[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Euphony Audio

[edwardthern]

Anyone had a chance to listen to the Euphony Audio OS/Music player?

Apparently they have an OS/Music player which will be used in the New
Matrix Audio Network player, called the X-Server.

They also have a SSD which comes preloaded with the OS?Music player

http://euphony-audio.com/euphony-drive/


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[Julf]

Does it support the sqeezebox protocol?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[drmatt]

They certainly think very highly of themselves..

I see no reference to protocols, which implies dlna/upnp.




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[edwardthern]

Here is a review of the X-Server, as predicted the reviewer thinks
Euphony sounds better than anything else with Roon a close second.


http://www.head-fi.org/t/825154/new-matrix-audio-x-server-info-and-a-bit-about-the-x-sabre-2-as-well


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[Mnyb]

There is a coming soon fancy player and server device ?

So it's a preinstalled OS + server + player you supposed to bring a
computer ( unless you buy thier server ) and a USB DAC .

Is this multi room it does not seem too ? Seems to be a HTPC but done in
some proprietary way ?

They miss out on not having the server and player ( endpoints ) as a
separate device , they are missing one of the essential features of
network music players ? Sticking a PC into the hifirack ? It's so 15
years ago .

Wonder how open source thier OS is ? And how much they copied , is it
mpd or something in disguise again :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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[Wombat]

Anyone remember magiccarpetride?



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[Mnyb]

Post by Wombat
Anyone remember magiccarpetride?

Was it not one of more delusional forum members here ?

On the topic what do they bring to table, what's their special sauce or
angle to this ?

Any special UI or very good apps for you music browsing and discovery ?

SQ not really an issue we squeezebox users have endpoints separated from
the server , so the server can be whatever hidden in the closet , not
affecting SQ and we can connect our squeezebox digitally to our DAC or
HT processors of choice and that's where the SQ or lack thereof happens
.

A DSP engine ? We have a good transcoding system in LMS but if someone
design a new system from scratch .
Replacing a bunch of transcoding helpers into a smooth DSP would be nice
. tone controls room correction and transcoding that would be
something,with a nice UI .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[garym]

Post by Wombat
Anyone remember magiccarpetride?

;) This and several other recent threads do unfortunately bring him to
mind. Except in the current case our new forum member lacks the
occasional wit that accompanied MCR's trolling.



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
(all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win8(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Transporter, Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
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[drmatt]

Post by Mnyb
Wonder how open source thier OS is ? And how much they copied , is it
mpd or something in disguise again :)

Most likely it's a realtime Linux kernel with some open source code
nicked off somewhere and a php custom front end. I would bet they spent
a lot more developing the front-end than the OS.. it's probably also
full of massive security holes (telnetd running, rlogin enabled,
unpatched phpmyadmin running on default port, etc). In other words all
the things all IoT vendors always get wrong because they don't
understand the free software they are basing their reputation on.

Ahem. Rant over.




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[Mnyb]

Post by drmatt
Most likely it's a realtime Linux kernel with some open source code
nicked off somewhere and a php custom front end. I would bet they spent
a lot more developing the front-end than the OS.. it's probably also
full of massive security holes (telnetd running, rlogin enabled,
unpatched phpmyadmin running on default port, etc). In other words all
the things all IoT vendors always get wrong because they don't
understand the free software they are basing their reputation on.
Ahem. Rant over.

That's what I suspect , delivering on a drive instead of having an image
that the user could flash himself is somewhat shady ? What do you think
?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[drmatt]

Not really shady, I don't think. Saves an awful lot of support tickets.
And you get to scalp a few quid on the hardware margin too. It's a
product, not a freebie.

But. Yes, there is pretty much nothing at all describing what this setup
actually *does*.




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[Mnyb]

Post by drmatt
Not really shady, I don't think. Saves an awful lot of support tickets.
And you get to scalp a few quid on the hardware margin too. It's a
product, not a freebie.
But. Yes, there is pretty much nothing at all describing what this setup
actually *does*.

Yes that's missing , and you can use any computer no suggestions on
suitable hardware . So no one knows how much resources its needs ?

SSD is common sense for OS and programs here days , but reading there
blurb makes apearently that feel that music files themselves should
reside on large SSD ? Which is nonsense , the app and the dB it makes
that makes sense .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[drmatt]

Like all music streamers, the resource requirements are smaller than the
smallest DIMM module you can buy, and the CPU requirements are smaller
than the slowest CPU you can buy.

It's got to be Linux based if it works on "any PC".

SSD is cheap and ubiquitous. There are issues, long term, with
reliability, and personally I would choose spinning rust for media files
(the entropy makes them bad candidates for compression, which most SSD
controllers attempt to do). That said, I wouldn't actually worry about
using an SSD for both at the same time, if that's all I had to hand and
I could afford one large enough for all my media.




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[Mnyb]

Post by drmatt
Like all music streamers, the resource requirements are smaller than the
smallest DIMM module you can buy, and the CPU requirements are smaller
than the slowest CPU you can buy.
It's got to be Linux based if it works on "any PC".
SSD is cheap and ubiquitous. There are issues, long term, with
reliability, and personally I would choose spinning rust for media files
(the entropy makes them bad candidates for compression, which most SSD
controllers attempt to do). That said, I wouldn't actually worry about
using an SSD for both at the same time, if that's all I had to hand and
I could afford one large enough for all my media.

