Discussion:
Shilling for Dollars
ralphpnj
2013-08-10 15:00:49 UTC
Permalink
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/2013-tas-editors-choice-awards-digital-interconnects/?utm_campaign=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=email-147

Bring your shovel and get ready for a good laugh.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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garym
2013-08-10 15:31:55 UTC
Permalink
A good Saturday morning laugh. At least it seems that the majority of
the reader comments on the website are appropriately questioning how
(non-broken) USB cables could possibly have the impact noted by the
reviews. That's a good sign.



*Location 1:* VortexBox Appliance 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Transporter,
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*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > SqueezePlay
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S (iPeng), iPad2 (iPengHD & SqueezePad),
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andy_c
2013-08-14 21:07:56 UTC
Permalink
In other news, Peter Belt's P.W.B. Electronics "Cream Electret" (WTF?)
made the
'_Stereophile_Recommended_Components_List_in_the_miscellaneous_category_'
(http://www.stereophile.com/content/2013-recommended-components-miscellaneous).


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ralphpnj
2013-08-14 21:18:11 UTC
Permalink
andy_c wrote:
> In other news, Peter Belt's P.W.B. Electronics "Cream Electret" (WTF?)
> made the
> '_Stereophile_Recommended_Components_List_in_the_miscellaneous_category_'
> (http://www.stereophile.com/content/2013-recommended-components-miscellaneous).

Once one is wrapped in the cloak of subjectivity (made by the same
tailor who made the emperor's new clothes) there is no limit as to the
nonsense who can publish and the profits to be made. The audio rags
praise and recommend this worthless junk. Then the worthless junk is
sold with a huge profit margin which then gives the manufacturers plenty
of money to spend on advertising in the audio rags. As they say, one
hand washes the other (all while another hand is in your pocket).



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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andy_c
2013-08-14 22:04:31 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> Once one is wrapped in the cloak of subjectivity (made by the same
> tailor who made the emperor's new clothes) there is no limit as to the
> nonsense who can publish and the profits to be made. The audio rags
> praise and recommend this worthless junk. Then the worthless junk is
> sold with a huge profit margin which then gives the manufacturers plenty
> of money to spend on advertising in the audio rags. As they say, one
> hand washes the other (all while another hand is in your pocket).

At some level, I find the situation comical. OTOH, when you have this
kind of stuff recommended, and the person who "reviewed" it also writes
columns saying, "It's time to call bulls**t on...", the hypocrisy
demonstrated by that is not funny at all. They have the choice to
simply remain mum on such issues and products, but they seem to
proactively advocate for obvious frauds like LP demagnetizers and such.
BTW, how does one "review" an audio product that's just some cream in a
jar? Maybe check to see if it causes chafing when rapidly rubbed onto
certain sensitive areas? :-)


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ralphpnj
2013-08-14 22:23:38 UTC
Permalink
andy_c wrote:
> At some level, I find the situation comical. OTOH, when you have this
> kind of stuff recommended, and the person who "reviewed" it also writes
> columns saying, "It's time to call bulls**t on...", the hypocrisy
> demonstrated by that is not funny at all. They have the choice to
> simply remain mum on such issues and products, but they seem to
> proactively advocate for obvious frauds like LP demagnetizers and such.
> BTW, how does one "review" an audio product that's just some cream in a
> jar? Maybe check to see if it causes chafing when rapidly rubbed onto
> certain sensitive areas? :-)

The silver lining in this cloud is that with the advent of digital and
computer based audio many audiophiles (like me!) are beginning to
understand just how blatantly dishonest the high end audio press really
is and that they are only there to serve their advertisers and NOT their
readers. These clowns use their subjectivity as a means of cloaking
their nonsense since once subjectivity, rather than objectivity, is used
it is quite easy to invoke the old golden ears BS and say things like
"if you can't hear a difference it's because ______" (insert any garbage
you like).

Their nonsense never ceases to amaze me. For example instead of even the
simplest of sighted A-B testing we get crap like listening to an updated
piece of equipment and comparing to their 5 year old memory of the
original equipment. I guess this is technique should be called
subjectivity squared!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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garym
2013-08-14 22:28:09 UTC
Permalink
Oh my! this entire page of misc components (posted above) is just
unbelievable. If one was trying to create a humor page (ala "The Onion")
regarding fake, stupid audiophool stuff, they couldn't do better than
this page and the writeup of each item.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/2013-recommended-components-miscellaneous



*Location 1:* VortexBox Appliance 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Transporter,
Touch, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > SqueezePlay
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S (iPeng), iPad2 (iPengHD & SqueezePad),
CONTROLLER, or SqueezePlay 7.7 on Win7(64) laptop
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ralphpnj
2013-08-14 22:37:13 UTC
Permalink
garym wrote:
> Oh my! this entire page of misc components (posted above) is just
> unbelievable. If one was trying to create a humor page (ala "The Onion")
> regarding fake, stupid audiophool stuff, they couldn't do better than
> this page and the writeup of each item.
>
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/2013-recommended-components-miscellaneous

