Discussion:
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking suggestions for a new term/label
Julf
2015-07-11 14:59:07 UTC
Permalink
It has become clear from some of the threads here that we need a new
term to describe a certain behaviour, where someone engages in something
resembling trolling ("sowing discord on the Internet by starting
arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or
off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum,
chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into
an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic
discussion."), but with a specific intent to promote a belief system or
commercial agenda. In that sense, it also resembles astroturfing ("the
use of fake grassroots efforts that primarily focus on influencing
public opinion"), sockpuppets ("misleading uses of online identities,
such as those created to praise, defend or support a person or
organization") and meatpuppets ("community members that have been
recruited by an existing member to support their position").

The best terms I can think of are "astrotroll" for those with a
commercial agenda, and "cosmotroll" for those with a purely ideological,
non-commercial agenda, but I would love to hear suggestions for terms
better describing these behaviours.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Gandhi
2015-07-11 16:54:37 UTC
Permalink
I don't know, but a quote comes to mind.

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level
and then beat you with experience.
— Mark Twain



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
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mooblie
2015-07-14 14:02:25 UTC
Permalink
"snakeoiling"?



Martin at
*_'HeadSpin_HD'
(http://www.headspin.plus.com)_* now on -*Blu-ray-*
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doctor_big
2015-07-14 17:49:15 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> It has become clear from some of the threads here that we need a new
> term to describe a certain behaviour, where someone engages in something
> resembling trolling ("sowing discord on the Internet by starting
> arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or
> off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum,
> chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into
> an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic
> discussion."), but with a specific intent to promote a belief system or
> commercial agenda. In that sense, it also resembles astroturfing ("the
> use of fake grassroots efforts that primarily focus on influencing
> public opinion"), sockpuppets ("misleading uses of online identities,
> such as those created to praise, defend or support a person or
> organization") and meatpuppets ("community members that have been
> recruited by an existing member to support their position").
>
> The best terms I can think of are "astrotroll" for those with a
> commercial agenda, and "cosmotroll" for those with a purely ideological,
> non-commercial agenda, but I would love to hear suggestions for terms
> better describing these behaviours.
You mean like arny? The guy who doesn't own a Squeezebox and come to a
Squeezebox-specific website to troll and fight?

Like him?




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doctor_big
2015-07-14 17:52:10 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> It has become clear from some of the threads here that we need a new
> term to describe a certain behaviour, where someone engages in something
> resembling trolling ("sowing discord on the Internet by starting
> arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or
> off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum,
> chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into
> an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic
> discussion."), but with a specific intent to promote a belief system or
> commercial agenda. In that sense, it also resembles astroturfing ("the
> use of fake grassroots efforts that primarily focus on influencing
> public opinion"), sockpuppets ("misleading uses of online identities,
> such as those created to praise, defend or support a person or
> organization") and meatpuppets ("community members that have been
> recruited by an existing member to support their position").
>
> The best terms I can think of are "astrotroll" for those with a
> commercial agenda, and "cosmotroll" for those with a purely ideological,
> non-commercial agenda, but I would love to hear suggestions for terms
> better describing these behaviours.
Or like the wankers who troll the audiophile forum just so they can feel
self important as they set upon anyone who dares to try and talk about
AUDIOPHILE Stuff in the AUDIOPHILE forum?

Like those guys?




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jkeny
2015-07-14 19:01:02 UTC
Permalink
I suggest that people should look through the recent threads in this
Audiophile section - firstly, look at the names of the threads & who
started them.
Then look at the consistent posters & the number of posts they have in
each & every thread in this section.

Then decide who are the trolls in the Audiophile section.


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arnyk
2015-07-14 19:22:42 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> I suggest that people should look through the recent threads in this
> Audiophile section - firstly, look at the names of the threads & who
> started them.
> Then look at the consistent posters & the number of posts they have in
> each & every thread in this section.
>
> Then decide who are the trolls in the Audiophile section.

jkeny you would be pretty high on that list.

The fact jkeny that you are incapable of answering many reasonable
questions might help you. But that just points out the fallacy of your
technique - it favors ignorance and a lack of intellectual interest.


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Julf
2015-07-14 19:52:08 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> Or like the wankers who troll the audiophile forum just so they can feel
> self important as they set upon anyone who dares to try and talk about
> AUDIOPHILE Stuff in the AUDIOPHILE forum?

How do you define "AUDIOPHILE" stuff?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Mnyb
2015-07-14 20:09:28 UTC
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Julf wrote:
> How do you define "AUDIOPHILE" stuff?

You are on a descent down to "their" level :)



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MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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ralphpnj
2015-07-14 22:26:14 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> Or like the wankers who troll the audiophile forum just so they can feel
> self important as they set upon anyone who dares to try and talk about
> AUDIOPHILE Stuff in the AUDIOPHILE forum?
>
> Like those guys?

Pray tell - what would any self respecting audiophile be doing on the
Slimdevices forum?

Perhaps trying to find out which Internet music streaming service sounds
best in the background?

As far as I can tell from looking at the latest issues of all the high
end magazines disc and vinyl playback remain the dominant ways of that
audiophiles listen to music. Streaming is either used for background
listening and any computer based music listening involves some type of
Apple device along with $500 USB cables and an asynchronous USB DAC.

So again I ask: what would any self respecting audiophile be doing on
the Slimdevices forum?

And just in case I'm not making myself perfectly clear: many of us on
this forum have abandoned the world of high end audio and audiophiles in
much the same that high end audio and audiophiles abandoned the very
serious and high quality music streaming offered by the Squeezebox line
of music streaming devices.

So don't think of this section as "audiophile" in the normal sense of
the word but rather as "audiophile" defined by a $300 device with
plastic case, which is isn't audiophile at all.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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philippe_44
2015-07-14 23:49:40 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
>
>
> So again I ask: what would any self respecting audiophile be doing on
> the Slimdevices forum?
>
> And just in case I'm not making myself perfectly clear: many of us on
> this forum have abandoned the world of high end audio and audiophiles in
> much the same that high end audio and audiophiles abandoned the very
> serious and high quality music streaming offered by the Squeezebox line
> of music streaming devices.
>
> So don't think of this section as "audiophile" in the normal sense of
> the word but rather as "audiophile" defined by a $300 device with
> plastic case, which is isn't audiophile at all.

The voice (sound) of reason :)



LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne
(sort of)
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doctor_big
2015-07-15 01:56:32 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> Pray tell - what would any self respecting audiophile be doing on the
> Slimdevices forum?
>
> Perhaps trying to find out which Internet music streaming service sounds
> best in the background?
>
> <snipped redundant blather about how the big, bad audio press has ruined
> everything for everyone, is running the world and melting the polar ice
> caps> <snipped strawman argument about how audiophiles couldn't possibly
> own Squeezeboxes>.

So no audiophiles want to hang around in the AUDIOPHILE section of this
forum, because you say so therefore it must be true. But just in case
they did happen to post an AUDIOPHILE query or observation about
something YOU don't believe in because an ABX has shown it's too blunt
of an instrument to pick it up, well hey - *you're here to run them
off*.

Got it. Carry on.

Jason

PS:
Did you ever - just for a second - think that this sub-forum was created
just so that there WAS a place where these audiophiles you so love to
ridicule (and get a cheap buzz from doing so) could talk about cables
and stuff without having to deal with you bunch of cheerless bullies?
Why do you glean such a sour pleasure from ridiculing and name-calling a
group that really doesn't want anything to do with you? Why not leave
them in peace in a nice, damp little corner of this forum? What sad
character flaws do you have that this activity soothes?


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arnyk
2015-07-15 01:59:31 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> But just in case they did happen to post an AUDIOPHILE query or
> observation about something YOU don't believe in because an ABX has
> shown it's too blunt of an instrument to pick it up

Pray tell where there is reliable evidence that ABX is "...too blunt of
an instrument to pick it up..."


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ralphpnj
2015-07-15 03:05:47 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> So no audiophiles want to hang around in the AUDIOPHILE section of this
> forum, because you say so therefore it must be true. But just in case
> they did happen to post an AUDIOPHILE query or observation about
> something YOU don't believe in because an ABX has shown it's too blunt
> of an instrument to pick it up, well hey - *you're here to run them
> off*.
>
> Got it. Carry on.
>
> Jason
>
> PS:
> Did you ever - just for a second - think that this sub-forum was created
> just so that there WAS a place where these audiophiles you so love to
> ridicule (and get a cheap buzz from doing so) could talk about cables
> and stuff without having to deal with you bunch of cheerless bullies?
> Why do you glean such a sour pleasure from ridiculing and name-calling a
> group that really doesn't want anything to do with you? Why not leave
> them in peace in a nice, damp little corner of this forum? What sad
> character flaws do you have that this activity soothes?

You must be mistaking me for someone else. Read my posts - I try very
hard NOT to make personal attacks on fellow posters but I am certainly
guilty of making sarcastic comments about audiophiles IN GENERAL and the
members of the audiophile press, whom I've now stopped calling clowns,
out of respect for real clowns.

But again I have to ask you - why on earth would any self respecting
audiophile even look at, let alone post, on this forum? Everything I've
read in the audiophile press for the past several years runs counter to
the "typical" Squeezebox system many of us enjoy, i.e. a remotely
located computer running LMS, often with one or more external hard
drives, and streaming ALL our music, i.e. not just background music, to
the lowly plastic Touch, which is often connected to a very nice
outboard DAC. Oh and many of us even use digital room correction (I
don't...yet). No 32bit/192kHz files, no Amarra software, no USB DAC and,
if can you believe it, no DSD. The horror!! Five minutes listening my
Squeezebox centered stereo and the average audiophile's golden ears
would be a bloody mess. So please instead of attacking us you should be
pitying us poor misguided fools. No DSD, really how could any audiophile
even think to take anything on this forum seriously.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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philippe_44
2015-07-15 05:21:29 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> S
> PS:
> Did you ever - just for a second - think that this sub-forum was created
> just so that there WAS a place where these audiophiles you so love to
> ridicule (and get a cheap buzz from doing so) could talk about cables
> and stuff without having to deal with you bunch of cheerless bullies?
> Why do you glean such a sour pleasure from ridiculing and name-calling a
> group that really doesn't want anything to do with you? Why not leave
> them in peace in a nice, damp little corner of this forum? What sad
> character flaws do you have that this activity soothes?

Point taken, but although not being involved in these flame wars, I
recently had to see them through the invasion of the "what's new"
timeline that was eaten up by the audiophile sub-forum.

