[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Chips

[edwardthern]

I've had quite a few Dacs over the years, as many people probably had
too.

I've heard different implementations of the Sabre chip, from mellow with
the Wadia Dac to slightly on the hard side. I've heard a few Dacs with
AD chips, they tend to sound very lively and very good extension almost
on the wild side. BB also makes some nice evenly toned Dac chips and of
course the TDA1543 Dac chips used in many NOS Dacs....love um. WM Dac
chips seem to have a real fullness and lushness about them. But my
favorite is the PCM1704UK.

Rank:
PCM1704
TDA1543 - I'd almost rank this #1 due to its character alone but the
PCM1704 beats it.
Sabre
WM
AD
others


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[d6jg]

Rank

+ Gravy with Salt & Vinegar
+ Curry Sauce
+ Salt & Vinegar on its own



*Vortexbox LMS 7.9 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
*Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 ->
Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B&W P7
*Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755
-> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
*Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
*Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones
*Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 ->
Wharfedale Modus Cubes
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[kidstypike]

+ Scraps and pea wet.



kidstypike

LMS on Raspberry Pi 3/max2play/HiFiBerry DAC+ > AVI DM5

1 x SB3 - 1 x Boom - 1 x (Squeezebox) Radio - 2 x Touch - 2 x Raspberry
Pi/piCorePlayer/HiFiBerry
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[DJanGo]

142 posts in < 40 days - most of them with funny content.

Why you didnt spend your time to understand the lms eco system and
improve your knowledge for the benefit of others?
eg. writing some code for the weekly updates?


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[edwardthern]

DJanGo wrote:
> 142 posts in < 40 days - most of them with funny content.
>
> Why you didnt spend your time to understand the lms eco system and
> improve your knowledge for the benefit of others?
> eg. writing some code for the weekly updates?

who me?

write code for weekly updates? nah I'm too dumb for that...

although some years ago I did skin lms, I made two different skins as
supposed to the normal black,greenish and white old skin. I lost it when
my old windows machine crashed and was too lazy to reproduce it.


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[edwardthern]

DJanGo wrote:
> 142 posts in < 40 days - most of them with funny content.
>
> Why you didnt spend your time to understand the lms eco system and
> improve your knowledge for the benefit of others?
> eg. writing some code for the weekly updates?

Hmmmmm just for kicks how could someone contribute to the LMS effort?


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[Mnyb]

Yes DAC design and chips can be interesting with the rigth aproach ( i
dont design dac hardware so i cant contribute )

Hint its not like changing pickups on a turntable , with the rigth
design of the complete DAC you yield similar and god results ( a humanly
transparent DAC with low noise and distortion )

The ladder DAC , NOS and unfiltered stands out i would say its audible
without dbt :) but not for a good reason , its simply wrong .
And i think the 1543 actually have a frequency response error corrected
by the old filter circuit it was used together with .

Tech nostalgia what a feeling , if something gets old and forgotten ,
sudenly we forgot why it was ditched ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Apesbrain]

d6jg wrote:
> Rank
>
> + Gravy with Salt & Vinegar
> + Curry Sauce
> + Salt & Vinegar on its own
I didn't get until just right now (and seeing the post above) that you
were also talking about "chips". Oh, you wacky Brits!

http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2013/04/british-crisps


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[d6jg]

Apesbrain wrote:
> I didn't get until just right now (and seeing the post above) that you
> were also talking about "chips". Oh, you wacky Brits!
>
> http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2013/04/british-crisps

Please can I point out the we (Brits) invented the language and
therefore our interpretation of the word is correct. What you Yanks call
a Chip is a Crisp (or an electronic component in some circles)!



*Vortexbox LMS 7.9 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
*Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 ->
Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B&W P7
*Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755
-> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
*Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
*Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones
*Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 ->
Wharfedale Modus Cubes
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[arnyk]

edwardthern wrote:
> I've had quite a few Dacs over the years, as many people probably had
> too.
>
> I've heard different implementations of the Sabre chip, from mellow with
> the Wadia Dac to slightly on the hard side. I've heard a few Dacs with
> AD chips, they tend to sound very lively and very good extension almost
> on the wild side. BB also makes some nice evenly toned Dac chips and of
> course the TDA1543 Dac chips used in many NOS Dacs....love um. WM Dac
> chips seem to have a real fullness and lushness about them. But my
> favorite is the PCM1704UK.
>
> Rank:
> PCM1704
> TDA1543 - I'd almost rank this #1 due to its character alone but the
> PCM1704 beats it.
> Sabre
> WM
> AD
> others

Most of the above is about how identical sounding hardware can be
perceived as sounding different and ranked by someone who will not hold
to the relevant Science (is he ignorant of it or just plain willfull?)
which says that they are sonically indistinguishable.

In the case of TDA 1534 and a few others the claim lacks necessary
details. They are extra susceptible to being intentionally incorrectly
implemented and actually sounding different, in *some* (but not all)
configurations. They are the SETs of the DAC world - a retro product
intentionally implemented to function as tone controls, and not as good
amplifiers or DACs.


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[edwardthern]

arnyk wrote:
> Most of the above is about how identical sounding hardware can be
> perceived as sounding different and ranked by someone who will not hold
> to the relevant Science (is he ignorant of it or just plain willfull?)
> which says that they are sonically indistinguishable.
>
> In the case of TDA 1534 and a few others the claim lacks necessary
> details. They are extra susceptible to being intentionally incorrectly
> implemented and actually sounding different, in *some* (but not all)
> configurations. They are the SETs of the DAC world - a retro product
> intentionally implemented to function as tone controls, and not as good
> amplifiers or DACs.

So ummmmm what's your point?

All DAC chips sound the same and 1534s sound bad? To you....

Well you obviously don't have golden ears.


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[Julf]

edwardthern wrote:
> So ummmmm what's your point?
>
> All DAC chips sound the same and 1534s sound bad?

No. Most DAC chips can be made to sound the same (audibly transparent)
if used properly. Some older designs require care, and some tend to be
used in ways that cause audible coloration.

> To you....
>
> Well you obviously don't have golden ears.

I read that as implying you believe you do hear a difference.
Expectation bias and the placebo effect can be very powerful and
convincing, so unless you have taken proper measures to ensure they
can't affect the result, it is very easy to convince oneself that there
are audible changes. This is (again in absence of appropriate test
procedures) by far the most likely cause of any perceived difference.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[alfista]

The point is that rating the chips in isolation is for the most part not
meaningful, the environment you place the chip in often has more impact
on the result.
There may be virtually no differences between two chips under ideal
conditions, while two different implementations with the same chip may
display a big difference. Neither of the differences is necessarily
audible, but if the design is sufficiently bad it might be.


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[edwardthern]

alfista wrote:
> The point is that rating the chips in isolation is for the most part not
> meaningful, the environment you place the chip in often has more impact
> on the result.
> There may be virtually no differences between two chips under ideal
> conditions, while two different implementations with the same chip may
> display a big difference. Neither of the differences is necessarily
> audible, but if the design is sufficiently bad it might be.

Yes I've heard that theory before....bits-r-bits etc.

However take two DACs that have the same output stage, etc say the
audiogd ref7 and the nfb7. One uses the PCM1704 chip and the other uses
a Sabre chip. News flash... They sound different!

How about that, who would have guessed?


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[alfista]

edwardthern wrote:
> Yes I've heard that theory before....bits-r-bits etc.
>
Nowhere in my post did I in any way refer to the digital domain.

edwardthern wrote:
> However take two DACs that have the same output stage, etc say the
> audiogd ref7 and the nfb7. One uses the PCM1704 chip and the other uses
> a Sabre chip. News flash... They sound different!
That's a firm statement. Perhaps it's true, I'm not saying it's
impossible, but so far you haven't provided anything supporting that
claim.


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[edwardthern]

alfista wrote:
> The point is that rating the chips in isolation is for the most part not
> meaningful, the environment you place the chip in often has more impact
> on the result.
> There may be virtually no differences between two chips under ideal
> conditions, while two different implementations with the same chip may
> display a big difference. Neither of the differences is necessarily
> audible, but if the design is sufficiently bad it might be.

Here is an excerpt from a review of 3 dacs made by the same company in
question "Audiogd". Notice the reviewer mentions the different sound
signatures from the different dacs which all share the same topology and
analogue stage but use a different dac chip.

*\"I HAVE NOTICED THAT THE NFB-7 IS NO LONGER LISTED ON THE AUDIO-GD
WEBSITE, IN FACT NO SABRE32 CHIP DAC'S ARE CURRENTLY LISTED.

IF THIS IS A PERMANENT DECISION THEN IT IS IMO A VERY DISAPPOINTING
DEVELOPMENT.

