Benchmark vs. CIAudio VDA-2

[kphinney]

2pm EST, Saturday June 16

I just bought a Channel Islands Audio DAC and a friend of mine is on
his way over with a Benchmark DAC1 for a little comparison. I'd like
You to tell us what comparisons to run and we'll report back with our
impressions.

Many here are proponents of the DAC1 so here's the unit we're comparing
to and my current setup:

CI Audio VDA-2 with VAC-1 Upgrade Power Supply
"...coaxial SPDIF, then fed to the CS8416 24 bit/192k low jitter input
receiver, then to the Burr Brown PCM1794 balanced/current output DAC."

JoLida 102B Amp
2 matched pairs J J Tesla EL84's.
Electro-Harmonix 12AX7A pre-amp tubes.

Omega 6 Grande
Full range Fostex FE 167E driver without crossover.
95dB sensitivity 50-20KHz frequency response.

[opaqueice]

One suggestion - after listening to the two for a while to get a sense
of the difference, try listening blind. Make sure the volumes are
matched.

[JJZolx]

2pm EST, Saturday June 16I'd like You to tell us what comparisons to run

Here's a really wild idea... how about listening to the same music
through both of them?

[kphinney]

Funny guy. I thought we'd just weigh both of them and maybe see how hot
they become if left in the sun.
--
kphinney

SB3
CIAudio DVA-2
JoLida 102B
Omega Grand 6's & B&W 602 S2's

PowerMac
Zhaolu D2.5
AKG K501
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[JJZolx]

Post by kphinney
Funny guy. I thought we'd just weigh both of them and maybe see how hot
they become if left in the sun.

You could also take some measurements on a scope and it would give you
just about as much information on how they sound.

[kphinney]

It's pretty close to a tie. We decided to write some of this down
before running out for another bottle of wine. The VDA-2 is in the
lead but we have agreed to listen to both on G's system before we
declare any consummate winner.
We've run the gambit from Norah Jones to The Cult, Handle to Ozzy.
Thumping bass rattle the windows to whisper quiet "unplug the
refrigerator in the next room." Hands down, with the present system
the VDA-2 shines in one area - quiet listening. At low volumes it
seems that the DAC1 isn't as synergistic with my little tube amp.
Crisp vocals on Stephen Stills "Stills Alone" (The Ballad Of Hollis
Brown) were unobtainable with the Benchmark at low volumes. By low
volumes I do not mean the type of listening you do to keep the
neighbors happy. I mean the type of listening you do if you'd like to
sustain a happy marriage with a sleeping wife at 1am in a medium size
apartment. Think "whisper".

VDA-2: Guitar plucks resonated as if they were live. Stills' guttural
and sometimes raspy voice made me want to clear my own throat.
DAC1: More muted as if the strings had been dampened, and his voice
lacked the throat of realism.

After realizing the low volume phenom we listened to all of our picks
at quiet levels and found a big gap between the two DACs with the
CIAudio coming out ahead. (Thank god someone suggested we listened to
the same music on BOTH DAC's - never would have thought of that
myself.)

The rest is pretty unremarkable. The DAC1 and VDA-2 with PS upgrade
sound very close to identical when the SB3 is used as a transport on my
low watt system. I'm happy I made my purchase. G insists that we
compare on his system and I agree. I'll post more when we do. Right
now it's another bottle of red (Gala Rouge, Pinot Noir is a super
bargain and goes well with both DACs) and a side of Allison Krauss.
This gives me another idea: Anyone else in the Boston area want to
plug and play components?
--
kphinney

SB3
CIAudio DVA-2
JoLida 102B
Omega Grand 6's & B&W 602 S2's

PowerMac
Zhaolu D2.5
AKG K501
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[Ron F.]

Post by kphinney
2pm EST, Saturday June 16
I just bought a Channel Islands Audio DAC and a friend of mine is on
his way over with a Benchmark DAC1 for a little comparison. I'd like
You to tell us what comparisons to run and we'll report back with our
impressions.

