[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option

[Lucmichaud]

What is the best output method to send the signal to an external dac.

I recently tried a SPL Director. There was a marked impovement when
connecting it straight from a NAS to it though USB, but the improvement
was barely audible when going from the Transporter reading the data wifi
from my Surface pro 3 tablet using spdif.

Anybody have an idea?


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[Julf]

Post by Lucmichaud
What is the best output method to send the signal to an external dac.
I recently tried a SPL Director. There was a marked impovement when
connecting it straight from a NAS to it though USB, but the improvement
was barely audible when going from the Transporter reading the data wifi
from my Surface pro 3 tablet using spdif.
Anybody have an idea?

Really depends on your DAC.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[drmatt]

Post by Lucmichaud
I recently tried a SPL Director. There was a marked impovement when
connecting it straight from a NAS to it though USB, but the improvement
was barely audible when going from the Transporter reading the data wifi
from my Surface pro 3 tablet using spdif.

I'm not sure what the last sentence means.

What are your input choices on your DAC?




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[edwardthern]

Sometimes different Dacs respond/sound differently from various inputs.

Best thing to do is try them all and settle on what your Dac sounds the
best with....


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[garym]

If you're using an external DAC with your transporter, sell the
transporter. ;)



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
(all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win8(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Transporter, Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
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[drmatt]

Post by garym
If you're using an external DAC with your transporter, sell the
transporter. ;)

Exactly. Transporter is a high end DAC bolted on to a bog standard
squeezebox streamer. If you're not using its DAC it's an expensive
digital source.




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[arnyk]

Post by Lucmichaud
What is the best output method to send the signal to an external dac.
I recently tried a SPL Director.

Don't. The Transporter internal DAC is first-rate.

Post by Lucmichaud
There was a marked improvement when connecting it straight from a NAS
to it though USB, but the improvement was barely audible when going from
the Transporter reading the data wifi from my Surface pro 3 tablet using
spdif.

Ever hear of the placebo effect?

Post by Lucmichaud
Anybody have an idea?

Your evaluation was most likely not level-matched, not time-synched, and
not blind. IOW you most likely heard what you wanted to hear.

I recently saw an industry survey that showed over 400 different makes
and models of ADCs. What's ironic is that there are very many reasons
to believe that if the listening tests avoid the common errors listed
above, they would all sound the same.


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[Julf]

Post by arnyk
I recently saw an industry survey that showed over 400 different makes
and models of ADCs. What's ironic is that there are very many reasons
to believe that if the listening tests avoid the common errors listed
above, they would all sound the same.

Probably not. Some have non-optimal reconstruction filters on purpose,
and others have analog stages that are tweaked for a "house sound".



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[edwardthern]

I have a radical solution.

Take the transporter and gut it...then put a raspberrypi inside and use
the USB output.

You get the benefit of having the transporter still in the rack and usb
output, which you said sounds better.

;);)


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[arnyk]

Post by Julf
Probably not. Some have non-optimal reconstruction filters on purpose,
and others have analog stages that are tweaked for a "house sound".

And that's why I said "very many reasons why they would sound the same"
instead of just saying that they all sound the same.

I've looked at a few DACs that have non-optimal reconstruction filters,
probably with the intent of making them sound different. The designer
apparently overestimated the sensitivity of the ear to the suboptimal
performance, and the DAC still sounded the same. There are some where
the suboptimality of the design is soo bad that they even sound
different.

One of the best ways to make the analog stage actually color the sound
is to put a transformer in it. Runs the price up, too.


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[Julf]

Post by arnyk
One of the best ways to make the analog stage actually color the sound
is to put a transformer in it. Runs the price up, too.

Tubes/valves seem pretty popular for that too...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[daverich4]

Post by arnyk
Don't. The Transporter internal DAC is first-rate.
I recently saw an industry survey that showed over 400 different makes
and models of ADCs.

It may very well be but I'd be surprised if even Sean Adams feels that
10 years ago he designed the bestest ever, never to be improved upon,
DAC. As far as your comment on the industry survey, any chance you were
referring to DAC's and not ADC's?


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[Mnyb]

The point is that some (maybe quite many) modern DAC's will ofcourse be
even better but you wont hear that . They all surpassed our hearing
abilities a decades ago , unless tweaked to "sound diffrent" .
And TP was very good at it's time and audio is mature tech there is not
as much development as hardware mfg's wants you to believe.
After all if S/N ratios is at 120dB and surpass most recordings ever
dones intrinsic SQ what can your realy do ?

So get a new DAC when the old one breaks or does not have the desired
features or inputs, not to get "improved SQ".
There ara other sample rates and DSD et all nowadays .

In the transporter case it's a squeezebox that have external inputs but
not as well featured as some dacs. Some DAC's have USB inputs and
multiple SPDIF inputs etc.

If OP want to leave the squeezebox ecosystem , another DAC bougth from
the money you get by selling the transporter migth be a good idea for
many other reasons ?



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Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
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[arnyk]

Post by daverich4
It may very well be but I'd be surprised if even Sean Adams feels that
10 years ago he designed the bestest ever, never to be improved upon,
DAC. As far as your comment on the industry survey, any chance you were
referring to DAC's and not ADC's?

Yes, it was a typo - DACs not ADCs.

Thanks for the correction.


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[arnyk]

Post by daverich4
It may very well be but I'd be surprised if even Sean Adams feels that
10 years ago he designed the bestest ever, never to be improved upon,
DAC.[ /QUOTE]
Irrelevant. The human ear is far from perfect, and so are the recordings
we listen to and the rooms that we listen to them in. We've had DACs
that have been free of audible imperfections since the middle 1980s.

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[drmatt]

*Can* sound better, as it will allow the DAC to operate using its own
internal clock.




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[Mnyb]

It would be impossible to say for sure , the Transporter is well
designed product developer by sane people .
So the outputs should be ok all of them , the may differ measurably ,
but a product like this do not really have audible jitter levels for
example .