I think what is making the people with a scientific background (over)
reacting is when some people are in denial of simple scientific facts on
the principle "are you sure, there might be something you don't know,
open up". I even admit that I'm jumping a bit when I see discussions
like "a file transmitted by email sounded more echo-ish" ... well no,
this is the same file and I can explain and demonstrate the theory of
code correction.

But there is nothing wrong to have a better experience with an equipment
that looks more refined or that you took hours to setup and polish. It
sounds better to you and this is not "imagination", this is just adding
extra sensorial factors to the experience, but factors that have nothing
to do with the sound characteristics. And the experience is unique, is
yours.

On another discussion, I was making the parallel with eating: I can make
the (almost) exact same meal at the molecular level and serve it at the
same T°. Now, if you serve this to me in a nice and quiet restaurant,
nice plates and glasses, polite waiter on a cool summer evening, I will
probably tell you that the food tastes much better than the same one
served in a noisy place, in plastic plates & glasses and with a waiter
throwing meal at my table - and it *does* taste better and that
experience can be repeated as many times as you want. But that's me.
Some might have no sensitivity to the loudness of the restaurant and
won't see any difference.

That would be as foolish from me to try to prove the difference by some
effect at the food atomic level as it would be foolish to say that
because things are the same at atomic level, then all of us have to feel
the same eating experience/pleasure.

This is not relativism of everything, but just recognition of the
multi-factor aspect of listening experience whose only some part can be
quantified, but at least let's not waste our time on arguing on the
quantifiable parts when they are the same.



LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne
(sort of)
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Mnyb
2015-07-15 06:03:32 UTC
Permalink
But the original topic of the tread was not about garden variety
audiophiles ?

But the idea of a person always argue for misconceptions and popular
audiophile beliefs not only because ( or not at all ) personal beliefs ,
but to the prepare the ground .

Example if you sell expensive cables , you be outed quickly if you start
to shill your brand in forums and press .

But if you instead always argue in favour for exotic cables in general
?

I liked snakeoiler btw.

On the topic . The opposite to this behaviour .I never ever seen an
article in the popular audio press discussing the limits of human
hearing and psychoacoustic .
Where do we stand , can we detect stuff -70dB below the signal 0.5% -
0.1% THD ( midrange , bass several % is undetectable ) ? This changes as
research progress .

Hence why I sometimes ask the simple question in some of the treads ."
Show me that we can detect any anomaly at the ->100dB level regardless
of origin " .
That said of course I want equipment to perform much better than that ,
I'm after all some kind of audiophile I want good stuff .
But as the discourse is not reality based high end stands still or
reverse technically and gets more expensive at the same time .

If the discourse was reality based , we thrown over expensive cables at
the wayside by now for example and used our efforts in ways that really
further the art .

That's the thing audio press audiophiles and manufacturers spend their
resources at stuff that does not really further the art of music
reproduction , it will be so as long as money can be made . Hey pseudo
science is much cheaper than real science just make stuff up ! Favorite
example the amp brand Lavardin invented a new type of distortion that
could not be measured in the traditional way ;) and oh yes their product
also fixed that ( in reality their amps have quite a lot of distortion
but of the ear pleasing kind ).



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Mnyb
2015-07-15 06:11:50 UTC
Permalink
Seems like some want to define audiophile stuff as everything that does
not work in audio .( like alternative medicine is all stuff that does
not really work in medicin ) .

What I would love is to see the debate go over to stuff that really
matters instead of wasting time at dead ends . And that that could be
called audiophile stuff instead :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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doctor_big
2015-07-15 17:36:30 UTC
Permalink
philippe_44 wrote:
> Point taken, but although not being involved in these flame wars, I
> recently had to see them through the invasion of the "what's new"
> timeline that was eaten up by the audiophile sub-forum.
>
> I think what is making the people with a scientific background (over)
> reacting is when some people are in denial of simple scientific facts on
> the principle "are you sure, there might be something you don't know,
> open up". I even admit that I'm jumping a bit when I see discussions
> like "a file transmitted by email sounded more echo-ish" ... well no,
> this is the same file and I can explain and demonstrate the theory of
> code correction.
>
> But there is nothing wrong to have a better experience with an equipment
> that looks more refined or that you took hours to setup and polish. It
> sounds better to you and this is not "imagination", this is just adding
> extra sensorial factors to the experience, but factors that have nothing
> to do with the sound characteristics. And the experience is unique, is
> yours.
>
> On another discussion, I was making the parallel with eating: I can make
> the (almost) exact same meal at the molecular level and serve it at the
> same T°. Now, if you serve this to me in a nice and quiet restaurant,
> nice plates and glasses, polite waiter on a cool summer evening, I will
> probably tell you that the food tastes much better than the same one
> served in a noisy place, in plastic plates & glasses and with a waiter
> throwing meal at my table - and it *does* taste better and that
> experience can be repeated as many times as you want. But that's me.
> Some might have no sensitivity to the loudness of the restaurant and
> won't see any difference.
>
> That would be as foolish from me to try to prove the difference by some
> effect at the food atomic level as it would be foolish to say that
> because things are the same at atomic level, then all of us have to feel
> the same eating experience/pleasure.
>
> This is not relativism of everything, but just recognition of the
> multi-factor aspect of listening experience whose only some part can be
> quantified, but at least let's not waste our time on arguing on the
> quantifiable parts when they are the same.

Philippe, you're a huge contributor to this ecosystem and for that you
have my utmost respect. And I think you definitely get what I'm trying
to say. I too am saddened by Jkeny's and Arny's relentless squabbles,
although I am rooting for JK to come out on top as at least he owns a SB
and is part of this community - kruger is here to fight only. He's the
master baiter.

Still, this behaviour doesn't have to be. If you scorn homeopaths, you
don't go to a homeopath conference and start hollering about science.
But if a homeopath comes to a research lab at a university and starts
yelling about how everyone's doing it wrong, well then - he's fair game.
And that's what's going on here. Someone wants to chat about how
lifting his cables off the floor "removes veils" from the sound, or how
an emailed file sounds different... who is he hurting. You and I know
it's bullshit, but why dogpile on him as these goons are doing? If they
post nonsense in the General forum, well it's game on, but look at the
name of this sub-forum - AUDIOPHILES.

This ralphy guy must have been beaten up by a gang of audio reviewers,
or maybe his wife cheated on him with an audiophile? Who knows. But
this behaviour of him and his buddies is truly irrational. I come to
this forum every few days to see what's new with plugins, hardware,
software and the like. As you stated, these flame wars are at the top
of the list. But I can't blame Jkeny for responding to the thuggish
actions of the four or five goons who provoke and ridicule a harmless
affectation of those who want to play with wires and gear and talk about
it in the appropriate place.

To follow up with your analogy regarding food. Say you spend $500 on a
hand-made, forged Japanese chef's knife. You buy high-end waterstones
to polish and refine the edge, which you get down to one molecule and it
glows blue when Orcs are around. You make a meal with this knife, and
-- as you said -- your pride in what you did makes it taste better.
Wouldn't it suck to post this pride in your work on a forum and have a
bunch of cheerless wankers jump all over you saying you wasted your
money and that a $50 Wusthorf is as good?

Really, there's plenty of room on the internet for everyone. Why spoil
the fun of others?

Jason


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ralphpnj
2015-07-15 17:59:56 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> Philippe, you're a huge contributor to this ecosystem and for that you
> have my utmost respect. And I think you definitely get what I'm trying
> to say. I too am saddened by Jkeny's and Arny's relentless squabbles,
> although I am rooting for JK to come out on top as at least he owns a SB
> and is part of this community - kruger is here to fight only. He's the
> master baiter.
>
> Still, this behaviour doesn't have to be. If you scorn homeopaths, you
> don't go to a homeopath conference and start hollering about science.
> But if a homeopath comes to a research lab at a university and starts
> yelling about how everyone's doing it wrong, well then - he's fair game.
> And that's what's going on here. Someone wants to chat about how
> lifting his cables off the floor "removes veils" from the sound, or how
> an emailed file sounds different... who is he hurting. You and I know
> it's bullshit, but why dogpile on him as these goons are doing? If they
> post nonsense in the General forum, well it's game on, but look at the
> name of this sub-forum - AUDIOPHILES.
>
> This ralphy guy must have been beaten up by a gang of audio reviewers,
> or maybe his wife cheated on him with an audiophile? Who knows. But
> this behaviour of him and his buddies is truly irrational. I come to
> this forum every few days to see what's new with plugins, hardware,
> software and the like. As you stated, these flame wars are at the top
> of the list. But I can't blame Jkeny for responding to the thuggish
> actions of the four or five goons who provoke and ridicule a harmless
> affectation of those who want to play with wires and gear and talk about
> it in the appropriate place.
>
> To follow up with your analogy regarding food. Say you spend $500 on a
> hand-made, forged Japanese chef's knife. You buy high-end waterstones
> to polish and refine the edge, which you get down to one molecule and it
> glows blue when Orcs are around. You make a meal with this knife, and
> -- as you said -- your pride in what you did makes it taste better.
> Wouldn't it suck to post this pride in your work on a forum and have a
> bunch of cheerless wankers jump all over you saying you wasted your
> money and that a $50 Wusthorf is as good?
>
> Really, there's plenty of room on the internet for everyone. Why spoil
> the fun of others?
>
> Jason

Jason, I'm confused as to why you single me out. Many of my posts simply
try to point out how and why audiophiles are being duped, which I blame
on the "experts" - whether they be audiophile writers, editors or
manufacturers (and their marketing and advertising departments).
Individual audiophiles, with no commercial interests, can believe
whatever they chose to believe, however when they state these beliefs as
facts, facts that counter to accepted and well established science, well
then I have no problem calling them out and asking them to provide real
proof that these beliefs are facts rather than mere fantasies.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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doctor_big
2015-07-15 18:40:51 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> Jason, I'm confused as to why you single me out. Many of my posts simply
> try to point out how and why audiophiles are being duped, which I blame
> on the "experts" - whether they be audiophile writers, editors or
> manufacturers (and their marketing and advertising departments).
> Individual audiophiles, with no commercial interests, can believe
> whatever they chose to believe, however when they state these beliefs as
> facts, facts that counter to accepted and well established science, well
> then I have no problem calling them out and asking them to provide real
> proof that these beliefs are facts rather than mere fantasies.

In all honesty -

1) because you incessantly repeat the same diatribe about the audio
press. Ok. We get it. It's not that big a deal, and nobody else really
cares. Audio magazines are about advertising, and advertorials for the
most part. Same goes for auto mags. And fashion. Watches. Cigars.
Travel. Home furnishings. Who really gives a damn? You whinge on about
this as if it's some profound truism, or as if you're revealing who was
behind the grassy knoll. Give it a rest.