THE SABRE32 CHIP RANGE OF DAC'S PROVIDE THE SAME LEVEL OF SOUND QUALITY
WITH A DIFFERENT SOUND SIGNATURE THAN THE PCM1704UK OR WOLFSON WITH A
MORE ENERGETIC, DYNAMIC AND EXCITING SOUND WHICH MAY SUIT A LOT OF
PEOPLE BETTER THAN THE DARKER MORE LAID BACK SOUND OF ITS WOLFSON OR
PCM1704 RIVALS.\"*

http://www.head-fi.org/t/572385/review-audio-gd-nfb-7


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[Mnyb]

edwardthern wrote:
> Here is an excerpt from a review which compares 3 dacs made by the same
> company in question "Audiogd". Notice the reviewer mentions the
> different sound signatures from the different dacs which all share the
> same topology and analogue stage but use a different dac chip.
>
> *\"THE SABRE32 CHIP RANGE OF DAC'S PROVIDE THE SAME LEVEL OF SOUND
> QUALITY WITH A DIFFERENT SOUND SIGNATURE THAN THE PCM1704UK OR WOLFSON
> WITH A MORE ENERGETIC, DYNAMIC AND EXCITING SOUND WHICH MAY SUIT A LOT
> OF PEOPLE BETTER THAN THE DARKER MORE LAID BACK SOUND OF ITS WOLFSON OR
> PCM1704 RIVALS.\"*
>
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/572385/review-audio-gd-nfb-7

But that's a sighted review ( with no measurements either ) a typical
end user testimonial ? It's does not provide any information , because
the flawed method of testing without catering for normal human
perceptive biaseses ?
Was it even level matching ( a basicrequirement ).

And is this choice of implementations the best one for these 2 DAC and
what is the Cyrus equipped with ?

And reading audio gd homepage about the products is full of audiophile
jargon and weird design decisions ? Makes me wonder .
http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB732/NFB7.32EN_Tech.htm
And actually no measurement does this guys really do measurements to
verify design depictions ? It looks like cargo cult tech to me ? So in
this case maybe there was an audible difference ? But we can't know
based on a sighted testimony.

No of these DAC chips are bad real differences if the implementation if
correctly done would be far beyond us like more than -110 dB below
output . But I still wonder . But is the audio gd product a good example
? I'm still wondering?

This kind of "review" makes me wonder a lot .

Please note that quoting of sighted testimonials does not really prove
your point .
. A sighted testing is just a story about what the tester "heard" and
experienced while using the products ,can be interesting on its own .
What he's really testing is his own biases .
In this test it was clear that he had read up about the stuff and had
clear expectations about what he was about to hear .

You can't test for subtle things this way where the influences of any
kind of bias is magnitudes larger that what's tested .

A final thought what do ESS themself thinks is the current reference
design using thier chips ? Do they have an example/reference
implementation ?
That's how they usually do it as you can't gauge the all the chip
performance quirks without having it in circuit so they usually build a
DAC themselfs to test thier own chip and implementation is big so it's a
factor how hard it is to use for a product designer .

And this is actually a general case .
If things have flat frequency response and noise and distortion is down
by -110 your are not going to hear differences with correct testing
methods . It can be a DAC and op amp a anything , the character and
source of distortion does not matter as it so unimaginable small levels
of it in a good design .

Is not the audiolab DAC series a good representation of what you do with
an ESS chip .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[arnyk]

Mnyb wrote:
> But that's a sighted review ( with no measurements either ) a typical
> end user testimonial ? It's does not provide any information , because
> the flawed method of testing without catering for normal human
> perceptive biaseses ?
> Was it even level matching ( a basicrequirement ).
>
> And is this choice of implementations the best one for these 2 DAC and
> what is the Cyrus equipped with ?
>
> And reading audio gd homepage about the products is full of audiophile
> jargon and weird design decisions ? Makes me wonder .
> http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB732/NFB7.32EN_Tech.htm
> And actually no measurement does this guys really do measurements to
> verify design depictions ? It looks like cargo cult tech to me ? So in
> this case maybe there was an audible difference ? But we can't know
> based on a sighted testimony.
>

This supplier styles himself with the moniker "Audio Gd" which at one
time was fully spelled out "Audio God". Speaks to state of mind. If one
is a diety, why would one need to measure, use scientific tests, or do
much else but reveal truth and offer perfect blessings in the form of
his gear?


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[edwardthern]

Mnyb wrote:
> But that's a sighted review ( with no measurements either ) a typical
> end user testimonial ? It's does not provide any information , because
> the flawed method of testing without catering for normal human
> perceptive biaseses ?
> Was it even level matching ( a basicrequirement ).
>
> And is this choice of implementations the best one for these 2 DAC and
> what is the Cyrus equipped with ?
>
> And reading audio gd homepage about the products is full of audiophile
> jargon and weird design decisions ? Makes me wonder .
> http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB732/NFB7.32EN_Tech.htm
> And actually no measurement does this guys really do measurements to
> verify design depictions ? It looks like cargo cult tech to me ? So in
> this case maybe there was an audible difference ? But we can't know
> based on a sighted testimony.
>
> No of these DAC chips are bad real differences if the implementation if
> correctly done would be far beyond us like more than -110 dB below
> output . But I still wonder . But is the audio gd product a good example
> ? I'm still wondering?
>
> This kind of "review" makes me wonder a lot .
>
> Please note that quoting of sighted testimonials does not really prove
> your point .
> . A sighted testing is just a story about what the tester "heard" and
> experienced while using the products ,can be interesting on its own .
> What he's really testing is his own biases .
> In this test it was clear that he had read up about the stuff and had
> clear expectations about what he was about to hear .
>
> You can't test for subtle things this way where the influences of any
> kind of bias is magnitudes larger that what's tested .
>
> A final thought what do ESS themself thinks is the current reference
> design using thier chips ? Do they have an example/reference
> implementation ?
> That's how they usually do it as you can't gauge the all the chip
> performance quirks without having it in circuit so they usually build a
> DAC themselfs to test thier own chip and implementation is big so it's a
> factor how hard it is to use for a product designer .
>
> And this is actually a general case .
> If things have flat frequency response and noise and distortion is down
> by -110 your are not going to hear differences with correct testing
> methods . It can be a DAC and op amp a anything , the character and
> source of distortion does not matter as it so unimaginable small levels
> of it in a good design .
>
> Is not the audiolab DAC series a good representation of what you do with
> an ESS chip .

Your post seems to go off on non-relevant tangents.

Let me help you focus. This thread is about subjectively ranking chips
based on hearing perceptions. Therefore, unless you can spit out
measurements when sound enters your ears none of your post is related to
this topic. Furthermore, you "feelings" towards Audiogd and its owner
are irrelevant. Note that the designer of Audiogd has won awards and
owns a multimillion dollar company which sells gear all over the world
based on quality, sound and robustness of design. Can you make such a
claim?


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[RonM]

The problem, of course, is about the very subjectivity you want to talk
about. As anyone with the slightest knowledge about perception and
conclusions knows, direct reported experience can be one of the worst
ways of getting to truth.

It's why "eyewitness" testimony in courts almost always needs to defer
to actual measurements and physical evidence. Multiple witnesses to the
same event can have completely different perceptions of what actually
happened, even while convinced that what they saw (and heard) is
accurate. They report their "truth" as accurately as they can, but this
"truth" is as often as not simply not really true.

This goes in spades for contexts where there is gain or benefit to some
party, and observations/perceptions can be shaped through social
influence -- like having one's perceptions taken as serious and valid by
others with similar interests. In the absence of grounding outside of
"subjective judgment", these kinds of discussions are nothing more than
ramblings. I was going to use another phrase including the word
"circle", but that would be rude.

If we're going to talk about subjective experience as a valid approach
to getting at what's true, we need to make sure that all the relevant
variables are controlled. This means blind judgments, and all of the
kinds of things that are discussed above.

R.



LMS on a dedicated server (FitPC3)
Transporter (Ethernet) - main listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Touch (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space
Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (WiFi) - home office
Control - Squeeze Control (Android mobile), 2 Controllers (seldom used),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 4)
Touch x 1 - spare
UE Radio x 1 - spare
Boom x 1 - spare
Controller x 1 - Spare
Duet Receiver (backup)
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[edwardthern]

RonM wrote:
> The problem, of course, is about the very subjectivity you want to talk
> about. As anyone with the slightest knowledge about perception and
> conclusions knows, direct reported experience can be one of the worst
> ways of getting to truth.
>
> It's why "eyewitness" testimony in courts almost always needs to defer
> to actual measurements and physical evidence. Multiple witnesses to the
> same event can have completely different perceptions of what actually
> happened, even while convinced that what they saw (and heard) is
> accurate. They report their "truth" as accurately as they can, but this
> "truth" is as often as not simply not really true.
>
> This goes in spades for contexts where there is gain or benefit to some
> party, and observations/perceptions can be shaped through social
> influence -- like having one's perceptions taken as serious and valid by
> others with similar interests. In the absence of grounding outside of
> "subjective judgment", these kinds of discussions are nothing more than
> ramblings. I was going to use another phrase including the word
> "circle", but that would be rude.
>
> If we're going to talk about subjective experience as a valid approach
> to getting at what's true, we need to make sure that all the relevant
> variables are controlled. This means blind judgments, and all of the
> kinds of things that are discussed above.
>
> R.


Talking about perception is never a problem with normal people.

People talk about food at restaurants, movies, books, vacation spots
etc. all the time.....no measurement data needed, only perceptional
views.

The moment you people bring up measurements you sound ridiculous.
Imagine people using your logic for the aforementioned topics.
Joe: You know I really like Sam's Burgers, they taste so good and they
fill me up too, I can hardly even eat one. Unlike Smith's burgers, they
seem greasy and make me feel bad.
Mark: What?!?!?! What kind of measurement data do you have that proves
Sam's meat is any different than Smith's meat? In fact the buns are the
same too, flour, eggs, yeast etc. All this Sam's burgers, Smith's
burgers crap is crazy. You make assumptions but have no real data to
back it up!!


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[Mnyb]

You still misses the piont . For a subjective listenings test to be used
it must be a level matched DBT . Even better a if a full suite of
measurements was done, a bunch of guys deluding each other on forum that
compares DAC tastes does not contain any information at all if there is
an audible diffrences.

