Discussion:
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Some thoughts on the Audiophile Holy Wars :-).
Archimago
2017-04-30 21:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Hmmmm. As others say, this is really not possible.
I fear to ask just how noisy your DAC is! Over the years of
measurements, I have never seen noise all that significant over a USB
interface unless something went wrong like picking up ground loop hum
and stuff like that. If anything, they tend to measure better than other
digital interfaces.
Just have a look at the Oppo BDP-105 results I put up recently comparing
'http://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/04/measurements-oppo-bdp-105-rca-xlr-hdmi.html'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2017/04/measurements-oppo-bdp-105-rca-xlr-hdmi.html)
If you do find some evidence for what I believe is one of many myths in
the audiophile world, I'd love to see it!
What you chose to call a "myth" I chose to call a very carefully planned
and targeted marketing campaign. Once one removes the real myth that
states that the high end audio magazines produce editorial content that
free of influence from the advertisers then one will begin to see just
how these "myths" (aka marketing campaigns) work. It's really rather
simple: manufacturer (aka advertiser) produces an item that does
absolutely nothing and yet the item receives rave reviews in all the
high end audio magazines. And so a myth is born.
Archimago I know full well that you despise this behavior but I can't
but feeling that your very polite responses to these myths is like
bringing a knife to a gun fight. The behavior of almost the entire high
end industry, from manufactures to reviewers to salespeople, is
despicable and needs to be treated not with respect but with scorn.
I think archimago does it even better :) he have carefully measured and
presented real evidence on his site.
That works really well with the part of the pupolation that have not yet
got "audiophilia" .
The calm matter of fact manner helps convince the much bigger audience
that not yet afflicted.
The true believers are in most cases lost , they die off slowly ( the
prices in high end indicates that this is a factor ).
The more effective work is convincing people to not join the cult in the
first place .
A fun an educational site does this work more effectively than something
else .
The alarmist tone and manner ( used in populist politics ) would make
him look like yet another cuckoo with alternative facts :)
I fully understand why you, Archimago and many others believe that the
calm, polite and evidenced based approach is the proper one since reason
does indicate that this approach SHOULD work much more effectively than
my much more hostile approach. However the facts prove otherwise, in
other words, the calm, polite and evidenced based approach does not
work. Just ask President Trump which approach works better :)
Hey Mnyb and Ralph!
Lovely chatting with you guys again as usual :-). I thought it would be
good to start a new thread discussing this rather than clutter up the
"Intona USB Thing" comments. Because of the length of this, I'm going to
split into 3 posts!

Yeah, what can you say about the state of the world these days, eh?
Trump (100 days are up) is truly the hysterical gift that just keeps
giving; him and his cadre. "Sad" - indeed.

I don't think that bringing objectivity into a "gun fight" is like
taking out a knife. It's way more powerful - depending on situation it
will either blow a hole like a bazooka or perhaps the shut-down power of
an EMP blast. The bluster of guys who just talk out of undisciplined
"experience" and nothing but hot air based on their own (religious-like)
testimonies have been a subject that I've focused on over the years on
the blog. IMO, they are not that hard to quiet down. Even though their
underlying opinions might not change, eventually what ends up happening
is that they have no further arguments to refute the evidence and walks
away or ignore posts. I think that Mnyb is right that perhaps the "true
believers" might never change but those are not the folks I necessarily
want to "convert" (though I believe from E-mails and PM's over the years
that many are converting!).

I wanted to systematically provide something -substantial -on-line as a
resource for those "more objective" folks who wanted something to point
to when they get into these "unholy wars". I hope we can stand on a
higher plane of argument and challenge not with words, but rather say to
the subjectivist:
"-Hey man, I can just as easily testify that something makes or doesn't
make a difference *and *I can show you why this jives with reality -
check my experiments out... If you got better evidence, show me!-"

IMO, usually this diffuses the tension and there's not much to say after
that. I hope that newcomers to the hobby can see this tendency time
after time! What the way of the world in the political sphere is is
irrelevant I think to what we can do within our little community. The
audiophile hobby is small and I think it doesn't take that much to
change views over time.

We must not underestimate the power of the Internet these days. I look
at the work and views of folks like Peter Aczel and wonder if he were
publishing "The Audio Critic" openly on-line, whether it would have had
a much more powerful effect on audiophilia. With the Internet, we no
longer have to come up short-handed competing with the likes of
Industry-sponsored stuff. (I know the number of hits I get on my blog
posts... I have a strong suspicion that the "silent majority" are hungry
for -facts -rather than just opinion.)