I think they imply a sonic benefit for the practice :) thats the
worrying part , it migth be that the devs are unicorn chasers that
spends valuable dev time on nonsense ? Spinning rust yeah I had one or
two drive fails in my whole computer usage career .

That aside id like that media resides on another physical drive , that i
could just rip out of the machine . On my next server i will have it on
a USB3 drive outside of the litle computer running the show .
I could build a real small server with bays and stuff I have that now
,but at home its overkill .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[drmatt]

Yeah they like to imply the low latency helps. Well, it helps startup,
no doubt.. but beyond that..

Ahem, I built an over engineered home server.. :). HP microserver, core
i3, 6gb ram, ssd boot drive, pair of mirrored western digital red nas
drives. Tbh it was cheap... The server cost a hundred quid.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk




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[edwardthern]

Post by drmatt
Yeah they like to imply the low latency helps. Well, it helps startup,
no doubt.. but beyond that..
Ahem, I built an over engineered home server.. :). HP microserver, core
i3, 6gb ram, ssd boot drive, pair of mirrored western digital red nas
drives. Tbh it was cheap... The server cost a hundred quid.
Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

i3 + 6g ram is not over engineered.

My LMS machine uses a i7 3.4g processor and 16g RAM with 1T SSD

I think thats about normal for a server.


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[edwardthern]

So they want to sell SSD's preloaded with their OS.

Thats kind of a bad business plan....unique but bad. Hardware failures,
shipping damage, stocking, burning and a slew of other overhead costs =
bad business move.

They should have just coped RoonLabs business model and offered the OS
available to download, once downloaded and running give users a week +/-
to test drive it and make them buy an activation key. This way the
product can get into the hands of more people with much less cost and
effort on their part. If the product is indeed this good it will sell
itself. As it stands, the person is either stuck with a SSD/OS -or-
having to return some hardware which could get messy.


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[drmatt]

Post by edwardthern
i3 + 6g ram is not over engineered.
My LMS machine uses a i7 3.4g processor and 16g RAM with 1T SSD
I think thats about normal for a server.

Agree, that is excessive for an LMS box. Given that many people are
running it quite happily on a R Pi B+, or indeed on a SBT, I think both
our builds are over engineered. I qualify my own build by stating it's
also a file server, email, web server, doing software encryption of all
that traffic. So it's not quite so over engineered in that sense. It's
definitely overkill for LMS though!




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[Jeff07971]

Post by edwardthern
i3 + 6g ram is not over engineered.
My LMS machine uses a i7 3.4g processor and 16g RAM with 1T SSD
I think thats about normal for a server.

i3 + 6g ram is not over engineered.-- Yes it is

and yours is ridculously so - I run 6 servers on less hardware and the
limiting factor is still the Gigabit ethernet



*Players:* SliMP3,Squeezebox3 x3,Receiver,SqueezePlayer,PiCorePlayer
x3,Wandboard
*Server:* LMS Version: 7.9.0 - 1475786002 on Centos 7 VM on ESXi 6 on
Dell T320
*Plugins:* AutoRescan/BBCiPlayer/PowerSave/PowerSwitchIII/Squeezecloud
*Remotes:* iPeng8/Orangesqueeze/PC/Jivelite
*Music:* 383GB,1269 albums 17756 songs 4381 artists mostly FLACs

*Want a webapp ?* See
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104305-Webapp-for-LMS
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[Julf]

Post by edwardthern
i3 + 6g ram is not over engineered.
My LMS machine uses a i7 3.4g processor and 16g RAM with 1T SSD
I think thats about normal for a server.

And what is the typical CPU load and RAM usage?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[edwardthern]

Post by Julf
And what is the typical CPU load and RAM usage?

Pretty much 0%


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[Julf]

Post by edwardthern
Pretty much 0%

That's what I would have assumed. Can we agree that is overkill? :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[edwardthern]

Post by Julf
That's what I would have assumed. Can we agree that is overkill? :)

I thought 0% is ideal...for example as % increases so does jitter.


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[Julf]

Post by edwardthern
I thought 0% is ideal...for example as % increases so does jitter.

Does it? Would love to see the actual correlation.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[edwardthern]

Post by Julf
Does it? Would love to see the actual correlation.

_

HERE_IS_SOME_INFO_FROM_REDHAT...[IF_YOU_CAN_BELIEVE_THEY_KNOW_WHAT_THEY_ARE_TALKING_ABOUT]_

Newer CPUs may alter their performance based on a workload heuristic in
order to save
power. This is at odds with latency-sensitive workload requirements,
causing sub-optimal
performance/jitter.

here is limited flexibility with regard to kernel threads as
compared to userspace threads. Here are some options for task affinity
and isolation to
reduce jitter and latency:Isolate CPU cores from
userspace tasks
.

https://access.redhat.com/sites/default/files/attachments/2012_perf_brief-low_latency_tuning_for_rhel6_0.pdf


FYI, plenty of more information on the Web. Texas Instruments, RedHat
and plenty of other companies with the money and staff to do "real"
research can provide a lot of good data. All of my tweaks etc. comes
from them as suppose to arm-chair engineers found in forums.