2) because you come first to mind (I don't really know why) regarding
the constant sneering at audiophiles. I could easily substitute any of
the others in your little gang, but I can't be bothered. I memorized
your name, so you'll do. This behaviour comes across as a pathology -
you protest too much and as such I would wager there's some dark little
secret that compels you to do this. It's pathetic.

Further, you (and this could be the royal -you-) harp on about
established science, as if you're a -scientist!- But you take this one
little corner - ABX etc - and trot it out as if it's the final, proven,
de facto physical law that proves - -proves- I say - that there is no
difference between a 90's era CD player and state of the art digital
from the present day (or any other such -no difference- mantra - take
your pick). A real scientist - someone who's actually interested in
getting to the truth rather than furthering an agenda - would look at
the situation and say "well, they swear that they're hearing a
difference, and ABX doesn't reveal it. Let's try something else."

What that something else is - I have no idea. I don't have enough skin
in the game to spend time digging it out. But you blather on about
pseudoscience all the while ignoring true scientific method.

Will that do?
Jason


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Julf
2015-07-15 18:49:54 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> Further, you (and this could be the royal -you-) harp on about
> established science, as if you're a -scientist!-

Because some of us are. Even more of us are engineers. Engineering is
applied science - that is what audio is.

> But you take this one little corner - ABX etc - and trot it out as if
> it's the final, proven, de facto physical law that proves - -proves- I
> say - that there is no difference between a 90's era CD player and state
> of the art digital from the present day (or any other such -no
> difference- mantra - take your pick). A real scientist - someone who's
> actually interested in getting to the truth rather than furthering an
> agenda - would look at the situation and say "well, they swear that
> they're hearing a difference, and ABX doesn't reveal it. Let's try
> something else."

But that is exactly what "subjectivists" seem to miss - we have done
exactly that. There are pretty well understood and verified scientific
explanations as to why people hear a difference, but the science is
perceptional science and psychology.

> But you blather on about pseudoscience all the while ignoring true
> scientific method.

"The scientific method is an ongoing process, which usually begins with
observations about the natural world. Human beings are naturally
inquisitive, so they often come up with questions about things they see
or hear and often develop ideas (hypotheses) about why things are the
way they are. The best hypotheses lead to predictions that can be tested
in various ways, including making further observations about nature. In
general, the strongest tests of hypotheses come from carefully
controlled and replicated experiments that gather empirical data.
Depending on how well the tests match the predictions, the original
hypothesis may require refinement, alteration, expansion or even
rejection. If a particular hypothesis becomes very well supported a
general theory may be developed.

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another,
identifiable features are frequently shared in common between them. The
overall process of the scientific method involves making conjectures
(hypotheses), deriving predictions from them as logical consequences,
and then carrying out experiments based on those predictions. A
hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while
formulating the question. The hypothesis might be very specific or it
might be broad. Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting
experiments. Under modern interpretations, a scientific hypothesis must
be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible
outcome of an experiment that conflicts with predictions deduced from
the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully
tested.

The purpose of an experiment is to determine whether observations agree
with or conflict with the predictions derived from a hypothesis.[8]
Experiments can take place in a college lab, on a kitchen table, at
CERN's Large Hadron Collider, at the bottom of an ocean, on Mars, and so
on."

So what specific parts are we ignoring?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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doctor_big
2015-07-15 19:30:52 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> Because some of us are. Even more of us are engineers. Engineering is
> applied science - that is what audio is.
>
>
>
> But that is exactly what "subjectivists" seem to miss - we have done
> exactly that. There are pretty well understood and verified scientific
> explanations as to why people hear a difference, but the science is
> perceptional science and psychology.
>
>
>
> "The scientific method is an ongoing process, which usually begins with
> observations about the natural world. Human beings are naturally
> inquisitive, so they often come up with questions about things they see
> or hear and often develop ideas (hypotheses) about why things are the
> way they are. The best hypotheses lead to predictions that can be tested
> in various ways, including making further observations about nature. In
> general, the strongest tests of hypotheses come from carefully
> controlled and replicated experiments that gather empirical data.
> Depending on how well the tests match the predictions, the original
> hypothesis may require refinement, alteration, expansion or even
> rejection. If a particular hypothesis becomes very well supported a
> general theory may be developed.
>
> Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another,
> identifiable features are frequently shared in common between them. The
> overall process of the scientific method involves making conjectures
> (hypotheses), deriving predictions from them as logical consequences,
> and then carrying out experiments based on those predictions. A
> hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while
> formulating the question. The hypothesis might be very specific or it
> might be broad. Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting
> experiments. Under modern interpretations, a scientific hypothesis must
> be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible
> outcome of an experiment that conflicts with predictions deduced from
> the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully
> tested.
>
> The purpose of an experiment is to determine whether observations agree
> with or conflict with the predictions derived from a hypothesis.[8]
> Experiments can take place in a college lab, on a kitchen table, at
> CERN's Large Hadron Collider, at the bottom of an ocean, on Mars, and so
> on."
>
> So what specific parts are we ignoring?

Yes, yes, yes. I understand scientific method. But you (again, your
group) are agenda driven. I've seen the "tests" you perform where you
set up two utterly different systems - one lo-fi, one upper-mid-fi, and
abx them behind a screen. You trot out a bunch of audiophiles who are
utterly wamboozled and unable to differentiate which one is X.

I've taken these tests and know how incredibly difficult they are, even
when there's an easily-verifiable difference waiting to be noticed. If
you're not practiced at it -- really well practiced -- you're gonna flub
the test.

So, I am quite convinced by my own experience that ABX is not a valid
test for subtle differences in audio. JH901 or whatever his name is, is
trying to set up an ABX test using cables. Without even knowing the
scenario in detail, I do know that if he sets the test up correctly he's
going to fail miserably. Does that mean there's no difference? I
really don't know. I hear differences in cables, but I can't say for
sure whether it's expectation bias or a real difference that flies under
the ABX radar. I suspect the latter, but have no way of proving it.
I'm not about to spend my time and money trying to figure out how better
to run or create a test, but my suspicions are, I feel, the basis for
audiophile's rejection of ABX. It seems wrong, and nobody's trying to
figure out anything better. There's no money in it, so nobody's putting
effort into it.

As I stated up front, I feel that you're 100% agenda driven, so I don't
expect you to find any merit in what I'm saying, but I had to try. I'm
gone now, until my blood pressure boils up again in a month or so.

Jason


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Julf
2015-07-16 14:26:52 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> I've seen the "tests" you perform where you set up two utterly different
> systems - one lo-fi, one upper-mid-fi, and abx them behind a screen. You
> trot out a bunch of audiophiles who are utterly wamboozled and unable to
> differentiate which one is X.

Not sure what test you are referring to.

> So, I am quite convinced by my own experience that ABX is not a valid
> test for subtle differences in audio. JH901 or whatever his name is, is
> trying to set up an ABX test using cables. Without even knowing the
> scenario in detail, I do know that if he sets the test up correctly he's
> going to fail miserably. Does that mean there's no difference? I
> really don't know.

The problem is that we have numerous examples where measurements show
there are no differences, but people hear differences - as long as it is
a sighted test. As soon as you remove that one component (being able to
know which system is which), the differences disappear. At the same
time, perceptional research has shown that our preconceived notions of
what we should hear actually makes us hear exactly what we expect to
hear - even if there is no actual difference. So what is the reasonable
conclusion? That there is some magical property in our audio systems
that can't be measured, and can't be heard in double-blind (not just
ABX) tests?

> I hear differences in cables, but I can't say for sure whether it's
> expectation bias or a real difference that flies under the ABX radar. I
> suspect the latter, but have no way of proving it.

It would not be impossible to prove. There are many other ways to do
double-blind tests - ABX is not the only method. Have you heard of
MUSHRA (MUltiple Stimuli with Hidden Reference and Anchor)?

Do you think people like the International Telecommunication Union are
wrong in specifying double-blind as their standard test method?

> Just because you have a background in science doesn't mean you aren't
> agenda driven or biased. Wakefield was a scientist, right? Remember
> him? The autism/MMR guy? A background in science doesn't grant you a
> free pass.

Indeed. No background, degree or reputation gives anyone a free pass.
That is one of the great things about science - it's not about who you
are or what your motivation is - it is about the factual evidence you
present.

You are right in that I definitely have an agenda - I passionately hate
pseudoscience, and believe audio is based on sound engineering
principles, not voodoo.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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toby10
2015-07-16 14:43:09 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> .... last word - I promise (myself). Just because you have a background
> in science doesn't mean you aren't agenda driven or biased. Wakefield
> was a scientist, right? Remember him? The autism/MMR guy? A
> background in science doesn't grant you a free pass.

For which he and his completely bogus un-scientific study was
resoundingly refuted and discredited. Yet a few fringe believers, void
of logic-reason-science, continue to believe his fictional claims and
place their children and society at risk of completely preventable
diseases.

Wakefield had an agenda and cooked the numbers to bias his agenda.
Sound familiar? ;)


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Julf
2015-07-16 14:48:13 UTC
Permalink
toby10 wrote:
> For which he and his completely bogus un-scientific study was
> resoundingly refuted and discredited.

Exactly. Refuted and discredited based on facts and evidence - not
rhetoric, personal attacks and subjective anecdotes.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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ralphpnj
2015-07-15 19:32:52 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> In all honesty -
>
> 1) because you incessantly repeat the same diatribe about the audio
> press. Ok. We get it. It's not that big a deal, and nobody else really
> cares. Audio magazines are about advertising, and advertorials for the
> most part. Same goes for auto mags. And fashion. Watches. Cigars.
> Travel. Home furnishings. Who really gives a damn? You whinge on about
> this as if it's some profound truism, or as if you're revealing who was
> behind the grassy knoll. Give it a rest.
>
> 2) because you come first to mind (I don't really know why) regarding
> the constant sneering at audiophiles. I could easily substitute any of
> the others in your little gang, but I can't be bothered. I memorized
> your name, so you'll do. This behaviour comes across as a pathology -
> you protest too much and as such I would wager there's some dark little
> secret that compels you to do this. It's pathetic.
>
> Further, you (and this could be the royal -you-) harp on about
> established science, as if you're a -scientist!- But you take this one
> little corner - ABX etc - and trot it out as if it's the final, proven,
> de facto physical law that proves - -proves- I say - that there is no
> difference between a 90's era CD player and state of the art digital
> from the present day (or any other such -no difference- mantra - take
> your pick). A real scientist - someone who's actually interested in
> getting to the truth rather than furthering an agenda - would look at
> the situation and say "well, they swear that they're hearing a
> difference, and ABX doesn't reveal it. Let's try something else."
>
> What that something else is - I have no idea. I don't have enough skin
> in the game to spend time digging it out. But you blather on about
> pseudoscience all the while ignoring true scientific method.
>
> Will that do?
> Jason
>
> edit: and further, did you ever - for a second - think that people might
> WANT to be duped by the audiophile press? "I want that thick black
> power cable because it makes up for my tiny, white dick." Whatever the
> reason, people don't need to be protected against the wicked audiophile
> press by YOU. Find a cause that really matters. There are tons of them
> out there.