Over the years, I have tried to follow a systematic approach. My belief
is that if more audiophile hobbyists become -educated -about how the
technology works, this "kernel" of knowledge will defend against an
automatic acceptance of nonsense. The audiophile press has done a
wonderful job of distorting truths, exaggerating significance, and not
associating objective evidence as "reality", rather accepting the
subjectivist claims as somehow being more valuable or generalizable
which is of course nonsense. When the hobby loses its ties to science
and engineering whence it arose, anything becomes possible, including
descent into claims based on madness.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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Archimago
2017-04-30 21:54:28 UTC
Permalink
For those new to some of our discussions here over the years, here are a
few links over the years which I've tried to provide evidence for and
thoughts I wanted people to consider. I've tried to maintain a general
structure in mind of topics to address, many of which are
contemporaneous with where the Industry is going or products it wants to
promote:

'*MP3 (high bitrate) vs. FLAC blind test*'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/high-bitrate-mp3-internet-blind-test_3422.html)
- MP3 320kbps appears to be just as good even to audiophiles with $$$
gear!

*The beginnings of device measurements:* 'Squeezebox Touch'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/measurements-logitech-squeezebox-touch.html),
'Transporter'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/measurements-logitech-transporter.html),
'NOS DAC'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/measurements-muse-mini-tda1543x4-nos.html),
'Playstation 1'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/03/measurements-sony-playstation-1-scph.html)

*The beginnings of looking at the "dreaded jitter" :-)* - 'Adaptive vs.
Asynchronous USB'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/03/measurements-adaptive-aune-x1.html),
'USB cables (making no difference)
'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/04/measurements-usb-cables-for-dacs.html)

*Cable measurements *(USB, TosLink, Coaxial, HDMI, ethernet, Synergistic
power cable, Crystal Cable, interconnects...) - 'summarized here'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/06/musings-audio-cables-summary-non.html);
notice also philosophical discussions

*Audio playback software* - no, they make no difference! 'On Windows'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/06/measurements-part-i-bit-perfect.html),
'on Mac OS X'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/05/measurements-bit-perfect-audiophile.html)

*Windows OS tweaks... *'No difference either from stuff like JPLAY and
Fidelizer'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/08/measurements-audiophile-sound-and.html).

*Audio lossless compression* - 'lossless is lossless'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/05/measurements-do-lossless-compressed.html)
:-)

On the fact that 'many SACD's are just upsamples'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/07/list-suspected-44-or-48khz-pcm.html)
to remind folks that we should *treat "high res" with caution*.

*Explorations in vinyl playback* and time domain performance compared to
digital. ('Digital'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/09/measurements-digital-audio-and.html))
('Technics SL-1200'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/08/measurements-technics-sl-1200-m3d-wow.html))
('Roksan TMS'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/11/measurements-roksan-tms-1-wow-flutter.html))

*Various philosophical discussions:* 'Passion/Audiophilia/Faith/Money'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/12/musings-passion-audiophilia-faith-and.html),
'Vinyl vs. Digital'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/02/musings-ongoing-vinyl-vs-digital-debate.html),
'Objectivism vs. Subjectivism'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/03/musings-audiophiles-us-vs-them.html),
'convenience/lossy/societal trends/worsening quality'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2016/08/musings-convenience-lossy-audio.html),
'wisdom of simplicity in hi-res
'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/12/musings-wisdom-of-simplicity-re-hi-res.html)

*"Basics"* of 'thinking about High Resolution Audio'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/01/musings-what-is-value-of-high.html),
'value of 176/192kHz?'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2016/06/musings-analysis-is-there-any-value-to.html),
'limitations of human hearing'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/10/musings-meditations-on-limitations-of.html),
'do we need >20kHz?'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2017/04/musings-do-we-need-those-20khz.html)

*Digital filters:* 'Linear vs. Minimal phase blind test'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/07/the-linear-vs-minimum-phase-upsampling.html),
'basics of it'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2016/07/musings-digital-interpolation-filters.html)

*USB "noise":* 'USB hubs'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/05/measurements-usb-hubs-and-8khz-phy.html),
'using Corning optical USB cable'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/05/measurements-corning-usb-3-optical.html)

*Pono:* 'general comments'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/01/last-words-on-pono-mastering-analysis.html),
'Player itself'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/08/measurements-ponoplayer-another-mans.html)

The power of *DSP room correction*: 'First time'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/09/measurements-sound-room-update-digital.html)...
'Second time'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2016/05/updated-room-measurements-musings-on.html)...