Years ago I read an article by Texas Instruments which clearly showed
the results of an experiment that showed the correlation between USB
wire length and jitter.....even as USB trace increased on motherboards
jitter increased. Of course as predicted people laughed at me and said I
was crazy....clinging to the idea of some crap about digital data via
spdif needed to be >1.5m and applying that to USB [because it too was
digital data].


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[utgg]

Post by edwardthern
_
HERE_IS_SOME_INFO_FROM_REDHAT...[IF_YOU_CAN_BELIEVE_THEY_KNOW_WHAT_THEY_ARE_TALKING_ABOUT]_
Newer CPUs may alter their performance based on a workload heuristic in
order to save
power. This is at odds with latency-sensitive workload requirements,
causing sub-optimal
performance/jitter.
here is limited flexibility with regard to kernel threads as
compared to userspace threads. Here are some options for task affinity
and isolation to
reduce jitter and latency:Isolate CPU cores from
userspace tasks
.
https://access.redhat.com/sites/default/files/attachments/2012_perf_brief-low_latency_tuning_for_rhel6_0.pdf
FYI, plenty of more information on the Web. Texas Instruments, RedHat
and plenty of other companies with the money and staff to do "real"
research can provide a lot of good data. All of my tweaks etc. comes
from them as suppose to arm-chair engineers found in forums.
Years ago I read an article by Texas Instruments which clearly showed
the results of an experiment that showed the correlation between USB
wire length and jitter.....even as USB trace increased on motherboards
jitter increased. Of course as predicted people laughed at me and said I
was crazy....clinging to the idea of some crap about digital data via
spdif needed to be >1.5m and applying that to USB [because it too was
digital data].

The "jitter and latency" referred to in that Redhat article is the delay
and variability in scheduling of real-time threads. Nothing at all to do
with the jitter of a clock in a DAC.


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[edwardthern]

Post by utgg
The "jitter and latency" referred to in that Redhat article is the delay
and variability in scheduling of real-time threads. Nothing at all to do
with the jitter of a clock in a DAC.

Nobody said it had anything to do with a clock in a Dac.

We are talking about jitter from the source.


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[utgg]

Post by edwardthern
We are talking about jitter from the source.

Explain what you mean by that and how it is relevant to audio quality.


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[edwardthern]

Post by utgg
Explain what you mean by that and how it is relevant to audio quality.

You explain why you think a source latent with jitter will not affect
audio quality.


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[arnyk]

Post by edwardthern
You explain why you think a source latent with jitter will not affect
audio quality.

Jitter is a physical parameter that is readily measured. Below a
certain point, it is completely inaudible. Modern commercial digital
audio gear with audible jitter is very rare.

The phrase "...latent jitter..." is either meaningless on the grounds of
being overly vague, or indicates no actual problem because after all,
*laten*t means "concealed and not manifest"


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[edwardthern]

Jitter is a physical parameter that is readily measured. Below a certain
point, it is completely inaudible. Modern commercial digital audio gear
with audible jitter is very rare.
The phrase "...latent jitter..." is either meaningless on the grounds of
being overly vague, or indicates no actual problem because after all,
*laten*t means "concealed and not manifest"

If you THINK thats true, then try two different sources one with very
high jitter and one with very low. Let your own ears tell you "their"
truth.


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[Julf]

Post by edwardthern
If you THINK thats true, then try two different sources one with very
high jitter and one with very low. Let your own ears tell you "their"
truth.

I keep struggling to figure out if you are serious, pulling our leg or
just trolling.

Can you please explain how jitter from a source, sending buffered
packets over a TCP/IP connection, can affect the player? It is not like
S/PDIF where the DAC derives the clock from the incoming data. Have you
heard the expression "independent clock domains"?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[edwardthern]

Post by Julf
I keep struggling to figure out if you are serious, pulling our leg or
just trolling.
Can you please explain how jitter from a source, sending buffered
packets over a TCP/IP connection, can affect the player? It is not like
S/PDIF where the DAC derives the clock from the incoming data. Have you
heard the expression "independent clock domains"?

No I can't explain it.....my ears tell me what they like and I listen.
Sorry I've been trying to figure out a quantifiable solution to justify
what my ears say they don't like for a long long time. All I know is
[placebo or not] my ears like less jitter from a source.


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[Mnyb]

Post by edwardthern
No I can't explain it.....my ears tell me what they like and I listen.
Sorry I've been trying to figure out a quantifiable solution to justify
what my ears say they don't like for a long long time. All I know is
[placebo or not] my ears like less jitter from a source.

But in the server case it's not really jitter as that has not happened
yet ? We are not playing audio yet .

That was the stroke of genius with the squeezeboxes remove playback from
the computer , stuff the computer elsewhere , build players that does
not depend on drivers or OS et al and with predicable behaviour .
( no fuzzing about with kernel steaming wasabi asio etc and ever
changing settings ... )

You can ofcourse run player and server on the same thing/PC if you want
,but why ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Julf]

Post by edwardthern
No I can't explain it.....my ears tell me what they like and I listen.
Sorry I've been trying to figure out a quantifiable solution to justify
what my ears say they don't like for a long long time. All I know is
[placebo or not] my ears like less jitter from a source.