The VDA-2 DAC needs a few days of burn-in before it reaches its final
sound. I know many people don't believe in burn-in, and I am not sure I
do either, but Dusty told me to burn it in for a few days, before
critical listening begins. I listened to it for a few hours after I
unpacked mine, and then I let it run for several days while I listened
to something else. When I came back to it - it had improved.

It is a great DAC with a VERY low noise floor.

-Ron
--
Ron F.

*Squeezebox setup:* wireless SB3 -> CI Audio VDA.2 DAC + VAC.1 PSU
*Main rig:* NAD 7600 + NAD 2600A -> Phase Tech PC-6.5 speakers
*Headphone rig:* Headroom Max -> Sennheiser 650s
*Music Server:* Nano-ITX computer running SlimCD + 750 GByte HDD ->
Netgear wireless router
*Other stuff:* NAD C542 CDP, NAD 6300 Tape, Monster 5100 Power
conditioner, Outlaw Audio cables
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[Ron F.]

kphinney,

Actually, if you are looking for some tests to run, then consider
downloading the 24-bit 1 kHz sine wave files: -100, -110, and -120
dBFS, from http://www.rme-audio.com/english/download/audtest.htm.

Make very sure to set your SB3 in "Repeat One," so it does not move on
to play another track after one of these finished:) Otherwise - you
will be terribly sorry. Keep a finger on the "Power Off" button on your
remote as well, in case there is an accident.

This is a fairly brutal test of your system's noise floor. You should
be able to hear the -100 dBFS tone without having to turn the volume up
too much higher than your normal listening level. The -110dB file is
tougher, and the volume will have to be turned up considerably. In my
system, the -120dB file sounds like it is about equal with the
background noise floor, and beginning to drop down into it.

I am wondering which DAC holds up better in this test!

-Ron
--
Ron F.

*Squeezebox setup:* wireless SB3 -> CI Audio VDA.2 DAC + VAC.1 PSU
*Main rig:* NAD 7600 + NAD 2600A -> Phase Tech PC-6.5 speakers
*Headphone rig:* Headroom Max -> Sennheiser 650s
*Music Server:* Nano-ITX computer running SlimCD + 750 GByte HDD ->
Netgear wireless router
*Other stuff:* NAD C542 CDP, NAD 6300 Tape, Monster 5100 Power
conditioner, Outlaw Audio cables
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[kphinney]

Post by Ron F.
kphinney,
Actually, if you are looking for some tests to run, then consider
downloading the 24-bit 1 kHz sine wave files: -100, -110, and -120
dBFS, from http://www.rme-audio.com/english/download/audtest.htm.
...
-Ron

Excellent Ron. I'll try it out when we do part 2 of the test this
weekend.
--
kphinney

SB3
CIAudio DVA-2
JoLida 102B
Omega Grand 6's & B&W 602 S2's

PowerMac
Zhaolu D2.5
AKG K501
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[kphinney]

We're going to pick up this little comparison this evening. This time
using Geof's system. More specs on that later (as I'm not exactly sure
what he has set up). We'll be running Ron F's suggestions for testing
the sound floor and Geof's SlimServer selections of choice. (If we get
really silly we may even listen to the same music through both DAC's as
the Awe-Inspiring JJZolx suggested.)

Feel free to chime in with anything you'd like to hear a report on.
--
kphinney

SB3
CIAudio DVA-2
JoLida 102B
Omega Grand 6's & B&W 602 S2's

PowerMac
Zhaolu D2.5
AKG K501
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[kphinney]

Enlisted the service of our wives and between the four of us we could
not choose a consummate winner between the VDA-2 and DAC-1. Help me
out a bit - why is the Benchmark so well received here?
I don't ask this to start a flame war or ruffle any feathers. I'm
genuinely interested in what owners & listeners of the DAC-1 have to
say about their choice.
--
kphinney

SB3
Krell KAV 250CD
CIAudio DVA-2
JoLida 102B
Omega Grand 6's & B&W 602 S2's

PowerMac
Zhaolu D2.5
AKG K501
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[JJZolx]

Post by kphinney
Enlisted the service of our wives and between the four of us we could
not choose a consummate winner between the VDA-2 and DAC-1. Help me
out a bit - why is the Benchmark so well received here?
I don't ask this to start a flame war or ruffle any feathers. I'm
genuinely interested in what owners & listeners of the DAC-1 have to
say about their choice.