Nah, the Onion would never do something like that since it's just too
easy a target and, unlike Stereophile, the Onion does have a sense of
self worth. Besides as you stated exactly how would the Onion go about
writing a send up since the original material is its own parody!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Mnyb
2013-08-14 22:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Some of the acoustic materials seems leggit but ..... the the Qx4
"scalar field generator" :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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garym
2013-08-14 22:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Stein Music Magic Discs: $50/each
Stein Music Magic Diamond: $185/each
Stein Music Harmonizers: $3999/4-Harmonizer pack; $2099/2-Harmonizer
Package

Advice by Hoger Stein "For optimal performance, keep the windows closed,
advised ST." -*PRICELESS*-



*Location 1:* VortexBox Appliance 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Transporter,
Touch, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > SqueezePlay
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S (iPeng), iPad2 (iPengHD & SqueezePad),
CONTROLLER, or SqueezePlay 7.7 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Spotify
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ralphpnj
2013-08-14 23:17:51 UTC
Permalink
garym wrote:
> Stein Music Magic Discs: $50/each
> Stein Music Magic Diamond: $185/each
> Stein Music Harmonizers: $3999/4-Harmonizer pack; $2099/2-Harmonizer
> Package
>
> Advice by Hoger Stein "For optimal performance, keep the windows closed,
> advised ST." -*PRICELESS*-

Windows closed but definitely keep your wallet wide open!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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pablolie
2013-09-02 00:13:17 UTC
Permalink
i like well-crafted cables between my components. not because they
enhance sound (if cables change the sound there is a bigger issue at
hand), but because that eliminates unnecessary connectivity issues and
looks better. but yes, it gets utterly ridiculous, but hey. i let people
live out their idiosyncrasies. :D



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.2 on VMware
Player
Sources: SB3 (3), SB Boom (3), Touch (1), Duet (1), Radio (1), Accuphase
DP65v CD (used as DAC for SB3 mostly)
Amplifiers: Accuphase E306v - Creek OBH21/22
Loudspeakers: Ceeroy 3-way tower (tuned) - Audioengine 5/S8 - Acoustic
Energy Aego M
Headphones: Grado SR-1
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ralphpnj
2013-09-02 12:34:53 UTC
Permalink
pablolie wrote:
> i like well-crafted cables between my components. not because they
> enhance sound (if cables change the sound there is a bigger issue at
> hand), but because that eliminates unnecessary connectivity issues and
> looks better. but yes, it gets utterly ridiculous, but hey. i let people
> live out their idiosyncrasies. i think i have a $500 cable somewhere in
> my main system, but it looked really pretty. never bothered to check if
> it changed sound (which in my opinion would not be a good thing) :D

There's a big difference between letting "people live out their
idiosyncrasies" and a reviewer stating an outright lie (saying that two
properly functioning USB cables sound different is a lie). I don't care
that people are willing to spend lots of money trying to improve the
sound of their audio system but I do care when that desire or
idiosyncrasy is exploited for profit.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Jeff52
2013-09-03 12:02:20 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> There's a big difference between letting "people live out their
> idiosyncrasies" and a reviewer stating an outright lie (saying that two
> properly functioning USB cables sound different is a lie). I don't care
> that people are willing to spend lots of money trying to improve the
> sound of their audio system but I do care when that desire or
> idiosyncrasy is exploited for profit.

But, but, the great Steve Hoffman says cables do make a difference:

-Of course they make a difference. It's up to YOU to carefully (and I do
mean CAREFULLY) determine if the difference is good for your system or
not. Don't be fooled or swayed by a sudden top end burst of "detail".
Make sure the midrange doesn't suffer and the bass doesn't get too
leaned out or whatever.

First set of expensive cables I ever borrowed I was so excited to try
them but they made my system sound like instant dead dog shi*.-

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/the-whole-cables-make-a-difference-thing.327680/


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garym
2013-09-03 12:05:12 UTC
Permalink
Jeff52 wrote:
> But, but, the great Steve Hoffman says cables do make a difference:
>
> -Of course they make a difference. It's up to YOU to carefully (and I do
> mean CAREFULLY) determine if the difference is good for your system or
> not. Don't be fooled or swayed by a sudden top end burst of "detail".
> Make sure the midrange doesn't suffer and the bass doesn't get too
> leaned out or whatever.
>
> First set of expensive cables I ever borrowed I was so excited to try
> them but they made my system sound like instant dead dog shi*.-
>
> http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/the-whole-cables-make-a-difference-thing.327680/

I suspect he wasn't talking about USB or ethernet cables in this
discussion. For *analog* distribution (e.g., speaker wires), cable
*can* make a difference.



*Location 1:* VortexBox Appliance 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Transporter,
Touch, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > SqueezePlay
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S (iPeng), iPad2 (iPengHD & SqueezePad),
CONTROLLER, or SqueezePlay 7.7 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Spotify
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ralphpnj
2013-09-03 12:10:39 UTC
Permalink
garym wrote:
> I suspect he wasn't talking about USB or ethernet cables in this
> discussion. For *analog* distribution (e.g., speaker wires), cable
> *can* make a difference.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Mnyb
2013-09-03 12:15:24 UTC
Permalink
garym wrote:
> I suspect he wasn't talking about USB or ethernet cables in this
> discussion. For *analog* distribution (e.g., speaker wires), cable
> *can* make a difference.

Albeit a small one for speaker wires thats goes away when the cross
section is large enough esential parameters are R,L put it does not take
1000$ to accomplishi that !