And you also misses the other points that the difference between well
designed dacs are most likely far beyond what anyone is able to hear .
Hence all this is most likly placebo experiences .

I does not even have to be a DAC inject any kind of noise or whatever
-100 dB below the signal level ( which is where the diferences are ) .

This have been tried decades ago you can mix in jet engines marching
bands etc in lowest bits no one hears that.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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[edwardthern]

Mnyb wrote:
> You still misses the piont . For a subjective listenings test to be used
> it must be a level matched DBT . Even better a if a full suite of
> measurements was done, a bunch of guys deluding each other on forum that
> compares DAC tastes does not contain any information at all if there is
> an audible diffrences.
>
> And you also misses the other points that the difference between well
> designed dacs are most likely far beyond what anyone is able to hear .
> Hence all this is most likly placebo experiences .
>
> I does not even have to be a DAC inject any kind of noise or whatever
> -100 dB below the signal level ( which is where the diferences are ) .
>
> This have been tried decades ago you can mix in jet engines marching
> bands etc in lowest bits no one hears that.

You missed the point.

Take your logic and apply it to subjective "taste" test.

By your logic a DBT is required before your friend tells you that
Sonny's Ribs are better than other restaurants. Correct? Or that a
certain wine tastes better than others. Otherwise they are just a bunch
of people deluding each other trying to compare food and wine that does
not contain any information that proves a difference in taste.

In fact, because they do not have any "Measurable" data they are
delusional.


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[mlsstl]

edwardthern wrote:
> Talking about perception is never a problem with normal people.
>
> People talk about food at restaurants, movies, books, vacation spots
> etc. all the time.....no measurement data needed, only perceptional
> views.
>
> The moment you people bring up measurements you sound ridiculous.
> Imagine people using your logic for the aforementioned topics.
> Joe: You know I really like Sam's Burgers, they taste so good and they
> fill me up too, I can hardly even eat one. Unlike Smith's burgers, they
> seem greasy and make me feel bad.
> Mark: What?!?!?! What kind of measurement data do you have that proves
> Sam's meat is any different than Smith's meat? In fact the buns are the
> same too, flour, eggs, yeast etc. All this Sam's burgers, Smith's
> burgers crap is crazy. You make assumptions but have no real data to
> back it up!!

First, back in the kitchen, good chefs still measure things. That's why
the food you like is consistently good.And the best cooks understand the
scientific basis for choosing, combining and processing the ingredients.
Just having the original recipe doesn't guarantee good results if the
cook doesn't understand the cooking process.

With respect to audio, if ONLY the subjective types limited their
statements to "I like this better than that", there wouldn't be much
conflict. However, when one reads any of the audiophile press, you will
see endless discussions of technical detail in support of their
subjective conclusions. That's where most objectivists part ways -- they
are tired of hearing endless technical blather in support of someone
else's subjective opinion.

There's another aspect, too. For whatever reason, subjectivists seem
loathe to accept the fact that there are any non-audio subliminal
factors influencing their judgment. I find it quite ironic that
subjectivists often expend an enormous amount amount of time denying
subjective influences while expounding to great length on the technical
aspects , sometimes BS and sometimes not, that they believe support
their conclusions.

As I've often noted before, I'm the single biggest variable in my
system. I accept that my mood, other things that have happened that day
and my physical state at the moment have far more impact on my listening
enjoyment than which brand of DAC chip I have.


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[edwardthern]

mlsstl wrote:
> First, back in the kitchen, good chefs still measure things. That's why
> the food you like is consistently good.And the best cooks understand the
> scientific basis for choosing, combining and processing the ingredients.
> Just having the original recipe doesn't guarantee good results if the
> cook doesn't understand the cooking process.
>
> With respect to audio, if ONLY the subjective types limited their
> statements to "I like this better than that", there wouldn't be much
> conflict. However, when one reads any of the audiophile press, you will
> see endless discussions of technical detail in support of their
> subjective conclusions. That's where most objectivists part ways -- they
> are tired of hearing endless technical blather in support of someone
> else's subjective opinion.
>
> There's another aspect, too. For whatever reason, subjectivists seem
> loathe to accept the fact that there are any non-audio subliminal
> factors influencing their judgment. I find it quite ironic that
> subjectivists often expend an enormous amount amount of time denying
> subjective influences while expounding to great length on the technical
> aspects , sometimes BS and sometimes not, that they believe support
> their conclusions.
>
> As I've often noted before, I'm the single biggest variable in my
> system. I accept that my mood, other things that have happened that day
> and my physical state at the moment have far more impact on my listening
> enjoyment than which brand of DAC chip I have.

Wrong!

1) Good cooks don't need to measure 2) Measuring to obtain "DATA" to
justify food A tasting different than food B is not the same as
measuring for a recipe...LOL

The scenario you mention ie different amounts of ingredients is more
equal to comparing two dacs with different parts or even a different
number of parts. Essentially not apples to apples.


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[edwardthern]

Look you guys are grabbing at straws. Just because there are a number of
you who are confused don't make your points valid.

Bottom line = Subjective impressions based on perceptions gained via the
senses are valid....PERIOD.

You can not pick and choose which to apply needing measurement data too.
Either all subjective impressions based on the senses need measurable
data or NONE....not some do and some don't.

CHECK MATE!!!!


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[arnyk]

edwardthern wrote:
> Look you guys are grabbing at straws. Just because there are a number of
> you who are confused don't make your points valid.
>
> Bottom line = Subjective impressions based on perceptions gained via the
> senses are valid....PERIOD.
>

Absolutely wrong. For example, try to tell a traffic court judge that
you were not speeding when there is a photograph of you driving a car
and the speed of the car as measured on the spot is printed on the
photograph.

Checkmate, and make the check out to the traffic court!

The fact that a large proportion of modern audio DACs are sonically
indistinguishable by any human is a scientific fact. This is actually
pretty easy to demonstrate.


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[Mnyb]

edwardthern wrote:
> Look you guys are grabbing at straws. Just because there are a number of
> you who are confused don't make your points valid.
>
> Bottom line = Subjective impressions based on perceptions gained via the
> senses are valid....PERIOD.
>
>
> CHECK MATE!!!!

Valid for what ? Not if you want to determine of there realy is a
difference in reality or if only you perceive that there is one.

Measuring is great its a shortcut if you can do them .

But double blind level matched listening test would also do very well in
many cases.
And are actually really good for a complex issues where there are a
unknowns .
You are still using your own perceptions and subjective impressions .
But with almost all bias removed .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
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[garym]

Mnyb wrote:
> Valid for what ? Not if you want to determine of there realy is a
> difference in reality or if only you perceive that there is one.
>
> Measuring is great its a shortcut if you can do them .
>
> But double blind level matched listening test would also do very well in
> many cases.
> And are actually really good for a complex issues where there are a
> unknowns .
> You are still using your own perceptions and subjective impressions .
> But with almost all bias removed .

I appreciate your valiant efforts Mnyb, but some people simply can't be
educated.



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
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*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
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[edwardthern]

garym wrote:
> I appreciate your valiant efforts Mnyb, but some people simply can't be
> educated.

That's odd,i remember my first grade teacher saying the same thing. What
are you guys talking about?

Kidding aside, some people refuse to understand other points of view
because they are too dead set on being right.

What these people are saying is subjective opinions are not valid.

Objective test results are there only valid conclusion because they are
supported by data.

This is wrong.

They dance and move and blab around this but it's still wrong.
Subjective opinions are valid.


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[mlsstl]

edwardthern wrote:
> What these people are saying is subjective opinions are not valid.
>
> Objective test results are there only valid conclusion because they are
> supported by data.
>
You've got a straw man argument.

Subjective opinions are perfectly valid -- but ONLY for the one person
who expressed them. Unlike repeatable facts, they are not automatically
transferable to others. This is easily demonstrated by the incessant
debates among subjectivists about "the best" this or that on any audio
web site.

The objection centers only around the irony of the endless refusal of
subjectivists to admit that their opinion has been influenced in any way
by non-audio subjective factors.


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[edwardthern]

mlsstl wrote:
> You've got a straw man argument.
>
> Subjective opinions are perfectly valid -- but ONLY for the one person
> who expressed them. Unlike repeatable facts, they are not automatically
> transferable to others. This is easily demonstrated by the incessant
> debates among subjectivists about "the best" this or that on any audio
> web site.
>
> The objection centers only around the irony of the endless refusal of
> subjectivists to admit that their opinion has been influenced in any way
> by non-audio subjective factors.

The vast majority of people share the same subjective opinion. Anyone
can read reviews from various products, in this case I will stick with
the Audiogd Dacs. General consensus among most everyone that I have read
are the same relating to the sound signature of the Sabre, PCM1704 and
Wolfson Dacs. All three share the same topology and output
stages....meaning that the only discernible difference is the Dac chip.

This whole topic points to a larger more worrisome issue. This is the
hardness and rigidity of human nature and how they respond to others
with vastly different perspectives.

Subjective opinions being valid ONLY for the individual perceiving the
difference may be true, however, the worrying part is others being
unwilling to verify this perception [out of spite, hate or other
reasons]...this is to say, yes YOU or anyone could listen to the same
Dacs in question and report back their perceptions...if they are brave
enough and honest enough.