That's it?

What were the differences between the two?

[kphinney]

The Benchmark weighed more.

Only kidding. as mentioned the synergy between the VDA-2 and my tube
system was very good.
My original comments hold true for both my system in the first round of
testing and Geof's Rotel amp and I-Bens speakers in the 2nd round:
A low noise floor was evident in both units - an improvement over the
stock SB3 analog out. While both units and systems sounded well
rounded and revealing the Benchmark seemed a bit more flat, or perhaps
more realistic depending on the listeners POV.
Musical instruments in the low range were a bit more bleached running
on my system with the Benchmark but this was not evident with the
Rotel/I-Bens - it could also be the effect of doing the comparison a
week apart and the VDA-2 is that much further along in its break-in
period.

I've seen this mentioned in other threads and I did my own test to
compare Optical-Out vs. Coaxial between the SB3 and VDA-2. Absolutely
no difference was discernible.

While this is a Squeezebox forum I'll mention one more comparison;
Neither unit improved the listening experience when used in conjunction
with my 7 year old Krell transport.
--
kphinney

SB3
Krell KAV 250CD
CIAudio DVA-2
JoLida 102B
Omega Grand 6's & B&W 602 S2's

PowerMac
Zhaolu D2.5
AKG K501
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[Pat Farrell]

Post by kphinney
why is the Benchmark so well received here?

it is, IMHO, a good piece of gear. It is not new, I've had mine probably
three years. I would expect something designed recently to be both
comparable and a little cheaper.

I no longer use my DAC-1, I use my Transporter. But if I had not
bought the Transporter, I'd still be using the DAC-1.

[SatoriGFX]

Help me out a bit - why is the Benchmark so well received here?

My guess? Hype. I'm not saying it's not a quality product. but I do
find it interesting, reading through various forums, that more than a
few people who have tried the DAC-1 and the VDA-2 chose the latter. I
have seen few posts where the listener chose the DAC-1 over the VDA-2
(maybe I missed them, blinded by my love of the VDA-2 though).

I find the VDA-2 to be very natural sounding, detailed without being
analytical, quiet and musical and I'm still using one that has not been
updated to the latest spec (too lazy to send it in for the free update
right now) which supposedly lowers the noise floor even more and
improves linearity.

Adam.

[melomaniac]

how do people feel about the predecessor, the Channel Islands Audio
VDA-1 DAC? is it an improvement over the analog out of the SB3?

I am trying to decide between an inexpensive DAC like this one, and an
upgraded power supply. which would make more of a difference?

[kphinney]

Post by melomaniac
how do people feel about the predecessor, the Channel Islands Audio
VDA-1 DAC? is it an improvement over the analog out of the SB3?
I am trying to decide between an inexpensive DAC like this one, and an
upgraded power supply. which would make more of a difference?

What works best for you (or me) may not be the preference of someone
else. I recently sold my Meridian 556 DAC to someone who really liked
the sound of his Meridian 508 CD player. For him the sound of this DAC
was perfect. I to preferred the Meridian over the CIAudio but 1) my
wife likes the VDA better and 2) the Meridian is very large and I'm
short on space.

Think about where you want your money to go and you may find that other
upgrades are more worthwhile than a DAC. I wouldn't jump on the DAC
band-wagon if I needed to upgrade my speakers for example. The
internal DAC in the SB3 is pretty good. A DAC should be used to
compliment your system. The VDA-2 with my tube amp and Fostex drivers
deliver a very good sound - to me.

