[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Multichannel Playback - ideas and music?

[Archimago]

Hi guys, wondering how you all are running multichannel rigs and what
format you're enjoying?

Like others have expressed, I also wish there were some way to integrate
multichannel into the Squeezebox system. Awhile back I remember that if
I tried to play a 5.1 song through SqueezeServer/LMS, it would hang the
system and put up a bug tracker tag. I hope this bug has been fixed.

Although I have both SACD and DVD-A players, I've ripped the collection
and serve the multichannel FLACs these days through foobar running on
the HTPC in the room connected to my NAS server (in adjacent room so I
don't hear it). Controlled on my tablet with "FoobarCon Pro" on Android.
HDMI audio sent to Onkyo and decoded there... Preamps out to my stereo
end and the Onkyo amps to drive center, rears, and feed sub. Works
generally OK although on occasion I may lose the first couple seconds of
a song or foobar gets confused with audio output device.

Are you folks doing multichannel streaming/playback like this? Still
playing SACD/DVD-A/Blu-Ray directly?

Any favourite albums on multichannel?



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[Audiotic]

Hmm, I do not use the Squeezebox for multi-channel at all. I use the
SACD and DVD / BluRay - way for this. I have a lot of DSD files that
in principle are multi channel files but have the 2 channel in them.
This is played through Audirvana and a USB connection. As stereo.
My DAC can only handle stereo, the DAC in my pre-amp can decode
multi-channel but that's only used for movies :-)



Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end -
Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) -
Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver &
Gold, XLR where possible
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[Archimago]

Yeah, just to clarify. No Squeezebox in the multichannel pathway for me
either. The only place the signal intersects with the stereo gear is
thru the preamp in home theater pass through mode to play the front
channels.

Sounds good.

If anyone hasn't done so, check out some of the upsampled DTS
conversions from stereo CD (you can find some as SPEC conversions).
Little Feat's 'Waiting for Columbus' is a good one. Sounds almost like a
pro mastering to me!



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[Mnyb]

The only way to get multichannel is ac3 or dts files compressed as flac
or wav .
Thats what toslink or spdiff supports

But with so many third party players aviable with hdmi capable hardware
,
Maybe its time to support 5.1 flac files ?



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Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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[darrenyeats]

I am not a fan of multichannel. Ok for movies.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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[Pascal Hibon]

I'm not interested in multichannel music. I don't care about
multichannel for movies either.
The hassle of the increased number of cables and speakers just doesn't
justify it for me. I prefer a decent stereo system, even for movies. I
find a good quality recording way more important than multichannel
music. The industry seems to have a lot of difficulties of providing
good quality recordings. I would prefer they would focus more on that
part instead of high res and multichannel.



'M-DAC' (http://www.audiolab.co.uk/M-DAC%20Series.aspx?lang=En) ->
'Cambridge Audio Azur 840E'
(http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/azur-840e-pre-amplifier) ->
'Focal MP1200' (http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB3, 1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio and 2 x SB Touch - all wireless
1 x Wandboard Dual behind the bedroom ceiling
1 x Wandboard Dual for 'msqueeze' (http://www.msqueeze.co.nf/index.html)
project
1 x Wandboard Quad (will eventually become my LMS server)
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.8.1. - 1402661598
iPeng 7 on iPhone.
SqueezePad & iPeng 7 on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[Mnyb]

I do have a lot of DVDA in 5.1 it does really sound good , some mixes
are gimicky but there are good ones like the discs AIX put out a decade
ago .

As i have a Meridian system i have well functioning surround modes even
for 2ch music I often use these they enhance the experience in some
situations .

I think even paul klispsh was onto it in the 50's or something with an
idea of a center fill channel for stereo .

Even if things are recorded with 2 ch does not necesarily mean that you
must play them back with 2 ch .
I dont think these things are mutually exlusive , for example combining
home theater and hifi .

And I only did 2ch rips of my DVDA discs , I have no way of playing back
discrete 6 ch files . I guess i'm open to suggestions on what to use for
that , do you guys use a htpc or something and what software ?

My experience is that video and music demands completely different
strategies and tagging and also browsing software . Whats good for films
and tv series might not be ideal for music .
Would be nice if multichannel where supported by LMS and if the software
players supported it ,it could be used with a wandboard or similar .
But I realise that downloads in 6ch and hirez is an even rarer thing
than real music in DSD , so maybe it's not worth anyone’s time
unless for the fun of it .