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[mlsstl]

edwardthern wrote:
> The vast majority of people share the same subjective opinion. Anyone
> can read reviews from various products, in this case I will stick with
> the Audiogd Dacs. General consensus among most everyone that I have read
> are the same relating to the sound signature of the Sabre, PCM1704 and
> Wolfson Dacs. All three share the same topology and output
> stages....meaning that the only discernible difference is the Dac chip.
>
> This whole topic points to a larger more worrisome issue. This is the
> hardness and rigidity of human nature and how they respond to others
> with vastly different perspectives.
>
> Subjective opinions being valid ONLY for the individual perceiving the
> difference may be true, however, the worrying part is others being
> unwilling to verify this perception [out of spite, hate or other
> reasons]...this is to say, yes YOU or anyone could listen to the same
> Dacs in question and report back their perceptions...if they are brave
> enough and honest enough.

If you think that "the vast majority of people share the same subjective
opinion" then you are not reading the same magazines, articles and
forums that I see. Yes, a lot of people are convinced they hear
differences among DACs, but here's the rub -- there is very little
consistency in terms of what they hear and which unit they prefer. The
preference that any one listener has for this unit over that one is a
complete roll of the dice. As stated previously, absent coaching and
suggestions, the subjective preferences of one person simply do not tell
us what another person will prefer.

As to the "hardness and rigidity of human nature", you are close to
putting yourself in protected snowflake territory. In looking back at
this thread, no one, and least of all me, has said that you're not
hearing what you hear, and that you shouldn't buy what you like.

The point I've tried to make is that your perception may have nothing to
do with the particular parts used in your DAC and may be more due to
other subjective factors. Once again, a subjectivist refuses to believe
that it is possible for non-audio subjective factors to affect his
perception.

I consider it not at all surprising that when blind testing is done, the
vast differences between different units reported during sighted testing
magically fade. However, subjectivists always get their magnifying glass
out, looking for any excuse possible to discount their reduced ability
to tell things apart when they can't also see them or know at the moment
which brand they are listening to. In my case, it doesn't bother me that
my other senses influence my hearing perception.

And your put-down -- that perhaps I and others are not "brave enough" to
actually listen to various DACs and report what we perceive -- is a
simply rude. I've got a Bel Canto C5i with a built-in DAC and am
perfectly happy with it. I've had others including Lavry and PS Audio
units in the past as well as using the built-in decoders in various CD
players and streamers. Among the quality units, I just find they don't
much affect my enjoyment of music. Right now I can spot differences in
microphone types and positions used on recordings along with how they
were mixed and processed. Good recordings sound wonderfully natural and
bad recordings sound bad, but I clearly hear what's on the recording and
I enjoy the experience if I like the music. And I never look for my
equipment to fix a bad recording.

Now, since I'm enjoying the music I play on my system, tell me again why
I should be dissatisfied and start a new DAC search based on your
subjective opinion.


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[arnyk]

edwardthern wrote:
> The vast majority of people share the same subjective opinion.
>

Since you have not provided a shred of evidence to support this claim,
there is no need for anybody in their right mind to give it credibility.

Why don't you take your OT posts to a forum that appreciate them, such
as http://www.psychforums.com/compulsive-lying/


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[Apesbrain]

arnyk wrote:
> Why don't you take your OT posts to a forum that appreciate them, such
> as...
Exactly. Part of being a responsible adult is to be aware of your
surroundings. This is a forum the spirit of which is to help people with
the practical implementation of a Squeezebox/LMS music
management/distribution system. It is not your personal soapbox for your
audio belief system. What you believe you hear does not make your ears
any more "golden" than those of anyone else here. There -are- other
forums where baseless claims like those you have made are welcomed and
endlessly debated. Wouldn't you be happier among that crowd?


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[Jeff07971]

Apesbrain wrote:
> Exactly. Part of being a responsible adult is to be aware of your
> surroundings. This is a forum the spirit of which is to help people with
> the practical implementation of a Squeezebox/LMS music
> management/distribution system. It is not your personal soapbox for your
> audio belief system. What you believe you hear does not make your ears
> any more "golden" than those of anyone else here. There -are- other
> forums where baseless claims like those you have made are welcomed and
> endlessly debated. Wouldn't you be happier among that crowd?

Whilst I agree with most of you regarding the subjective performance of
DAC etc. Edwardtherm has posted in the "Audiophile" section of the
Forum.

If we choose to berate edward here it is US who are in the wrong
surroundings and should maybe just laugh and move on without comment.

Leave people who want to discuss what they hear here and lets go back to
our areas of the forum where we measure and are objective



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[garym]

Jeff07971 wrote:
> Whilst I agree with most of you regarding the subjective performance of
> DAC etc. Edwardtherm has posted in the "Audiophile" section of the
> Forum.
>
> If we choose to berate edward here it is US who are in the wrong
> surroundings and should maybe just laugh and move on without comment.
>
> Leave people who want to discuss what they hear here and lets go back to
> our areas of the forum where we measure and are objective

I respectfully disagree. Just because the forum is labeled "audiophile"
doesn't mean that random, sloppy subjective opinions get to be thrown
around without challenge. audiophile does not equal anything goes.

The content is not just used by the people posting. I'd want others who
stumble upon the discussion in the future with a google search to not be
left with the idea that some of the mumbo jumbo espoused is actually
correct. There are some (not many, sadly) forums that are audiophile
forums but yet recognize science and engineering. I'd even argue that
hydrogenaudio is such a forum (audiophile), but with high standards for
evidence. Heck, I even think of my self as an audiophile in the old
fashioned sense of the world (lover of audio, both the content and the
means of reproduction). Sadly the term has been taken over by those who
are better termed "audiophools".



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
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*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
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[Jeff07971]

garym wrote:
> I respectfully disagree. Just because the forum is labeled "audiophile"
> doesn't mean that random, sloppy subjective opinions get to be thrown
> around without challenge. audiophile does not equal anything goes.
>
> The content is not just used by the people posting. I'd want others who
> stumble upon the discussion in the future with a google search to not be
> left with the idea that some of the mumbo jumbo espoused is actually
> correct. There are some (not many, sadly) forums that are audiophile
> forums but yet recognize science and engineering. I'd even argue that
> hydrogenaudio is such a forum (audiophile), but with high standards for
> evidence. Heck, I even think of my self as an audiophile in the old
> fashioned sense of the world (lover of audio, both the content and the
> means of reproduction). Sadly the term has been taken over by those who
> are better termed "audiophools".

I accept your respectfull dissagreement :)

I had actually drafted a long response but found myself agreeing with
you in all aspects ! :)

So I'll bow out !



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[edwardthern]

Jeff07971 wrote:
> I accept your respectfull dissagreement :)
>
> I had actually drafted a long response but found myself agreeing with
> you in all aspects ! :)
>
> So I'll bow out !

Don't let him bully you into bowing out.

Audiophiles, Audiophools or who ever has a right to comment on what they
hear and what they like. Message boards all over the net [esp audio
forums] are over run with these bit-r-bits and measurements mean
everything people. They attack like a bunch of sharks. No I don't feel
bad for posting the order in which I like Dac chips based off my
perception. No I won't be bullied into backing down and recanting what I
perceive to hear. In many ways "Audiophile" means people who "think"
they hear differences in many things for many reasons ie power cords,
IC's and yes even software or operating systems. No just because you
have been here forever and have over 10K posts does not mean you out
rank my own senses. He doesn't want people to Google into this thread
and think you can have the freedom to express their feelings about
product X without measurements to back it up....to bad.


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[Julf]

edwardthern wrote:
> Audiophiles, Audiophools or who ever has a right to comment on what they
> hear and what they like. Message boards all over the net [esp audio
> forums] are over run with these bit-r-bits and measurements mean
> everything people. They attack like a bunch of sharks. No I don't feel
> bad for posting the order in which I like Dac chips based off my
> perception. No I won't be bullied into backing down and recanting what I
> perceive to hear. In many ways "Audiophile" means people who "think"
> they hear differences in many things for many reasons ie power cords,
> IC's and yes even software or operating systems. No just because you
> have been here forever and have over 10K posts does not mean you out
> rank my own senses. He doesn't want people to Google into this thread
> and think you can have the freedom to express their feelings about
> product X without measurements to back it up....to bad.

At this point I think we can all agree edwardthern is a troll.

> Obviously there are strong feelings about this subject and of course its
> been debated for years if not decades or longer. But if you people [you
> know who you are] are so offended by me or people like me posting on
> this forum our own "Subjective" impressions then have the Mod delete
> this post and remove my account. Otherwise I will continue to post
> exactly how I FEEL and PERCEIVE with my senses.

A troll that actually knows there really aren't any moderators around
any more.

This might be one of the few justified cased of an ignore list entry.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[edwardthern]

Julf wrote:
> At this point I think we can all agree edwardthern is a troll.
>
>
>
> A troll that actually knows there really aren't any moderators around
> any more.
>
> This might be one of the few justified cased of an ignore list entry.

No I am not a troll, calling me one is a weak and lame tactic.
"We can all agree"....who are you? Did I stumble upon a farm of sheep?
Are you one of the leaders of the heard?


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[d6jg]

A heard of sheep.
Was that a deliberate play on words?



*Vortexbox LMS 7.9 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
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[edwardthern]

d6jg wrote:
> A heard of sheep.
> Was that a deliberate play on words?

Nope that's just my phone's spell check.... You wouldn't be trolling me
would you?


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[arnyk]

edwardthern wrote:
> No I am not a troll, calling me one is a weak and lame tactic.
>

I'm of the opinion that if the shoe fits, wear it.

>
> "We can all agree"....who are you?
>

People who favor science over superstition, systematic errors, and
myth.