Fair enough. What we are trying to tell you is that a physical
explanation to what you hear is about as unlikely as random numbers
changing in your spreadsheets as they are copied off the hard disk, web
pages having random letters flipped, or computer programs malfunctioning
because they get corrupted when downloaded - while the placebo effect is
not at all unlikely. So the first step would be to eliminate the
possibility of placebo (and remember placebo has very little to do with
your *conscious* expectations).



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[arnyk]

Post by edwardthern
No I can't explain it.....my ears tell me what they like and I listen.

You do understand that normal human being type ears can neither think
nor speak, right?


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[edwardthern]

Post by arnyk
You do understand that normal human being type ears can neither think
nor speak, right?

You mean your ears don't talk to you independently of what you think and
say?

Of course I know that, it's a metaphor, and no my ears didn't tell me to
write that... My hands did it all on there own


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[edwardthern]

Post by Julf
I keep struggling to figure out if you are serious, pulling our leg or
just trolling.
Can you please explain how jitter from a source, sending buffered
packets over a TCP/IP connection, can affect the player? It is not like
S/PDIF where the DAC derives the clock from the incoming data. Have you
heard the expression "independent clock domains"?

Pulling your leg, no I'm serious but I'd rather keep it light hearted
vs. too serious and argumentative. We may disagree but I still find you
folks my audiophile friends.


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[Mnyb]

But theier simply is no transport "jitter" to a squeezebox over the
network ? It's meanigless question in this context.
If the ipmpackers arrive and can fill the players internal buffer your
alrigth .
A squeezebox is completely server agnostic . TCP-IP is asynchronous.

Using a squeezebox is not the same as playing audio on the machine
itself via some soundcard.

Jitter may occur when you are using for example a spdiff output to a DAC
. When there also is time involved
TCP-IP is something else . It's the same as telling that my ripped CD
sounds diffrent if i download a copy from the web.
Squeezebox Touch have aprox 30 seconds of audiodata in the buffer for a
CD quality flac file .
So you remove the ethernet cable and listen to the buffer .

None of that OS tweaking BS apply to squeezboxes . It hardly apply to
normal
Computer audio , but squeezeboxes are one step further from the
"problem" .

This is not how things work . Its a false claim to say that squeezeboxes
performs diffrent with diffrent servers when they in fact output the
exact same signals on its outputs regardless of server. Thats how they
work and how they are designed to work.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Mnyb]

What I'm trying to say is that with a dedicated endpiont like a
squeezebox Touch or PI is that all playback "issues" are moved to the
player . The server plays no audio at all .

You can have jitter and all other well known audio problems on the
player, thats the whole piont . Server can be whatever is up to the task
. The chosen player decides the audio quality.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[drmatt]

Post by Mnyb
Squeezebox Touch have aprox 30 seconds of audiodata in the buffer for a
CD quality flac file .
So you can remove the ethernet cable and listen to the buffer.

Can confirm.. I stopped LMS and the SBT kept playing for a good 30
seconds before I lost audio. No change to audio quality that I noticed
while it drained its buffer either..




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[Julf]

Post by drmatt
Can confirm.. I stopped LMS and the SBT kept playing for a good 30
seconds before I lost audio. No change to audio quality that I noticed
while it drained its buffer either..

But maybe the jitter is projected into the DAC as long as the server is
in the same room? :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Jeff07971]

Post by drmatt
Can confirm.. I stopped LMS and the SBT kept playing for a good 30
seconds before I lost audio. No change to audio quality that I noticed
while it drained its buffer either..

This is what I found when (in another thread) I put an OpenVPN client
onto Pcp 3.02, the gaps in packets and the "jitter" of the packet
timings was huge 10's of ms at times and the player just carried on
playing absolutely fine (its kinda what tcp/ip's for :) )



*Players:* SliMP3,Squeezebox3 x3,Receiver,SqueezePlayer,PiCorePlayer
x3,Wandboard
*Server:* LMS Version: 7.9.0 - 1475786002 on Centos 7 VM on ESXi 6 on
Dell T320
*Plugins:* AutoRescan/BBCiPlayer/PowerSave/PowerSwitchIII/Squeezecloud
*Remotes:* iPeng8/Orangesqueeze/PC/Jivelite
*Music:* 383GB,1269 albums 17756 songs 4381 artists mostly FLACs

*Want a webapp ?* See
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104305-Webapp-for-LMS
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[Julf]

I wonder wether jitter can be quantum entangled ? :)

Careful - some audiophiles might start presenting that as a real
possibility!



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[philippe_44]

I wonder wether jitter can be quantum entangled ? :)

That's a nice one :) I know you're joking, but seriously, being on some
LMS plugin development and also having a signal processing theory's
background, I can guarantee that there is no correlation between what
the data source does and a potential jitter at playback. Players do
buffer a lot of audio data, that's part of the LMS protocol. Sources are
simply asynchronous HTTP servers that know nothing about what even
jitter means. The way the synchronization protocol works in LMS has
nothing to do with how the source provides audio sample. I've
implemented an AirPlay to LMS bridge that provide sync between the two
"sync logics/domains", so I know that for a fact. I'm not part of any
audiophile battle, I just read the posts from time to time and wanted to
give some insights.



LMS 7.7.5 - 5xRadio, 3xBoom, 4xDuet, 1xTouch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne,
JRiver 21, Chromecast Audio, Chromecast v1, Pi B2, Pi B+, 2xPi A+,
Odroid-C1, Cubie2
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[drmatt]

Lms doesn't play audio, how can it exhibit jitter?