I think my old pile >100 DVDA is what could have been and history , but
music bluerays is a thing , but they often come with video too ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphy]

I use linux and the process described on the 'wiki'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Play_DVD_Tracks) which uses
spdifconvert.py to encapsulate ac3 or dts into flac. There's a link to
download the script on the wiki.

To avoid a blast of static on a stereo only setup, make sure you tag
those flac files as multichannel, I use GENRE=multichannel, and exclude
that genre from automatic mixes, in my case SmartMix, for players that
aren't connected to an amp that supports AC3/DTS decoding.



Ralphy

*1*-Touch, *4*-Classics, *2*-Booms, *1*-Reverted UE Radio
'Squeezebox client builds'
(https://www.mediafire.com/folder/4q8dvq20iyz9e/Builds) 'donations'
(https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_donations&business=LL5P6365KQEXN&lc=CA&item_name=Squeezebox%20client%20builds&currency_code=USD&bn=PP%2dDonationsBF%3abtn_donate_SM%2egif%3aNonHosted)
always appreciated.
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[Mnyb]

Post by ralphy
I use linux and the process described on the 'wiki'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Play_DVD_Tracks) which uses
spdifconvert.py to encapsulate ac3 or dts into flac. There's a link to
download the script on the wiki.
To avoid a blast of static on a stereo only setup, make sure you tag
those flac files as multichannel, I use GENRE=multichannel, and exclude
that genre from automatic mixes, in my case SmartMix, for players that
aren't connected to an amp that supports AC3/DTS decoding.

Yes that's a good idea to keep them out of the mix, I also have some ac3
files and know the static blast .
Also keep volume at 100% for this to work and be carefull when syncing ,
another opurtunity for static :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[pablolie]

Post by Pascal Hibon
I'm not interested in multichannel music. I don't care about
multichannel for movies either.
The hassle of the increased number of cables and speakers just doesn't
justify it for me. I prefer a decent stereo system, even for movies. I
find a good quality recording way more important than multichannel
music. The industry seems to have a lot of difficulties of providing
good quality recordings. I would prefer they would focus more on that
part instead of high res and multichannel.

my exact same sentiments on the subject matter. i'd rather spend more on
fewer components, plus i truly have never been impressed by any
multichannel system when it comes to music. note i am not saying there
possibly aren't extremely awesome sounding multi-channel systems out
there, but i haven't heard one yet. and it seems people need to fool
around from movie to movie with settings so something isn't overly
boosted, which would annoy the hell out of me. i just change the source
and volume. anyone that tried to adjust anything in my system better
never make plans to visit me again. :-) and the little system sounds
great for all sorts of video entertainment to me, too.

i can confidently say i shall never buy a system beyond 2.1. then again,
i was once on record saying i'd never ever buy a single piece of audio
equipment after buying my dream system in 1999, and yet here i am. :-)



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity
M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e
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[atrocity]

I've got a dedicated computer in the living room that I turn on when I
want to play multichannel DVD-A rips. Since I'm running Windows, I also
have to keep the monitor on. Definitely not optimal, but I have yet to
hear of any other way to do it that works as reliably.

As for encapsulating DTS and AC-3 in a FLAC container, the
spdifconvert.py script + DVD Decrypter used to work perfectly for me but
at some point I started getting gaps when using it for AC-3. I've since
started using AudioMuxer (free!) which is easier to work with and (so
far, anyway) hasn't given me any gaps.

I'm not sure why people feel the need to answer this question with "I
don't like it" though I suppose I'm just as guilty for whining about
that.


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[ralphpnj]

Post by atrocity
I'm not sure why people feel the need to answer this question with "I
don't like it" though I suppose I'm just as guilty for whining about
that.

I believe that in my previous post (#10 above) I outlined why I don't
think that multi-channel audio (and to a lesser extent, video) is at the
present time basically useless.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[atrocity]

Post by ralphpnj
I believe that in my previous post (#10 above) I outlined why I don't
think that multi-channel audio (and to a lesser extent, video) is at the
present time basically useless.

And that's fine, you don't have to like multichannel music (or anything
else, for that matter). But when someone asks "How can I..?" it seems
pointless to respond with a version of "Who cares?" To me, it's no
different from responding to "I have one Beethoven FLAC that won't play,
any ideas?" with "Beethoven sucks!"