Signal cables not so much if the design is "sane" C,L are esential and
the runs aare very short in home systems and the environment is not
noisy , thats why some mfg is getting away with unscreened cables ?

But i supect alle design are not "sane" and that analog cables differs
because of that ;)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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garym
2013-09-03 12:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb wrote:
> Albeit a small one for speaker wires thats goes away when the cross
> section is large enough esential parameters are R,L put it does not take
> 1000$ to accomplishi that !
>
> Signal cables not so much if the design is "sane" C,L are esential and
> the runs aare very short in home systems and the environment is not
> noisy , thats why some mfg is getting away with unscreened cables ?
>
> But i supect alle design are not "sane" and that analog cables differs
> because of that ;)

Agree! And I like the fact that Hoffman notes that different could be
worse sound, even with more expensive cables. Probably a high
correlation between price and lack of sane design.



*Location 1:* VortexBox Appliance 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Transporter,
Touch, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > SqueezePlay
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S (iPeng), iPad2 (iPengHD & SqueezePad),
CONTROLLER, or SqueezePlay 7.7 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Spotify
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Mnyb
2013-09-03 13:08:58 UTC
Permalink
garym wrote:
> Agree! And I like the fact that Hoffman notes that different could be
> worse sound, even with more expensive cables. Probably a high
> correlation between price and lack of sane design.

yeah how else to make it "different" much like NOS dac's with no or
unorthodox filter design etc :D



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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ralphpnj
2013-09-03 13:31:57 UTC
Permalink
garym wrote:
> Agree! And I like the fact that Hoffman notes that different could be
> worse sound, even with more expensive cables. Probably a high
> correlation between price and lack of sane design.

On a similar note years ago (at least 10 to 15 years) I was having my
Aragon power amp updated to Mark II status and I had personally brought
the amp to the Aragon factory which was located somewhat near to my
home. At the time the power (mains) cord upgrade craze was in full swing
so I asked the chief designer of the Aragon amp if changing the power
cord would be worthwhile. What he told me was that the stock power cord
was all that was needed and perhaps changing the power cord would result
in a very slightly difference in the sound but that the difference might
not be an improvement just a difference.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Jeff52
2013-09-03 18:59:11 UTC
Permalink
I can't speak for you guys, but I suspect I would be hard-pressed to
identify in a blind test any difference between a standard interconnect,
such as those sold by Blue Jeans, and any of the so-called premium
cables.


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garym
2013-09-03 19:04:10 UTC
Permalink
Jeff52 wrote:
> I can't speak for you guys, but I suspect I would be hard-pressed to
> identify in a blind test any difference between a standard interconnect,
> such as those sold by Blue Jeans, and any of the so-called premium
> cables.

Same for me. But heck, my "premium" interconnects *are* the ones I
bought from Blue Jeans! ;-)



*Location 1:* VortexBox Appliance 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Transporter,
Touch, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > SqueezePlay
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S (iPeng), iPad2 (iPengHD & SqueezePad),
CONTROLLER, or SqueezePlay 7.7 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Spotify
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ralphpnj
2013-09-03 19:17:57 UTC
Permalink
Jeff52 wrote:
> I can't speak for you guys, but I suspect I would be hard-pressed to
> identify in a blind test any difference between a standard interconnect,
> such as those sold by Blue Jeans, and any of the so-called premium
> cables.

Hence there is NEVER any kind of blind testing being done on cables (or
for that matter any type of audio equipment) in any of the high end
audio magazines. No blind tests but lots of glossy pages filled with ads
for high priced cables along with the occasional and often outrageously
funny "white paper" purporting to present the "scientific reason" why a
given cable is sonically superior to all other cables.

White paper and white lab coat - puff - irrefutable scientific proof!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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JohnSwenson
2013-09-12 19:20:53 UTC
Permalink
I'd like to reply to some comments in this thread, particularly to the
ones about SETs and NOS DACs. These are not in the same category as
electret cream, they are real life engineering tradeoffs. I'll give some
examples of both.

I'll start with the SET. I have built MANY amplifiers over the years,
both solid state and tube, covering many different architectures. They
all have different tradeoffs, doing one aspect better than others.
Different people will prefer different implementations, they really like
the optimization of one and are willing to live with it's deficiencies.


The SET is an interesting case, from a sound perspective it does some
things extrordinarily well that some people absolutely love, and does
other things poorly, some people are willing to live with the
deficiencies to to get what it does well. Other people are not. Part of
the issue here is that what it does poorly is very easy to measure, and
what it does well is very difficult to measure (not impossible, just
difficult). It took a long time for the engineers to figure out how to
measure what it was doing well. Now that what an SET does well is mostly
known some designers have been able to come up with solid state circuits
that sound similar, but they still have a some of the same deficiencies.


In my case my current main amp is an SEP, Single Ended Pentode, it has a
similar good characteristics to an SET, but it also has vastly lower
distortion, less than 0.1% over the whole power range (up to 25 watts)
and frequency range. This has been possible by eventually understanding
what it is about SETs that make them sound good, and then figuring
out how to keep that while improving other aspects. This turns out not
to be easy, improving one aspecct very often makes the other worse. It's
good old fashioned engineering tradeoffs. Unfortunately it's not cheap,
there are about $3000 worth of parts in this thing and it weighs 150
pounds, but boy does it sound good when driving the speakers it was
designed to drive. With $3000 worth of parts it would be very expensive
if it were commercially produced, and that would NOT be exhorbitant
profits, it just plain costs a lot of money to get that level of
performance. At least for now. Over time designers might figure out
how to do it for a lot less money, but that hasn't happened yet.