>
> Did I stumble upon a farm of sheep?
>

Looks to me like you stumbled out of the sheep farm of poorly informed
audiophiles.

>
> Are you one of the leaders of the herd?

http://www.stereophile.com/news/050905debate/#YbGgLwIllD67zVUF.97


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[Julf]

edwardthern wrote:
> No I am not a troll, calling me one is a weak and lame tactic.

"A troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting
arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or
off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum,
chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an
emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic
discussion, often for the troll's amusement."

> "We can all agree"....who are you? Did I stumble upon a farm of sheep?
> Are you one of the leaders of the herd?

I rest my case...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[edwardthern]

Julf wrote:
> "A troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting
> arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or
> off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum,
> chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an
> emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic
> discussion, often for the troll's amusement."
>
>
>
> I rest my case...

Wrong!

The message I posted was on topic and it was you people who attacked
me....

Be a man and take responsibility for your attack, don't try and switch
the blame and take the female victims role.


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[garym]

edwardthern wrote:
>
> Be a man and take responsibility for your attack, don't try and switch
> the blame and take the female victims role.

and a sexist troll as well!



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[edwardthern]

edwardthern wrote:
> Wrong!
>
> The message I posted was on topic and it was you people who attacked
> me....
>
> Be a man and take responsibility for your attack, don't try and switch
> the blame and take the female victims role.

Yes I did say Sheep, I call it like I see it.

Very few of you posted in ways that would create an atmosphere of
discussion, rather instead you post with an argumentative, demeaning
attitude that puts people on the defense. Then when someone fights back
you run and cry Troll. Sheep in the sense that there seems to be some
obvious leaders and followers. Leaders try to make strong attacks while
the followers make small little jabs here and there.


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[Julf]

edwardthern wrote:
> The message I posted was on topic and it was you people who attacked
> me....

To quote yourself:

edwardthern wrote:
> Wrong!

If you go back to the beginning of the thread, you'll notice that after
some light-hearted joking not directed at anyone specific, and some
fact-based and balanced responses, there was this one:

edwardthern wrote:
> So ummmmm what's your point?
>
> All DAC chips sound the same and 1534s sound bad? To you....
>
> Well you obviously don't have golden ears.

That was the point where things went downhill.

> Be a man and take responsibility for your attack, don't try and switch
> the blame and take the female victims role.

Perhaps a case of 'projection'
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection)?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[edwardthern]

Julf wrote:
> To quote yourself:
>
>
>
> If you go back to the beginning of the thread, you'll notice that after
> some light-hearted joking not directed at anyone specific, and some
> fact-based and balanced responses, there was this one:
>
>
>
> That was the point where things went downhill.
>
>
>
> Perhaps a case of 'projection'
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection)?

The golden rear comment was obviously a joke.

Who in their right mind would be offended by that our take that
serious?

Another weak attempt to point the finger. Face it your attacks were
unjustified, and yes they were attacks. Bottom line is people have the
right to voice their opinion on their on subjective perception. Which
was my optional post.


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[Julf]

edwardthern wrote:
> Bottom line is people have the right to voice their opinion on their on
> subjective perception.

And others have the right to question the causes of that perception.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[edwardthern]

Julf wrote:
> And others have the right to question the causes of that perception.

Wrong!

I do not have the right to question (say you are wrong) anything you
perceive with your senses.

If you say this steak tastes better than that one, this flower smells
better than that flower, this person's voice sounds better than that
person etc. You are right to feel that way..... This simple fact should
be obvious.


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[Julf]

edwardthern wrote:
> Wrong!
>
> I do not have the right to question (say you are wrong) anything you
> perceive with your senses.
>
> If you say this steak tastes better than that one, this flower smells
> better than that flower, this person's voice sounds better than that
> person etc. You are right to feel that way..... This simple fact should
> be obvious.

Please re-read what I wrote:

Julf wrote:
> And others have the right to question *the causes of* that perception.

(emphasis added)

You have every right to prefer A over B. I have every right to state
that your subjective preference doesn't, as such, say anything abut
there actually being (or not) a physical difference between A and B.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[arnyk]

edwardthern wrote:
> Wrong!
>
> I do not have the right to question (say you are wrong) anything you
> perceive with your senses.
>

In what alternative universe?

Begs the quesiton, why post your perceptions in a public forum? If
there is no presumption that people will comment in them, then to do so
is like standing on top of a mountain surrounded by empty space and
shout your theses.


>
> If you say this steak tastes better than that one, this flower smells
> better than that flower, this person's voice sounds better than that
> person etc. You are right to feel that way..... This simple fact should
> be obvious.

False. In reality the steak only tastes better to you. Why is that of
interest to anybody else?

What you've done is ascribe some general characteristic, namely better
taste to the steak. You comment may be of interest to others who are
looking for tasty steaks. And, steaks can have flavor properties that
are of more general interest such as the taste of a properly-aged but
not rancid steak or one that is tender and has good mouth feel but is
not pasty, mushy, or tough.

OTOH as stated we don't know what you are looking for in a steak. You
may be looking for a steak that tastes just like the one that your aunt
Marsha served you in 1998. Also, bias affects the flavor of food, often
quite profoundly. My family and I have done a lot of backwoods camping
and found that food that is a joy to taste after a day outside canoeing
and portaging tastes pretty mediocre as a Thanksgiving dinner.

The bottom line is that a claim that a personal opinion is sacrosanct is
false. It may be sacrosanct or not.

In the domain of audio, many people have experimented with
bias-controlled testing and found that many components do not audibly
color the sound at all. In the world of steak, this is like a steak that
has no flavor at all. In a reproduction system this is highly desirable
even though it would make a poor steak - and that is where the
comparison breaks down.

*Preferences are meaningless* if there are no differences, and in audio
no audible differences is not only possible, it is commonplace with many
categories of components and DACs are a common case of that.

So thanks, for the hearty laughs at your expense with your elaborate
descriptions of your preferences for audio gear that in fact you can't
tell apart by sound quality. But like most people, our interest in that
sort of futile prattle is limited, and enough is enough.


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[edwardthern]

arnyk wrote:
> In what alternative universe?
>
> Begs the quesiton, why post your perceptions in a public forum? If
> there is no presumption that people will comment in them, then to do so
> is like standing on top of a mountain surrounded by empty space and
> shout your theses.
>
>
>
>
> False. In reality the steak only tastes better to you. Why is that of
> interest to anybody else?
>
> What you've done is ascribe some general characteristic, namely better
> taste to the steak. You comment may be of interest to others who are
> looking for tasty steaks. And, steaks can have flavor properties that
> are of more general interest such as the taste of a properly-aged but
> not rancid steak or one that is tender and has good mouth feel but is
> not pasty, mushy, or tough.
>
> OTOH as stated we don't know what you are looking for in a steak. You
> may be looking for a steak that tastes just like the one that your aunt
> Marsha served you in 1998. Also, bias affects the flavor of food, often
> quite profoundly. My family and I have done a lot of backwoods camping
> and found that food that is a joy to taste after a day outside canoeing
> and portaging tastes pretty mediocre as a Thanksgiving dinner.
>
> The bottom line is that a claim that a personal opinion is sacrosanct is
> false. It may be sacrosanct or not.
>
> In the domain of audio, many people have experimented with
> bias-controlled testing and found that many components do not audibly
> color the sound at all. In the world of steak, this is like a steak that
> has no flavor at all. In a reproduction system this is highly desirable
> even though it would make a poor steak - and that is where the
> comparison breaks down.
>
> *Preferences are meaningless if there are no differences*, and in audio
> no audible differences is not only possible, it is commonplace with many
> categories of components and DACs are a common case of that.
>
> So thanks, for the hearty laughs at your expense with your elaborate
> descriptions of your preferences for audio gear that in fact you can't
> tell apart by sound quality. But like most people, our interest in that
> sort of futile prattle is limited, and enough is enough.

You people are really helping me to understand the type of people who
gather here.... Not the type of people I'd normally keep company
with.... Very low class.


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[edwardthern]

At this point I'm going to take the high road and leave you people to
your unrealistic views of life.

Truly a monkey can act like a human to dinner extent but those intellect
will never reach that beyond a monkey.


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[MichaelJ]

edwardthern wrote:
>
> Truly a monkey can act like a human to dinner extent but those intellect
> will never reach that beyond a monkey.

After watching from the sidelines, I've got to say this is the most
coherent thing you've posted.
Please don't go away mad...just go away.


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[arnyk]

edwardthern wrote:
> You people are really helping me to understand the type of people who
> gather here.... Not the type of people I'd normally keep company
> with.... Very low class.

The word that seems to have escaped you Edward is: educated.

What you don't know and how you treat other people pretty well tells it
all.


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[Wombat]

edwardthern wrote:
> The golden rear comment was obviously a joke.
Now it starts to make sense!
golden ear -> golden rear -> anal probe -> abductees



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[Jeff07971]

Wombat wrote:
> Now it starts to make sense!
> golden ear -> golden rear -> anal probe -> abductees
>
> 21666

Oh well I had tried to stay out of this now, but that is F**King funny
:) LMFAO



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[pablolie]

edwardthern wrote:
>
> Obviously there are strong feelings about this subject and of course its
> been debated for years if not decades or longer.

Actually no circuit designer debates it. Check out
http://www.esstech.com/files/1414/4095/2154/ES9018S_PB_v1.7_140916.pdf
and tell us what does it tell you?