AES/EBU is actually not better than spdiff on Transporter ( there are
som words from the designer Sean Adams about that on this forum ) .
AES/EBU has raised some magic thinking in audiophile press and fora as
it is a "professional format" . The professional part is really about
repurposing xlr cables and patch switch boards to make a conversion from
analog to digital studio cheaper and simpler ,this was a concern in the
80's and 90's.

So use any output they are probably all beyond human abilities to tell
apart .

On the other side the DAC you intend to use ? Then it can get different
it should not but it can if that design is somehow flawed so it prefers
one input .

So no one can really say without knowing what DAC you intend to use .

If we assume you buy any reasonably designed DAC , a say just pick one
output .

Best solution would be to actually sell the transporter and get an PI
with some digital out board .
Transporter is "only" a 24/96 device using the digital out would not
change that .
This would not matter much either but more exotic formats would need
server transcoding .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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[drmatt]

(Which doesn't mean they all sound the same.)




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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
(Which doesn't mean they all sound the same.)

...but in general they do sound the same if you do a good listening
test, as opposed to what most audiophiles actually do.

(1) Level match
(2) Time synch
(3) Blind test


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[drmatt]

I remain sceptical that a test designed solely to make it hard to tell
the difference is representative of long term differentiation
capability. But that's just my opinion and we are very aware that many
people disagree with that.




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[arnyk]

I remain skeptical that a test designed solely to make it hard to tell
the difference is representative of long term differentiation
capability. But that's just my opinion and we are very aware that many
people disagree with that.

The good news is that the listening tests I recommend were *never
designed to make it hard to hear real differences*. That's an audiophile
myth or more probably a dealer myth because audio dealers know that
helping people make more rational choices are going to cost them money.

The tests I recommend were designed to reduce or eliminate differences
that don't matter, differences that are *not* representative of actual
listening.

For example, level matched is actually how we usually listen because we
usually listen to just one set of components that are of course level
matched with themselves. We're just eliniating a difference that is
uniquely added when we compare compoents as opposed to listening to them
for enjoyment.

Audible differences due to listening level are trivial and nothing that
anybody wants to pay for. Minimizing them is why audio systems have
level controls - to allow you to listen at the level you want, and not
affected by an accidentally introduced difference.


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[Mnyb]

Post by drmatt
I remain sceptical that a test designed solely to make it hard to tell
the difference is representative of long term differentiation
capability. But that's just my opinion and we are very aware that many
people disagree with that.

You dont need to rely on that look at the measurments , far better than
the recordings most plays and far better than human hearing ( in the
very best humans in a home settling maybe at 13 bits a good day ). I
think I managed -76db in my own room in my own listening position . Test
as follows my typical listening level , use test signals with diminish
loudness .
(Best case ear against tweeter volume at full tilt -112dB)

Devices ( any ) with flat frequency response low noise and low
distorsion are simply not audible , most small signal electronics .

Power amps driven outside of spec and the general gain scaling errors
and other missmatches complivate things sometimes.

Btw you can run dbt's for monthnif you pike tomstudy longterm effects



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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
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[drmatt]

Post by Mnyb
You dont need to rely on that look at the measurments , far better than
the recordings most plays and far better than human hearing ( in the
very best humans in a home settling maybe at 13 bits a good day )

I don't disagree. But I am sure I can tell the difference.. therefore
what differences there are must exist in that top 13 bits or so of
dynamic range.. cue the sirens..

I doubt I could tell the difference with a frequency sweep though.




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[Mnyb]

Post by drmatt
I don't disagree. But I am sure I can tell the difference.. therefore
what differences there are must exist in that top 13 bits or so of
dynamic range.. cue the sirens..
I doubt I could tell the difference with a frequency sweep though.

You have to test that sometime ?

When I was a card carrying audiophile I was utterly convinced that I did
hear differences everywhere .

Best case scenario is quite common , I think the exotic boutique hif is
more prone to weirdness . Normal midfi probably has robust line level
implementation.
This the kind of things sites and audio press should test ? Not
listening to power cables .
It should be trivial to make a modern AV reciever perfectly transparent,
but they migth not be , the complexity of such product makes mistakes
likely and as they are complex to test ? Looks like work , better wax
about the life like presentation of some preamp :)

Example some dude had problems here years ago with distortion from his
squeezebox, turned out that his tube preamp clipped at 0.5 volt input ?
Some kind of Manley product ! You can easily beat high boutique stuff
with chines DVD players from Walmart :)
regarding performance .

Point is that it's well known electrical engineering . We miss out from
high end due their development process/marketing scam tactics ,sighted
eveluation and weird beliefs that disregard common best practice on how
to do stuff , instead make it complex and expensive and anachronistic.

Household products can be very good if the engineer bothered reading the
standard textbooks it does not really cost much to implement
soundquality due to readily aviable chipset and even design examples
from the factory, but most regular customers don't really care so it can
be there or not .
Kudos,to,the likes of oppo who does it good . And also kudos to the
cottage industry that builds HAT DAC's for PI , that's hifi at
reasonable prices 10-30k$ on a DAC is just silly .

Btw is not the Transporter very similar to the then current AKM
reference design ? With some help from the actual AKM engineers . I
respect the TP's fresh aproach to high end, it is a top class product it
was as expensive as squeezebox possibly needed to bee throwing more
money at it would not have improved the product . And yes why not ask
the chip manufacturer about how to best use thier products :)
For giggles Google all the old treads with people modding the TP (
making it worse ) swapping capacitors and sticking tubes into it.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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[edwardthern]

Post by Mnyb
You have to test that sometime ?
When I was a card carrying audiophile I was utterly convinced that I did
hear differences everywhere .

Just what I suspected....your Audiophile card has been revoked!!!

Well I still have my Audiophile card "Platinum" and I can hear a
difference in EVERYTHING.

Turning nose up and walking away...


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[drmatt]

Well, truth is I haven't proved it to myself either way, but so far I'm
of the opinion that I can tell the diff between the DACs I've tried out.
One is certainly flawed, or "tuned" at least to sound a particular way.
The other two the differences were ultra subtle but I do believe they
are there. I can't deny this could come down to just minor differences
in frequency response at the extremes (bass, most notably).