On the DAC side, many years ago I (and others) noticed an interesting
fact, that when you bypassed the internal digital filter in most DAC
chips things sounded better in some ways, and also worse in others.
Without the filter the sound was more musical, more alive, more
realistic, BUT it also sounded "dirtier". Some people are willing to
live with the "dirtier" in order to get the "more alive" sound. The
dirtier of course comes from the aliases, but nobody yet knows what the
digital filters are doing that squashes the "alivenes". Again it's a
case of nobody knows how to measure "the goodness" but it is very easy
to measure the "badness".

I have spent the last 7 years trying to find out what it is that the
digital filters are doing that causes the problem. My currrent
understanding is that it is NOT the fact that it is a digitalfilter in
general that is the problem, but the implementation that is used in
ALL DAC chips that have a builtin filter. In order to get extremely
good numbers in the spec sheets for certain parameters the designers
have taken to using complex filters in the chips. Getting these spec
sheet numbers with the traditional mathemetical function you read about
in DSP textbooks takes a lot of processing power which would
significantly increase the price of the chips. So they have come up with
DSP "tricks" to get those numbers, but now the filter function is much
more complex, and this "complexity" seems somehow responsible for the
sonic degradation. At this point I have no idea WHY this is, just that
it is.

I have now built several DACs using external digital filters and DAC
chips that either don't have digital filters or it can be turned off.
When I use the basic simple function and give it enough processing power
(either in software on a computer or in an FPGA) the results are
amazing, you get the "aliveness" of the NOS DAC, but all the dirt is
gone, the result is stunning.

Again the NOS DAC is a tradeoff, people willing to live with the
negative aspect to get the positive aspect. As we start to understand
what is going on it starts to get possible to do away with the tradeoff
and get both aspects done well.

Neither the SET nor the NOS DAC are an attempt to bilk the public for
monitary gain, they are legitimate engineering tradeoffs that some
people are willing to take. Hopefully as we understand what is actually
going on we will be able to do away with the tradeoffs, but that is not
fully there yet.

John S.


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ralphpnj
2013-09-12 19:56:51 UTC
Permalink
JohnSwenson wrote:
> I'd like to reply to some comments in this thread, particularly to the
> ones about SETs and NOS DACs. These are not in the same category as
> electret cream, they are real life engineering tradeoffs. I'll give some
> examples of both.
>
> ......
>
> John S.

Thanks John for your very informative post. Now how about your take on
the latest and perhaps greatest high end audio scam: high priced digital
interconnects or does your affiliation with Stereophile forbid you from
commenting on this?



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Mnyb
2013-09-12 20:02:13 UTC
Permalink
I have to disagree slightly .

The SET sound can in it's totality all be explained within the amps
distortion pattern and output impedance and nonlinear behaviour . This
may sound "better" to some but this is not transparent treatment of the
signal . It's a sound effect IMO .

I could accept the SET circus if they where frank about what they are
doing , " we have this pleasing distortion for you " instead of claiming
magic properties of the unknown that somehows sounds " better " than op
amps and transistors ?

I have heard some of the tube stuff I does actually do some things
really well , but it is an artifice something added by the amps not
inherent in the signal .

What should make most people sceptical is the sometime radical
differences that you get , the best equipment should simply converge to
similar sound so similar that it is mostly the recording itself you hear
.

Speakers will probably never get there , it's still pick your poison .

I would argue that good signal level equipment is there already
,distortion and noise levels ~100dB below signal .
I would like irrefutable proof that any such difference can be detected
under controlled circumstances by human beings before it would be
interesting to delve in to the finer design details or product specifics
?

There is a need by some audiophiles to make everything sound good , it
can't .
I think that's the basis for much off the " upgrade " fever that get
many of us , to fix the unfixable .
The sonic and artistic choices picked by artist and producers are what
they are , sometime it sounds very abrasive to some while others love it
.
Its here that silly notion of " pure " equipment gets to me , no simple
eq or tone controlls to simply adjust when you disagree with the
producer :) instead you go the " expensive tone controll route " simply
weird engineering IMO .

The acoustic is what it is for many of us , ( if you can afford it build
a separate listening room 100% acoustically treated , this will cost
less than the most expensive high end anyway ).

So we still love to buy new audio gear , how to rationalise that ? I
love the stuff if I could afford it I would keep everything I buy as
collectibles :)

But I do think of 30000$ DAC as frauds or in best case painfully
inefficient design and production methods .
Or preamps in silly price ranges that are not really preamps any more !
Just a line stage and volume no phono stage no tone controlls no balance
no mono or phase inversion switch no gain adjustment ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Julf
2013-09-13 15:44:09 UTC
Permalink
JohnSwenson wrote:
> IPart of the issue here is that what it does poorly is very easy to
> measure, and what it does well is very difficult to measure (not
> impossible, just difficult). It took a long time for the engineers to
> figure out how to measure what it was doing well.

So how do you measure what a SET does well?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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JohnSwenson
2013-09-16 02:16:46 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> So how do you measure what a SET does well?