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk




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[edwardthern]

Post by drmatt
Lms doesn't play audio, how can it exhibit jitter?
Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

LMS is a link in the chain of digital data being transmitted from a
source [HD, file etc.] and a Dac. Anything along the chain and induce
jitter.


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[tcutting]

Post by edwardthern
LMS is a link in the chain of digital data being transmitted from a
source [HD, file etc.] and a Dac. Anything along the chain and induce
jitter.

Doesn't this imply that the creation of the file which is being played
(eg, mp3 or FLAC) could also cause the dreaded jitter? So if I download
an mp3 or FLAC file from some source, I should ask what the quality of
the digital chain which was "in front of" the creation of this file?
When I rip a CD, should I be concerned about the jitter being induced
into my system at that point? Does that mean that when ripping a CD,
and then transcoding the result into FLAC (and MP3), I should be
minimizing the processing on the machine I am using to perform this
process? I guess this also means I should be using a special audiophile
DVD reader, or else additional jitter will be introduced? Should I also
add a higher-quality linear power supply to my PC to enable the highest
fidelity during this stage in the digital chain?


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[d6jg]

Post by tcutting
Doesn't this imply that the creation of the file which is being played
(eg, mp3 or FLAC) could also cause the dreaded jitter? So if I download
an mp3 or FLAC file from some source, I should ask what the quality of
the digital chain which was "in front of" the creation of this file?
When I rip a CD, should I be concerned about the jitter being induced
into my system at that point? Does that mean that when ripping a CD,
and then transcoding the result into FLAC (and MP3), I should be
minimizing the processing on the machine I am using to perform this
process? I guess this also means I should be using a special audiophile
DVD reader, or else additional jitter will be introduced? Should I also
add a higher-quality linear power supply to my PC to enable the highest
fidelity during this stage in the digital chain?

You know the answer to all those questions but can I add for absolute
clarification that if your PC cost less than £1000 or USD1200 then you
clearly shouldn't insert a CD for ripping under any circumstances.



*Vortexbox LMS 7.9 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
*Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 ->
Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B&W P7
*Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755
-> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
*Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
*Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones
*Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 ->
Wharfedale Modus Cubes
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[tcutting]

Post by d6jg
You know the answer to all those questions but can I add for absolute
clarification that if your PC cost less than £1000 or USD1200 then you
clearly shouldn't insert a CD for ripping under any circumstances.

I'm going to have to re-rip EVERTHING!!!!
;-)


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk




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[edwardthern]

Post by tcutting
Doesn't this imply that the creation of the file which is being played
(eg, mp3 or FLAC) could also cause the dreaded jitter? So if I download
an mp3 or FLAC file from some source, I should ask what the quality of
the digital chain which was "in front of" the creation of this file?
When I rip a CD, should I be concerned about the jitter being induced
into my system at that point? Does that mean that when ripping a CD,
and then transcoding the result into FLAC (and MP3), I should be
minimizing the processing on the machine I am using to perform this
process? I guess this also means I should be using a special audiophile
DVD reader, or else additional jitter will be introduced? Should I also
add a higher-quality linear power supply to my PC to enable the highest
fidelity during this stage in the digital chain?

Yes RIP's can and do sound different. You should use a very high quality
DVD drive with the best software you can find.


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[Mnyb]

Post by edwardthern
Yes RIP's can and do sound different. You should use a very high quality
DVD drive with the best software you can find.

There is a system called accurate rip .From dB power amp or EAC you can
get flawless rips with any hardware that can find the bits . The ripper
tells you if it did not manage .

You can't beat perfection getting a 100% perfect rip is not hard it's
routine these days . Yes the whole,disc is ripped error free .

Even with lesser software you usually gets perfect rips almost every
time if the disc is not to damaged, but you can't be sure . The error
correction on CD is not as good as on DVD but it does exist and works to
some degree .
There is some redundancy on the disc so data can be reconstructed
perfectly if there is a scratch or two .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[arnyk]

Post by Mnyb
There is a system called accurate rip .From dB power amp or EAC you can
get flawless rips with any hardware that can find the bits . The ripper
tells you if it did not manage .
You can't beat perfection getting a 100% perfect rip is not hard it's
routine these days . Yes the whole,disc is ripped error free .

I rip 4 CDs at a time using 4 TSSTCorp SH 224 drives running under EAC.


I also obtain a high percentage of Accuraterip confirmations, the
exceptions usually damaged or dirty disks.

I can't believe the ignorant BS that certain golden ears are spewing
here just lately. They have obviously not learned about how confirmation
bias will provide perceived evidence to confirm their wildest
speculations.

Since ears have no reasoning abilities I can see how they come to the
conclusions that they report receiving from their ears.

Post by Mnyb
Even with lesser software you usually gets perfect rips almost every
time if the disc is not to damaged, but you can't be sure . The error
correction on CD is not as good as on DVD but it does exist and works to
some degree .
There is some redundancy on the disc so data can be reconstructed
perfectly if there is a scratch or two .

Agreed.


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[philippe_44]

Post by edwardthern
Yes RIP's can and do sound different. You should use a very high quality
DVD drive with the best software you can find.