*Computer Audio:* 'Part I'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2017/03/musings-computer-audio-part-i.html),
'Part II'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2017/03/musings-computer-audio-part-ii-basics.html)

*Inexpensive audio streaming these days:* Using 'ODROID C2'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2016/05/measurements-odroid-c2-with-volumio-2.html)
and 'Raspberry Pi 3'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2017/01/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-as-usb.html).
'\"Touch\" player'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2017/03/howto-building-and-installing-raspberry.html).

*MQA:* many posts 'beginning here'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/01/musings-miscellanies-on-audio-encoding.html).



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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Wombat
2017-04-30 22:11:58 UTC
Permalink
The efforts you and others do is simply amazing! Thanks for that.
It should be mentioned that people like Arnold K. spend much time in
several forums and events to make people think about their own
percetption.
Over the last years i see several High-End peddlers are more cautious
with direct superlatives and they have it harder to find gullibles.
Nonetheless they try to sell now with 'The difference is subtile and not
to abx but worth once spotted' ;)



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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Archimago
2017-04-30 22:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wombat
The efforts you and others do is simply amazing! Thanks for that.
It should be mentioned that people like Arnold K. spend much time in
several forums and events to make people think about their own
percetption.
Over the last years i see several High-End peddlers are more cautious
with direct superlatives and they have it harder to find gullibles.
Nonetheless they try to sell now with 'The difference is subtile and not
to abx or measure but worth once spotted' ;)
I've certainly seen Arny K's tireless efforts over the years... Hey, who
can forget Arny's tete-a-tete with John Atkinson in 2005!

'The Great Audiophile Debate - John Atkinson vs. Arny Krueger'


Amazing that was 12 years ago, Arny!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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Mnyb
2017-05-01 02:12:19 UTC
Permalink
I tend to think of it as a cultural thing . I'm no anthropologist and
can't always find the words in English ( not my first language).
It's giving "them" to much credit calling conspiracy all the time .

The audiophile community has iterated down to this in small steps , it's
just what happens when you go on unchecked by reality in your own little
feedback loop for decades. The first "filter bubble" before Internet was
big thing :)

But it is also true then when we already got the current situation it
attracts a lot of deliberate scams like in the cable industry.
Some of these brands migth have started and are still run by .

People who actually still believes this . Some who actually just
continue as always and not really questioning things . And true con
artist who just struck gold by inventing x to cure y just like the
health scammers do .
Or something even more complicated.

The corruption between press and the subject they are writing about is
not unique to the audiophile world .
The twist is what they are "corrupting about" is total make believe,
floating away into the night in their own bubble :)

But I do think that the truth of migth have sunk into some editors but
they are keeping up apearences because it's to much money rolling in but
mostly social prestige and they don't know of anything else .

Profitable magazine, that's not so common these days , but if would try
this career I would chose some other topic than high end audio ?

The audio critic was a good magazine it's issues are aviable for PDF
downloads.
The magazine is not without its own problems .

I recommend to find one article where they test a Sony CD player vs a
expensive Accuphase unit for one of its really good articles.
It explains a lot of how designing audio works in some ways and why the
exotic stuff gets expensive really fast even if they are based mostly on
real technology and sometimes performing worse than mainstream stuff.
Just good journalism.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Julf
2017-05-01 06:37:51 UTC
Permalink
But then there is this: 'Why the Flat Earth Movement is the Best Symbol
of the Increasingly Diminished Value of Truth and Intelligence'
(http://news.nationalpost.com/life/why-the-flat-earth-movement-is-the-best-symbol-of-the-increasingly-diminished-value-of-truth-and-intelligence)

"It’s the same quick-fix attitude that’s besieging our political
landscape: information that doesn’t accord with your carefully manicured
world-view is “fake news,” opinions that don’t cohere with your own are
offensive, everything you dislike or that frightens you can be wedged
between scare quotes and rejected out of hand. Never mind the
“expertise” of “professionals” and “elites.” You still matter. You know
everything you need to know."

For many audiophilia is a way to escape from a modern world full of
knowledge, science, technology and expertise into a simpler, gentler
word where you count simply for having been around long enough to read
enough audiophile magazines and but the right boxes. But because you are
Special, with better ears than the ears of all those know-it-all
engineer types, your Truth trumps (pun intended) all their formulas.