I was wondering if someone would ask that!

The part that seems to make the difference is a monotonically decreasing
harmonic structure. The third harmonic is a little less than the second,
the forth is a little less than the third etc, all the way down to the
noise floor. Today this is a very easy measurement, a good sound card
and FFT software on a computer can do it. But up until 20 years or so
ago it took an expensive spectrum analyzer to resolve the harmonics all
the way down.

This is VERY different than the "typical" solid state amp. With these
the 2nd harmonic will be very low or almost non-existant, then the third
will be much higher, then the forth very low, then the fifth a little
less than the third. In this sequence the even harmonics are very low or
almost absent and the odd harmonics are much greater. And somewhere
around the 7th or 9th harmonic the odd ones start getting higher. This
is a very different looking harmonic structure.

You can't just stop at the 3rd or 4th harmonic, you have to go up to the
13th or 15th to really see what is happening. That means don't just look
at 1KHz signals, look at some lower frequency ones as well.

For some reason the human perceptual system likes the monotonically
decreasing harmonic structure better, even though the total amount of
distortion is greater.

As I mentioned it IS possible to make both tube and solid state amps
that have this harmonic structure and significantly lower overall
distortion, but they have not "taken over the market", probably because
most of these designs are very inefficient. For example my big tube amp
gives 25W per channel, but takes 350 W. It wouldn't exactly pass modern
efficiency standards!

John S.


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Julf
2013-09-16 08:37:38 UTC
Permalink
JohnSwenson wrote:
> I was wondering if someone would ask that!

Well, somebody had to... :)

> The part that seems to make the difference is a monotonically decreasing
> harmonic structure.

I absolutely agree with that in the case of SET amps that have quite a
bit of harmonic distortion (but of the "right" kind). Not sure about
modern solid state and class D amps that have extremely low harmonic
distortion. Would harmonics matter at that low a level? Or is the issue
lack of "good" harmonics to make the sound pleasant?

> Today this is a very easy measurement, a good sound card and FFT
> software on a computer can do it. But up until 20 years or so ago it
> took an expensive spectrum analyzer to resolve the harmonics all the way
> down.

True. The irony is that while measurements are getting better, easier
and cheaper, the audiophile publications are making less use of them...

> As I mentioned it IS possible to make both tube and solid state amps
> that have this harmonic structure and significantly lower overall
> distortion, but they have not "taken over the market", probably because
> most of these designs are very inefficient. For example my big tube amp
> gives 25W per channel, but takes 350 W. It wouldn't exactly pass modern
> efficiency standards!

That's why I am curious about class D amps that have a very different
distortion characteristic again...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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darrenyeats
2014-02-06 12:24:20 UTC
Permalink
JohnSwenson wrote:
>
> The part that seems to make the difference is a monotonically decreasing
> harmonic structure. The third harmonic is a little less than the second,
> the forth is a little less than the third etc, all the way down to the
> noise floor. Today this is a very easy measurement, a good sound card
> and FFT software on a computer can do it. But up until 20 years or so
> ago it took an expensive spectrum analyzer to resolve the harmonics all
> the way down.
>
> This is VERY different than the "typical" solid state amp. With these
> the 2nd harmonic will be very low or almost non-existant, then the third
> will be much higher, then the forth very low, then the fifth a little
> less than the third. In this sequence the even harmonics are very low or
> almost absent and the odd harmonics are much greater. And somewhere
> around the 7th or 9th harmonic the odd ones start getting higher. This
> is a very different looking harmonic structure.
>
> You can't just stop at the 3rd or 4th harmonic, you have to go up to the
> 13th or 15th to really see what is happening. That means don't just look
> at 1KHz signals, look at some lower frequency ones as well.
>
> For some reason the human perceptual system likes the monotonically
> decreasing harmonic structure better, even though the total amount of
> distortion is greater.
>
I pondered upon your comments and then I looked through Stereophile's
measurements on DACs with interesting results. See my post here:
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=151401 I hope you
don't mind me name-dropping you!



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
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Archimago
2014-02-07 01:40:50 UTC
Permalink
darrenyeats wrote:
> I pondered upon your comments and then I looked through Stereophile's
> measurements on DACs with interesting results. See my post here:
> http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=151401 I hope you
> don't mind me name-dropping you!

Interesting post Darren... Interesting extrapolation of John's comment.

However, I really don't know how reasonable it would be to extrapolate
those monotonic cascade of harmonics with these DACs which as you
indicate are down in the -100dB and below range! Tube amps have 2nd
order harmonics at something like -40dB which is orders of magnitude
louder in comparison... Furthermore, those graphs in Stereophile are
with input impedances of 600-ohms off the DAC. This is of course way
lower than the typical preamp in the tens of k-ohms.

I'd love to see DBTs demonstrating ability for people to differentiate
decent DACs when volume controlled. Until that's demonstrated, it's hard
to put much weight in whatever theory there may be for euphonic vs.
"dysphonic" gear.

Show me the piece of steak exists first... Then we talk about how it
tastes ;-)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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SBGK
2014-02-07 06:39:14 UTC
Permalink
I respectfully disagree with your viewpoints, apart from Mr Swenson. I
can't see these magazines changing any time soon so look forward to
plenty more of these Ralph PNJ & acolytes threads.