In all honesty because the disinformation and misinformation presently
being waged by the fossil fuel industry against the very hard and real
science of climate change has a very good chance of bringing about the
end of modern civilization. I fully believe that the real heroes
throughout the history mankind have been and continue to those with the
courage to speak truth to power since that is perhaps the most dangerous
thing one can do.

I see the world of high end audio has a tiny (and for the most part,
meaningless) microcosm of the system of the powerful holding sway over
the powerless, except that in the case of audio the powerless not really
powerless, just misinformed.

Look it's not like the objecivists here are fighting new battles - many,
if not most, of the things that we are squabbling over have a long
history of being refuted by science - sighted listening (aka anecdotal
evidence), cables and high resolution digital to name but a few.

A while back I asked a question about how many people believe fire
sprinkler systems function and I asked it for a reason. That reason
being that what they believe is wrong. So while repeating a lie may help
to get more and more people to believe it, it never makes that lie into
the truth. Case in point, even though the audio press and many, many
audiophiles believe that a $1000 power cord makes their stereo system
sound better and they keep on repeating it does not make it true and it
never will make it true. And here one for Julf - are the herring in the
Netherlands eaten raw or pickled? Most people believe that the herring
is pickled but it's not, it's raw.

I don't sneer at audiophiles but I never fail to amazed that audiophiles
so willingly choose to disregard the single most important phrase and
warning in all of capitalism: caveat emptor

And finally if this little sub-section on a forum about a discontinued
line of audio products can serve as a place where a few of us can speak
truth to power then so be it. There are plenty of other places on the
big, bad internet where audiophiles can happily engage in discussions
about their beliefs with other like minded individuals.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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ralphpnj
2015-07-15 19:37:25 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> Why is that in every field of science and technology objective research
> is welcomed and given the utmost respect but in audio (by "audio" I am
> referring to the use of technology to reproduce sound and music) the
> objective approach is considered (at least by you) as irrational?

jkeny wrote:
> I'm still trying to organise the test but not on this forum - as this
> section is unmoderated & populated by trolls - an example being the
> immediately posted bullshit from ralphpnj - complete waste of time

> bull·shit
> &#712;bo&#861;ol&#716;SHit/
> vulgar slang
> noun
> noun: bullshit
>
> 1.
> stupid or untrue talk or writing; nonsense.

So exactly what part of my post (quoted above) is bullshit?



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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jkeny
2015-07-15 18:06:59 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> ..... I too am saddened by Jkeny's and Arny's relentless squabbles,
> although I am rooting for JK to come out on top as at least he owns a SB
> and is part of this community - kruger is here to fight only. He's the
> master baiter.You may have noticed in the last week or more that I don't reply to Arny
- he is not worth the bother & it keeps this forum's traffic down. But I
have an even better solution to cutting down the traffic - I'm outta
here. To be quiet honest, apart from the very few odd posters like
yourself this section of the forum is dead - just infested by
objectionists of the worst/irrational kind & it's not worth keeping it
alive for entertainment purposes.

I'll PM Archimago about the Regen test - it makes no sense for this to
be where the details of that test & the results are published as it will
only attract more troll infestation & shit - not worth bothering with or
taking up any time on.


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Julf
2015-07-15 18:15:38 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> I'll PM Archimago about the Regen test - it makes no sense for this to
> be where the details of that test & the results are published as it will
> only attract more troll infestation & shit - not worth bothering with or
> taking up any time on.

Does that mean that you a) are backing out of the test, or b) want to
restrict the distribution of the results?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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jkeny
2015-07-15 19:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> Does that mean that you a) are backing out of the test, or b) want to
> restrict the distribution of the results?
I'm still trying to organise the test but not on this forum - as this
section is unmoderated & populated by trolls - an example being the
immediately posted bullshit from ralphpnj - complete waste of time


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Julf
2015-07-15 19:28:16 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> I'm still trying to organise the test but not on this forum - as this
> section is unmoderated & populated by trolls - an example being the
> immediately posted bullshit from ralphpnj - complete waste of time

So I guess that means " b) want to restrict the distribution of the
results".

I guess your preference would be a certain obscure Irish hifi forum? :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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jkeny
2015-07-15 19:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> So I guess that means " b) want to restrict the distribution of the
> results".
>
> I guess your preference would be a certain obscure Irish hifi forum? :)

Don't be such an idiot - I want to restrict having to deal with the
idiocy that your post is a perfect example of & rife on this forum
section.


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Wombat
2015-07-15 19:36:17 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> Don't be such an idiot - I want to restrict having to deal with the
> idiocy & trolling that your post is a perfect example of & rife on this
> forum section.
Idiot calling count rises to 3 persons.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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jkeny
2015-07-15 19:41:25 UTC
Permalink
I see the race of the trolls has begun - ralphpjn was quick off the
blocks but seems to have faded as the race went on, Julf has put in a
strong performance & shows stamina but Wombat is a late entry & could
yet pass the finish line first. But wait what has happened to the the
champion troll, Arnyk, he seems to have missed this race - did nobody
inform he to enter? I expect we will see a late showing from him.

There's all to play for yet, guys keep it up & try to get your name
engraved on the troll trophy under the previous winners.


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jkeny
2015-07-15 20:24:42 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> I see the race of the trolls has begun - ralphpnj was quick off the
> blocks but seems to have faded as the race went on, Julf has put in a
> strong performance & shows stamina but Wombat is a late entry & could
> yet pass the finish line first. But wait what has happened to the the
> champion troll, Arnyk, he seems to have missed this race - did nobody
> inform him to enter? I expect we will see a late showing from him.
>
> There's all to play for yet, guys keep it up & try to get your name
> engraved on the troll trophy under the previous winners.
>
> Hold on ralphpnj is staging a late comeback - just when we thought he
> had dropped out of the race!

And Julf is still doing well on the troll table - unless Arny turns up
soon, I can see Julf's name being engraved on the Troll Trophy.


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arnyk
2015-07-16 07:49:19 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> And Julf is still doing well on the troll table - unless Arny turns up
> soon, I can see Julf's name being engraved on the Troll Trophy.

It would appear to be the prerequisite radical subjectivist personal
attack.

I can sit here all day, and have sat here all day asking jkeny relevant
logical questions, that if he answered honestly or even just relevantly,
he'd be conceding his irrational position in this discussion.

He's finally wised up enough to realize that, so as part of his habitual
practice of his denial of reality, he refuses to answer the questions
and instead just calls me childish names.

The more things change, the more things they stay the same!

Jkeny lives in a logic-tight box. Just like John Atkinson, Robert
Harley, Michael Lavorgna, you name them.

Next!


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artee
2015-07-16 09:39:00 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> It would appear to be the prerequisite radical subjectivist personal
> attack...
>
> ...Jkeny lives in a logic-tight box...
>
> Next!

Gentlemen,

I have been using this forum for a good few years now.

There are, as you will have noticed, a mix of subjectivists,
objectivists, and in-between.

It’s mostly frequented by people with squeezeboxy devices, but also
others. There is a lot of knowledge and experience, and people are
usually helpful with answering questions and are generally accepting of
other people’s points of view.

However since 25 May when you both locked horns, the SNR has gone South.
I’d just like to “play back” snippets from just some some of your (c.
250 each) posts.

_JKENY_

“As if anybody is in any doubt about your intentions to incite flame
wars - all they have to do is look at this post & your many posts
here.”

“This is a conversation between Archi & me - how about you butt out with
your usual comments which are simply meant to incite flame wars.”

“Jeez, man, did you fail reading comprehension in school or are you just
pretending to be so stupid?”

“Again, you can't but demonstrate your stupidity, Arny, can you?”

“I believe ArnyK is in his 70s - go figure!!”

“Your foolishness is now a tsunami that is in danger of washing all
sensible posts away, Arny”

“Not the fantasy discussion you & Arny are having about 8KHz USB
protocol noise”

“Yep, it's the usual logic from this contingent”

"Yes, Arny, you & Archi can continue with your fantasy discussion"

“I think you might be confused between ‘real’ & ‘bonkers’"

“Don't be such an idiot”

“Give it up, Wombat!!”

“Sure, it's simple, Mnyb :) This is the type of statement that reveals
just how far you guys are from actually understanding measurements -
it's very representative of Archi's fan base”

“No, huh - no suggestions! Can't say that surprises me.”

“I've already explained it many times - you simply don't understand.
And another "objectivsit/measureist" asking how this might be measured -
hilarious!!”

“Absolute bullshit that I already corrected you & Arny before”

“And if you want advice about trolling go to an expert like Arny”

“I somehow thought you were in your 70s from your posts on AVS”

“Yea, there you go, again - an attempt to demean & show delusional
superiority!”

“Arny, I thought you might have left after making this post - (you
should, btw). So let's see if you still assert this stupidity that you
posted”

“Bluff & bluster won't disguise your mistakes.”

“Go off now & regroup you measurbators, take a little pleasure in a
twiddle with your equipment.”

“I don't need to give links - any sane person knows the issue”

“Again, your desire to be always right shows up your foolishness”

“You prove yourself again to be such a fool, Arny”

“Good to see at least one of you is open to new information/data”

“No, you also seem to have great difficulty in understanding the
technology & what it's addressing”

“This is getting more like a Christmas pantomime. Arny, I'm outside with
my handbag, where are you?”

“Wow & this coming from a guy who created a so-called listening test of
high resolution audio”

“Yes you share the same inability to understand the device as ralphpnj -
who is also a poster on the thread for the afflicted & disaffected
""Reformed Audiophile True Confessions" - so you share a lot...”

“Arny, you bring nothing to this thread but noise!”

“I'm pretty sure you are feigning not understanding this as another one
of your forum debate tactics but”

“Yep, it's the usual logic from this contingent - business is involved
so therefore it's a snakeoil business trying to extricate money”

_ARNYK_

“If you might learn anything from the recent (mis) behavior of people
like jkeny or cliveb, I don't have to bother with seeking out and
attacking people”

“Wow! You do play dumb very well Jkeny. Oh, its not an act?”