Unfortunately proving them wrong just strengthens their resolve.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Mnyb
2017-05-01 09:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julf
But then there is this: 'Why the Flat Earth Movement is the Best Symbol
of the Increasingly Diminished Value of Truth and Intelligence'
(http://news.nationalpost.com/life/why-the-flat-earth-movement-is-the-best-symbol-of-the-increasingly-diminished-value-of-truth-and-intelligence)
"It’s the same quick-fix attitude that’s besieging our political
landscape: information that doesn’t accord with your carefully manicured
world-view is “fake news,” opinions that don’t cohere with your own are
offensive, everything you dislike or that frightens you can be wedged
between scare quotes and rejected out of hand. Never mind the
“expertise” of “professionals” and “elites.” You still matter. You know
everything you need to know."
For many audiophilia is a way to escape from a modern world full of
knowledge, science, technology and expertise into a simpler, gentler
word where you count simply for having been around long enough to read
enough audiophile magazines and but the right boxes. But because you are
Special, with better ears than the ears of all those know-it-all
engineer types, your Truth trumps (pun intended) all their formulas.
Unfortunately proving them wrong just strengthens their resolve.
.. and buy the rigth boxes too ,the ones cherished in the magazines :)
then your in and experienced and matters . Yes a culture/cult around
exclusive audio gear ?

Dont get me wrong i do love and cherish audio gear too its fun , besides
the sound i love the design and brands behind some of the stuff and the
history of hifi .
At the same time i realise that my phone these days are better than my
first standalone DAC from the 2000's , thats just how it works .

If it only could be like the old car hobby , not many in that hobby
pretends that they are "better" but loves the style and feeling of these
old cars . The tube hobbyist on the other hand have dreamed up some
insane stuff to pretend that tube gear is "better" ?
If they could just like the sound of it and accept that its cloured and
distorted and actually not whats been feed to the input and be happy
anyway ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Archimago
2017-05-19 22:33:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julf
But then there is this: 'Why the Flat Earth Movement is the Best Symbol
of the Increasingly Diminished Value of Truth and Intelligence'
(http://news.nationalpost.com/life/why-the-flat-earth-movement-is-the-best-symbol-of-the-increasingly-diminished-value-of-truth-and-intelligence)
"It’s the same quick-fix attitude that’s besieging our political
landscape: information that doesn’t accord with your carefully
manicured world-view is “fake news,” opinions that don’t cohere with
your own are offensive, everything you dislike or that frightens you can
be wedged between scare quotes and rejected out of hand. Never mind the
“expertise” of “professionals” and “elites.” You still matter. You
know everything you need to know."
For many audiophilia is a way to escape from a modern world full of
knowledge, science, technology and expertise into a simpler, gentler
word where you count simply for having been around long enough to read
enough audiophile magazines and but the right boxes. But because you are
Special, with better ears than the ears of all those know-it-all
engineer types, your Truth trumps (pun intended) all their formulas.
Unfortunately proving them wrong just strengthens their resolve.
Yup, very appropriate observation into the nature of audiophilia and the
bigger sociological context which we're seeing playing out all over the
place like politics.

Years ago, I remember the term "intellectual embarrassment" being used
as one which I've thought about as apropos for much of what we see
written in the audiophile world. I think it applies nicely to the quote
from the flat earth article and your comments about the desire of a
"simpler, gentler world" where essentially any opinion can be acceptable
no matter how outlandish.

This has become the fate of various audiophile sites IMO (cough...
cough... AudioStream, 6moons...). Even if at some point the intent was
to seriously discuss the technology and disseminated knowledge, they now
read like either a bad music review site that just wants to sell
whatever idiosyncratic stuff the guy likes, or a hangout for the New Age
faithful. Forget the "intellectual embarrassment" part, it's just plain
embarrassing that this is presumably what many audiophiles consume in
terms of the source of information on a regular basis!