No they don't - that the fundemental nature of digital processing and
the whole mathematical theory sustaining it that you misunderstand and
confuse with analogue signal. In digital, with the right error
correction code, you can copy the same information as many time as you
want, it does not matter, there is no loss because the physical support
of the information has no influence: it can be optical, electrical,
magnetic, white or black smoke, apple and oranges, it does not matter. A
bit represented by an apple is not better than a bit represented by a
black smoke. The carried "symbol" matters, not what is used to carry it.
In analogue, the signal and its support are mangled.



LMS 7.7.5 - 5xRadio, 3xBoom, 4xDuet, 1xTouch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne,
JRiver 21, Chromecast Audio, Chromecast v1, Pi B2, Pi B+, 2xPi A+,
Odroid-C1, Cubie2
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[Julf]

Post by edwardthern
Yes RIP's can and do sound different.

Only if your rip isn't error-free.

Post by edwardthern
You should use a very high quality DVD drive with the best software you
can find.

Actually, old-fashioned CD drives tend to read CD's better than DVD
drives do. But it really doesn't matter as long as you use ripping
software that verifies the results (using accurip and other methods),
guaranteeing that you get a perfect copy. And perfect is perfect - a
error-free copy of the bits on the CD.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

Further off topic .

With the act of ripping CD's you beat almost all old fashioned hign end
CD drive or id at par with the best ( some use reread functions like a
computer ). With some samsung or TSST 20$ rom drive .

The separate CD drive what a scam that was , rip out the DAC and analog
stage and charge more... i know i've owned a couple .
The most hilarius hellspawn here must be belt driven CD drives ( the
exist ) because belt driven analog TT is so good :D



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[drmatt]

Edit: if you use accurip you beat all high end CD drives.

I'm using cdparanoia. Windows doesn't touch my audio data.




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[Julf]

Post by drmatt
I'm using cdparanoia. Windows doesn't touch my audio data.

There are non-windows rippers that consult accuraterip, as well as
post-rip checkers.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[drmatt]

Post by Julf
There are non-windows rippers that consult accuraterip, as well as
post-rip checkers.

This I shall investigate (post rip checkers, certainly. Particularly if
I can script it.). Thanks for the pointer.

But I am not really concerned that my rips are broken, apart from the
(very) occasional truncated file I've never noticed any difference.




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[Julf]

Post by drmatt
This I shall investigate (post rip checkers, certainly. Particularly if
I can script it.). Thanks for the pointer.

If you are on linux, and want scriptable stuff, beets is hard to beat.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[drmatt]

Post by Julf
If you are on linux, and want scriptable stuff, beets is hard to beat.

Pun intended?




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[Julf]

Post by drmatt
Pun intended?

Accidental, as I think beets is named after the plant, not beat(s).



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

Can we get back to the original show ? This Euphony audio server .
Anyone fished up some more info .

As discussed, a drawback is that you are suposed to playback from the
same machine ? There seems to be no remote endpionts in thier
architecture ( which then removes all audio quality demands from the
server ) and as consequence multiroom how is that suposed to work ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Jeff07971]

Post by Mnyb
Can we get back to the original show ? This Euphony audio server .
Anyone fished up some more info .
As discussed, a drawback is that you are suposed to playback from the
same machine ? There seems to be no remote endpionts in thier
architecture ( which then removes all audio quality demands from the
server ) and as consequence multiroom how is that suposed to work ?

From what I gehter from the review the Server is both player and source,
looks like you'd need a server at each location to be a player. How that
works is anyones guess !



*Players:* SliMP3,Squeezebox3 x3,Receiver,SqueezePlayer,PiCorePlayer
x3,Wandboard
*Server:* LMS Version: 7.9.0 - 1475786002 on Centos 7 VM on ESXi 6 on
Dell T320
*Plugins:* AutoRescan/BBCiPlayer/PowerSave/PowerSwitchIII/Squeezecloud
*Remotes:* iPeng8/Orangesqueeze/PC/Jivelite
*Music:* 383GB,1269 albums 17756 songs 4381 artists mostly FLACs

*Want a webapp ?* See
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104305-Webapp-for-LMS
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[drmatt]

Post by Jeff07971
From what I gehter from the review the Server is both player and source,
looks like you'd need a server at each location to be a player. How that
works is anyones guess !

Looks like the idea is you have a music library elsewhere, you buy the
Euphony ("You Phoney"?) drive, reboot your PC with it and it copies
music from your library into its own area. That's your player. One
device, one player, with a local copy of your music library. Multi-room
in the sense that you can carry the thing from room to room and boot it
on another PC, that sort of thing. As long as it's got wired ethernet,
they don't like wifi. (Which is mainly a device to prevent people
attempting to boot a laptop with it.)

Sounds like a terrible idea to me. Also totes itself as an audiophile
product then offers "gapless -mp3 -playback".


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[arnyk]

Post by Mnyb
Can we get back to the original show ? This Euphony audio server .
Anyone fished up some more info .
As discussed, a drawback is that you are supposed to playback from the
same machine ? There seems to be no remote endpionts in thier
architecture ( which then removes all audio quality demands from the
server ) and as consequence multiroom how is that suposed to work ?

Smoke and mirrors - all of it.

The classic configuration of a PC with a quality internal or USB audio
interface suffices for the ultimate in real-world quality audio.