“It is a paraphrase not a quote. For future reference, if I post a
quote, there are quotation marks. Don't they teach about quotation marks
in Ireland?”

“I guess that the Irish public schools didn't teach you much about
reading and critical thinking, because if they did Jkeny…”

“As usual jkeny is trying to put his dumb words in my mouth”

“If that is him, then his area of greatest interest and expertise seems
to be food trucks in the Pittsburgh area”

“Interesting - jkeny admits it right here in public. All it takes to
start a flame war with jkeny is to ask him for some reliable evidence.”

“No jkeny, no reading problems here. I just know what the numbers mean.
You obviously don't.”

“A true sign that I drew serious blood by bringing up the touchy subject
of actual test results, which is an obvious failing of jkeny's ongoing
trolling.”

“Yes, but based on past experience with you John, you are incapable of
appreciating or benefiting from the explanation. Any reasonable
explanation will be bent, folded, spindled, torn and mutilated.”

“No need to be insulting. Can't we talk?”

“False. False. I've explained the reasons why these claims are false to
you in the past on another forum John, and you were unable to comprehend
the somewhat lengthy explanation.”

“Noise without relevant content seems to describe most of your posts.
Why don't you take your own advice?”

“Just because name or names aren't mentioned doesn't keep a libelous
post from being a personal attack.”

“?????????????????”

“I have to admit that the above looks like good evidence of a lack of
reading comprehension.”

“It would appear that ridicule is all you've got. If you actually had
something useful to say, you'd have said it by now.”

“I have no idea. Given that you seem to be a anti-science golden ear, it
is possible that your audio system is technically speaking, sheerest
junk.”

“I don't know why you'd mention that jkeny, because what is there from
you is a lot of empty talk that was summarized as follows:”

“By now it should be quite clear that you failed. I wonder how long it
will take you to recognize that.”

“Obviously jkeny, you have no clue about the technical means by which
noise measurements are performed and why.”

“(1) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations are not admissible because
they are not tests. That is, they...”

“ (1) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations...”

“(1) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations...”

“(2) Their personal Casual, Sighted Audiophile...”

“That's just a baseless allegation as stated. You discredit yourself
when you spew such poorly formed thoughts. Any ADULT who understood our
situation would say that at worst we disagree. Noting...”

“So jkeny, in your universe, the Laws Of Physics are settled by means of
a popularity contest? Everybody votes that water flows uphill, and it
starts doing so?”

“Interestingly enough, this kind of thinking is nowhere to be found when
the order of the day is jkeny trying to hawk his questionable USB DACs
on the web.”

“Believe based on a star in the sky, or believe based on inside
information?”

“Executive summary - more deflections and pseudo-technical hand
waving”

“Corrected? Based on what, some egregiously flawed pseudo technical
speculations and horribly flawed listening evaluations?”

“Pure deflection. I debunked it so now you want to distance yourself
from it.”

“Typical of self-defeating audiophile prejudices.”

“There is no lie, and the above is a vile but apparently very satisfying
(to you) personal attack”

“I'm trying to buy, borrow, or steal a clue as to why JH901 has any
credentials that put him as far above the rest of us as he seems to
believe that he is”

“Given the outcome of those threads that you started after the long
hiatus Jkeny, I can see why you would now wish to cover your tracks! “

“Just another baseless false claim from Jkeney”

“Just more evidence that if you ask Jkeny his name and you are really
lucky, he might even tell you what it is.”

“Do you know what reliable and scientific means? Do you know why "Blind
test" is a phrase that golden ears commonly use as a deflection? Yes,
the serious failings of the grotesquely flawed...”

“So Jkeny when are you going to admit to the foul sad truth about casual
audiophile listening evaluations - you know the fact that they are so
bad that they can't even be properly called tests”

“Because of our correspondent's lengthy track record for utter denial
and hypocrisy when it comes to his preferred but violently
anti-scientific (on many grounds) format for listening evaluations”

“When your opponent has nothing left to add to the argument but
name-calling, you have won the argument on points in the eyes of
everybody who is thinking rationally. Move on!”

“Oh jkeny, so your next error of the day is to assert that jitter and
long term clock timing errors have nothing to do with the frequency of
the audio signals being transmitted?”

“<snip additional deflections> Again, game, set, match.”

“Deflect, deflect, deflect. So, jkeny who that actually understands DACs
OEMs yours for you?”

“There is this jkeny guy who says: Buy my DACs because they sound better
- "more organic." Organic reminds me of a smelly compost pile, but what
ever.”

“Wow, jkeny has empowered himself to speak for the 100's if not 1000's
of people who post on this forum! Amazing!”

“Commodity hubs habitually blowing USB gear is a false claim. But jkeny,
I'll bet you can bully naive audiophiles with trash talk like that.”

“There is no perhaps here. The remark has been forcibly and violently
misconstrued. The only question in my mind is whether it was
misconstrued as an honest error, or maliciously”

The questions that I would like to ask each of you are:

1. Do you think that those posts add value to the forum?

2. Are you proud of your posts?

Cheers,

Rick


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SBGK
2015-07-16 11:16:32 UTC
Permalink
artee wrote:
> The questions that I would like to ask each of you are:
>
> 1. Do you think that those posts add value to the forum?
>
> 2. Are you proud of your posts?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rick

It's just banter between two esteemed individuals arguing about
something that can never be proved on an online forum.

I know it's car crash stuff, but you do have the option of not reading
the posts.



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
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arnyk
2015-07-16 11:52:07 UTC
Permalink
artee wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> The questions that I would like to ask each of you are:
>
> 1. Do you think that those posts add value to the forum?
>

Get serious! I post all of this prose on public forums because I'm
ashamed of it? LOL! What do you know of value about human nature?
Apparently not much. :-(

Let's put this into perspective. Google searching might show you that
since 1995 I've made over a half-million posts on Usenet and the
Internet, primarily related to Audio, ABX, and DBTs. They are still out
there in the online archives, posted there in front of God and anybody.

>
> 2. Are you proud of your posts?
>

Of course. Some of them are futile (like posting answers to trolls like
this), but some very important people, mostly acting in private of
course, have praised their insights and content. Every time someone
tries to dismiss them with ridicule and force me away by attempts like
this at public humiliation, their true value on the cosmic stage is
validated. You can't deal with the relevance of the facts and logic, so
you spin what you don't understand into something you do understand -
veiled personal attacks.


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ralphpnj
2015-07-16 11:56:41 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> This is one of the big golden ear lies - that all truth is relative and
> nothing can be proven.

I could not agree more.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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SBGK
2015-07-16 12:10:34 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> This is one of the big golden ear lies - that all truth is relative and
> nothing can be proven.

prove it



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arnyk
2015-07-16 12:15:04 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> prove it

You've done it for me many times, just lately with that post of yours
that I replied to.

There's a reason why you don't say much of substance, instead reply with
personal attacks and glib posts like this one - you can't provide a
well-written, well-reasoned counter argument.


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SBGK
2015-07-16 12:26:51 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> You've done it for me many times, just lately with that post of yours
> that I replied to.
>
> That's the clear meaning of the following false claim:
>
> "It's just banter between two esteemed individuals arguing about
> something that can never be proved on an online forum."
>
> The claim that the discussion is "about something that can never be
> proved on an online forum." is just a restatement of the idea that all
> truth is relative and nothing can be proven.
>
> For example there is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence that
> golden ear magical audio claims are based on casual audiophile
> evaluations that are egregiously flawed. Call that proof.
>
> There's a reason why you don't say much of substance, instead reply with
> personal attacks and glib posts like this one - like jkeny you can't
> provide a well-written, well-reasoned counter argument.

Quote Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
This is one of the big golden ear lies - that all truth is relative and
nothing can be proven.

Very good, pity you made up that meaning out of my sentence.

I said "arguing about something that can't be proved on an online
forum".

Hope it's not a sign of dementia. Keep well.



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SBGK
2015-07-16 12:30:25 UTC
Permalink
You guys have lost the plot, why are you attacking someone just because
they have a different viewpoint ?



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arnyk
2015-07-16 12:33:39 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> Quote Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
> This is one of the big golden ear lies - that all truth is relative and
> nothing can be proven.
>
> Very good, pity you made up that meaning out of my sentence.
>
> I said "arguing about something that can't be proved on an online
> forum".
>
> Hope it's not a sign of dementia. Keep well.

I didn't make it up - I discerned it by means of inductive reasoning.

I suspect that you believe the meaning you are now trying to distance
yourself from.

It's just deflction on your part.

Prove me wrong with a reasoned argument instead of slinging around
insults about dementia, if you can.


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arnyk
2015-07-16 12:35:06 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> You guys have lost the plot, why are you attacking someone just because
> they have a different viewpoint ?

Just another restatement of the audiophile idea you're trying to
distance yourself from..

This isn't about merely different viewpoints. It is about truth versus
self-serving fiction.


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Julf
2015-07-16 12:36:42 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> You guys have lost the plot, why are you attacking someone just because
> they have a different viewpoint ?

I think you might want to go back and look at the messages, and see who
it is who attacks people who disagree with them.

Pointing out factually false statements is not the same as attacking
someone.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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arnyk
2015-07-16 13:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> I think you might want to go back and look at the messages, and see who
> it is who attacks people who disagree with them.
>

Given the high percentage of the posts of your correspondent that are
100% personal attacks, I don't expect his recognition of the truth you
state to be easy or quick.

>
> Pointing out factually false statements is not the same as attacking
> someone.

That assumes the knowledge of the difference between truth and
falsehood, which in turn implies acceptance that they even exist.

Subjectivism often takes the form of denial that there are any global
truths at all.

You or I may be surprised that some people believe that gravity is a
matter of opinion, but certainly the curvature of the earth (which is
related to gravity) has been thought of by many in that way.


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Archimago
2015-07-16 15:00:24 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> You guys have lost the plot, why are you attacking someone just because
> they have a different viewpoint ?