As for likening this to the Flat Earthers, thankfully there aren't many
of those around even if the article can throw up a few celebrity names.
They can perhaps take pride in being the "few" and the "elite". However,
considering that the audiophile press has been at this for decades now
and considering how many audiophiles already belong to the subjectivist
camp, maybe the psychology works out better for the vocal objective
folks which might be a minority at this time in many places.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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Golden Earring
2017-05-20 04:02:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julf
But then there is this: 'Why the Flat Earth Movement is the Best Symbol
of the Increasingly Diminished Value of Truth and Intelligence'
(http://news.nationalpost.com/life/why-the-flat-earth-movement-is-the-best-symbol-of-the-increasingly-diminished-value-of-truth-and-intelligence)
"It’s the same quick-fix attitude that’s besieging our political
landscape: information that doesn’t accord with your carefully manicured
world-view is “fake news,” opinions that don’t cohere with your own are
offensive, everything you dislike or that frightens you can be wedged
between scare quotes and rejected out of hand. Never mind the
“expertise” of “professionals” and “elites.” You still matter. You know
everything you need to know."
For many audiophilia is a way to escape from a modern world full of
knowledge, science, technology and expertise into a simpler, gentler
word where you count simply for having been around long enough to read
enough audiophile magazines and but the right boxes. But because you are
Special, with better ears than the ears of all those know-it-all
engineer types, your Truth trumps (pun intended) all their formulas.
Unfortunately proving them wrong just strengthens their resolve.
Hi Julf.

Bit late responding but "nevermind".

It is a great shame that the inability of our measuring equipment
(including the Hasselblad cameras used on the Apollo 8 mission) to
detect all the Hilbert space dimensions in which the universe is framed
has led philistines to regard the poetically beautiful concept of the
Earth being a flat disc supported by an infinite column of blue turtles
as "untrue" according to some ignorant "scientific" mumbo-jumbo.

What could be more ridiculous from a common-sense viewpoint than the
notion that the earth is not only round but has *-nothing-* to hold it
up? It would obviously fall down.

I'm sure that some of the turtles (any number of them at a time in fact)
would welcome some respite from their arduous duties, although our own
turtles might discriminate against them because of the colour of their
skin if we were to release them into the ocean. So I suppose a decent
zoo is the best we could offer...

Doubtless one day we will dispense with this ridiculous scientific
method which by its own axioms is unable to prove anything, & begin to
appreciate the real wonders of our universe once again.

Dave :)


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darrenyeats
2017-05-20 10:31:51 UTC
Permalink
https://www.quora.com/Does-The-Flat-Earth-Society-have-members-all-around-the-globe



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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arnyk
2017-05-20 12:07:54 UTC
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https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ace1946ee57c0862eb29f7e06842d99c-c]
That's encouraging. If there are still people who believe that the earth
is flat, this help explain why people still believe in magic DACs and
amps and cable, and the like.


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Golden Earring
2017-05-20 12:40:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
That's encouraging. If there are still people who believe that the earth
is flat, this help explain why people still believe in magic DACs and
amps and cable, and the like.
I've been advised that with a little pharmacological help you can still
catch Xanadu & Brigadoon...

Dave :cool:


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arnyk
2017-05-02 00:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
I've certainly seen Arny K's tireless efforts over the years... Hey, who
can forget Arny's tete-a-tete with John Atkinson in 2005!
'The Great Audiophile Debate - John Atkinson vs. Arny Krueger'
http://youtu.be/oyaWMpnhusA
Amazing that was 12 years ago, Arny!
Thanks for the kind words.


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daverich4
2017-05-04 21:41:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
Thanks for the kind words.
I think this is the first post I've ever read by Arny that didn't have
the word "Placebo" in it.


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RonM
2017-05-05 12:36:50 UTC
Permalink
In a certain kind of way, "kind words" ARE a kind of placebo, often a
way of easing opinion pain without actually addressing substance.

Although not in this case . . .



LMS on a dedicated server (FitPC3)
Transporter (Ethernet) - main listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Touch (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space
Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (WiFi) - home office
Control - Squeeze Control (Android mobile), 2 Controllers (seldom used),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 4)
Touch x 1 - spare
UE Radio x 1 - spare
Boom x 1 - spare
Controller x 1 - Spare
Duet Receiver (backup)
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ralphpnj
2017-05-13 11:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Okay so I'm late to the party. With spring now struggling to arrive here
in the northeastern US I have been busy out riding my bicycles (I have
several bicycles although I can only ride one at a time) rather than
sitting at the computer reading on-line audio forums.

So far a very interesting discussion, filled with lots of great links.
My feelings about the high end audio industry remain highly skeptical
since there are some kernels of truth buried within all the audiophile
voodoo.