OK then there's the DACs in the SBT which imho can't really compete in
terms of clarity with the off board DACs I've been demoing.

This is not an exhaustive trial of the market.. nor is it particularly
scientific..

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk




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[Mnyb]

There is also what it drives, so me DAC's may not very low impedance
output stages or it varies with frequncy.
Is it migrh not work splendidly with for example passive preamps .

Is not Touch a bit picky in that regard ? And signal levels can upset
things to . I migth have idealised some , due to a lack of proper
standards there is plenty of room for mismatches



--------------------------------------------------------------------
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[drmatt]

This is it, is got to be too simplistic to say they all sound the same.
I am inclined to think that all DAC chips *can* sound the same -
assuming they have equal quality power supplies and are driving a
particularly easy load, but that's not the real world.

(My pre amp is not passive btw.)

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk




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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
This is it, is got to be too simplistic to say they all sound the same.

Well they don't *all* sound the same, but the vast majority of them do.

Post by drmatt
I am inclined to think that all DAC chips *can* sound the same -
assuming they have equal quality power supplies and are driving a
particularly easy load, but that's not the real world.

All DAC chips don't sound the same, just the ones that are well-designed
and are designed to be sonically transparent.

Post by drmatt
Last time I did listening tests it took some pretty sorry crap for
example the DAC in a CD-ROM dri for its headphone jack, to actually be
bad enough to sound difference. Through about 2005 it was possible to
find PC's that had bad enough DACs to actually sound bad, but now it
takes some substandard design of the PC layout on the motherboard to
make them sound difference, and the difference is usually obvious stuff
like hum and noise.

The idea DACs need special attention in the power supply or line driver
department to sound right is an audiophile myth.

It would be fun to set up a good listening test at a high end hi fi show
and watch all the self-important owners of expensive DACs learn the
truth. I doubt that they would let me rent a booth, as the outcome would
be a disaster for the big financial interests.


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[Mnyb]

Post by arnyk
Well they don't *all* sound the same, but the vast majority of them do.
All DAC chips don't sound the same, just the ones that are well-designed
and are designed to be sonically transparent.
The idea DACs need special attention in the power supply or line driver
department to sound right is an audiophile myth.
It would be fun to set up a good listening test at a high end hi fi show
and watch all the self-important owners of expensive DACs learn the
truth. I doubt that they would let me rent a booth, as the outcome would
be a disaster for the big financial interests.

I think this stuff needs normal attention, the designer knows his EE .
In these days pick a suitable op amp for line driver .

A typical audiophile design can make life hard for its designer ( and
the price high to its customer ) a discrete design trying to complete
with ic's is complex and hard pressed to reach the same performance and
psrr , more demands on the power supply .
Or a no negative feedback design with basically no psrr meaning extreme
attention to the power supply .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Gazjam]

Going back to the OP's original question for a moment, Transporter owner
here and had that exact same question.
Spent quite a bit of time listening and comparing the different digital
outputs from the TP, so have direct experience which hopefully is of
help. :)

QUICK VERSION?
Transporter Dac sounds great, but can be bettered.

XLR was the best sounding to me, but only with a high end digital XLR
cable.
This hookup to my dac is noticably better than any other.

BNC second best, again cables make a substantial difference here.
RCA and optical much of a muchness, though optical with a glass (not
plastic) fibre sounded better than RCA.


LONG VERSION!
I wanted to know I'd at least tried them all and found (to my ears) the
best sounding connection, if indeed there was any difference to be
heard!
Have a pretty resolving system and I can hear differences between
equipment.

The TP run from its analogue outputs sounds extremely good, and you need
a pretty good Dac to better imo it but it can be done.
As a digital transport its superb, sounded noticably better than my old
SB3 into the same Dac and better again than even my Touch when I
directly compared them as transports playing the same 24/96 stuff.
Unexpected...yup, but thats how it was.
So I'd NOT advise selling your Transporter or ripping its guts out!
I was looking at upgrading it (because it only does 24/96 and thought I
was missing out) and took it to local Linn and Naim dealers to see what
the current streamers could offer.
From its analogue outputs, the Linn and Naim players were better,
particularly the higher end ones.
As a digital transport though...it gets REALLY interesting...

* Naim?
Preferred the Transporter to the Naim players, less "hifi" and more
about the music.
Was only when the dealer bolted in a megabucks powersupply that the Naim
got better.

*Linn?
Preferred the Transporter all the way up the range until I heard the
Klimax player, their top of the line and costs silly money. Wow..its
noticably better.
I came away without spending any money and seriously impressed by what
the Transporter can sound like in a really high end system.
So dont sell your Transporter...its potential as a digital transport
wont hold back what a really good dac can do.

Best digital output to a Dac though?
Tried all the digital outputs into my Dac (modded M2Tech Young with
linear psu) and despite what Sean Adams had said...I found AES/XLR to be
the best sounding.
Yup. :)
BUT (and puts on flameproof coat) this was only with a high end XLR
digital cable.

Started off with a good quality Bluejeans cable, didn't sound as good as
the BNC output.
From recommendations on Computer Audiophile forum, I bought a couple of
American cables.
On to a DH Labs 110, better again but BNC still better.
finally put in a Morrow Cables Digi4..
http://morrowaudio.com/audiophile-and-home-theater/digital-cables/dig4-grand-
and wow, big improvement and quite a bit better than BNC, and this was
using an equivalent level BNC cable.

BNC was the next best sounding to me, and was only bettered when I put
the Morrow digital cable in.
RCA was "ok" but optical sounded a little better, but only with a glass
optical cable.

Just my experience, my ears my system.
I really wanted to get this one right though so it didnt niggle away in
the back of my mind, and happy to say I've got there.

