16:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mnyb
Well i don't know of Triodes wherabouts these days .
Many open souce project depends on thier devs .
LMS aka squezeeboxserver aka slimserver has a tradition of serving up a
snapshot of the latest ech day .
But what you'd expect ? I gladly munch the latest LMS trogh my system
to find a bug otr two :)
As a penance to this great community that somehow tolerates my presence
.
Features and changes that depends upon the product at hand ?
What kinda and of features do you watch out for ? When deciding to
upgrade ?
A player ? Ok any new relevant formats ? compliance with a new OS
update , thats a common concern
Well, let me first say I appreciate everything you guys do with this
software or any software for that matter. The world as a whole owes you
mountains of gratitude. Like I said, I understand people have other
priorities, but nothing wrong with wishing. What I would really like to
do is to learn how to contribute in some small way to actually writing a
piece of code or changing a thing or two myself.

With all that said, some of the things I look out for fall into several
different categories.

User friendliness [GUI, look and feel, ergonomics, controls that make
sense] a bad example might be RuneAudio and switching the Renderer ie
Spotify. It also allows Upnp and Airplay...there is a "click to switch
renderer" button under library however the UPNP and Airplay buttons do
nothing, which according to Rune was the intended functionality. Also
Rune can upsample, however the user needs to SSH into Rune and enter a
command to do so....why not a toggle under MPD?

Kernel, Base-OS and music player - I really don't want a player that is
bricked when/if I try to update the kernel or internal music player. The
good thing with LMS and SL is that I can update either or both and still
be off and running after the update. Even adding plugins is not a
problem. So being able to update various items and add functionality
without bricking my player is a must. DietPi I can do this and more
without any problems ie add anything, update anything etc and still have
a working appliance.

Rich variety of music sources - Sure I don't have every single online
music service 'but' having the functionality and the flexibility of
connecting to a variety of music services is always a plus. Another bad
example is RoonLabs. Sure its flashy and new-ish but other than your
local music and manually adding web-radio URL's your only choice is
Tidal. One Linux music player I see as the benchmark [and their could be
others] is Clementine Music Player. It allows you to connect to a huge
variety of music sources including things like Google Drive.

Tweakability - Granted there are different camps...the bits-r-bits
people who think all tweaks are useless and fall under voodoo magic. And
those like myself who like to play around with the guts and tweak out
some glimmer of better performance if not for the placebo effect then
just for the fun of it. Again Diet-Pi is a great example, it has built
in functionality that allows users to set CPU affinity for processes,
change nice values and a whole bunch more.

Low resources - RoonLabs is an example of the biggest resource hog I
have ever seen. Seeing that you pretty much need a i5 or greater
computer with 4+ gigs of Ram just to get a basic level of performance
[RoonLabs Core]. On the other hand players like PiCorePlayer and DietPi
are barebone and do the job.


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Julf
2016-12-03 16:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by edwardthern
Tweakability - Granted there are different camps...the bits-r-bits
people who think all tweaks are useless and fall under voodoo magic. And
those like myself who like to play around with the guts and tweak out
some glimmer of better performance if not for the placebo effect then
just for the fun of it. Again Diet-Pi is a great example, it has built
in functionality that allows users to set CPU affinity for processes,
change nice values and a whole bunch more.
That easily turns into a support nightmare when people find all kinds of
misdirected suggestions on the net and get their systems into really
weird states.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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edwardthern
2016-12-03 16:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julf
That easily turns into a support nightmare when people find all kinds of
misdirected suggestions on the net and get their systems into really
weird states.
Perhaps, but then users can always just install a fresh copy and start
over. I tweak Dietpi and via their GUI I can just as easily un-tweak it,
or for that matter go all the way back to a base-OS with nothing
installed [n o alsa, no X-server absolutely nothing but SSHDropbear.
From this point I can install anything from a full desktop, Kodi, SL, or
any number of a dozen or more choices. Then tweak to my hearts content
again.....all without breaking anything.:D:D


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Wombat
2016-12-04 17:51:18 UTC
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...It was also --->ME<--- who suggested to them that they should change
their business plan and offer JRiver for Mac instead of concentrating on
Windows...seeing that Mac users...
I should PM Jim from jriver that i now have first hand info how he stole
that idea.
btw. It was me that asked my neighbour about some flat Star Trek alike
computer and now? Look, apple did the ipad!



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edwardthern
2016-12-05 00:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wombat
I should PM Jim from jriver that i now have first hand info how he stole
that idea.
btw. It was ME that asked my neighbour about some flat Star Trek alike
computer and now? Look, apple did the ipad!
Yes you should PM him, if he is honest enough and remembers 6+ years ago
he might tell the truth.