Archimago wrote:
> Hmmmm.... Hold your horses there buddy in terms of bringing up the Regen
> -yet again- and your presumptions about the "objectivist response".
>
> 1. Given unclear rationale for the need of this Regen device, scepticism
> is warranted. The manufacturer provides no evidence of efficacy (we can
> wait for jkeny's claim that UpTone is working on this). The theory
> behind its operation appears unlikely to affect audio output. Therefore,
> plenty to be suspicious about - as much as suspicion around the need for
> $1000+ ethernet cables.
>
> 2. I have proposed a way to test objectively and subjectively with
> sighted and unsighted subjects who are "more subjectivist" than myself
> in the other thread regarding this Regen device. I'm waiting for jkeny
> to see if he can arrange this device to send to me for evaluation. He
> knows my address. I believe I've been more open-minded in this response
> than subjectivists who "just believe" with no evidence of questioning
> their own perceptual ability.
>
> Please then, I/we have asked you time and again to explain why you
> believe in what you believe. Whether small buffers are better, or why OS
> makes a difference. -You have not once discussed your method of
> discerning differences- or how you reach the level of certainty in these
> effects you openly speak of and criticize others for not having "faith"
> in.
>
> Do you reach these conclusions with sighted listening? Do you do blinded
> listening? What experiments have you done? Do you measure these changes
> - if so please show us your results.
>
> Do not blame others of closed-mindedness until you speak of your methods
> in ascertaining truth; because obviously your results are -very
> different- from mine. I have laid my case on the blog and anyone is free
> to verify or disprove. Feel free to refute with evidence and I will
> happily listen. Finger pointing and insinuations I'm afraid have little
> chance of convincing anyone, especially around here.

Archimago wrote:
> ...
>
> *-SBGK: Do not disappear here like you have so many times before when
> challenged. If you are willing to accuse me of somehow poisoning the
> thoughts of other; "duping" them as you say. Then stand your ground and
> reason with me. I'm sure there are many subjectivists reading and I'm
> sure they would appreciate hearing what you have to say. You likewise
> have a blog so if it's something that needs room to explain, feel free
> to direct us to your detailed post.-*

SBGK. Let's get back on track if we can. Unless we have a discussion
based on facts and knowing what methods are employed to ascertain
belief, then we end up with an absolutely "fact-free" discussion which
devolves into essentially opinion at best and name-calling at worst.

Please, look at the posts quoted above; the original and follow-up
request.

I spent some time asking you specifically to provide explanations on how
you attain your beliefs. Please discuss!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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jkeny
2015-07-16 13:50:16 UTC
Permalink
artee wrote:
>
> The questions that I would like to ask each of you are:
>
> 1. Do you think that those posts add value to the forum?
>
> 2. Are you proud of your posts?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rick
Rick, you should also have noticed that I have stopped replying to ArnyK
for about a week so this relieves you from seeing any exchange with
ArnyK on my side?


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arnyk
2015-07-16 15:04:38 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> Rick, you should also have noticed that I have stopped replying to ArnyK
> for about a week

Jkeny's abject cowardice and utter denial of reality should be more
conspicuous. I guess he can hide behind the fact that nobody really
cares that much what he does.

Can't blame him for not wanting to be called up short for his
anti-scientific claims and self-serving posturing.


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SBGK
2015-07-16 15:17:45 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> Jkeny's abject cowardice and utter denial of reality should be more
> conspicuous. I guess he can hide behind the fact that nobody really
> cares that much what he does.
>
> Can't blame him for not wanting to be called up short for his
> anti-scientific claims and self-serving posturing.

you obviously do, sweetheart.



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jkeny
2015-07-16 15:20:42 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> you obviously do, sweetheart.
Don't feed the troll, Gordon - that's what I did - he will get fed up
with the lack of attention & go elsewhere for it.


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bonze
2015-07-16 15:33:25 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> Rick, you should also have noticed that I have stopped replying to ArnyK
> for about a week so this relieves you from seeing any exchange with
> ArnyK on my side?

and yet....

jkeny wrote:
> I see the race of the trolls has begun - ralphpnj was quick off the
> blocks but seems to have faded as the race went on, Julf has put in a
> strong performance & shows stamina but Wombat is a late entry & could
> yet pass the finish line first. But wait what has happened to the the
> champion troll, Arnyk, he seems to have missed this race - did nobody
> inform him to enter? I expect we will see a late showing from him

jkeny wrote:
> And Julf is still doing well on the troll table - unless Arny turns up
> soon, I can see Julf's name being engraved on the Troll Trophy.

jkeny wrote:
> Don't feed the troll, Gordon - that's what I did - he will get fed up
> with the lack of attention & go elsewhere for it.



LMS Version: 7.9
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2x Touch, 3x SB3
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jkeny
2015-07-16 15:36:35 UTC
Permalink
bonze wrote:
> and yet....
Ah, it's cute that you pay so much attention to me - I'm flattered


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Julf
2015-07-16 15:55:26 UTC
Permalink
18385


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: Fonzie_jumps_the_shark.PNG |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18385|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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bonze
2015-07-16 16:36:33 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> Ah, it's cute that you pay so much attention to me - I'm flatteredWell you're always so amusing, especially when you whine and get your
little panties bunched.
I found yesterdays flounce particularly hilarious.
Do keep it up!



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arnyk
2015-07-16 16:35:28 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> Don't feed the troll, Gordon - that's what I did - he will get fed up
> with the lack of attention & go elsewhere for it.

Yum! Yum!

It's clear I'm keeping you up nights, darlin'


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Archimago
2015-07-16 15:55:22 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> you obviously do, sweetheart.

SBGK: Why do you continue to ignore my questions?

If I may remind you of your comments:
SBGK wrote:
> some misguided people have been duped into using the squeezebox as a
> front end to multi thousand $ systems because they've been told bits are
> bits and abx is
> incapable of discerning a difference and Archimago says they all
> sound/measure the same.
>
> So these people have pretensions of being an audiophile and think they
> are getting it from a $300 device.
>
> It's also fun just to see how stuck in the mud you guys are as the rest
> of the digital audio world moves forward and makes discoveries/find
> solutions.
>
> The objectivists' response to the regen is just bizarre.

Look. Let's raise above the level of grade 3 kids...

Please explain yourself. By what mechanism of ascertaining truth are you
arriving at your general viewpoint on this debate and claiming in such
inflammatory ways that my posts have lead to "misguided people" being
"duped"? In what way is this "bizarre"? You are free to cheerlead on
places like CA, but when you address with comments knowing that I'm here
reading, then I think it is fair for me to demand some kind of
explanation.

To not provide explanation implies that you have -nothing- of value to
add to the discussion in a gentlemanly fashion. -And I do hope you will
refrain from making such remarks in the future.-



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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Julf
2015-07-16 15:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Archimago wrote:
> SBGK: Why do you continue to ignore my questions?

I guess for the same reason he carefully avoids answering my questions
as well...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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arnyk
2015-07-16 16:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> I guess for the same reason he carefully avoids answering my questions
> as well...

Right, jkeny only answers questions that feed his ego and agenda. and
that don't expose his ignorance.


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Gandhi
2015-07-18 10:22:04 UTC
Permalink
On topic.

"Snoilers"?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snoiled



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
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Julf
2015-07-16 08:35:22 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> And Julf is still doing well on the troll table - unless Arny turns up
> soon, I can see Julf's name being engraved on the Troll Trophy.

And I guess the voting/tabulating is actually for real on a certain
Irish forum... :)

I hope you, sbgk and a couple of others realize it is readable and
searchable by anybody, not just the members...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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bonze
2015-07-16 12:14:30 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> And I guess the voting/tabulating is actually for real on a certain
> Irish forum... :)
That is seriously embarrassing :)

Julf wrote:
> I hope you, sbgk and a couple of others realize it is readable and
> searchable by anybody, not just the members...
But he always acts on his own? :rolleyes:



LMS Version: 7.9
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Wombat
2015-07-15 19:48:23 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> I'm still trying to organise the test but not on this forum - as this
> section is unmoderated & populated by trolls - an example being the
> immediately posted bullshit from ralphpnj - complete waste of time
I don't get it. The test was never meant to be done on this forum.
Archimago is waiting for shipping and will do a blog entry at his blog.
Every forum can make a thread about it linking to his blog.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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ralphpnj
2015-07-15 20:12:14 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> A point - I like nice, thick, well-made cables, ones that cost a lot of
> money (which I can afford). I liken it to putting proper P0 tires on my
> Maserati. Would General tires from Green and Ross do just as well for
> way less money? Probably. Would I notice a difference? Probably not.
> But I'm not gonna do it. I would KNOW they're sub-par for the car.
> Same with my stereo. I won't put zip cord between my tube mono amp and
> my $30k speakers. Does the cable I have in there now sound better than
> zip cord? Seems to me like it does. Could I pick it out in an ABX
> test? No goddamn way - I'm not stupid. But still, I think it sounds
> best with these here high-end cables, so I'm going to leave them in. It
> works for me.
> Jason

I don't believe that is an appropriate analogy since there may, in fact,
be very differences between the two brands of tires. And besides no one
here is claiming that zip cord makes a good speaker cable. What many of
us believe and what science backs up is that the differences between to
well made speaker cables are not audible. Perhaps a more appropriate
analogy might be that one goes out an buys a super expensive gold plated
bathroom faucet and then tells the plumber to replace all the piping
supplying the faucet with larger, gold plated piping since the expensive
gold plated faucet will work better with expensive large gold plated
supply piping.

doctor_big wrote:
> Yes, yes, yes. I understand scientific method. But you (again, your
> group) are agenda driven. I've seen the "tests" you perform where you
> set up two utterly different systems - one lo-fi, one upper-mid-fi, and
> abx them behind a screen. You trot out a bunch of audiophiles who are
> utterly wamboozled and unable to differentiate which one is X.
>
> I've taken these tests and know how incredibly difficult they are, even
> when there's an easily-verifiable difference waiting to be noticed. If
> you're not practiced at it -- really well practiced -- you're gonna flub
> the test.
>
> So, I am quite convinced by my own experience that ABX is not a valid
> test for subtle differences in audio. JH901 or whatever his name is, is
> trying to set up an ABX test using cables. Without even knowing the
> scenario in detail, I do know that if he sets the test up correctly he's
> going to fail miserably. Does that mean there's no difference? I
> really don't know. I hear differences in cables, but I can't say for
> sure whether it's expectation bias or a real difference that flies under
> the ABX radar. I suspect the latter, but have no way of proving it.
> I'm not about to spend my time and money trying to figure out how better
> to run or create a test, but my suspicions are, I feel, the basis for
> audiophile's rejection of ABX. It seems wrong, and nobody's trying to
> figure out anything better. There's no money in it, so nobody's putting
> effort into it.
>
> As I stated up front, I feel that you're 100% agenda driven, so I don't
> expect you to find any merit in what I'm saying, but I had to try. I'm
> gone now, until my blood pressure boils up again in a month or so.
>
> Jason
>
> Edit: last word - I promise (myself). Just because you have a
> background in science doesn't mean you aren't agenda driven or biased.
> Wakefield was a scientist, right? Remember him? The autism/MMR guy? A
> background in science doesn't grant you a free pass.