But, to quote CIAudio's website: "Order factory direct today on our
30-day satisfaction guarantee* and get FREE shipping**"
--
kphinney

SB3
Krell KAV 250CD
CIAudio DVA-2
JoLida 102B
Omega Grand 6's & B&W 602 S2's

PowerMac
Zhaolu D2.5
AKG K501
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[corbey]

Post by melomaniac
I am trying to decide between an inexpensive DAC like this one, and an
upgraded power supply. which would make more of a difference?

I have the SB3 power supply plugged into a PSAudio P300 power plant
(not quite the same as upgrading the power supply, I know), and it did
seem to noticeably lower the noise level. Blacker backgrounds, and all
that.

However, the difference was much less than when I added the VDA-2 DAC,
which really brought the sound of the SB3 up to the level of a high-end
CD player.
--
corbey

My two-channel system:
- SB-3 through a CIAudio VDA-2 DAC (and using Nokia N800 as a remote)
- Sony SCD-1 CD/SACD player
- WyeTech Labs Jade tubed preamp
- Chord SPM 1200C power amp
- Basis 2001 turntable w/ Graham Arm & Lyra Helikon cartridge
- Klyne phono stage
- Proac 2.5 speakers
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[kphinney]

Post by kphinney
2pm EST, Saturday June 16
I just bought a Channel Islands Audio DAC and a friend of mine is on
his way over with a Benchmark DAC1 for a little comparison. I'd like
You to tell us what comparisons to run and we'll report back with our
impressions.
Many here are proponents of the DAC1 so here's the unit we're comparing
CI Audio VDA-2 with VAC-1 Upgrade Power Supply
"...coaxial SPDIF, then fed to the CS8416 24 bit/192k low jitter input
receiver, then to the Burr Brown PCM1794 balanced/current output DAC."
JoLida 102B Amp
2 matched pairs J J Tesla EL84's.
Electro-Harmonix 12AX7A pre-amp tubes.
Omega 6 Grande
Full range Fostex FE 167E driver without crossover.
95dB sensitivity 50-20KHz frequency response.

Two Years Later... The Saga Continues....

My good old bud G picked up some cigars in an less than acceptable
place located close to the equator and decided to pop over to listen to
an unbelievably old LP he dug out of his closet. Me, being the only one
he knew with an adoration for both cigars (new) and useable phonograph
(old), decided to spend a weekend-night listening to music while my
wife was out of town.
Before coming over we decided that he'd best bring his Benchmark DAC1
for a 2 year rematch/tiebreaker against my CI Audio VDA-2 & VAC-1.

Well honestly, the cigars were more interesting. I can now tell a
cigar rolled by the underpaid relative of a far flung Florida immigrant
vs that of a Virginia machine produced roll better than I can tell the
difference between the CIAudio gear and the Benchmark gear.
It just so happened that we had a few additional speakers to try out
this time and our listening room was much improved as I am demo'ing
Zu's Druid as well as a B&W 802d. ((Yeah, I know - I said I'd never
go back to B&W after buying my Omega 6 Grande's, but I couldn't pass
the deal up. Anyway, they didn't last. The B&W's. For the heck of it
I pulled out a pair of JBL 4-way 1972 speakers that just suck juice and
the B&W's were only comparable but 2000x more expensive....))

Benchmark vs CIAudio. With 2 years of burn-in the results are the
same: we both give the VDA-2 and upgraded PS a 5 out of 5, whereas the
Benchmark gets a 4.5 out of 5.

Price: Benchmark DAC1 vs Channel Islands Audio and upgraded PS - about
the same.
Noise floor: Black as night on both.
High range: Slight edge to CIAudio. Let me explain - medium volume
Stephen Stills "Just Roll Tape" the Benchmark cracked. It didn't
handle his loose and floppy playing clean on the high end. It sounded
like I needed to turn the volume down to prevent a crackle that was
'always almost there'. CIA sounded very good. As a tie breaker I
pulled out my 180 gram LP thru a Parasound & Rega phono and, ... well,
honestly the LP sounded better but no clearer than the CI Audio, but
very much better than the Benchmark. We followed this up with another
trifecta: Jackson Brown "Running on Empty", Track 1 - "Running On"
Benchmark - opposite effect - it was flat on vocals. CIA - just fine.
LP - A tad better.