Maybe that the chip is not as important as the "A" circuit design in the
backend. Your hangup on the AC chip without any attention to the
follow-up circuitry indicates you don't understand where the real magic
happens....



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine (on VMware Workstation 12) running Ubuntu 16.04
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System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
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[arnyk]

Jeff07971 wrote:
>
>
> If we choose to berate edward here it is US who are in the wrong
> surroundings and should maybe just laugh and move on without comment.
>
>

Is correcting his misunderstandings of how audio works "Berating"?

The exact world view that he is espousing is not about being an
audiophile or a lover of high quality sound. What he has fallen in love
with appears to be a love of imaginary and/or irrelevant properties of
audio gear.

>
> Leave people who want to discuss what they hear here and lets go back to
> our areas of the forum where we measure and are objective

Thing is, placebophiles are not discussing real sonic differences that
they are hearing, they trying to advance their illusory experiences.
Illusion, as in does not really exist. When you apply proper scientific
techniques to audio comparisons some of the specific comparisons he has
claimed do not sound as he said or even different.


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[Wombat]

An exchange elsewhere with other "abductees" will be more satisfying in
the long run.



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[garym]

edwardthern wrote:
> That's odd,i remember my first grade teacher saying the same thing. What
> are you guys talking about?
>
> Kidding aside, some people refuse to understand other points of view
> because they are too dead set on being right.
>
> What these people are saying is subjective opinions are not valid.
>
> Objective test results are there only valid conclusion because they are
> supported by data.
>
> This is wrong.
>
> They dance and move and blab around this but it's still wrong.
> Subjective opinions are valid.

The evidence burden falls upon the person making the claim. You've
provided no valid evidence for any of your claims. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

That said, one is always free to enjoy their own subjective "truths" as
long as they don't harm others. If you like one DAC more than another,
you're free to think whatever you want. But we're talking about science
and engineering here. Not opinions.**

**Lots of people post opinions where opinions matter on this forum and
there are no arguments. For example, people post opinions about what
sort of music they like, which artist's albums are their "best", etc.
These are the areas were subjective opinions truly are OK. There is
little in the way of science and engineering that can tell me which
period of Bob Dylan music I prefer the most that is generalizable to a
larger population.

Note: others have pointed out in this forum that the audiophilia
disease (denial of science and engineering) that has affected many in
this hobby does in fact do harm. It is a tip of the larger societal
problem where we now have many people who act as if science doesn't
matter and all opinions are "equal" regardless of source (expertise,
evidence, etc.).



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[edwardthern]

garym wrote:
> The evidence burden falls upon the person making the claim. You've
> provided no valid evidence for any of your claims. See:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
>
> That said, one is always free to enjoy their own subjective "truths" as
> long as they don't harm others. If you like one DAC more than another,
> you're free to think whatever you want. But we're talking about science
> and engineering here. Not opinions.**
>
> **Lots of people post opinions where opinions matter on this forum and
> there are no arguments. For example, people post opinions about what
> sort of music they like, which artist's albums are their "best", etc.
> These are the areas where subjective opinions truly are OK. There is
> little in the way of science and engineering that can tell me which
> period of Bob Dylan music I prefer the most that is generalizable to a
> larger population.
>
> Note: others have pointed out in this forum that the audiophilia
> disease (denial of science and engineering) that has affected many in
> this hobby does in fact do harm. It is a tip of the larger societal
> problem where we now have many people who act as if science doesn't
> matter and all opinions are "equal" regardless of source (expertise,
> evidence, etc.).

Since when did listening to music become a science?


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[garym]

edwardthern wrote:
> Since when did listening to music become a science?

Huh? I just made the point that personal music preference is NOT a
science. Perhaps improving your reading comprehension would improve your
educability regarding the science and engineering of music
*reproduction* technology.



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[edwardthern]

garym wrote:
> Huh? I just made the point that personal music preference is NOT a
> science. Perhaps improving your reading comprehension would improve your
> educability regarding the science and engineering of music
> *reproduction* technology.

You're in the wrong thread then buddy. This topic is about listening to
music.


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[garym]

edwardthern wrote:
> You're in the wrong thread then buddy. This topic is about listening to
> music.

In the words of your first grade teacher, "<sigh>"



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[edwardthern]

garym wrote:
> In the words of your first grade teacher, "<sigh>"

Science class is down the hall...bye!


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[edwardthern]

Any more propeller heads here?

Go down the hall to the right and discuss your science please. This
thread is about listening to music. People here have the right to
express what their senses perceive.


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[garym]

edwardthern wrote:
> Any more propeller heads here?
>
> Go down the hall to the right and discuss your science please. This
> thread is about listening to music. People here have the right to
> express what their senses perceive.

keep digging deeper ... I'm enjoying this.

[image:
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/895/845/2f9.jpg]



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
(all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win8(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Transporter, Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
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[garym]

edwardthern wrote:
> That's odd,i remember my first grade teacher saying the same thing.

Hmmmm, somehow that doesn't surprise me.



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
(all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win8(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Transporter, Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
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[edwardthern]

Mnyb wrote:
> Valid for what ? Not if you want to determine of there realy is a
> difference in reality or if only you perceive that there is one.
>
> Measuring is great its a shortcut if you can do them .
>
> But double blind level matched listening test would also do very well in
> many cases.
> And are actually really good for a complex issues where there are a
> unknowns .
> You are still using your own perceptions and subjective impressions .
> But with almost all bias removed .

Well for this I did not do a DBT, but I did do a DBT to compare
Squeezelite and MPD. I posted a thread on that....

Because someone could not make a valid argument to explain how I heard a
difference they claimed it was due to variability in the components in
identical Dacs...even variability in the solder inside...what nonsense.


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[Mnyb]

edwardthern wrote:
> Well for this I did not do a DBT, but I did do a DBT to compare
> Squeezelite and MPD. I posted a thread on that....
>
> Because someone could not make a valid argument to explain how I heard a
> difference they claimed it was due to variability in the components in
> identical Dacs...even variability in the solder inside...what nonsense.

Yes you did a DBT . But there must be something wrong .

Its about probability.

Some parameter is off I did not do the test with you .

That claim is very very improbable, if all conciviable parameters where
the same and the output really was bit perfect .

By that i mean that there is no mechanism that could really change the
sound of the conected DAC .

Its not *you* these kind of cliams come all the time from every
archetypal audiophile out there .

Almost everything you have claimed as audiophile truths in our forum has
been thoroughly debunked decades ago .
There realy is nothing new.

Fantastic claims require very ver solid evidence .

As I told you I sympathise. I been like you a decade ago and i was also
convinced every bizarre audiophile tweak I did to my system made a real
differences , because i could "hear" it .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[edwardthern]

Mnyb wrote:
> Yes you did a DBT . But there must be something wrong .
>
> Its about probability.
>
> Some parameter is off I did not do the test with you .
>
> That claim is very very improbable, if all conciviable parameters where
> the same and the output really was bit perfect .
>
> By that i mean that there is no mechanism that could really change the
> sound of the conected DAC .
>
> Its not *you* these kind of cliams come all the time from every
> archetypal audiophile out there .
>
> Almost everything you have claimed as audiophile truths in our forum has
> been thoroughly debunked decades ago .
> There realy is nothing new.
>
> Fantastic claims require very ver solid evidence .
>
> As I told you I sympathise. I been like you a decade ago and i was also
> convinced every bizarre audiophile tweak I did to my system made a real
> differences , because i could "hear" it .

Okay, you win.

Not that I agree with you, I still think you are wrong, but I conceit to
going back and forth on this subject.

Sorry I can't unhear what I heard, even if I did see pages of data that
PROVE otherwise.

I extend my hand for a firm handshake.


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[mlsstl]

edwardthern wrote:
> Wrong!
>
> 1) Good cooks don't need to measure 2) Measuring to obtain "DATA" to
> justify food A tasting different than food B is not the same as
> measuring for a recipe...LOL
>
> The scenario you mention ie different amounts of ingredients is more
> equal to comparing two dacs with different parts or even a different
> number of parts. Essentially not apples to apples.

There you go again, talking about things which you apparently know
nothing about. I'm married to a chef who graduated from Cordon Bleu 37
years ago. Professionals do measure and understand the importance of
doing so. Yes, a lot of home cooks do play it by ear, and sometimes,
even for professionals, a measurement may need adjustment due to factors
such as humidity or spice potency, etc., but again, the good cook
understands the reasons behind that adjustment. They aren't just
throwing things in the pot by the seat of their pants.

And congrats on confirming your subjectivist status, illustrating
clearly that you are unwilling to accept any the existence of any
non-audio factors influencing your opinions. It MUST be the electronic
parts that are 100% responsible for my perception!


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[edwardthern]

This isn't going anywhere.

You guys obviously and not Audiophiles like me:p I think that's the
first major problem.

You have all said your peace and I do understand where you are coming
from....I used to be a normal person too.

None of you have addressed my question specifically about comparing
food. I don't really expect you too, but instead you keep dancing
around.


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[Apesbrain]

edwardthern wrote:
>
> You guys obviously and not Audiophiles like me:p I think that's the
> first major problem.

Please stop posting this nonsense. It is not welcome here.


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[edwardthern]

Apesbrain wrote:
> Please stop posting this nonsense. It is not welcome here.

Are you the gate keeper?

Its better than posting like this stuff is life and death. You need to
take a deep breath and relax, its really not that serious.

FYI, topics and discussions like this have been going on forever and
their is and never will be a resolution. Party A always sticks to their
guns and Party B always sticks to their guns....its a futile situation
that leads to nowhere.