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
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ralphpnj
2014-02-07 11:24:14 UTC
Permalink
SBGK wrote:
> I respectfully disagree with your viewpoints, apart from Mr Swenson. I
> can't see these magazines changing any time soon so look forward to
> plenty more of these Ralph PNJ & acolytes threads.

Very true. And on a closely related note here is a link about to why
trying to debate science with people who have complete disregard for
science is a fool's errand

http://wwwp.dailyclimate.org/tdc-newsroom/2014/02/nye-evolution-climate-change-distraction



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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andy_c
2013-08-14 23:38:40 UTC
Permalink
garym wrote:
> Oh my! this entire page of misc components (posted above) is just
> unbelievable. If one was trying to create a humor page (ala "The Onion")
> regarding fake, stupid audiophool stuff, they couldn't do better than
> this page and the writeup of each item.
>
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/2013-recommended-components-miscellaneous

If you haven't already seen it, there's a pretty good spoof of
audiophile tweaks called "'_Elemental_Voice_'
(http://www.nathanmarciniak.com/elemental/)".


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induna
2013-08-15 03:46:42 UTC
Permalink
It is increasingly apparent that Mr. Barnum vastly underestimated the
human capacity for credulity.


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michael123
2013-08-15 11:06:26 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/2013-tas-editors-choice-awards-digital-interconnects/?utm_campaign=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=email-147
>
> Bring your shovel and get ready for a good laugh.

The one to try today is this
http://www.lightharmonic.com/lightspeed.html



Michael
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Jeff52
2013-08-15 12:55:18 UTC
Permalink
You have to love this comment appearing after the article of the P.W.B.
Cream Electret.


Chemical 'C'
Submitted by sudont on December 8, 2012 - 9:56am.

I have no difficulty believing that chemical compounds can enhance the
listening experience. My own tweak - let's call it chemical "c" -
greatly enhances the emotional impact, sweetness, liquidity, and
three-dimensionality of my system. Instead of rubbing it on components,
or placing it near cables and power supplies, one simply smokes a small
amount at the beginning of the session.

The improvement is immediate and undeniable. One becomes deeply engaged
with the music, and the equipment "disappears." In other words, it's
just you and the music. Thoughts of newer, more expensive equipment are
replaced by a contented feeling of, "I can't believe how freaking
awesome this sounds!" And, relatively speaking, it's an inexpensive
tweak.


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Mnyb
2013-08-15 13:40:13 UTC
Permalink
Jeff52 wrote:
> You have to love this comment (below) appearing after the Stereophile
> article about P.W.B. Cream Electret. The "inventor" of the Cream
> discussed Chemical A and Chemical B as examples of certain chemicals
> having a negative and positive effect on listeners.
>
> ***************************
>
> Chemical 'C'
> Submitted by sudont on December 8, 2012 - 9:56am.
>
> I have no difficulty believing that chemical compounds can enhance the
> listening experience. My own tweak - let's call it chemical "c" -
> greatly enhances the emotional impact, sweetness, liquidity, and
> three-dimensionality of my system. Instead of rubbing it on components,
> or placing it near cables and power supplies, one simply smokes a small
> amount at the beginning of the session.
>
> The improvement is immediate and undeniable. One becomes deeply engaged
> with the music, and the equipment "disappears." In other words, it's
> just you and the music. Thoughts of newer, more expensive equipment are
> replaced by a contented feeling of, "I can't believe how freaking
> awesome this sounds!" And, relatively speaking, it's an inexpensive
> tweak.

Well as i dont smoke "c" :) a glass of some ethanol coumpund have a
similar effect on me , I migth even dance a bit :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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ralphpnj
2013-08-15 20:34:36 UTC
Permalink
Jeff52 wrote:
> You have to love this comment (below) appearing after the Stereophile
> article about P.W.B. Cream Electret. The "inventor" of the Cream
> discussed Chemical A and Chemical B as examples of certain chemicals
> having a negative and positive effect on listeners.
>
> ***************************
>
> Chemical 'C'
> Submitted by sudont on December 8, 2012 - 9:56am.
>
> I have no difficulty believing that chemical compounds can enhance the
> listening experience. My own tweak - let's call it chemical "c" -
> greatly enhances the emotional impact, sweetness, liquidity, and
> three-dimensionality of my system. Instead of rubbing it on components,
> or placing it near cables and power supplies, one simply smokes a small
> amount at the beginning of the session.
>
> The improvement is immediate and undeniable. One becomes deeply engaged
> with the music, and the equipment "disappears." In other words, it's
> just you and the music. Thoughts of newer, more expensive equipment are
> replaced by a contented feeling of, "I can't believe how freaking
> awesome this sounds!" And, relatively speaking, it's an inexpensive
> tweak.

Mnyb wrote:
> Well as i dont smoke "c" :) a glass of some ethanol coumpund have a
> similar effect on me , I migth even dance a bit :)

You guys have it backwards - one has to be either smoking, drinking or
just plain on something in order to believe all their BS. In other
words, the last thing any audiophile who believes in this nonsense needs
is more drugs!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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andy_c
2013-08-16 01:55:07 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> You guys have it backwards - one has to be either smoking, drinking or
> just plain on something in order to believe all their BS. In other
> words, the last thing any audiophile who believes in this nonsense needs
> is more drugs!