Low end: No difference. Tight bass. We spent two hours on it - at
least. An entire Roger Waters DVD-A ripped to ALAC and switching back
and forth between the Benchmark, CIAudio and Rotel CD player (sans
DAC). Slight edge to the Rotel but NOT on the low end. All three were
spot on exact. Unfortunately I didn't have an LP to cue up, but that's
not really the point anyway; since both DACs were the same why
introduce yet a 3rd format.

[boxerboy]

I have the Channel Islands DAC and was wondering if the DAC-1 would be
an upgrade. It seems that it would be no better than an even swap.

Do you think any of new more expensive DAC's would come close to the
performance of a transporter?

Jim

[kphinney]

Post by boxerboy
I have the Channel Islands DAC and was wondering if the DAC-1 would be
an upgrade. It seems that it would be no better than an even swap.
Do you think any of new more expensive DAC's would come close to the
performance of a transporter?
Jim

I can only guess that an un-modded Squeezebox will never sound as good
as a Transporter. And by the time you reach a modified SB that does
parallel the TP in sound quality you've already surpassed it in price.

SB was designed to get your tunes off of your computer and onto your
basic to respectably high quality audio system.
TP was designed as an audiophile device with 24 bit resolution and 96k
sample rates and other specs that raise it far above that of the SB:
World Clock capabilities, the AK4396 ‘Miracle DAC’, etc.

But don't kid yourself and think that the TP will make your music sound
better all by itself.
A good clean power supply and high quality speaker cables may do more
for you. It all depends on your system. I'd love to try out the
Transporter in my system *** and if anyone is in the Boston/South Shore
area I'll make sure I have plenty of snacks and wine if you want to
bring a TP over.***

[duke43j]

I don't have a transporter, but I can bring the wine and snacks if you
can show me the difference between the SB3 analog out vs. an external
DAC.
I've been thinking about springing for an external DAC for quite a
while, but I am not sure if there will be $1K worth of improvement. I've
read all these great reviews of the Benchmark, so I was leaning toward
it. But the technology has improved since it first came out, and I would
think there must be equivalent (or better) DACs on the market at a lower
price.

My system is -- SB3 or Rega Apollo CDP => VTL 2.5 pre => Classe CA-2100
amp => Thiel CS2.4s.

I like the sound of the Rega CDP, but I like the convenience of the
SB3. I would love to have both.

[Phil Leigh]

Post by duke43j
I don't have a transporter, but I can bring the wine and snacks if you
can show me the difference between the SB3 analog out vs. an external
DAC.
I've been thinking about springing for an external DAC for quite a
while, but I am not sure if there will be $1K worth of improvement. I've
read all these great reviews of the Benchmark, so I was leaning toward
it. But the technology has improved since it first came out, and I would
think there must be equivalent (or better) DACs on the market at a lower
price.
My system is -- SB3 or Rega Apollo CDP => VTL 2.5 pre => Classe CA-2100
amp => Thiel CS2.4s.
I like the sound of the Rega CDP, but I like the convenience of the
SB3. I would love to have both.

Just because there are some more recent DAC chips on the market
definitely doesn't mean that they are better than (for example) the
Benchmark. The circuit design is just as - possibly more - important in
getting a good sound!
--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Outdoors: Boom
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[timequest]

Post by duke43j
I don't have a transporter, but I can bring the wine and snacks if you
can show me the difference between the SB3 analog out vs. an external
DAC.
I've been thinking about springing for an external DAC for quite a
while, but I am not sure if there will be $1K worth of improvement. I've
read all these great reviews of the Benchmark, so I was leaning toward
it. But the technology has improved since it first came out, and I would
think there must be equivalent (or better) DACs on the market at a lower
price.
My system is -- SB3 or Rega Apollo CDP => VTL 2.5 pre => Classe CA-2100
amp => Thiel CS2.4s.
I like the sound of the Rega CDP, but I like the convenience of the
SB3. I would love to have both.