Happy to run my Transporter into my Dac as the internal dac can be
improved on, and that XLR is the best digital hookup type.
Invest in a Morrow digital cable, seriously, its worth every penny and
shows just what the Transporter can do.
Its been a bit of a cable find to be honest.
A cheaper option would be the DH Labs 110 XLR cable, that sounded good,
but doesn't get close to what the Morrow does.

Further down the line I will retire the Transporter, mainly as at some
point I will upgrade my Dac and I am curious about DSD.
In particular Im looking at the PS Audio gear, which is pretty
innovative in what their Directstream Dac does. Not cheap though so need
to save up for a while.
Happy to enjoy the Transporter in the meantime, its a helluva piece of
kit.

But yeah, Sean got the Transporter exactly right and it will sit happily
with any upgrades to your system for a while yet.


Hopefully this is of help to the OP. :)


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[mooblie]

What's a "digital XLR cable"?



Martin at
*_'HeadSpin_HD'
(http://www.headspin.plus.com)_* now on -*Blu-ray-*
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[Julf]

Post by Gazjam
I wanted to know I'd at least tried them all and found (to my ears) the
best sounding connection, if indeed there was any difference to be
heard!

Just your ears, or your eyes/preconceived notions too?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Gazjam]

Post by Julf
Just your ears, or your eyes/preconceived notions too?

Dont be so daft.


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[Julf]

Stop being silly.

The fact that you find that question silly tells a lot. Thanks for
answering my question.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Gazjam]

Post by Julf
The fact that you find that question silly tells a lot. Thanks for
answering my question.

Julf

Feel free to draw whatever inference you want, not my business what you
think.

My post described my own experience in my own system with my own ears,
hopefully the OP (to which it was directed) will be wise enough look on
it as one guys hopefully helpful experience and not as "absolute fact"?

Something which I think you may have missed.


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[Julf]

Post by Gazjam
Feel free to draw whatever inference you want, not my business what you
think.
My post described my own experience in my own system with my own ears

Ears, eyes and expectations, yes. And that is just what I wanted to
confirm, thanks!



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Gazjam]

Post by Julf
Ears, eyes and expectations, yes. And that is just what I wanted to
confirm, thanks!

Dont be silly.


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[arnyk]

Predictable...
Please dont be silly.

So you're saying that there is no such thing as listener bias and
placebo effects, right?

Probably why you hide behind an anonymous alias!


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[Gazjam]

Ffs...
im off.


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[arnyk]

Only saying what the words I used are saying.

The words you said indicate that you don't believe that that listener
bias and placebo effects can ruin the accuracy and relevance of your
evaluations, and therefore you understand that any well-informed person
will completely ignore them. If that's true, why did you bother posting
them?


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[Mnyb]

Post by arnyk
The words you said indicate that you don't believe that that listener
bias and placebo effects can ruin the accuracy and relevance of your
evaluations, and therefore you understand that any well-informed person
will completely ignore them. If that's true, why did you bother posting
them?

Many have not yet have that aha moment , when they realize this .

It's hardto shake off the believef that your personal experience of the
world is the world .

Probably just another sighted evaluation .

People don't think in therms of probability either .

In this situation what is most plausible to random or wrong output .

A simple audio system with completely understood engineering , testing
stuff that if there exist a difference is magnitudes ( Google magnitude
and logarithm ) below also well understood hearing treashold .

Vs .

The human brain ! A marvel that no one yet understand, but we understand
things like biases and some sort of self delusions etc.
So many things can go wrong be misunderstood or plainly our senses and
expectations form the wrong impression etc .
Enormously complex compared to a rock . Audio migth we'll be a rock
compared to the human brain .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Gazjam]

*The words you said indicate* that you don't believe that that listener
bias and placebo effects can ruin the accuracy and relevance of your
evaluations, and therefore you understand that any well-informed person
will completely ignore them. If that's true, why did you bother posting
them?

My words "indicate" huh?
You guys work too hard :p

Back to the Guy asking the original question...?

I'd suggest doing what I did and listening and comparing for yourself.
Different equipment can interact differently with different inputs and
theres a lot of variables at play. (Including your ears and how things
sound to you)

You cant "measure" music on a scope, only the equipment...and
measurements dont always dictate musical enjoyment.
Western Electric 300B Set valve amps for example.
-
"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let
chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wine."-

Its your system and your ears at the end of the day and your the one who
will be sitting down to listen, no-one else.

Anyway, I've done my bit here so I'll be off, but for the clever well
informed folks here I respect your opinion even if you dont respect
mine.
Been kicking around this forum here for a while (and others since 1996)
and the same circular arguments come up again and again. Not for me guys
sorry.
I recognise your argument but your telling a random stranger on the
Internet what he heard? Seriously?

I know digital kit (Ive designed and sold it here in the UK) but it
always goes back to the music for me.
Music is subjective, you cant measure or analyse what makes it good.

It just sounds good to you or it doesn't...and what else matters
really?
Frank says it better than me...a thought for the day. :)

-"Writing about music is like dancing about Architecture."-

21616


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[Mnyb]

.. but that does not really work , listen for yourself in sigthed
testings when you know what you are testing is what brougth us the whole
audiophile cottage industry/cult :P

As arny said earlier , using this method anything just anything you do
will sound different ( if there is a diffrence or not ) , like placing a
slice of bacon on the amplifier or just whatever tweak is the hot topic
this week .

You can weed out most of the chaff by some simple common sense (99% of
all tweaks) and then spend quality time with those who matters, let
reality into your personal perception bubble now and then ..

There is an objective reality outside of us self and our senses .

A simple fact that hearing difference does not prove that anything
really changed is that to hard to understand ? if its all imagined you
imagine something else next time you try something and probably upgrade
or change something for no good reason again.
I've done this for about 20 years myself "upgrading"...

It's silly to cite an first class mind like FZ in this debate .

I've would for example not even come over to check if you claimed that
you invented antigravity or cured cancer in you garden shed . That would
not be cloesed minded it would just be a good way to prioritise .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[kidstypike]

Why do people come on this forum and tell other people how *their*
system/cables sounds to *them*?

You'd never catch me doing it because my system sounds like shit.