Besides that, Audiophiles like ME around the net have posted over and
over and over again that we DO hear differences. So no matter what YOU
or anyone says, you can't make me UN-hear what I heard.....got it?:cool:


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[arnyk]

edwardthern wrote:
> This isn't going anywhere.
>
> You guys obviously and not Audiophiles like me:p I think that's the
> first major problem.
>

Typical of the imaginative statements that you make. There is simply not
enough evidence to make this kind of a sweeping claim.

>
> You have all said your peace and I do understand where you are coming
> from....I used to be a normal person too.
>

Thanks for admitting to your mental abnormality.

BTW, you don't have to be delusional to be an audiophile, but many are.

>
> None of you have addressed my question specifically about comparing
> food. I don't really expect you too, but instead you keep dancing
> around.

More highly defective logic. The topic is audio and sound quality, not
food. Trying to distract people from on-topic posts to off-topic posts
is a common strategy of people who know that they have lost the
argument.


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[d6jg]

This is a crazy argument.

Had it been top Pink Floyd albums and I said my rank was

WYWH
DSOTM
Animals
etc

No one would be arguing about it as clearly the ranking is my ranking
and it is subjective and not measurable in any way.

Someone else might think differently but as there are no measurements
available to prove or disprove which is best in "my" opinion we would
all accept that each person could have different views.

The problem here is that the subject matter is measurable yet the "this
is the top DAC because I think it is" claim is continued in the face of
people saying they can measure the facts. The criteria for measurement
weren't stated at the outset.

If I said top Pink Floyd albums by sales then clearly that is a
different matter. (We could then argue about the reference source and
whether downloads should be included in "sales" but you take my point).



*Vortexbox LMS 7.9 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
*Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 ->
Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B&W P7
*Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755
-> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
*Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
*Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones
*Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 ->
Wharfedale Modus Cubes
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[bakker_be]

edwardthern wrote:
> Wrong!
>
> 1) Good cooks don't need to measure 2) Measuring to obtain "DATA" to
> justify food A tasting different than food B is not the same as
> measuring for a recipe...LOL
>
> The scenario you mention ie different amounts of ingredients is more
> equal to comparing two dacs with different parts or even a different
> number of parts. Essentially not apples to apples.
1) Good cooks (who sell the food they prepare) DO measure, to ensure a
consistent quality. (Full disclosure: I'm a trained food professional,
albeit a baker, pastrycook, chocolatier, glacier)



Main System: Touch; Marantz SR-5004; TMA Premium 905; TMA Premium 901;
BK Monolith+ FF; HDI Dune Smart D1; Pioneer PDP-LX5090H
Workshop: iPad 32GB Wifi + Squeezepad (local playback activated)
Wherever needed: Acer Iconia Tab A700 + Squeezeplayer
Car: BananaPi LMS + Squeezeplayer on Android phone - Controller TBD ...
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[toby10]

edwardthern wrote:
> Talking about perception is never a problem with normal people.
>
> People talk about food at restaurants, movies, books, vacation spots
> etc. all the time.....no measurement data needed, only perceptional
> views.
>

It's only a problem if you confuse subjective and objective.

People are relaying their feelings & emotions about these, not actual
measurements. Same with colors in a room. Room 1 has white walls, room
2 has brown walls. People will *feel* cooler in room 1 and the same
people will *feel* warmer in room 2. But when you actually *measure*
the temperature it is exactly 72 f degrees in both rooms.


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[toby10]

edwardthern wrote:
> The moment you people bring up measurements you sound ridiculous.
> Imagine people using your logic for the aforementioned topics.
>

We did, you just don't like the logical answers. :)

Feeling warmer and actually being warmer are two different things, and
definitely measurable. For you, you don't want data (measurements) to
prove if you are actually warmer, you are satisfied with only feeling
warmer. That's fine, but it's not accurate. It is still 72 f in the
room where you *feel* it is warmer than 72 f.

What is ridiculous is refusing to even try to measure what you feel when
doing so might alter your perception and refusing to accept feelings
might be distorting reality. Your feelings don't change the data
(actual temperature), only your perception of it.


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[RonM]

edwardthern wrote:
> Talking about perception is never a problem with normal people.
>
> People talk about food at restaurants, movies, books, vacation spots
> etc. all the time.....no measurement data needed, only perceptional
> views.
>
> The moment you people bring up measurements you sound ridiculous.
> Imagine people using your logic for the aforementioned topics.
> Joe: You know I really like Sam's Burgers, they taste so good and they
> fill me up too, I can hardly even eat one. Unlike Smith's burgers, they
> seem greasy and make me feel bad.
> Mark: What?!?!?! What kind of measurement data do you have that proves
> Sam's meat is any different than Smith's meat? In fact the buns are the
> same too, flour, eggs, yeast etc. All this Sam's burgers, Smith's
> burgers crap is crazy. You make assumptions but have no real data to
> back it up!!

There is so much wrong with this assertion it's hard to know where to
begin. But I'll try, and then I'm out of this pointless conversation.


- We talk about food and movies and books and music using subjective
language - tastes good, looks good, sounds good. It's all about the
content of the experience
- But we also talk about the form in which the content is presented.
Was the movie out of focus? Was the supposedly hot soup cold? Did the
live recording reflect the actual performance? These are more
objective elements.
- You might be at Sam's burger place, and you can see the line cooks
preparing your meal, sometimes it's a man, sometimes a woman. You are
convinced that the meal prepared by the woman is better, but maybe
that's because you have the deep belief that women are better cooks
than men. How to resolve? A proper blind test.
- In any good restaurant, there is always a formula for the cooking,
whether it's for a Big Mac or for a Duck Cassoulet. Someone makes the
recipe, with ingredients and procedure, and others typically execute
it. You might think (perhaps correctly) that a particular McDonald's
makes a better Big Mac than another, but to be sure you'd have to do
some sort of blind check to make sure it wasn't just your preference
for the decor at one of them. Your friends might each buy a Big Mac
at one of the restaurants at the same time on multiple occasions and
bring them to you at neutral location and not tell you which was
which. Better if on each occasion one bought two and the other one,
and then switched it up. And if you can reliably tell which two were
the same, THEN you can turn your mind to the subjective impression of
which is better.
-


The point is that the biggest variable is the content, but that the form
is also important and can impact our perception of the content. But the
form, the way in which the content is presented to us, is actually
something that can be objectively studied, starting with a dispassionate
analysis of whether we can actually tell the difference between two
different ways of presentation (which would include things like
different DACs, different cables, etc.), properly controlled for factors
like volume that could influence perception. Only IF we can perceive a
difference, any difference, can we legitimately pursue the question of
"better or worse". And we can ONLY validly determine whether a
difference can be perceived through properly controlled (generally
blind) procedures.

It's not about rejecting subjective experience. It's about avoiding
equating subjective experience with something resembling "truth".



LMS on a dedicated server (FitPC3)
Transporter (Ethernet) - main listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Touch (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space
Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (WiFi) - home office
Control - Squeeze Control (Android mobile), 2 Controllers (seldom used),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 4)
Touch x 1 - spare
UE Radio x 1 - spare
Boom x 1 - spare
Controller x 1 - Spare
Duet Receiver (backup)
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[mlsstl]

A nice, but wasted comment, Ron.

Edward fails to see the irony in claiming to be a subjectivist who's
judgment is not influenced by subjective factors.


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[doctor_big]

If Edward goes away you'll have no one to ridicule. Be careful what you
wish for.

Hey - how come ralphy-boy hasn't chipped in about the evil audiophile
press yet?




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[arnyk]

doctor_big wrote:
> If Edward goes away you'll have no one to ridicule. Be careful what you
> wish for.
>

What is your preferred treatment for people who selfishly promote
anti-science and anti-reason?


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[pablolie]

edwardthern wrote:
> .... Not one of you have the common decency to start a conversation that
> promotes dialogue, rather you attack....grown men none the less.

I didn't join the discussion, but the way I read things is that you
misread disagreement with a personal attack. In Internet discussions, we
have to learn to be told with people vehemently disagreeing and telling
us we're utterly wrong.

Personally - I am somewhere inbetween. I think the audio hobby is
irrational by definition, and we all have our pockets of craziness to
define ourselves as "audiophiles" and read this forum. 99% people out
there are perfectly happy with their smartphone and the free earbuds
that shipped with them. I for one fully enjoy merely visual improvements
to my system, and freely admit I enjoy it more if it pleases not only my
ears, but also my visual and tactile senses. I don't claim I can hear a
difference, but I simply enjoy it more, and psychoacoustics are relevant
to the overall experience. I am pretty sure my favorite jazzband sounds
better to me in a suave Manhattan cafe than in a Bronx trash disposal
site. There's nothing wrong with psychoacoustics. They matter. But
scientifically speaking - we should be careful about making claims that
an experiment is reproducible. There are tons of audio tests out there
that show it all comes down to 50% chance (basically, accident). But I
for one have never confused ABC tests with simple musical enjoyment.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine (on VMware Workstation 12) running Ubuntu 16.04
+ LMS 7.9
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem
DreamCatcher + Velodyne Minivee Sub
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado
PS500e/Shure 1540
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[edwardthern]

pablolie wrote:
> I didn't join the discussion, but the way I read things is that you
> misread disagreement with a personal attack. In Internet discussions, we
> have to learn to be told with people vehemently disagreeing and telling
> us we're utterly wrong.
>
> Personally - I am somewhere inbetween. I think the audio hobby is
> irrational by definition, and we all have our pockets of craziness to
> define ourselves as "audiophiles" and read this forum. 99% people out
> there are perfectly happy with their smartphone and the free earbuds
> that shipped with them. I for one fully enjoy merely visual improvements
> to my system, and freely admit I enjoy it more if it pleases not only my
> ears, but also my visual and tactile senses. I don't claim I can hear a
> difference, but I simply enjoy it more, and psychoacoustics are relevant
> to the overall experience. I am pretty sure my favorite jazzband sounds
> better to me in a suave Manhattan cafe than in a Bronx trash disposal
> site. There's nothing wrong with psychoacoustics. They matter. But
> scientifically speaking - we should be careful about making claims that
> an experiment is reproducible. There are tons of audio tests out there
> that show it all comes down to 50% chance (basically, accident). But I
> for one have never confused ABC tests with simple musical enjoyment.