The only jitter filtering that matters is in the DAC. This idea of
using servers as jitter reducers is so far into overkill.

It is a testimonial to the fact that in 2016 we outinely build servers
that are smaller than a matchbook and cost $1.98 more or less.


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[Mnyb]

Post by arnyk
Smoke and mirrors - all of it.
The classic configuration of a PC with a quality internal or USB audio
interface suffices for the ultimate in real-world quality audio.
The only jitter filtering that matters is in the DAC. This idea of
using servers as jitter reducers is so far into overkill.
It is a testimonial to the fact that in 2016 we outinely build servers
that are smaller than a matchbook and cost $1.98 more or less.

Yes it does that's why i wonder if if they offer something else if it's
only play music from a computer but "better" ,I chalk them off as snake
oil .

A good soundcard should do it as you say and suitable software and
drivers ( that's a whole topic on its own setting up the machine to do
what your want . There some caveats and that's why I like the squeezebox
solution ) .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Jeff07971]

Post by drmatt
("You Phoney"?)

LMFAO !

Post by drmatt
Sounds like a terrible idea to me. Also totes itself as an audiophile
product then offers "gapless mp3 playback".

Absolutely

In the review it says it can be setup as a squeezebox protocol to be an
endpoint for ROON though.



*Players:* SliMP3,Squeezebox3 x3,Receiver,SqueezePlayer,PiCorePlayer
x3,Wandboard
*Server:* LMS Version: 7.9.0 - 1475786002 on Centos 7 VM on ESXi 6 on
Dell T320
*Plugins:* AutoRescan/BBCiPlayer/PowerSave/PowerSwitchIII/Squeezecloud
*Remotes:* iPeng8/Orangesqueeze/PC/Jivelite
*Music:* 383GB,1269 albums 17756 songs 4381 artists mostly FLACs

*Want a webapp ?* See
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104305-Webapp-for-LMS
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[Mnyb]

Post by Jeff07971
LMFAO !
Absolutely
In the review it says it can be setup as a squeezebox protocol to be an
endpoint for ROON though.

I did not find that , my bad did not read well enough .

Then it can also be an endpoint for LMS .

Did they implement Squeezelite ? What kind of licensing are we talking
about again ?

Then the other question can it be a server for other endpoints ?

The price of the x-server hard to gauge what you get if it's a computer
mother board of some sort a large SSD and a DAC and a board with digital
outs in expensive milled aluminium case ? Expensive yes .
But LOL expensive ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by Julf

Post by drmatt
This I shall investigate (post rip checkers, certainly. Particularly if
I can script it.). Thanks for the pointer.

If you are on linux, and want scriptable stuff, beets is hard to beat.

Wow - this looks brilliant. Will look into this!

Thanks.

Post by Julf
"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[drmatt]

Post by Rainer M Krug

Post by Julf

Post by drmatt
This I shall investigate (post rip checkers, certainly. Particularly

if

Post by Julf

Post by drmatt
I can script it.). Thanks for the pointer.

If you are on linux, and want scriptable stuff, beets is hard to

beat.
Wow - this looks brilliant. Will look into this!
Thanks.

I have to agree, this looks awesome. Basically, I think I wrote this in
another life. :)


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[drmatt]

And if you read around you will also see that a typical "low latency"
kernel responds, on average, more slowly than a lightly utilised normal
kernel, because the real-time variant is tuned to provide guaranteed
response times, not the fastest possible.

Secondly, and mainly, as I mentioned above, LMS is forced to wake up and
send a chunk of audio to a player in the range of "several times a
second". The tuning you are talking about is several powers of ten finer
than that. Even a standard kernel gets a clock tick every 1/100th of a
second so will always get your network packet into your app well before
then next buffer needs to be sent.

This armchair engineer has worked in kernel tuning for decades, and IMHO
you are finessing beyond what is relevant, by several powers of ten.

I restate: LMS does not play audio, it sends asynchronous data to an
audio player in very large chunks.




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[edwardthern]

Post by drmatt
And if you read around you will also see that a typical "low latency"
kernel responds, on average, more slowly than a lightly utilised normal
kernel, because the real-time variant is tuned to provide guaranteed
response times, not the fastest possible.
Secondly, and mainly, as I mentioned above, LMS is forced to wake up and
send a chunk of audio to a player in the range of "several times a
second". The tuning you are talking about is several powers of ten finer
than that. Even a standard kernel gets a clock tick every 1/100th of a
second so will always get your network packet into your app well before
then next buffer needs to be sent.
This armchair engineer has worked in kernel tuning for decades, and IMHO
you are finessing beyond what is relevant, by several powers of ten.
I restate: LMS does not play audio, it sends asynchronous data to an
audio player in very large chunks.

Well if you have Golden Ears you would appreciate finessing things
beyond what mere mortals think as relevant...:p

Yeah I get what you are saying....but...tweaking is fun and if my
imagination can perceive a difference [even placebo] then why not?


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[drmatt]

Post by edwardthern
Well if you have Golden Ears you would appreciate finessing things
beyond what mere mortals think as relevant...:p
Yeah I get what you are saying....but...tweaking is fun and if my
imagination can perceive a difference [even placebo] then why not?