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[ralphpnj]

Post by atrocity
And that's fine, you don't have to like multichannel music (or anything
else, for that matter). But when someone asks "How can I..?" it seems
pointless to respond with a version of "Who cares?" To me, it's no
different from responding to "I have one Beethoven FLAC that won't play,
any ideas?" with "Beethoven sucks!"

Look I'm not trying to start some kind of flame war but I really, really
think that you should actually read my entire post before you reply. I
clearly stated how I listen to multi-channel audio and video and I
clearly outlined what I find lacking about the current state of
multi-channel/surround audio and video. Plus I gave an example of one
recording that at least begins to show a way to make
multi-channel/surround audio worthwhile.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[atrocity]

Post by ralphpnj
Look I'm not trying to start some kind of flame war but I really, really
think that you should actually read my entire post before you reply.

It was not and is not my intent to single you out. I'm simply
expressing consternation that a relatively straightforward question
already has no fewer than four variations on "What you want is
pointless." If I appear to be picking on you, I apologize.

The subject is important to me because I have lots of surround
recordings that I enjoy and have wished for years now that the lossless
ones could be integrated into the Squeeze universe. With a small but
steady trickle of both new 5.1 mixes and old 4.0 mixes getting released
in various formats, my desire to see a solution more flexible than
Windows + Foobar2000 is only increasing.


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[ralphpnj]

Post by atrocity
It was not and is not my intent to single you out. I'm simply
expressing consternation that a relatively straightforward question
already has no fewer than four variations on "What you want is
pointless." If I appear to be picking on you, I apologize.
The subject is important to me because I have lots of surround
recordings that I enjoy and have wished for years now that the lossless
ones could be integrated into the Squeeze universe. With a small but
steady trickle of both new 5.1 mixes and old 4.0 mixes getting released
in various formats, my desire to see a solution more flexible than
Windows + Foobar2000 is only increasing.

Apology accepted. Since you are someone who enjoys surround recordings I
do understand your frustration with lack of support for streaming
surround sound recordings using the Squeezebox system. However since
Logitech has all but dropped support for 2 channel Squeezebox I really
don't see them adding surround sound support now or ever. Perhaps you
might get a few useful responses if you started a surround sound related
thread in either the "Logitech Media Server" or the "DIY" sections of
the forum.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[pablolie]

i think it is quite natural that in a forum like this a subtopic
develops out of a topic like this. it'd be extremely quiet if that
wasn't the usual modus operandi. :-)

one thing i am pretty sure about: there was never any intent of flaming.
it's been a looooong time since i have seen on of those round here, and
in here there seems to be an overriding camaraderie.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity
M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Hi guys, wondering how you all are running multichannel rigs and what
format you're enjoying?
......
Are you folks doing multichannel streaming/playback like this? Still
playing SACD/DVD-A/Blu-Ray directly?
Any favourite albums on multichannel?

To answer your questions:

I have a home theater set up which uses an older Marantz HTR (which
still works fine) with front, center and rear speakers plus a subwoofer.
Playback is via either an Oppo blu-ray player (for SACD, DVD-A, DVD and
blu-ray) or through a SB Touch (for DTS encoded flac files)

Multi-channel for the most part is pretty much a joke - for movies and
videos the rear channels have almost no content except for sound effects
or crowd noise (sports broadcasts). About the only good thing is the
center channel which does provide for nice clear dialog. For music it's
pretty much equally useless with the rear channels just providing a
little ambiance, which is more often than not barely audible.

As for favorite multichannel albums I've heard one that actually uses
the extra channels with any degree of artfullness: Björk's Medulla (on
SACD). On Medulla any and all of the front, center or rear channels can
be used as the primary point of origin for the music. Gimmicky? Yes but
at least the rear channels get to do something besides play some barely
audible "ambiance".



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
...
As for favorite multichannel albums I've heard one that actually uses
the extra channels with any degree of artfullness: Björk's Medulla (on
SACD). On Medulla any and all of the front, center or rear channels can
be used as the primary point of origin for the music. Gimmicky? Yes but
at least the rear channels get to do something besides play some barely
audible "ambiance".

Thanks for reminding me of Medulla. I'll have to have a listen again. I
remember listening to this in my old house before the improved
multichannel setup. Some of the surround/rear effects were downright
freaky (whispering, heavy breathing and such). Nice bass as well.