Read this carefully.

I...Nor Anyone....NEEDS to be careful of claiming they perceived
ANYTHING with THEIR OWN, I repeat THEIR OWN * T H E I R O W N ! ! ! !
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! * senses.

Every human being on the face of the PLANET HAS A RIGHT!!!!!!!!to say
they "FEEL" anything about anything. NOBODY has a right to tell anyone
to dismiss what their body perceives as reality.....PERIOD

IF ANY HUMAN BEING READING THIS CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THIS THEY ARE SICK.


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[edwardthern]

You are are all sick F***KS and not to mention STUPID FU**KS to hold,
and cling to the belief that you have the right to ridicule and badger
someone for sensing ANYTHING with their own senses.

In the year 2016 we still have such primitive and stupid mindsets....its
ridiculous


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[edwardthern]

And some of you stupid arseholes what to claim to be educated and
intelligent...HUH what kind of degree do you have? A Masters in being a
closed minded fool?

Well I'm an RN...I save lives for a living...DAILY. What one of you
idiots can claim to have saved a life even once?


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[mlsstl]

edwardthern wrote:
> You are are all sick F***KS and not to mention STUPID FU**KS to hold,
> and cling to the belief that you have the right to ridicule and badger
> someone for sensing ANYTHING with their own senses.
>
> In the year 2016 we still have such primitive and stupid mindsets....its
> ridiculous

Goodness. You are really getting yourself worked up.

And you continue to miss the point. This isn't about your personal
perception and your right to state it. You have been called out for
treating your personal perception as an unassailable fact.

You seem unable to understand that your perception does not constitute a
scientific fact in and of itself. Facts exist and stay the same
regardless of who is examining them -- that's the basis of the
scientific method. Others can come along are replicate the experiment
and get the same test results. If results cannot be reliably replicated
by others, then science is unwilling to call the conclusion of the first
person a fact.

Opinions, however, are a dime a dozen and only have value for the person
expressing them. They are not facts. Opinions vary based on our mood,
physical condition, upbringing, expectations and a whole host of other
variables that are not uniform between people.

You might want to check out a book titled "A Mind of Its Own - How Your
Brain Distorts and Deceives" by Dr. Cordelia Fine. It's not about audio
per se but it gives an excellent and very readable overview of the
research that explains how easily our brain can be fooled, with our
being convinced that we haven't been.

We don't cease to be human simply because the subject is audio. We're
just that that special.


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[edwardthern]

mlsstl wrote:
>
> You seem unable to understand that your perception does not constitute a
> scientific fact in and of itself. l.


No IDIOT, I never said my perception = a scientific FACT.

I said my perception is my perception PERIOD.

I said repeatedly that science can not prove my perception yet it is
real to me....

Dark Energy.Matter can not be measured either, only we can measure
directly a very small % of reality....good thing scientist are not
idiots too, otherwise they might say "Hey we can't measure the 80% +/-
of whats missing so lets just say it does not exist"

You fools think you are so smart...but you are really far more stupid in
a basic common sense level than a child.


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[mlsstl]

edwardthern wrote:
> No IDIOT, I never said my perception = a scientific FACT.
>
> I said my perception is my perception PERIOD.
>
> I said repeatedly that science can not prove my perception yet it is
> real to me....
>
> Dark Energy.Matter can not be measured either, only we can measure
> directly a very small % of reality....good thing scientist are not
> idiots too, otherwise they might say "Hey we can't measure the 80% +/-
> of whats missing so lets just say it does not exist"
>
> You fools think you are so smart...but you are really far more stupid in
> a basic common sense level than a child.

Thank you for the insults!

You seem rather unhappy. Tell us again why you're here.

(P.S., If you're trying to raise your blood pressure, you'll probably
get even better results over at hydrogenaud.io...)


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[garym]

mlsstl wrote:
> (P.S., If you're trying to raise your blood pressure, you'll probably
> get even better results over at hydrogenaud.io...)

Nahh, he'd be banned within two posts.



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
(all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win8(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Transporter, Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
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[d6jg]

pablolie wrote:
> I didn't join the discussion, but the way I read things is that you
> misdiagnosed disagreement with a personal attack. In Internet
> discussions, we have to learn to be told with people vehemently
> disagreeing and telling us we're utterly wrong. That's not an attack.
> Nor where you an innocent bystander, you certainly did shell it out.
>
> Personally - I am somewhere inbetween when it comes to the science in
> audiophile entertainment argument. I think the audio hobby is irrational
> by definition, and we all have our pockets of craziness to define
> ourselves as "audiophiles" and read this forum. 99% people out there are
> perfectly happy with their smartphone and the free earbuds that shipped
> with it. I for one fully enjoy merely visual improvements to my system,
> and freely admit I enjoy it more if it pleases not only my ears, but
> also my visual and tactile senses. I don't claim I can hear a
> difference, but I simply enjoy it more, and psychoacoustics are relevant
> to the overall experience. I am pretty sure my favorite jazzband sounds
> better to me in a suave Manhattan cafe than in a Bronx trash disposal
> site. There's nothing wrong with psychoacoustics. They matter. But
> scientifically speaking - we should be careful about making claims that
> an experiment is reproducible. There are tons of audio tests out there
> that show it all comes down to 50% chance (basically, accident). But I
> for one have never confused ABC tests with simple musical enjoyment.
>
> I am glad that I have been able to tell the difference between 320k MP3
> and FLAC with music I am very familiar with (it is a damnably close
> call, and stressful, and not at all fun). Cables? Even DACs? Unless they
> were total screwups I was never able to reliably tell the difference.
> The one DAC I was able to tell apart was simply because of higher noise
> floor. I am pretty sure that id I am able to tell the difference between
> MP3 and FLAC I don't have the worst hearing in the planet, hence I can
> live with the fact most DACs sound pretty much exactly the same. So
> what. I still like mine a lot. Mostly because it has a feature set I
> value.
>
> You started a discussion about "which chip sounds better?", which given
> the fact there isn't a universal test bench design that allows you to
> interexchange the chips within the same overall system makes little
> sense. Yes, I do read the article speculating that supposedly the latest
> SABRE chip is the best and what not, but I don't really think it'll make
> a big difference to my ears. Speakers? Hell yeah. An amplifier that
> matches them? Sure. Better source material? Bring it. Digital stuff?
> Meh. Cables? Ha.

Well reasoned/put Pablo.
Shame about the response.



*Vortexbox LMS 7.9 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
*Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 ->
Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B&W P7
*Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755
-> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
*Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
*Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones
*Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 ->
Wharfedale Modus Cubes
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[edwardthern]

d6jg wrote:
> Well reasoned/put Pablo.
> Shame about the response.

The response wasn't to him IDIOT!!!!

Did you see me quote his text and respond to him?


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[edwardthern]

pablolie wrote:
>
> You started a discussion about "which chip sounds better?", which given
> the fact there isn't a universal test bench design that allows you to
> interexchange the chips within the same overall system makes little
> sense. Yes, I do read the article speculating that supposedly the latest
> SABRE chip is the best and what not, but I don't really think it'll make
> a big difference to my ears. Speakers? Hell yeah. An amplifier that
> matches them? Sure. Better source material? Bring it. Digital stuff?
> Meh. Cables? Ha.

Again I will post plainly and clearly.

Yes I started a discussion about "which dac chip sounds better TO ME"
and asked if anyone had a dac chip that sounds better to them.

I posted my perceptions and ASKED if anyone experienced a perception
which lead them to have a favorite dac chip. Is this not plain to see? I
made it plain and clear in my initial thread. I never said this chip
WILL sound better to YOU or made any claims that this chip WILL or MUST
sound better to everyone. My exact words..."But my favorite is the
PCM1704UK." Key word ---->MY<----

An appropriate response would be
No I do not have a favorite dac chip because ---->I<------ that's I
think they all sound the same. In fact I think ......
Say what you feel, say what you think....even explain why but do not
tell someone or attack someone for thinking and feeling or perceiving.

Don't you people know how to have an adult conversation?


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[SlimChances]

My chip tastes better (;0)

[image:
http://images.wisegeek.com/crinkle-cut-potato-chips-isolated-on-white.jpg]



Logitech Media Server Version: 7.9.0 - 1480516903 @ Wed Nov 30 15:10:50
UTC 2016
Operating system: Debian - EN - utf8 Platform Architecture:
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Perl Version: 5.22.1 - x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi
Database Version: DBD::SQLite 1.34_01 (sqlite 3.7.7.1)



One SB Touch connected by ethernet - Denon AVR -1912 Receiver, Paradigm
4.1 speakers
Two SB Radios wireless
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