Don't know if the forums there go back that far but I used the name
"KingDoughnut"


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edwardthern
2016-12-05 00:36:30 UTC
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Post by edwardthern
Yes you should PM him, if he is honest enough and remembers 6+ years ago
he might tell the truth.
Don't know if the forums there go back that far but I used the name
"KingDoughnut"
Proof!!!

21631


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edwardthern
2016-12-05 01:09:44 UTC
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As you can see the whole concept of selling features Cafeteria Style and
using it to determine the value of features went over JRivers head.

21633


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Wombat
2016-12-05 01:16:51 UTC
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...load an entire cd into RAM...
You are still ahead of time :)



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edwardthern
2016-12-05 01:25:06 UTC
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Post by Wombat
...load an entire cd into RAM...
You are still ahead of time :)
Yeah I know, people think I exaggerate or lie about things. But as you
can see, I am to blame for WASAPI making it to JRIVER, at least when it
did....they would have probably implemented it sooner or later anyways
due to following the crowd.

FWIW, many of my "Tweaks" have made it into main stream media players
after being initially shot down and laughed at....oh well such is the
life of a genius :D:D


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edwardthern
2016-12-05 01:27:03 UTC
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Post by Wombat
...load an entire cd into RAM...
You are still ahead of time :)
So when are you going to PM Jim?

Oh and I'm waiting on your PROOF!:confused::confused:


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Wombat
2016-12-05 01:36:02 UTC
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"who suggested to them that they should change their business plan and
offer JRiver for Mac instead of concentrating on Windows"
Ok, so when Jim did not start the MAC version because of KingDoughnut
you promise to sign off here and shut up?



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edwardthern
2016-12-05 01:40:34 UTC
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Post by Wombat
"who suggested to them that they should change their business plan and
offer JRiver for Mac instead of concentrating on Windows"
Ok, so when Jim did not start the MAC version because of KingDoughnut
you promise to sign off here and shut up?
Sign off and shut up....NO WAY!!!! I'm just getting warmed up!!!!;););)

I have many more stories to tell...pull up a chair and have a doughnut
:cool:


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kidstypike
2016-12-03 16:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by edwardthern
You guys are forever the contrarians.
No we're not..



kidstypike

LMS on Raspberry Pi 3/max2play/HiFiBerry DAC+ > AVI DM5

1 x SB3 - 1 x Boom - 1 x (Squeezebox) Radio - 2 x Touch - 2 x Raspberry
Pi/piCorePlayer/HiFiBerry
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cliveb
2016-12-03 17:22:02 UTC
Permalink
I'm a great believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Ever since in my day job a Windows update destroyed an Oracle client
stack, I have been very wary of blindly accepting whatever updates
software vendors deem "useful".
(I'm sure there's a whole host of people who were not pleased when their
Win7 system automatically "updated" to Win10).

My Squeezebox Server machine is running SBS 7.6.1 (which was built in
August 2011) on an ancient version of Fedora 14.
It does everything I need, and runs flawlessly.
It never accesses the Internet and sits behind a NAT router, so there
are no security issues to worry about.
Why would I want to risk an update destabilising it?



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edwardthern
2016-12-03 17:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by cliveb
I'm a great believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Ever since in my day job a Windows update destroyed an Oracle client
stack, I have been very wary of blindly accepting whatever updates
software vendors deem "useful".
(I'm sure there's a whole host of people who were not pleased when their
Win7 system automatically "updated" to Win10).
My Squeezebox Server machine is running SBS 7.6.1 (which was built in
August 2011) on an ancient version of Fedora 14.
It does everything I need, and runs flawlessly.
It never accesses the Internet and sits behind a NAT router, so there
are no security issues to worry about.
Why would I want to risk an update destabilising it?
Thats good for you....surly you are not the only person who feels this
way.

A few hundred years ago I bet someone said the same thing about toilet
paper. If it ain't broke don't fix it, these leaves work just fine!!!

If anything your example just points to the robustness of Linux and LMS.
Which to Linux users is nothing new.


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pablolie
2016-12-03 19:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by edwardthern
...
A few hundred years ago I bet someone said the same thing about toilet
paper. If it ain't broke don't fix it, these leaves work just fine!!!
If anything your example just points to the robustness of Linux and LMS.
Which to Linux users is nothing new.
I think mistrusting updates is a best practice, especially when you have
something that works. People are way too eager to embrace the latest
update for no benefit whatsoever. This is true with smartphones,
computers... and the LMS ecosystem, no matter what OS it runs on.