Speaking of which, be sure to check out the TAS
'_Cable_Designer_Roundtable_'
(http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/cable-designer-roundtable/) :D


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ralphpnj
2013-08-17 16:15:35 UTC
Permalink
andy_c wrote:
> Speaking of which, be sure to check out the TAS
> '_Cable_Designer_Roundtable_'
> (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/cable-designer-roundtable/) :D

Cable Designer Roundtable aka How to Spin Straw Into Gold (with
apologies to The Brothers Grimm)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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& Energy sub
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Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
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satkinsn
2013-08-25 19:36:37 UTC
Permalink
I dunno. I'm having a hard time laughing, given that real money is being
paid.

I found 'this'
(http://www.audiostream.com/content/mike-wins-1400-usb-cable) sad,
especially because there was a time when I looked forward to reading
Stereophile and its related sites.

s.


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ralphpnj
2013-08-25 19:59:44 UTC
Permalink
satkinsn wrote:
> I dunno. I'm having a hard time laughing, given that real money is being
> paid.
>
> I found 'this'
> (http://www.audiostream.com/content/mike-wins-1400-usb-cable) sad,
> especially because there was a time when I looked forward to reading
> Stereophile and its related sites.
>
> s.

I agree. The truly sad part is that Stereophile and TAS both can
sometimes offer some very advice although those times are becoming rarer
and rarer. With all the nonsense both these once worthwhile magazines
have tossed with respect to cables/wires/interconnects and computer
based digital audio one now has to very seriously question each and
every thing written in their pages. As I've stated elsewhere not only do
they rarely do any kind direct listening comparisons, such as simple A/B
testing, never mind double blind testing, but they go so far as making
comparisons based on their reviewers years old memory of how a piece of
equipment sounds. For example a reviewer reviewing a new revision to a
piece of equipment, say a Mark II model, will compare the sound of the
new unit with their memory of the original unit that they reviewed
several years ago. Yikes!!........

And this is why I call them CLOWNS!!!

And by calling them clowns I am actually being rather nice since they
should really be called what they are: prostitutes.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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satkinsn
2013-08-25 21:13:27 UTC
Permalink
ralph wrote, in part:

> ...one now has to very seriously question each and every thing written
> in their pages.

That's the thing: I can't bring myself to trust any of what gets
written. This really is a "fish stinks from the head down" sort of
thing. If you will tell me with a straight face that a $1,300 usb cable
is different/finer than what I have in my drawer, what -do- I believe
you about? That a Magnum Dynalab internet tuner really does have more
"presence" and "can be near cd quality?" That a Tripath amplifier (my
path into the hobby) really does sound as good as an amp costing many
times as much, and that it's a sign of the uniqueness of Tripath chips,
as opposed to watts being watts?

I'm glad I know what I know, at last, but I'm not gonna lie: learning
this stuff ruined my enjoyment of my stereo for a while.

s.


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ralphpnj
2013-08-25 22:32:22 UTC
Permalink
satkinsn wrote:
> I'm glad I know what I know, at last, but I'm not gonna lie: learning
> this stuff ruined my enjoyment of my stereo for a while.
>
> s.

Luckily if one focuses on the music rather than on the equipment being
used to play back the recording then it's much easier for one to
assemble a decent playback system. Along with the added benefit of
enjoying lots of music along the way. Nowadays I find myself listening
to music and saying "Boy this sounds really good" instead of saying "I
wonder how this music would sound if I just changed this piece of
equipment". Remember it's enjoying the music that really matters.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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satkinsn
2013-08-26 00:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Took me a bit to get there, but yes, you're right. I listen on decent
but modest gear, which feels about right, in terms of how much
mental/emotional space it occupies in my life.

s.




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SteveEast
2013-08-28 01:05:52 UTC
Permalink
It's strange. When I was young all I cared about was the music. Then as
I got older, the equipment became more and more important and the music
less so. Now I seem to have come full circle and it's the music that
matters once again. And, let's face it, you can buy an awful lot more
music when you're not splashing out for a new piece of gear every six
months.

Steve.



Home: 3*SB3 (1 dead), 1*Touch, 1*Boom, 5*Radio, iPeng/SqueezePad on 2G
iPad, SbS 7.5.1 on Acer Aspire easyStore H340 WHS.
Cabin: 1*Touch running 7.5.0 on itself with 32GB SDHC card.
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ralphpnj
2013-08-28 01:35:37 UTC
Permalink
SteveEast wrote:
> It's strange. When I was young all I cared about was the music. Then as
> I got older, the equipment became more and more important and the music
> less so. Now I seem to have come full circle and it's the music that
> matters once again. And, let's face it, you can buy an awful lot more
> music when you're not splashing out for a new piece of gear every six
> months.
>
> Steve.

Hopefully you came full circle and along the way picked up some nice
sounding audio equipment. In addition I hope that people reading these
anti-audiophile threads understand that no one here is against well made
decent sounding reasonably priced equipment. What I and many others are
against is well made decent sounding INDECENTLY priced equipment.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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andy_c
2013-08-28 04:13:01 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> Hopefully you came full circle and along the way picked up some nice
> sounding audio equipment. In addition I hope that people reading these
> anti-audiophile threads understand that no one here is against well made
> decent sounding reasonably priced equipment. What I and many others are
> against is well made decent sounding INDECENTLY priced equipment.