Duke – I’ve heard, but not listened extensively to the DAC1. I have
done extensive auditioning of the transporter vs PS Audio DL-III.
Clearly – and I mean clearly audible, appreciable and noticeably better
(more transparent, more controlled –especially in the bass, more airy,
and with more defined soundstage) – the stock DL-III outperformed the
transporter. You can now pick up a brand new DL-III from PS Audio for
$699. I also did extensive A/B comparisons between the stock DL-III and
my Cullen Stage IV upgraded DL-III. The Cullen DAC outperformed the
stock unit in a way that was also noticeable and apparent (but not as
noticeable as was the difference between the stock DL-III and the
transporter). In terms of this hobby’s typical diminishing returns, I
believe that the additional $700 for the Stage IV upgrade is justifiable
by the slight gains in fidelity. That said however, before you spring
for the Cullen upgrade, I would suggest that you try to audition the
stock unit with a Cullen unit.

Hope this helps.

[Phil Leigh]

... the slight gains in fidelity....

This is a slippery slope. Your "fidelity" is my "euphonics".

DAC's are like styli or speakers... a matter entirely of preference.
Fidelity doesn't come into it. Each to their own!
--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Outdoors: Boom
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[duke43j]

Kphinney - I would love to get together, but Friday night is date night
at our house (with my wife). Maybe we should make arrangements offline.
My e-mail address is duke43j-Re5JQEeQqe9fmgfxC/sS/***@public.gmane.org

Phil - I absolutely agree. The analog stage is, in effect, a preamp
running in a noisy environment. A poorly designed analog stage can mess
up the signal just as easily as a poor DAC chip. But I was thinking that
the speed of the chipsets must have improved (and become cheaper) since
the DAC1 came out 7 years ago.

timequest - I've also heard good things about the DL-III, and I believe
you when you say it significantly improved your sound. One of the
problems I'm having is how to choose the right DAC for my system. Part
of the problem is that the magazines never write a negative review.
Also, people that report on a DAC that they bought aren't going to say
that they made a bad decision. So it's hard to compare one DAC vs
another because they all sound so wonderful.
No reviewer ever said that the SB3 was better than any external DAC you
can name. I've heard the DAC on the SB3 and it's pretty good. So, I
can't believe that all external DACs are light years better. Then there
is the question of tonality. Some say that the DAC1 is very analytical,
where the DL-III and Lavry are warmer. I'm not sure where the Dacmagic
fits in. I would like to get a feel for whether the analytical vs. tube
sound is a dominant trait - i.e. will choosing the wrong DAC totally
screw up my sound or just flavor it somewhat? To be honest, I don't even
know which camp I prefer to be in (analytical vs. tube sound).
Anyway, I guess the best thing is to listen to as many as I can before
making a purchase. But they are not readily available to test drive like
we can a new car.

[kphinney]

Post by duke43j
I don't have a transporter, but I can bring the wine and snacks if you
can show me the difference between the SB3 analog out vs. an external
DAC.
I've been thinking about springing for an external DAC for quite a
while, but I am not sure if there will be $1K worth of improvement. I've
read all these great reviews of the Benchmark, so I was leaning toward
it. But the technology has improved since it first came out, and I would
think there must be equivalent (or better) DACs on the market at a lower
price.
My system is -- SB3 or Rega Apollo CDP => VTL 2.5 pre => Classe CA-2100
amp => Thiel CS2.4s.
I like the sound of the Rega CDP, but I like the convenience of the
SB3. I would love to have both.

I'd be glad to. I have Friday night free if you're up to it. Bring
your choice of CD's and well play them on the CD player, and rip them
for an A-B test on the SB with and without the CI DAC.

And I agree with Phil - your choice of one DAC over another is
completely subjective due to an overwhelming amount of variables in your
system, room, treatments, and ears. I cannot honestly say that a $800
Channel Islands DAC and PS is better than the Benchmark. I can only say
that it sounds better to me on my system.