I bought some really, really, really expensive cable (£14.99) and that
made it sound even worse, the fucking bastard rubbish ... :(



kidstypike

LMS on Raspberry Pi 3/max2play/HiFiBerry DAC+ > AVI DM5

1 x SB3 - 1 x Boom - 1 x (Squeezebox) Radio - 2 x Touch - 2 x Raspberry
Pi/piCorePlayer/HiFiBerry
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[Mnyb]

Post by kidstypike
Why do people come on this forum and tell other people how *their*
system/cables sounds to *them*?
You'd never catch me doing it because my system sounds like shit.
I bought some really, really, really expensive cable (£14.99) and that
made it sound even worse, the fucking bastard rubbish ... :(

No the emperor may like his new clothes :) if they are fine to him .

But they implicitly do factual claims like component X sounds different
than component Y , how it sounds to you is part of taste I would not be
to opinionated about that , but does it exist in the first place ? the
unspoken assumption is that it does because i can "hear" it.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Gazjam]

21618


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[Gazjam]

Every dogma has its day...
21618


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[Mnyb]

So audiophilism is our first technology based religion ? Intereting
perspective ( or does Scientology counts as tech based religion with its
sci-finorigin )

I make my offer on st atkinsons altar then :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[arnyk]

Every Dogma has its day...
21619

As is usual, you don't realize that this most clearly applies to you.

You are preaching the religion of golden earism. We are trying to inform
you about the relevant findings of science, and you think its all a
joke.

Joke is on you!


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[Gazjam]

Which part?

My friend,
Thats just your opinion.

Post by Mnyb
.. but that does not really work , listen for yourself in sigthed
testings when you know what you are testing is what brougth us the whole
audiophile cottage industry/cult :P
As arny said earlier , using this method anything just anything you do
will sound different ( if there is a diffrence or not ) , like placing a
slice of bacon on the amplifier or just whatever tweak is the hot topic
this week .
You can weed out most of the chaff by some simple common sense (99% of
all tweaks) and then spend quality time with those who matters, let
reality into your personal perception bubble now and then ..
There is an objective reality outside of us self and our senses .
A simple fact that hearing difference does not prove that anything
really changed is that to hard to understand ? if its all imagined you
imagine something else next time you try something and probably upgrade
or change something for no good reason again.
I've done this for about 20 years myself "upgrading"...
It's silly to cite an first class mind like FZ in this debate .
I've would for example not even come over to check if you claimed that
you invented antigravity or cured cancer in you garden shed . That would
not be cloesed minded it would just be a good way to prioritise .

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[arnyk]

Post by Gazjam
My friend,
Thats just your opinion, and your making a lot of assumptions. :)

Shows that you are totally ignorant of the true facts according to the
relevant science. So the smiley is appropriate, your post only makes
sense as a joke.

Post by Gazjam
The OP noticed differences in sound quality depending on how he
connected his equipment.

False. The OP noticed sound differences because:

(1) That is what he had been falsely educated to believe by commercial
interests who seek to profit based on other people's ignorance for
financial gain.

(2) There are methodologies that can control the experimental biases and
false influences in an experiment like these, but no doubt he had no
clue what they were.

Post by Gazjam
I did too, so thought it would be helpful to share my experience,
especially as mine was directly related to his question.
Seems fair enough to me.

It's just the blind leading the blind and publicly abusing those who
have clear sight of what is really happening.


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[Julf]

Post by Gazjam
Frank says it better than me...a thought for the day.

I see your FZ and raise you a Carl Sagan: "don't be so open-minded that
your brains fall out".



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[drmatt]

(This is the most polite thread on the matter for a long time...)

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk




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[drmatt]

Ah yes, now this thread has turned the way they all turn....

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk




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[Gazjam]

Yeah..
The jokes really on me.
You win.


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[Julf]

So...
Im preaching and getting unvolved in "online abuse"...
Yeah..
The jokes really on me.
You win.

Don't be silly.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
Ah yes, now this thread has turned the way they all turn....

Abusing others is a natural consequence of being a Golden Ear.


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[Gazjam]

Post by arnyk
Abusing others is a natural consequence of being a Golden Ear.

And they say Americans dont do irony... ;)

Arny,
Theres better ways to enjoy your retirement as Im sure you know.

Chill out, put on your favourite music on a good system...or any system
really...cant tell the difference in sound quality without measuring the
kit with a scope and double blind testing.
Only problem is you cant SEE to change the CD over with your eyes shut?

But after having it pointed out to me your right...
I'm selling all my gear now and buying one of these. 😜
21634
Serious question for you?
Would you expect it to measure worse or better than the Transporter?

And would your expectations of differences between the two systems
affect the outcome of the test?

(I'm thinking of Heisenberg's "Uncertainty if this Guys actually
Trolling? Principle"... which states you cant measure the speed and
position of the BSh*t coming from someones mouth without affecting the
outcome)

Guess measurements are out the window on this one and I'll just have to
listen what your saying Arny and the tone of how your saying it.
Us Brits do sarcasm quite well :)

All meant in good humour, dont take yourself so seriously man.
Peace.


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[edwardthern]

Post by Gazjam
And they say Americans dont do irony... ;)
Arny,
Theres better ways to enjoy your retirement as Im sure you know.
Chill out, put on your favourite music on a good system...or any system
really...cant tell the difference in sound quality without measuring the
kit with a scope and double blind testing.
Only problem is you cant SEE to change the CD over with your eyes shut?
But after having it pointed out to me your right...
I'm selling all my gear now and buying one of these. :p
21634
Serious question for you?
Would you expect it to measure worse or better than the Transporter?
And would your expectations of differences between the two systems
affect the outcome of the test?
(I'm thinking of Heisenberg's "Uncertainty if this Guys actually
trolling?" Principle... which states you cant measure the speed and
position of the BSh*t coming from someones mouth without affecting the
outcome)
So measurements are out the window on this one Arny and I'll just have
to subjectively listen what your saying and the tone of how your saying
it.
Us Brits do sarcasm quite well :)
All meant in good humour friend.
So long and thanks for all the fish.