I do believe that you are onto something there but outside of carefully
controlled double blind listening tests there really isn't much else to
go on other than anecdotal evidence. And I agree that ABX tests can
often be misleading since not all possibilities can be accounted for, in
other words, a passage of music that might reveal a real difference may
not be used during the test. Kind of like how test driving a car on a
bright sunny day tells you nothing about how the car behaves on a rainy
night.

Oh no I may have incurred the wrath of Arnyk so Arny if you disagree
with what I've said please tell me how one can conduct an ABX which
accounts for these possibilities.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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ralphpnj
2015-07-15 18:21:18 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> You may have noticed in the last week or more that I don't reply to Arny
> - he is not worth the bother & it keeps this forum's traffic down. But I
> have an even better solution to cutting down the traffic - I'm outta
> here. To be quiet honest, apart from the very few odd posters like
> yourself this section of the forum is dead - just infested by
> objectionists of the worst/irrational kind & it's not worth keeping it
> alive for entertainment purposes.
>
> I'll PM Archimago about the Regen test - it makes no sense for this to
> be where the details of that test & the results are published as it will
> only attract more troll infestation & shit - not worth bothering with or
> taking up any time on.

Why is that in every field of science and technology objective research
is welcomed and given the utmost respect but in audio (by "audio" I am
referring to the use of technology to reproduce sound and music) the
objective approach is considered (at least by you) as irrational?



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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doctor_big
2015-07-15 18:48:44 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> Why is that in every field of science and technology objective research
> is welcomed and given the utmost respect but in audio (by "audio" I am
> referring to the use of technology to reproduce sound and music) the
> objective approach is considered (at least by you) as irrational?

For crying out loud, why is YOUR so-called objective approach the right
one? who made you the arbiter of science?

Jason


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Julf
2015-07-15 18:51:44 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> For crying out loud, why is YOUR so-called objective approach the right
> one? who made you the arbiter of science?

Nobody. Feel free to refute any of his claims based on factual evidence.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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jkeny
2015-07-15 19:13:14 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> Why is that in every field of science and technology objective research
> is welcomed and given the utmost respect but in audio (by "audio" I am
> referring to the use of technology to reproduce sound and music) the
> objective approach is considered (at least by you) as irrational?
And you ask why doctor-big "singled you out"?? Get a mirror, troll!!


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Julf
2015-07-15 20:20:01 UTC
Permalink
jkeny wrote:
> I'm outta here.

I guess that proved to be as true as all your other claims. And not for
the first time...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Julf
2015-07-15 18:20:23 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> To follow up with your analogy regarding food. Say you spend $500 on a
> hand-made, forged Japanese chef's knife. You buy high-end waterstones
> to polish and refine the edge, which you get down to one molecule and it
> glows blue when Orcs are around. You make a meal with this knife, and
> -- as you said -- your pride in what you did makes it taste better.
> Wouldn't it suck to post this pride in your work on a forum and have a
> bunch of cheerless wankers jump all over you saying you wasted your
> money and that a $50 Wusthorf is as good?

I don't think we have an issue with that - what we have an issue with is
someone who sells knives and his friend who has come up with a badly
working sharpening stone walking into a cooking forum claiming cutlery
makes a major difference to the taste of food, and how the usual way of
tasting food must be flawed because it doesn't show the difference.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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doctor_big
2015-07-15 18:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> I don't think we have an issue with that - what we have an issue with is
> someone who sells knives and his friend who has come up with a badly
> working sharpening stone walking into a cooking forum claiming cutlery
> makes a major difference to the taste of food, and how the usual way of
> tasting food must be flawed because it doesn't show the difference.

There's truth to this, and I don't have a problem with calling out a
manufacturer who sells snake oil - high-end Ethernet cables for instance
- but the issue I have is with you and your gang's ridicule of and
dog-piling on audiophiles. In the AUDIOPHILE forum for chrissakes!

A point - I like nice, thick, well-made cables, ones that cost a lot of
money (which I can afford). I liken it to putting proper P0 tires on my
Maserati. Would General tires from Green and Ross do just as well for
way less money? Probably. Would I notice a difference? Probably not.
But I'm not gonna do it. I would KNOW they're sub-par for the car.
Same with my stereo. I won't put zip cord between my tube mono amp and
my $30k speakers. Does the cable I have in there now sound better than
zip cord? Seems to me like it does. Could I pick it out in an ABX
test? No goddamn way - I'm not stupid. But still, I think it sounds
best with these here high-end cables, so I'm going to leave them in. It
works for me.

AND WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME I'M WRONG? What gives you the right?

Now, if I were to post in the General forum about how my thick,
penis-enlarging cables sound better than zip cord - have at it. Crucify
me. I'd deserve it. But if I want to talk about getting rid of
upper-midrange glare by changing cables down here in the audiophile
basement, why should I have to deal with a gang of petty goons calling
me an idiot?

Jason


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Julf
2015-07-15 19:33:47 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> A point - I like nice, thick, well-made cables, ones that cost a lot of
> money (which I can afford). I liken it to putting proper P0 tires on my
> Maserati. Would General tires from Green and Ross do just as well for
> way less money? Probably. Would I notice a difference? Probably not.
> But I'm not gonna do it. I would KNOW they're sub-par for the car.
> Same with my stereo. I won't put zip cord between my tube mono amp and
> my $30k speakers. Does the cable I have in there now sound better than
> zip cord? Seems to me like it does. Could I pick it out in an ABX
> test? No goddamn way - I'm not stupid. But still, I think it sounds
> best with these here high-end cables, so I'm going to leave them in. It
> works for me.

Right. So you acknowledge you are making an emotional, non-rational
choice. We all do that. Do I own the most sensible car for me? Hell, no.
Do I argue it is? No.

> Now, if I were to post in the General forum about how my thick,
> penis-enlarging cables sound better than zip cord - have at it. Crucify
> me. I'd deserve it. But if I want to talk about getting rid of
> upper-midrange glare by changing cables down here in the audiophile
> basement, why should I have to deal with a gang of petty goons calling
> me an idiot?

In both forums, it would be totally OK to state "I know there is no
rational reason to prefer a thick cable, but I feel better with a cable
as thick as a python that just ate an aardvark". Should the audiophile
forum be labelled "no rules of physics or rational thinking apply"?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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darrenyeats
2015-07-15 20:26:57 UTC
Permalink
philippe_44 wrote:
> I even admit that I'm jumping a bit when I see discussions like "a file
> transmitted by email sounded more echo-ish" ... well no, this is the
> same file and I can explain and demonstrate the theory of code
> correction.
>
Are you referring to my post here
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103842-Is-anybody-sick-of-the-recent-spate-of-threads&p=823638&viewfull=1#post823638?
If so, I suggest you re-read it since it seems you have understood
something different to what I think I wrote.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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philippe_44
2015-07-16 04:47:30 UTC
Permalink
darrenyeats wrote:
> Are you referring to my post here
> http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103842-Is-anybody-sick-of-the-recent-spate-of-threads&p=823638&viewfull=1#post823638?
> If so, I think what I wrote is very different to how you've understood
> it.

You're right and I apologize - I was just trying to remember from memory
some of the things that made me jump and this came back to me (I did not
quote or named you though, so there was no personal attack). But things
like that
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hificritic/vol5_no3/listening_to_storage.htm
melted my brain, to be honest. Again, it is totally okay to say that
NAS1 integrates much nicer than NAS2 into an elegant audio setup, or
that it has a much better user interface, but the 2 poor flac files are
the same when buffered into the network audio streamer



LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne
(sort of)
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SBGK
2015-07-15 07:28:02 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> Pray tell - what would any self respecting audiophile be doing on the
> Slimdevices forum?
>
> So again I ask: what would any self respecting audiophile be doing on
> the Slimdevices forum?
>

some misguided people have been duped into using the squeezebox as a
front end to multi thousand $ systems because they've been told bits are
bits and abx is
incapable of discerning a difference and Archimago says they all
sound/measure the same.

So these people have pretensions of being an audiophile and think they
are getting it from a $300 device.

It's also fun just to see how stuck in the mud you guys are as the rest
of the digital audio world moves forward and makes discoveries/find
solutions.

The objectivists' response to the regen is just bizarre.



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
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arnyk
2015-07-15 07:52:11 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> some misguided people have been duped into using the squeezebox as a
> front end to multi thousand $ systems because they've been told bits are
> bits and abx is
> incapable of discerning a difference and Archimago says they all
> sound/measure the same.
>
> So these people have pretensions of being an audiophile and think they
> are getting it from a $300 device.
>
> It's also fun just to see how stuck in the mud you guys are as the rest
> of the digital audio world moves forward and makes discoveries/find
> solutions.
>
> The objectivists' response to the regen is just bizarre.

That's all just superstitious spew without reliable substantiation. Got
any?

If you ever rely on the speedometer on your car, you're an objectivist.
;-)


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Julf
2015-07-15 08:35:24 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> So these people have pretensions of being an audiophile and think they
> are getting it from a $300 device.

And then there are those of us who just enjoy great sound without
pretentious audiophile snake oil. I guess that makes us second class
citizens.

> It's also fun just to see how stuck in the mud you guys are as the rest
> of the digital audio world moves forward and makes discoveries/find
> solutions.

Right. It's also fun just to see how stuck in the mud modern medical
doctors are as homeopathy moves forward and makes discoveries/find cures
for all sort of serious ailments such as cancer.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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arnyk
2015-07-15 09:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> And then there are those of us who just enjoy great sound without
> pretentious audiophile snake oil. I guess that makes us second class
> citizens.
>

The phrase that comes to mind is: Music Lover.


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bonze
2015-07-15 08:48:27 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> some misguided people have been duped into using the squeezebox as a
> front end to multi thousand $ systems because they've been told bits are
> bits and abx is
> incapable of discerning a difference and Archimago says they all
> sound/measure the same.
>
> So these people have pretensions of being an audiophile and think they
> are getting it from a $300 device.So you don't think anyone should have a Touch in their system?
Well done, you've just proved his point.



LMS Version: 7.9
TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3 - WHS 2011
2x Touch, 3x SB3
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SBGK
2015-07-15 10:00:52 UTC
Permalink
bonze wrote:
> So you don't think anyone should have a Touch in their system?
> Well done, you've just proved his point.

The empty vessel makes the most noise.



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
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arnyk
2015-07-15 10:03:58 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> The empty vessel makes the most noise.

Noise without relevant content seems to describe most of your posts. Why
don't you take your own advice?


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bonze
2015-07-15 12:49:07 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> The empty vessel makes the most noise.