I don't see these threads as anti-audiophile, as I consider myself an
audiophile, and have been since the late 1960s. I do see them as
anti-industry though. I think the industry has betrayed the audiophile
by embracing a business model that intends to mislead its customers. It
has succeeded rather well I think. I'll include the audiophile press as
part of this deception, whether intentional or by its own self-deception
(I'll go with the former).

Much high-priced gear is quite substandard measurement-wise, such as NOS
DACs and SET power amps. In the case of SETs, the difference is so
large that it's almost sure to be audible. If you're in the business of
self-fulfilling prophesy, that's a good thing I suppose.


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ralphpnj
2013-08-28 11:14:53 UTC
Permalink
andy_c wrote:
> I don't see these threads as anti-audiophile, as I consider myself an
> audiophile, and have been since the late 1960s. I do see them as
> anti-industry though. I think the industry has betrayed the audiophile
> by embracing a business model that intends to mislead its customers. It
> has succeeded rather well I think. I'll include the audiophile press as
> part of this deception, whether intentional or by its own self-deception
> (I'll go with the former).
>
> Much high-priced gear is quite substandard measurement-wise, such as NOS
> DACs and SET power amps. In the case of SETs, the difference is so
> large that it's almost sure to be audible. If you're in the business of
> self-fulfilling prophesy, that's a good thing I suppose.

Very well stated. As far as the audiophile press is concerned I am
firmly convinced that they are a big part of the deception. I'll use the
trusty USB cable as the main piece of evidence in the case. Anyone with
even the most basic understanding of how digital signals are transmitted
would realize that overpriced audiophile USB cables are no better than
inexpensive USB cables at transmitting digital signals. So either the
audiophile press lacks this basic understanding or they are
intentionally part of the deception. Take your pick. Idiots or liars but
always clowns.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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P Nelson
2013-08-29 14:48:47 UTC
Permalink
The audio cable makers for years have found willing buyers to pay
emourous sums of money on analog cables that would 'improve' the sound
of their systems. (I believe quality cables are important, but the
incremental alteration in sound which gets labeled as improvement is not
worth the money for these uber expensive cables). With the switch to
digital, cable makers are desperate to continue their business model, so
they wil come up with any explanation to sell thier products which have
a huge profit margin. Buyers conditioned to seek improvement in the
digital world continue to purchase these cables.

As for the professional reviewer, they are either so conditioned to
believe everything has an impact or they are simply dependent on the
advertising revenue from these companies.

The fact is audio makers have been improving the sound and difference
between the entry level and the top of the line is small, the price
difference is more about features than sound quality.

Paul


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Mnyb
2013-08-29 15:01:56 UTC
Permalink
As it is said, the fish stinks from head down . I would put dual
distrust in thief capacity to correctly evaluate analog gear.

Example : the tube cult .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Peter Galbavy
2013-08-30 09:17:04 UTC
Permalink
the customers reviews for the (in)famous Denon Link cable are wonderful
to read:

http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/B000I1X6PM

Yes, it is just a piece of shielded Cat5e cable with Denon printed on
it. For $500.


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Julf
2013-08-30 12:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Peter Galbavy wrote:
> the customers reviews for the (in)famous Denon Link cable are wonderful
> to read

Brilliant! :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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andy_c
2013-08-31 03:32:24 UTC
Permalink
Peter Galbavy wrote:
> the customers reviews for the (in)famous Denon Link cable are wonderful
> to read:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/B000I1X6PM
>
> Yes, it is just a piece of shielded Cat5e cable with Denon printed on
> it. For $500.

And the Accoutrements Horse Head Mask is pretty awesome too :)


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ralphpnj
2013-08-31 12:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Peter Galbavy wrote:
> the customers reviews for the (in)famous Denon Link cable are wonderful
> to read:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/B000I1X6PM
>
> Yes, it is just a piece of shielded Cat5e cable with Denon printed on
> it. For $500.

As funny as most of these "reviews" are, it really is sad since these
reviews just show how most non-audiophiles view audiophiles and their
ridiculous toys. Nonetheless I am still sorely tempted to try this
wonderful product based solely on this review:

"Horrified, June 20, 2008
By Deviant
This review is from: Denon AKDL1 Dedicated Link Cable (Electronics)
Me and my brother chose to listen chose Captain Beefhearts 'Trout Mask
Replica' after setting up this cable with our Denon Home Theatre
System....."

I've listened to Trout Mask Replica hundreds of times over these past 40
years in may different mental states but I never experienced anything
like what is described in the above review. Maybe those audiophile
reviewers are onto something that we skeptics are simply unaware of.
Transdimensional Beefheart - what a concept!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
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darrenyeats
2013-09-21 10:10:43 UTC
Permalink
John,
I'm more open minded now thanks to some recent experiences with my DAC1
attenuator settings. These contradict the orthodoxy of my previous
thinking regarding gear measurements.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 4



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
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ralphpnj
2013-09-24 14:12:41 UTC
Permalink
This thread was started in response to the absolutely absurd claim by
the high end audio press and high end cable manufacturers that high end
USB cables sound better than standard USB cables and as such I'm still
waiting for Mr. Swenson's take on this subject.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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