That Desktop system as "Audiophile BLUE" lights, so it MUST sound
awesome!!!!


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[arnyk]

Post by Gazjam
And they say Americans dont do irony... ;)
Arny,
Theres better ways to enjoy your retirement as Im sure you know.
Chill out, put on your favourite music on a good system...or any system
really...cant tell the difference in sound quality without measuring the
kit with a scope and double blind testing.
Only problem is you cant SEE to change the CD over with your eyes shut?

Comments like "Chill out" are often interpreted as "Talking down". If I
haven't learned how to chill in 7 decades, it would be pretty hopeless.
If you understand the application of DBTs to audio you'd know that the
big message that they deliver is a hearty "Chill out".

Post by Gazjam
Would you expect it to measure worse or better than the Transporter?

The Transporter DAC is a very fine piece of work the AKM AK4396
multi-bit Sigma-Delta reference DAC - likely to measure better than a
very high proportion of the audio DACs in service or on the market.

AKM AK4396 - a piece with about 120 dB SNR
-http://www.akm.com/akm/en/file/datasheet/AK4396VF.pdf vast overkill
for even the highest quality audio.

Post by Gazjam
And would your expectations of differences between the two systems
affect the outcome of the test?

Not a proper comparison - the Transpoerter is a digital musical player,
and the GPX is a complete system. I think we all know GPX's position in
the audio food chain - bottom feeders. However, good DAC chips have
gotten so cheap that it may well be based on a DAC chip that is
sonically indistinguishable from the best. It no doubt measures far
worse, but measurements aren't at all the same as listening. Listening
has a clear and present law of diminishing returns, and measurements,
much less so.


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[Gazjam]

*Comments like "Chill out" are often interpreted as "Talking down*". If
I haven't learned how to chill in 7 decades, it would be pretty
hopeless. If you understand the application of DBTs to audio you'd know
that the big message that they deliver is a hearty "Chill out".

*So are:* -(and I quote)-...

"*Shows that you are totally ignorant of the true facts...*"
and
"*Your post only makes sense as a joke...*"
Just sayin' Arny?

Hopefully a gentleman of your experience understands where Im coming
from?


Frank Zappa fan here, but this time Thumper's Father says it best:

Thanks for the spec sheet on the AKM AK4396 Arny, had seen extracts from
it but not the whole document.
Interesting from an engineering perspective, shows that implementation
of the Dac chip is important too?

Lots of more modern Dac chips that read better "on paper" but on worse
sounding budget kit.

Anyways... :)


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[Mnyb]

Is not implementation "everything" ? A chip does not perform in
isolation , the whole total design is what makes it perform .

And from what I read the TP designed to to make god use of this chip .

And anyone can notice how many other DAC's often brags about what chip
they are using as marketing ?

Circuit design and PCM board design is real engineering.

That's why OP-amp rolling and random capacitor swaps some DIY
audiophiles do don't work , you usually manage to offset a very
carefully done design .



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[Mnyb]

Sorry , I forgot to add the DAC chip must have some qualities to begin
with .



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[edwardthern]

Post by Mnyb
Sorry , I forgot to add the DAC chip must have some qualities to begin
with .

This statement takes away your whole previous post and contradicts your
past rhetoric.

Yes the DAC chips do have their own qualities to begin with, which in
listening tests makes them sound different.


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[Mnyb]

Post by edwardthern
This statement takes away your whole previous post and contradicts your
past rhetoric.
Yes the DAC chips do have their own qualities to begin with, which in
listening tests makes them sound different.

Thta was not what i meant ;) by qualities i mean resonaböe performance
like the typical better than 100dB snr etc you can have today,



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[edwardthern]

Post by Mnyb
Thta was not what i meant ;) by qualities i mean resonaböe performance
like the typical better than 100dB snr etc you can have today,

No no no.....no back tracking allowed.


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[arnyk]

Post by edwardthern
This statement takes away your whole previous post and contradicts your
past rhetoric.
Yes the DAC chips do have their own qualities to begin with, which in
listening tests makes them sound different.

(A) The above statement is highly dependent on what kind of "listening
tests" you are talking about. If the so-called listening test is just
an audiophile audition, then validity is out the door because of the
well-known failings of the so-called test.

If the listening test is:

(1) Level matched
(2) Time synched
(3) Bias controlled (usually that means double blind)

then its findings might actually be interesting to knowledgeable
people.

(B) there is also the matter of the vague phrase "...their own
qualities..." Every distinct object in this universe has unique
qualities, if no other than that it is in a unique place or that it has
a unique velocity. Obviously, some unique qualities are more important
than others. Based on current and historic scientific knowledge about
the sensitivity of human ears, we know for sure that many DACs do not
differ from others in terms of their signal processing accuracy in ways
that are audible to anybody, even people with the very best hearing.

When someone starts pontificating about the differences in terms of
sound quality of DACs known to be practically perfect in terms of sound
quality, we know we are listening to personal fantasies and not
knowledge that has any actual meaning other than entertainment based on
the weird and baseless things that some people will say.


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[drmatt]

And so it continues. Just, stop, for once.




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[arnyk]

Well, this thread is going nowhere fast, and accelerating.

Happens all the time when a Golden Ear shows up and starts bragging
about how sensitive his ears are, based only on his say-so.

He wins if he can only shout the loudest.


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[Fizbin]

Post by arnyk
He wins if he can only shout the loudest.

It worked for the future president of the United States.


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[drmatt]

Post by Fizbin
It worked for the future president of the United States.

Also: lie the hardest.

And they laughed at brexit...




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[drmatt]

I wonder how you get to be a moderator .... the nuke button is calling.




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[edwardthern]

About us Golden Eared People....well not everyone can have ears of gold.


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[Mnyb]

Post by edwardthern
About us Golden Eared People....well not everyone can have ears of gold.

But you can , just imagine that you have them and your set ,thats how it
usually works it's a self apionted position , no forms to fill in just
be it :D



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[arnyk]

Post by edwardthern
About us Golden Eared People....well not everyone can have ears of gold.