I ran with Ubuntu 12.04 LMS until earlier this year, running it as a VM,
which means I can always migrate the environment anywhere, anytime, as
long as VMware decides to keep supporting Ubuntu 12 on their VM
Workstation/Player apps. Spotify however eventually became irritatingly
temperamental, though, which prompted me to experiment with the latest
Ubuntu LMS and a latter version of LMS. It has worked great. But note
that even though the LMS Web User IF reminds me constantly there is a
later version of 7.9.0 available, I have not bothered to update it, nor
do I apply any updates to Ubuntu 16.04. Why would I? All that VM is
supposed to do is run LMS, and run it as stable as possible, so I don't
mess with it. :-)



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine (on VMware Workstation 12) running Ubuntu 16.04
+ LMS 7.9
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem
DreamCatcher + Velodyne Minivee Sub
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado
PS500e/Shure 1540
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Wombat
2016-12-03 19:53:33 UTC
Permalink
I did regret my update to 16.04 for LMS. I didn't get 7.8 working and
fiddle with that pesky Intel Bay Trail desaster since.
https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=109051



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edwardthern
2016-12-03 20:15:26 UTC
Permalink
Nobody said updates were always 100% foolproof.

Still, there have been updates to the Linux ARM kernel that are required
to make some of the newer hardware work. For example, with the HiFiBerry
Digi + Pro you will need the latest kernel update in order to get it to
work.

ALSA had two updates this year and MPD had 7 updates so far....in
addition I have updated the ARM Kernel several times this year as well.
Although some 'fear' updates [as you should with Microsoft] the real
purpose is to fix bugs, improve performance and add new
functionality....all of which I have reaped the benefits of without any
problems.

So if it ain't broke, Improve It!!


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pablolie
2016-12-03 20:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by edwardthern
Nobody said updates were always 100% foolproof.
Still, there have been updates to the Linux ARM kernel that are required
to make some of the newer hardware work. For example, with the HiFiBerry
Digi + Pro you will need the latest kernel update in order to get it to
work.
ALSA had two updates this year and MPD had 7 updates so far....in
addition I have updated the ARM Kernel several times this year as well.
Although some 'fear' updates [as you should with Microsoft] the real
purpose is to fix bugs, improve performance and add new
functionality....all of which I have reaped the benefits of without any
problems.
So if it ain't broke, Improve It!!
You only benefit from those updates on machines that see more universal
use. If it's your main desktop or laptop, by all means improve it and
keep it secure. If it's an isolated, highly specialized machine that
runs only *one* function... why bother with updates, unless it presents
an unacceptable security risk (if you made it past my firewall, feel
free to hack my LMS server all you want, that doesn't worry me), and as
to performance, I am perfectly happy with the way it works. If I wasn't,
I'd assign another CPU core and more memory to the VM. I do update stuff
when I feel it provides some real benefit, as in -for example- easily
future-proofing my LMS for another 4 years at least.

You'd be surprised how many corporations run even business critical
services on utterly obsolete software versions for exactly those
reasons...



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine (on VMware Workstation 12) running Ubuntu 16.04
+ LMS 7.9
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem
DreamCatcher + Velodyne Minivee Sub
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado
PS500e/Shure 1540
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edwardthern
2016-12-03 20:42:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by pablolie
You only benefit from those updates on machines that see more universal
use. If it's your main desktop or laptop, by all means improve it and
keep it secure. If it's an isolated, highly specialized machine that
runs only *one* function... why bother with updates, unless it presents
an unacceptable security risk. My Ubuntu machine running LMS doesn't
need ALSA for anything, so I am fine with it staying put. As to security
- if you make it past my firewall, feel free to hack my LMS server all
you want, that doesn't worry me :-), and as to performance, I am
perfectly happy with the way it works. If I wasn't, I'd assign another
CPU core and more memory to the VM. I do update stuff when I feel it
provides some real benefit, as in -for example- easily future-proofing
my LMS for another 4 years at least.
You'd be surprised how many corporations run even business critical
services on utterly obsolete software versions for exactly those
reasons...
Actually if you read a little closer you might notice that the
updates/improvements were gained from "Single Purpose Audio Computers"
re: Alsa, MPD, Kernel updates required for HW functionality.

And I find the converse true in terms of updates and upgrades in ref to
single purpose appliances and desktop computers. For a desktop which
does everything I want it too I really don't need any updates....I'd set
it and forget it.

Personally I don't like VM's....but to each their own.


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pablolie
2016-12-04 02:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by edwardthern
Actually if you read a little closer you might notice that the
updates/improvements were gained from "Single Purpose Audio Computers"
re: Alsa, MPD, Kernel updates required for HW functionality.
.
None of that benefits an LMS server, but to each their own approach.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine (on VMware Workstation 12) running Ubuntu 16.04
+ LMS 7.9
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem
DreamCatcher + Velodyne Minivee Sub
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado
PS500e/Shure 1540
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reinholdk
2016-12-03 17:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by edwardthern
You guys are forever the contrarians.
depends ;)


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