While the use of measurements is a wonderful tool perhaps a basic primer
on the differences between what can be measured and what is actually
audible is needed. Two quick examples would be jitter in digital audio
and the effects of cable/wire in both digital and analog audio. In the
case of jitter it can shown while jitter can be easily measured, jitter
cannot be heard by human ears. The case for cables is even more absurd
since the claimed effects of most cables can't even be measured let
alone be audible.

Then there is the myth that electrical and digital audio signals somehow
behave differently than other electrical and digital signals. For
example the video portion of a HDMI connection is not effected by a
fancy high end HDMI cable but the audio portion is.

Then there is the money, as in the saying "follow the money" - following
the money goes a long way in helping to explain most, if not all,
audiophile myths. And there is lots of money being made by keeping
audiophile myths alive and well. $50,000 power amps and $10,000 speaker
cable offer profit margins that should make one's head spin.

One of the main reasons that this forum seems to attract so many
objective audio enthusiasts is that most of us understand that the
aforementioned audiophile beliefs are myths and simply reject the
outright dismal seen in the audiophile world that the Squeezebox devices
are only "mid-fi" and are not capable of delivering "high end" audio.
Truth be told, it was only after my purchase of my first SB3 that I
began to fully question many of the audiophile myths. And once I was
able to hear the truth with my own ears many of the audiophile myths
started to fall like dominoes.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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darrenyeats
2017-05-13 16:54:33 UTC
Permalink
And once I was able to hear the truth with my own ears many of the
audiophile myths started to fall like dominoes.




Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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ralphpnj
2017-05-13 17:20:38 UTC
Permalink
darrenyeats wrote:
http://youtu.be/nU1PyzEVPdg

Love it!

Also check out the extended version of "Fallin' Like Dominoes" on Gare
Du Nord's "Let's Have A Ball" release (sorry no video available).



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Archimago
2017-05-19 22:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
Okay so I'm late to the party. With spring now struggling to arrive here
in the northeastern US I have been busy out riding my bicycles (I have
several bicycles although I can only ride one at a time) rather than
sitting at the computer reading on-line audio forums.
...
While the use of measurements is a wonderful tool perhaps a basic primer
on the differences between what can be measured and what is actually
audible is needed. Two quick examples would be jitter in digital audio
and the effects of cable/wire in both digital and analog audio. In the
case of jitter it can shown while jitter can be easily measured, jitter
cannot be heard by human ears. The case for cables is even more absurd
since the claimed effects of most cables can't even be measured let
alone be audible.
...
One of the main reasons that this forum seems to attract so many
objective audio enthusiasts is that most of us understand that the
aforementioned audiophile beliefs are myths and simply reject the
outright dismal seen in the audiophile world that the Squeezebox devices
are only "mid-fi" and are not capable of delivering "high end" audio.
Truth be told, it was only after my purchase of my first SB3 that I
began to fully question many of the audiophile myths. And once I was
able to hear the truth with my own ears many of the audiophile myths
started to fall like dominoes.
Hey there Ralph!

Good that you've been able to enjoy the weather... Alas here in
Vancouver out west, it has been a rainy and cold spring thus far.
Hopefully this weekend will brighten up and get warmer to enjoy the
outdoors.

*Measurements *and *results from blind testing *alas end up being the
only tools we have to escape from the subjective "I heard it so you have
to believe me" mindset. And of those 2, good luck bringing up blind
testing in many forums unless you're looking to be banned...

You're right, at multiple nanoseconds of data jitter, we already cannot
hear a sonic difference but when even the measurements suggest there's
essentially no jitter worth mentioning, then IMO the subjectivists have
nothing to say. We are already there with even very inexpensive DACs
these days (I have one I'm testing currently!).

I find it fascinating that over the years, there has been essentially no
testing of crazy priced $$$$ cables in the major magazines. Simply
amazing! Logically, every cable reviewer (probably) can accept the idea
of transparency - that "the best cable is no cable". But yet, unless
there's something other than electrical (or optical) conduction, they
never bother to test... Truly amazing!

Yup. That whole "mid-fi" vs. "hi-fi" divide comes across absolutely
ridiculously these days as if price dictates quality; especially in the
world of high fidelity digital... Discussed in my 'recent post last
week'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2017/05/musings-on-being-audiophile-rationality.html).