Sure, none of my business why you invested in an i7 with maxed out ram
when a raspberry pi will do.. ;)

I would bet there's no way for you to load your server sufficiently to
even measure a difference in the packet delivery time at the receiver
end. Otherwise, Facebook might not work so well! ( Unless, of course,
you just hammer the network link to death - that's a given.)




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[edwardthern]

Post by drmatt
Sure, none of my business why you invested in an i7 with maxed out ram
when a raspberry pi will do.. ;)
I would bet there's no way for you to load your server sufficiently to
even measure a difference in the packet delivery time at the receiver
end. Otherwise, Facebook might not work so well! ( Unless, of course,
you just hammer the network link to death - that's a given.)

I tried one of my old BeagleBone Blacks as a LMS, the sound was
different vs the i7.


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[drmatt]

Post by edwardthern
I tried one of my old BeagleBone Blacks as a LMS, the sound was
different vs the i7.

I would have to say that I find that hard to believe. Unless it was
genuinely not capable of providing the pre-requisite data rate due to
poor performance and you were getting glitches, or of course it was
doing different audio data processing.

I can say for sure I can't tell the difference between the audio from my
LMS server and that from a DVD player (playing the CD) fed into the same
DAC.




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[edwardthern]

Post by drmatt
I would have to say that I find that hard to believe. Unless it was
genuinely not capable of providing the pre-requisite data rate due to
poor performance and you were getting glitches, or of course it was
doing different audio data processing.
I can say for sure I can't tell the difference between the audio from my
LMS server (no matter what hardware it sat on) and that from a cheap DVD
player (playing the CD) fed into the same DAC.

Well its not like I wanted to believe it.

I'd much rather use a cheap BBB or RPi for the LMS. I've tried it over
and over and over again hoping NOT to hear a difference.


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[arnyk]

Post by edwardthern
I tried one of my old BeagleBone Blacks as a LMS, the sound was
different vs the i7.

3 reasons for the perception of an audible difference, even if there was
not any.

(1) No level matching
(2) No time synchronization
(3) Sighted

Odds that there was a possibly technical reason for the audible
difference, less than 3%.


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[drmatt]

There is no audio stream jitter until the data is loaded into a DAC.
Until that point it is just a memory buffer with numbers in.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk




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[drmatt]

Well, quantum is, *officially* fecking weird. Would not surprise me.




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[Julf]

Post by drmatt
Well, quantum is, *officially* fecking weird. Would not surprise me.

"if you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you don’t."

Just because someone can think of a very contorted and unlikely way
something might happen doesn't prove it happens.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[drmatt]

That comment had an internal sarcastic smiley attached when I wrote it.
Unfortunately even UTF8 can't reproduce the smileys I only think about
instead of typing.

Or are you saying that quantum stuff doesn't happen? ;)




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[Julf]

Post by drmatt
That comment had an internal sarcastic smiley attached when I wrote it.
Unfortunately even UTF8 can't reproduce the smileys I only think about
instead of typing.

The unicode standards group still accepts new entries... :)

Post by drmatt
Or are you saying that quantum stuff doesn't happen? ;)

It might or might not happen. Are we looking? :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[drmatt]

Redbook can't be treated like a hard drive though. Yes almost every rip
should be identical, even on a cheap drive, but when you get into
re-read territory it's a bit hit and miss because there is no such thing
as a sector-accurate seek on Redbook.

Most rippers are good enough to deal with this these days by over
reading and realigning the data they received from the drive.

But why all the anger people? Too much whisky before sitting in front of
the keyboard?




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[Julf]

Post by drmatt
Redbook can't be treated like a hard drive though. Yes almost every rip
should be identical, even on a cheap drive, but when you get into
re-read territory it's a bit hit and miss because there is no such thing
as a sector-accurate seek on Redbook.
Most rippers are good enough to deal with this these days by over
reading and realigning the data they received from the drive.

Indeed. And if you use the additional step of accurip verification, you
know the read was successful.

Post by drmatt
But why all the anger people?
I can't believe the ignorant BS that certain golden ears are spewing
here just lately.

One could argue it is harmless - but I would disagree. Acceptance of all
the BS, foo and pseudoscience is why we have to deal with a world where
people can't tell true from false any more.

21644


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: nq161206.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21644|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
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[drmatt]

Post by Julf
One could argue it is harmless - but I would disagree. Acceptance of all
the BS, foo and pseudoscience is why we have to deal with a world where
people can't tell true from false any more.
Having a different opinion is of course totally OK - spreading total
misinformation isn't.

So, my take on what I've seen here is not "hey this is the gospel truth,
come follow me and give me all your gourds", it's "I think it sounds
different but can't explain it, let's talk about that". But as usual the
"it's ignorant BS" comes through loud and clear from the first comment,
rather than any legit conversation.

Seriously, you guys *suck* as teachers.. your pupils would either be
gibbering wrecks or burning down the classroom by the end of the day. ;)




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[drmatt]

Shame. You should have said "yes". I would have believed you! :)




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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by drmatt
Shame. You should have said "yes". I would have believed you! :)

My ignorance - I am not used to the complex social codes and
communication rituals in this group :))

Rainer

Post by drmatt
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[drmatt]

Does anyone know how much it costs....? If it was really, really cheap
maybe, just maybe ..




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[edwardthern]

Post by drmatt
Does anyone know how much it costs....? If it was really, really cheap
maybe, just maybe ..

Well the XServer costs something like $1600


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