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[get.amped]

Post by Archimago
Hi guys, wondering how you all are running multichannel rigs and what
format you're enjoying?
Like others have expressed, I also wish there were some way to integrate
multichannel into the Squeezebox system. Awhile back I remember that if
I tried to play a 5.1 song through SqueezeServer/LMS, it would hang the
system and put up a bug tracker tag. I hope this bug has been fixed.
Although I have both SACD and DVD-A players, I've ripped the collection
and serve the multichannel FLACs these days through foobar running on
the HTPC in the room connected to my NAS server (in adjacent room so I
don't hear it). Controlled on my tablet with "FoobarCon Pro" on Android.
HDMI audio sent to Onkyo and decoded there... Preamps out to my stereo
end and the Onkyo amps to drive center, rears, and feed sub. Works
generally OK although on occasion I may lose the first couple seconds of
a song or foobar gets confused with audio output device.
Are you folks doing multichannel streaming/playback like this? Still
playing SACD/DVD-A/Blu-Ray directly?
Any favourite albums on multichannel?

My multi-channel system is (almost) completely separate from my SB-based
two channel stereo. Which means there are a lot of speakers in my living
room. And since there's no "W," WAF is not a factor.

I rip DVD, BR and DVD-A discs to ISO images and store them on the same
server that I use for LMS. It has HDMI out to the Denon receiver I use
for HT. When I want to play one of those titles, I mount the ISO to a
virtual optical drive using Alcohol 52% Free and play it using PowerDVD
(my old version 9 install still plays DVD-A). I expect I could use
almost any player software since the ISO looks like a shiny disc to the
OS. I also have NAD and Denon players capable of playing DVD-A discs but
I almost never use them anymore.

In practice, I only use the multi-channel for video with it's
accompanying audio and that generally means live concert video as far as
music is concerned.



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.9.0 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
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[Archimago]

Post by get.amped
My multi-channel system is (almost) completely separate from my SB-based
two channel stereo. Which means there are a lot of speakers in my living
room. And since there's no "W," WAF is not a factor.
I rip DVD, BR and DVD-A discs to ISO images and store them on the same
server that I use for LMS. It has HDMI out to the Denon receiver I use
for HT. When I want to play one of those titles, I mount the ISO to a
virtual optical drive using Alcohol 52% Free and play it using PowerDVD
(my old version 9 install still plays DVD-A). I expect I could use
almost any player software since the ISO looks like a shiny disc to the
OS. I also have NAD and Denon players capable of playing DVD-A discs but
I almost never use them anymore.
In practice, I only use the multi-channel for video with it's
accompanying audio and that generally means live concert video as far as
music is concerned.

Thanks for the info -get.amped- and -atrocity-.

My state of affairs in terms of multichannel is essentially the same as
when I posted this about a year ago:
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/02/musings-silence-is-golden-htpc-rebuild.html

I've ripped all my DVD-A, multichannel SACDs (converted to PCM 5.1 24/88
usually), and music Blu-Rays into 5.1 FLACs in a separate directory.
They now all reside on my main music server that runs LMS 24/7 in
another room (to avoid too many machines and fans in the sound room);
wired ethernet for reliability - high bitrates for 5.1 24/96! Because
LMS doesn't do multichannel, I don't include that directory for LMS of
course.

Then that HTPC computer in the soundroom is loaded with foobar,
connected to the Onkyo TX-1009NR receiver with HDMI (serves as 1080P MKV
video playback as well). With the WASAPI plugin for foobar, I make sure
the output is pointed to the Onkyo for playback. Foobar's library is
pointed at the multichannel music directory on my server machine.

The HTPC goes to sleep when not used (vast majority of the time, just
press on the keyboard to wake up). I've been using "FoobarCon Pro" on my
Android tablet to control foobar for playback of those multichannel
FLACs. 90+% of the time this system works without a hitch. No need to
turn on the TV at all (just make sure I turn on the Onkyo receiver)
unless something goes wrong and I need to diagnose the problem.

Without dedicated multichannel playback, this is as smooth as I've been
able to get it to work. And with the server in another room and the HTPC
essentially silent, there's no sonic obstruction.

As to whether one thinks multichannel is valuable or not, that's one of
those ultimate subjective opinions of course. I personally enjoy hearing
the labour of the engineers who do the mixes! Certainly very different
presentations. To hear the multichannel placement of instruments or the
ambience of the live performance in Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" always
stuns my audiophile friends (even if it's "only" a 5.1 16/44 lossy DTS
rip), or to get a true multichannel audition of Roger Waters "In The
Flesh" (SACD rip) is a blast (instead of the Q-Sound enhanced CD for
surround effect). Likewise the audiophile perennial demo disk "Dark Side
Of The Moon" is highly suited for a surround presentation! Then there's
an album like Alan Parsons' "On Air" which was created with surround in
mind.