When subjected to a scientific test, almost all self-proclaimed golden
ears turn out to be made of cardboard.

Look up "Kruger-Dunning".


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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
I wonder how you get to be a moderator .... the nuke button is calling.

How would you use those powers as a moderator?


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[drmatt]

Can we linguistically distinguish between "DACs" as in integrated
circuits, awaiting soldering to a board with supporting electronics,
which alone have no inherent sound (unless badly designed or faulty) and
"DACs" as in consumer electronics products that have all sorts of other
reasons why they might sound a little different.




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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
Can we linguistically distinguish between "DACs" as in integrated
circuits, awaiting soldering to a board with supporting electronics,
which alone have no inherent sound (unless badly designed or faulty) and
"DACs" as in consumer electronics products that have all sorts of other
reasons why they might sound a little different.

The difference you suggest is generally either trivial (in the sense
that its no surprise for factual reasons) or non existent.

To put it in other words, both DAC chips and DAC-based audio components
have all sorts of reasons why they may sound different, but as a matter
of published scientific data, scientific data that I've gathered
personally, and DBT listening tests that I've participated in as either
listener and/or test organizer, it rarely happens.

When it does happen which is I repeat relatively rare, it is often
obviously intentional and publicized. For example a typical so-called
NOS DACs are obviously intentionally designed to sound colored because
the DAC was designed to be composed of two chips, but one of the chips
is left out to obtain the observed coloration (a high frequency
roll-off).

The vast majority of digital audio gear that is actually sold (probably
99%+ based on numbers sold) is sonically transparent - utterly audibly
faithful to its source. Most audiophiles go through their lives
*upgrading* one sonically transparent DAC to another, which is obviously
futile.

99+% of people's perceptions that DACs or DAC based gear sounds
different is based on placebo effects and personal bias.


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[drmatt]

Ok, maybe you're right and lots of people are wrong. One thought. What
can explain the phenomenon of multiple independent reviewers/listeners
attributing the same type of character to a given DAC then? I really
don't believe there is some giant conspiracy here, with a cheat sheet
being sent out for the reviewers to plagiarise on each product.

So, I am still convinced that I can tell the difference between the DACs
I have tried out.

I accept there are many reasons why i might perceive differences that
are not in fact there, not least of which is how my blood pressure is on
a given day.. but even so I believe I can reasonably reliably detect
longer term differences once I've "averaged out" individual listening
sessions as it were. (For the occasions where I get to do an extended
trial, that is..) I accept this is just me trusting my senses.. and yet
I am not confident if I would in a well controlled dbt. Mainly because
I've done sighted tests using some types of material and not been able
to distinguish. (Where I've not been able to distinguish I've said so.)




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[Julf]

Post by drmatt
Ok, maybe you're right and lots of people are wrong. One thought. What
can explain the phenomenon of multiple independent reviewers/listeners
attributing the same type of character to a given DAC then? I really
don't believe there is some giant conspiracy here, with a cheat sheet
being sent out for the reviewers to plagiarise on each product.

One component is the horoscope effect - statements that are vague enough
that the reader will interpret them to fit the appropriate situation.
The other is groupthink (rather than conspiracy). Reviewers do read each
other's reviews.

Post by drmatt
Long term though, I've always picked it up. So far. Still deluded? ;)

Confident enough to help figure out how to test that?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[drmatt]

Post by Julf
Confident enough to help figure out how to test that?

Only if it will shut a few people up. ;)

On the other hand it would save me a few quid if I can't tell, so if
it's doable, yes I am more than willing to do a trial. :)




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[Julf]

Post by drmatt
On the other hand it would save me a few quid if I can't tell, so if
it's doable, yes I am more than willing to do a trial. :)

So just a few logistical issues to crack... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
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edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
Ok, maybe you're right and lots of people are wrong.

No maybe about it.

Myself and people like me have had this situation under control for over
30 years.

The powers that be in high end audio don't want to face me because of
the proven adverse effects on them:

http://www.stereophile.com/news/050905debate/#HiClge3a4TQTAOzi.97

Post by drmatt
One thought. What can explain the phenomenon of multiple independent
reviewers/listeners attributing the same type of character to a given
DAC then?

They aren't truly independent. They've been reading each other's
propaganda for up to 40 years.

Post by drmatt
I really don't believe there is some giant conspiracy here, with a cheat
sheet being sent out for the reviewers to plagiarise on each product.

Clear case of not seeing the forest for the trees. To see the trees, you
have to change your viewing point.

Post by drmatt
So, I am still convinced that I can tell the difference between the DACs
I have tried out.

Clear case of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Post by drmatt
I accept there are many reasons why i might perceive differences that
are not in fact there, not least of which is how my blood pressure is on
a given day.. but even so I believe I can reasonably reliably detect
longer term differences once I've "averaged out" individual listening
sessions as it were. (For the occasions where I get to do an extended
trial, that is..) I accept this is just me trusting my senses.. and yet,
I am not confident if I would be able to in a well controlled dbt.
Mainly because I've done sighted tests using some types of source music
and not been able to distinguish. (Note that where I've not been able to
distinguish during a demo, I've said so.)
Long term though, I've always picked it up. So far. Still deluded? ;)

The results of inherently flawed experiments. I've revealed the secrets
about how to do it right, very few ever do.


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[drmatt]

Post by arnyk
Clear case of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
The results of inherently flawed experiments. I've revealed the secrets
about how to do it right, very few ever do.

Lol, clear case narcissistic personality disorder? ;)

Just like any good sceptic I don't just believe what any random asshat
on a forum tells me is the truth, so if you'll excuse while I continue
to ask questions...

Not even experiments, so yes, flawed as experiments no doubt. Also - I
didn't say "all DACs" sound different.




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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
Lol, clear case narcissistic personality disorder? ;)

From this I deduce that you are so unfamiliar with the findings of
science that it all is like madness to you. Reason why is that the
issues you are railing against are settled in the world of science, and
here is the best thing you can say about it.