To your "golden ears" maybe.



LMS Version: 7.9
TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3 - WHS 2011
2x Touch, 3x SB3
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Julf
2015-07-15 09:55:54 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> some misguided people have been duped into using the squeezebox

So you aren't using a squeezebox?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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SBGK
2015-07-15 10:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> So you aren't using a squeezebox?

See, you've quoted it out of context, well done. Which no tactic is that
from the troll manual ?



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
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arnyk
2015-07-15 10:10:52 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> See, you've quoted it out of context, well done. Which no tactic is that
> from the troll manual ?

That's called a deflection.

You've already ripped a few people new terminations for their digestive
systems for not having a SB, and now you've done a similar job on
everybody else who does.

You may fool a few people with posts that try to have it both ways, but
at least a few of us have memories... ;-)

BTW the reason why I don't have a SB is because I have a cable box
(Arris DVR) that does the same thing and more, and on top of it I have
an AVR that does some of the same things, and a BD player that also does
similar things.

I checked the TOS for this forum and there is no formal requirement to
own a SB. It's clear that I do have an interest and involvement in the
topic.

Interestingly enough, that may not be clear from your posts that run
heavy into personal attacks and whining.


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Julf
2015-07-15 10:19:38 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> See, you've quoted it out of context, well done. Which no tactic is that
> from the troll manual ?

OK, I'll ask a direct question. Are you currently using a squeezebox,
and if so, for what, and so you feel that the sound quality of the
squeezebox is inadequate?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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ralphpnj
2015-07-15 13:32:47 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> OK, I'll ask a direct question. Are you currently using a squeezebox,
> and if so, for what, and so you feel that the sound quality of the
> squeezebox is inadequate?

If you read my posts, aka rants, you may have noticed that I usually
make reference to the fact that in the present day high end audio world
Squeezebox devices, whether they be SB3, Touch, Duet or Transporter,
have been relegated to background listening duties. What would be
interesting would be go over the history of the high end audio world's
"treatment" of the many Squeezebox devices from the initial glowing
reviews to the present day disinterest and dismissal in the devices.

One big factor in this "evolution" that has not been touched upon is
that the driving engine of high end audio is the sale of equipment and
in order to do that the manufacturers need to project onto the buying
public the idea that today's audio equipment is much, much better than
yesterday's audio equipment. The high end audio press gladly plays along
with this game and month after provides the "proof" that new equipment
is the "ultimate" and offers "night and day" differences from
yesterday's "ultimate" equipment.

The Squeezebox Touch and Transporter are both capable of delivering a
bit perfect digital stream via coax to any outboard DAC and perfect is
as perfect does - i.e. there is no room for improvement over perfect.
Therefore if the Touch was to be declared to be equal to any other
method of delivering a bit perfect digital stream via coax to any
outboard DAC then that would effectively shut the door on that end of
the audio chain, which in turn would go against the need to sell new and
improved methods of delivering a bit perfect digital stream via coax to
any outboard DAC which in turn does not make for a successful business
model.

The way I see it is that the high end audio world is fighting an uphill
battle and losing. Today's young people have grown up surrounded by all
things digital and their belief systems have not been unduly influenced
by the old analog beliefs. They know from first hand experience that
digital cables really don't matter all that much, that files can be
copied and copied and copied with no loss in quality and most
importantly that digital just works. Add to this the fact when one is
busy paying off a $$$$$$ student loan (which often rivals a home
mortgage) one has little money left over for a $20,000 DAC, a $15,000
preamp, a $25,000 power amp, a $100,000 pair of speaker and thousands of
dollars worth of cable and wire. A smartphone and a Bluetooth speaker is
fast becoming the audio system of preference to the younger generation.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Julf
2015-07-15 13:35:24 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> The way I see it is that the high end audio world is fighting an uphill
> battle and losing. Today's young people have grown up surrounded by all
> things digital and their belief systems have not been unduly influenced
> by the old analog beliefs. They know from first hand experience that
> digital cables really don't matter all that much, that files can be
> copied and copied and copied with no loss in quality and most
> importantly that digital just works.

Absolutely.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Julf
2015-07-15 13:46:32 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> One big factor in this "evolution" that has not been touched upon is
> that the driving engine of high end audio is the sale of equipment and
> in order to do that the manufacturers need to project onto the buying
> public the idea that today's audio equipment is much, much better than
> yesterday's audio equipment. The high end audio press gladly plays along
> with this game and month after provides the "proof" that new equipment
> is the "ultimate" and offers "night and day" differences from
> yesterday's "ultimate" equipment.

Paralleled by (parts of) the music industry wanting to resell us our
music collection in surround sound, no, wait, SACD, nonono DSD, no,
really, hi-res...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Mnyb
2015-07-15 14:55:26 UTC
Permalink
I loved a brands such as QUAD before they where taken by Chinese
investors Peter Walker must be twitching in his grave , the fools
resurrected the QUAD 2 amp ?
They could go on producing the same model of amp for a decade or so and
then really just evolve the design when there’s been some tech
breakthrough like better transistors or something .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Julf
2015-07-15 15:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb wrote:
> I loved a brands such as QUAD before they where taken by Chinese
> investors Peter Walker must be twitching in his grave , the fools
> resurrected the QUAD 2 amp ?
> They could go on producing the same model of amp for a decade or so and
> then really just evolve the design when there’s been some tech
> breakthrough like better transistors or something .

They also developed some genuinely new technology, instead of just
engaging in "design".



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Archimago
2015-07-15 16:06:32 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> some misguided people have been duped into using the squeezebox as a
> front end to multi thousand $ systems because they've been told bits are
> bits and abx is
> incapable of discerning a difference and Archimago says they all
> sound/measure the same.
>
> So these people have pretensions of being an audiophile and think they
> are getting it from a $300 device.
>
> It's also fun just to see how stuck in the mud you guys are as the rest
> of the digital audio world moves forward and makes discoveries/find
> solutions.
>
> The objectivists' response to the regen is just bizarre.

Hmmmm.... Hold your horses there buddy in terms of bringing up the Regen
-yet again- and your presumptions about the "objectivist response".

1. Given unclear rationale for the need of this Regen device, scepticism
is warranted. The manufacturer provides no evidence of efficacy (we can
wait for jkeny's claim that UpTone is working on this). The theory
behind its operation appears unlikely to affect audio output. Therefore,
plenty to be suspicious about - as much as suspicion around the need for
$1000+ ethernet cables.

2. I have proposed a way to test objectively and subjectively with
sighted and unsighted subjects who are "more subjectivist" than myself
in the other thread regarding this Regen device. I'm waiting for jkeny
to see if he can arrange this device to send to me for evaluation. He
knows my address. I believe I've been open-minded in this response than
subjectivists who "just believe" with no evidence of questioning their
own perceptual ability.

Please then, I/we have asked you time and again to explain why you
believe in what you believe. Whether small buffers are better, or why OS
makes a difference. -You have not once discussed your method of
discerning differences- or how you reach the level of certainty in these
effects you openly speak of and criticize others for not having "faith"
in.

Do you reach these conclusions with sighted listening? Do you do blinded
listening? What experiments have you done? Do you measure these changes
- if so please show us your results.

Do not blame others of closed-mindedness until you speak of your methods
in ascertaining truth; because obviously your results are -very
different- from mine. I have laid my case on the blog and anyone is free
to verify or disprove. Feel free to refute with evidence and I will
happily listen. Finger pointing and insinuations I'm afraid has little
chance of convincing anyone, especially around here.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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Julf
2015-07-15 16:18:30 UTC
Permalink
Archimago wrote:
> Finger pointing and insinuations I'm afraid have little chance of
> convincing anyone, especially around here.

Careful! Before you know it, SBGK will threaten not to post anything
more unless the sceptics are removed from the forum. No, wait...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Archimago
2015-07-15 16:25:43 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> Careful! Before you know it, SBGK will threaten not to post anything
> more unless the sceptics are removed from the forum. No, wait...

Yes good point.

*-SBGK: No not disappear here like you have so many times before when
challenged. If you are willing to accuse me of somehow poisoning the
thoughts of other; "duping" them as you say. Then stand your ground and
reason with me. I'm sure there are many subjectivists reading and I'm
sure they would appreciate hearing what you have to say.-*



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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ralphpnj
2015-07-15 17:10:11 UTC
Permalink
Archimago wrote:
> Yes good point.
>
> *-SBGK: Do not disappear here like you have so many times before when
> challenged. If you are willing to accuse me of somehow poisoning the
> thoughts of other; "duping" them as you say. Then stand your ground and
> reason with me. I'm sure there are many subjectivists reading and I'm
> sure they would appreciate hearing what you have to say. You likewise
> have a blog so if it's something that needs room to explain, feel free
> to direct us to your detailed post.-*

Very nice response and one I would never have written. My preferred
method being a heavy dose of sarcasm.

That being said I do understand to some degree why so many audiophiles
have such a strong beliefs - their beliefs are reinforced by the high
end audio world - a very well coordinated system of manufacturers,
marketing and advertising departments, publications, web sites and
"experts". Add to this the fact that for the most part high end audio
products often sound much better than mass market audio products. Also
in the mix is the fact that most high end audio systems feature both the
good and bad parts of the audiophile belief system. What I mean is that
a typical audiophile system might contain a very well made DAC, a very
good pre-amp, a great power amp along with first rate pair of properly
positioned speakers all connected with audiophile cables and wires and
supplied via some fancy audiophile power conditioner, all set up with
great care. What is rarely seen is the same basic system without the
audiophile trappings. What many audiophiles fail to do is take the time
to understand what is good and what is bad, like taking away the power
conditioner and the fancy wires and cables and seeing if the system
sounds worse. But that will never happen since all the audiophile
"experts" state loud and clear that is just not permitted.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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doctor_big
2015-07-15 02:07:16 UTC
Permalink
I've got nothing to say to you, troll. You don't own a Squeezebox and
have nothing constructive to add here. You're the first member of my
ignore list.

Jason




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arnyk
2015-07-15 08:32:33 UTC
Permalink
doctor_big wrote:
> I've got nothing to say to you, troll. You don't own a Squeezebox and
> have nothing constructive to add here. You're the first member of my
> ignore list.
>
> Jason

Ah, the Ostrich defense.

18377

I win!


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arnyk
2015-07-15 08:29:32 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
>
>
> The best terms I can think of are "astrotroll" for those with a
> commercial agenda, and "cosmotroll" for those with a purely ideological,
> non-commercial agenda, but I would love to hear suggestions for terms
> better describing these behaviours.

I think placebophile works.


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