I'm looking forward to another Roger Waters favourite - "Amused To
Death" coming out in discreet multichannel (another Q-Sound CD mix).
Even other typically 2-channel albums sound great; for example the
recent Bob Marley "Legend" from about a year ago in Blu-Ray sounds very
nice in a good multichannel system.

Getting multichannel done "right" can be a bit of a challenge of course
and for practical reasons, will not be for everyone including soundroom
setup, WAF, increased cost, etc... I just wish it was easier without all
these bits and pieces I've had to cobble together!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[pablolie]

"Getting multichannel done "right" can be a bit of a challenge of

course and for practical reasons, will not be for everyone including
soundroom setup, WAF, increased cost, etc... I just wish it was easier
without all these bits and pieces I've had to cobble together!

well getting stereo right is hard. and some recordings kinda demand you
reposition your speakers just for their sake. just with 2 speakers. can
you say Keith Jarret with his piano centric recording approach? won't
work for almost anything else. but if you use it with the setup that
works for most other things you get a piano that's about 20ft wide.

i can't even imagine moving around 7 speakers to cater to the whim of
the recording. :-) that's all. there are absolutely no recording
standards, so i think the more speakers, the more impossible it'll be to
get it right. it's bad enough with a large stereo music library. we go
for a compromise.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity
M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e
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[Archimago]

Post by pablolie

"Getting multichannel done "right" can be a bit of a challenge of

course and for practical reasons, will not be for everyone including
soundroom setup, WAF, increased cost, etc... I just wish it was easier
without all these bits and pieces I've had to cobble together!
well getting stereo right is hard. and some recordings kinda demand you
reposition your speakers just for their sake. just with 2 speakers. can
you say Keith Jarret with his piano centric recording approach? won't
work for almost anything else. but if you use it with the setup that
works for most other things you get a piano that's about 20ft wide.
i can't even imagine moving around 7 speakers to cater to the whim of
the recording. :-) that's all. there are absolutely no recording
standards, so i think the more speakers, the more impossible it'll be to
get it right. it's bad enough with a large stereo music library. we go
for a compromise.

True, speaker position is an issue... However, I wonder if in the
multichannel world, there might actually be a little more
standardization. For example the 'ITU-R BS.775-3'
(http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/bs/R-REC-BS.775-3-201208-I!!PDF-E.pdf)
specifies recommended angles for both movies and music which I've tried
to emulate in my sound system (the 5.1 configuration is of course in
line with THX and Dolby recommendations). Also, modern decent receivers
almost universally incorporate room-EQ correction easily activated to
compensate for loudness and distance differences... Better to have a
proper room configuration of course but this will certainly help.

Nothing's perfect but I must admit I'm enjoying Bryan Adams -Reckless
-5.1 30th Anniversary Blu-Ray audio right now... Good memories of high
school, now in a surround high-res mix! (Better BTW that the nasty
compressed sounding stereo mix on the same disk - yuck!)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Mnyb]

Post by Archimago
True, speaker position is an issue... However, I wonder if in the
multichannel world, there might actually be a little more
standardization. For example the 'ITU-R BS.775-3'
(http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/bs/R-REC-BS.775-3-201208-I!!PDF-E.pdf)
specifies recommended angles for both movies and music which I've tried
to emulate in my sound system (the 5.1 configuration is of course in
line with THX and Dolby recommendations). Also, modern decent receivers
almost universally incorporate room-EQ correction easily activated to
compensate for loudness and distance differences... Better to have a
proper room configuration of course but this will certainly help.
Nothing's perfect but I must admit I'm enjoying Bryan Adams -Reckless
-5.1 30th Anniversary Blu-Ray audio right now... Good memories of high
school, now in a surround high-res mix! (Better BTW that the nasty
compressed sounding stereo remaster on the same disk - yuck!)

yes there are standards for multichannel audio regarding both speaker
positioning and "drummroll" *levels !* So for movies or possibly other
multich materials there is an actuall small change that you happen to
recreate the mix as the producers intended .
That would never happen with typical stereo mixes (for example you dont
know if the mix engineer listened 75dB or 130dB when mixing ;) )



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Julf]

Post by Archimago
I'm looking forward to another Roger Waters favourite - "Amused To
Death" coming out in discreet multichannel

Me too!