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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darrenyeats
2017-05-01 10:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
For those new to some of our discussions here over the years, here are a
few links over the years which I've tried to provide evidence for and
thoughts I wanted people to consider. I've tried to maintain a general
structure in mind of topics to address, many of which are
contemporaneous with where the Industry is going or products it wants to
1. It was your MP3/FLAC test that convinced me I CAN distinguish MP3 and
FLAC! It was the metal track - I couldn't establish a preference, but I
could pick out A and B at will for that one track. Once, I randomised
the playlist and tried it 10 times. I got 9 right. Until your test, I
was thinking it might be placebo but now I'm convinced it's audible.

2. One of your tests on digital cables is the ONLY concrete evidence I
have seen that changing a digital cable can affect measurements at the
analogue of a DAC. Without your evidence, I would probably have to
concede this might be just a theoretical possibility. (Just in case it
isn't clear from the preceding words, I am not writing about
audibility.)

I thank you for your measurement-led approach. I don't agree with all
your summarisations though.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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Archimago
2017-05-19 20:04:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by darrenyeats
1. It was your MP3/FLAC test that convinced me I CAN distinguish MP3 and
FLAC! It was the metal track - I couldn't establish a preference, but I
could pick out A and B at will for that one track. Once, I randomised
the playlist and tried it 10 times. I got 9 right. Until your test, I
was thinking it might be placebo but now I'm convinced it's audible.
2. One of your tests on digital cables is the ONLY concrete evidence I
have seen that changing a digital cable can affect measurements at the
analogue output of a DAC. Without your evidence, I would probably have
to concede this might be just a theoretical possibility. (Just in case
it isn't clear from the preceding words, I am not writing about
audibility.)
I thank you for your measurement-led approach. I don't agree with all
your summarisations though.
I can see how certain audiophiles might jump on some of the above words
and extrapolate wrongly. But that's no reason to bury or twist
conclusions.
Hi Darren,
Yeah, let's talk about this...

1. Indeed the metal tune "Keine Zeit" was the track that would likely
sound "most different". Lots of noise and other stuff for the MP3 to
encode :-). But remember, the MP3 was also the "most preferred" over the
original FLAC! So yes, I suppose if one had lots of hard-to-encode hard
rock / metal albums, maybe one would notice a difference... But one
might also *prefer* the sound of MP3 at 320kbps.

Remember that MP3 is indeed not perfect of course! There are test tracks
like keys rattling and such used to fine tune the psychoacoustics at
various bitrates.

2. Sure. Stuff like coaxial digital cables that pick up noise can
influence the DAC output in extreme cases (eg. poor shielding). But I
don't think I've demonstrated anything else unusual...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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drmatt
2017-05-19 22:08:54 UTC
Permalink
It seems to me that MP3 can deliberately "clean up" a complex signal and
make it sound more defined, just because it throws away some of the
subtlety.

But then, I am sitting in a pub..

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk



--
Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with
Debian+LMS 7.9.0
Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k
albums..
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Archimago
2017-05-19 22:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by drmatt
It seems to me that MP3 can deliberately "clean up" a complex signal and
make it sound more defined, just because it throws away some of the
subtlety.
But then, I am sitting in a pub..
Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
Yes, that was my suspicion as well. The psychoacoustic algorithm
sanitizes the signal a bit by removing extraneous information deemed
"unnecessary".

You're reading this forum from the pub!? I guess it's not exactly a
"happening place" this Friday evening :-(.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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darrenyeats
2017-05-19 22:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Real world 16/44 sometimes ends up with various kinds of dodginess
around 20-22kHz - none of which would matter if we had zero distortion
playback BTW.

Some roll off starting somewhere below 20kHz could help mitigate - MP3
might be an advantage in this context. See discussion
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3040013#post3040013.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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Wombat
2017-05-19 23:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Real world 16/44 sometimes ends up with various kinds of dodginess above
20kHz - none of which would matter if we had zero distortion playback
BTW.
Some roll off starting somewhere below 20kHz could help - MP3 might be
an advantage in this context. See discussion
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3040013#post3040013.
Even if this is some idea from Werner i am still sceptic that people
think to hear ringing above 20kHz but not a 18kHz lowpass...



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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darrenyeats
2017-05-19 23:20:54 UTC
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Read the whole thing.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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drmatt
2017-05-20 00:14:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
You're reading this forum from the pub!? I guess it's not exactly a
"happening place" this Friday evening :-(.
Heh. Not the whole forum, just catching up a couple of subscribed
threads..

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk



--
Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with
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Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k
albums..
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