Post by drmatt
Just like any good sceptic I don't just believe what any random asshat
on a forum tells me is the truth, so if you'll excuse while I continue
to ask questions...

Asshat. Interesting term.

Nobody ever educated you about the dangers of biting the hand that
feeds, I take it?

Post by drmatt
Not even experiments, so yes, flawed as experiments no doubt. Also - I
didn't say "all DACs" sound different.

Irrelevant: I never said you said that all DACs sound different.

Just another evasion of an opportunity to learn on your part.


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[drmatt]

Post by arnyk
Asshat. Interesting term.
Nobody ever educated you about the dangers of biting the hand that
feeds, I take it?

I don't remember being fed by anyone. And .. uh, did you just assume
that was aimed at you?

Post by arnyk
Just another evasion of an opportunity to learn on your part.

This type of learning just isn't -productive-...

People can read journal papers and articles all day long, and it still
doesn't mean they have a metacognitive weakness because they want to
"see" the answer for themselves before deciding, does it?




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[arnyk]

I don't remember being fed by anyone.\

If you profess to be untrainable, then that makes things simpler.

This type of learning just isn't -productive-...

Depends who you are. If you shilling for the high end audio industry,
then no, it is not productive.

People can read journal papers and articles all day long, and it still
doesn't mean they have a metacognitive weakness because they want to
"see" the answer for themselves before deciding, does it?

I'll take that as the voice of experience.

In plain language, people read what they want to read.


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[Wombat]

Post by drmatt
Ok, maybe you're right and lots of people are wrong. One thought. What
can explain the phenomenon of multiple independent reviewers/listeners
attributing the same type of character to a given DAC then? I really
don't believe there is some giant conspiracy here, with a cheat sheet
being sent out for the reviewers to plagiarise on each product...

It really is the same pattern as with "abductees"



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[Julf]

'ScienceDaily: Half of people believe fake facts, 'remember' events that
never happened'
(https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161207101433.htm)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[arnyk]

Post by Julf
'ScienceDaily: Half of people believe fake facts, 'remember' events that
never happened'
(https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161207101433.htm)

Just half?

I think we pretty well blew that one in the last US election. Both the
Republicans and Democrats were putting out reams of false news articles
about the other side - maybe 90% of all purported news was easily found
to be false.


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[Julf]

Both the Republicans and Democrats were putting out reams of false news
articles about the other side - maybe 90% of all purported news was
easily found to be false.

But why go trough the trouble of verifying, when you can just trust you
gut (or ears?)...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[drmatt]

Interesting response. So we get i) an insult ii) a conspiracy theory and
iii) a dismissal.

Yeah, you win. For the sake of everyone I choose not to take part in
this game any longer.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk




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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
Interesting response. So we get i) an insult ii) a conspiracy theory and
iii) a dismissal.

If you find the treatment one gets for being obstinately anti-science
and anti-reason undesirable, you could consider learning a little about
both. However as I read your spew, you've already rejected that.


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[drmatt]

Lalala not listening .. too busy denying climate change and telling
people black is white. (Not looking forward to my next pedestrian
crossing.)




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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
Lalala not listening .. too busy denying climate change and telling
people black is white. (Not looking forward to my next pedestrian
crossing.)

Most people try to not make posts that prove themselves to be lies. I
guess you're special.


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[edwardthern]

Reality Check.

The greater part of the Audiophile world [people who have purchased
cables] claim to hear a difference. You people represent a very small
part of the whole who 'do not' hear a difference.
We the Audiophiles, acknowledge aspects of reality [in the form of
sound] that you do not. Instead of accepting the fact that your senses
can not pick up certain aspects of reality...you get mad
and insult, badger, and accuse the MAJORITY of being crazy.

Yes you 1% are sane and us 99% are crazy.....LMAO!!!


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[Julf]

Post by edwardthern
Reality Check.
The greater part of the Audiophile world [people who have purchased
cables] claim to hear a difference. You people represent a very small
part of the whole who 'do not' hear a difference.
We the Audiophiles, acknowledge aspects of reality [in the form of
sound] that you do not. Instead of accepting the fact that your senses
can not pick up certain aspects of reality...you get mad
and insult, badger, and accuse the MAJORITY of being crazy.
Yes you 1% are sane and us 99% are crazy.....LMAO!!!

Yes, reality check: In medicine, placebos work for 98% of the
population. Does that make those who know it is just a sugar pill
"crazy"?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[edwardthern]

Post by Julf
Yes, reality check: In medicine, placebos work for 98% of the
population. Does that make those who know it is just a sugar pill
"crazy"?

So I go to an asylum and the people there say those 99% outside are
crazy.....

Okay settle down and take your med...


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[arnyk]

Post by edwardthern
Reality Check.
The greater part of the Audiophile world [people who have purchased
cables] claim to hear a difference.

False claim here is that if you have not purchased overpriced cables
based on fraudulent technology, you are not an audiophile.

Like I said in the other post, I think that all audiophiles are not
necessarily idiots, just because a minority are.

Post by edwardthern
You people represent a very small part of the whole who 'do not' hear a
difference.

That's where you are wrong and are again exposing your lack of knowledge
about some of the more subtle issues related to audio.

It is true that only a minority of audiophiles have enough advanced
education to know about placebo effects. You are in fact in the process
of giving us more proof of that.

Just because a person is well informed about audio and knows about
placebo effects, and knows that fraudulent cables are bogus, does not
mean that the knowledge gives them immunity to placebo effects. Placebo
effects are a universal part of the human experience. Therefore, we
experience that fancy audio cables sound different if you are naive and
uninformed about doing listening tests related to them.

If you are stupid, you can't act smart; but if you are smart, the option
of acting stupid is available to you.

I'd cite the professional, peer-reviewed papers related to this, but
based on your behavior in this thread, they are way over your head.
I'll bet you have never read a peer reviewed paper in a professional
journal of any kind in your life and understood it. Way about most
people's reading level.


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