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Archimago]

Post by Julf
Me too!

Still no street date for that "Amused To Death" Analogue Productions 5.1
SACD it appears... Tempted to pre-order but given how long it seems to
be dragging out (I thought it was supposed to come out September 2014),
I really hope it will see the light of day soon!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Mnyb]

Imo even "ambiance" helps if done rigth with 5 speaker the stereo image
can get wider deeper and higher than with 2 speakers .

And in my case the midrange gets much better for song due the favorable
position ( acoustic you know ) of my center speaker .
Another interesting factor that also can be a factor for me is the comb
filter effect interference effect you get with multiple sources. 2
sources is possibly one of the worst cases 1 speaker or many speakers
have less of this effect .
So the response can be much smoother with 3 front speakers in the room .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Archimago]

Post by Mnyb
Imo even "ambiance" helps if done rigth with 5 speaker the stereo image
can get wider deeper and higher than with 2 speakers .
And in my case the midrange gets much better for song due the favorable
position ( acoustic you know ) of my center speaker .
Another interesting factor that also can be a factor for me is the comb
filter effect interference effect you get with multiple sources. 2
sources is possibly one of the worst cases 1 speaker or many speakers
have less of this effect .
So the response can be much smoother with 3 front speakers in the room .

Which reminds me of the 3.0 albums like the Analogue Productions' Nat
King Cole SACDs and Living Stereo classical SACDs... Great sounding
replicas of the way these were recorded on 3-track tapes before stereo
mixdowns. The Nat King Cole vocals in the center channel sounds
amazingly "present".



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Julf]

Post by Archimago
Which reminds me of the 3.0 albums like the Analogue Productions' Nat
King Cole SACDs and Living Stereo classical SACDs... Great sounding
replicas of the way these were recorded on 3-track tapes before stereo
mixdowns. The Nat King Cole vocals in the center channel sounds
amazingly "present".

I also remember the Hafler and Ortoperspekta pseudo-3-channel systems
(basically a matrix producing mono centre channel and side "difference"
channels) that were great for music recorded directly using 2 mics, but
failed totally with complex, mixed stuff.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Funny no one has mentioned the 5000 pound elephant in the room, namely
since there are so few (what a couple of hundred at best) native
surround sound recordings (sure there are lots of surround sound concert
recordings but these always leave me confused since the sound field
remains fixed but the damn camera angles keep changing so there is no
continuity between the video image and the sound field, e.g. singer in
center channel but off to one side on the video) most of the recordings
are simply stereo recordings digitally processed for a surround sound
effect. Kind of like the old mono recording processed for stereo.

That and the complete lack of playback and recording standards for
surround sound, whether audio only or video, and the whole thing is a
mess. Plus how does one do surround sound on a smart phone or tablet,
which are fast becoming the main ways that most people listen to music
or watch video.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[marcb]

Post by ralphpnj
Funny no one has mentioned the 5000 pound elephant in the room, namely
since there are so few (what a couple of hundred at best) native
surround sound recordings (sure there are lots of surround sound concert
recordings but these always leave me confused since the sound field
remains fixed but the damn camera angles keep changing so there is no
continuity between the video image and the sound field, e.g. singer in
center channel but off to one side on the video) most of the recordings
are simply stereo recordings digitally processed for a surround sound
effect. Kind of like the old mono recording processed for stereo.
That and the complete lack of playback and recording standards for
surround sound, whether audio only or video, and the whole thing is a
mess. Plus how does one do surround sound on a smart phone or tablet,
which are fast becoming the main ways that most people listen to music
or watch video.

Maybe no one is mentioning it because it is simply incorrect. There are
hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of music SACDs, DVD-As, music &
video blu-rays & DVDs, etc that have discrete 5 channel, 4 channel & 3
channel mixes from multitrack recordings (stereo "recordings" per se
have been largely extinct for over 50 years). In fact, only a very
small number are stereo processed for multichannel (like the old
reprocessed mono for stereo). That one doesn't like them or finds them
disconcerting is no different that what can be said for a great number
of stereo mixes - like, for example those that have drums spread across
the entire soundfield so it sounds like the drummer has 10 foot arms.

As for standards, what are the standards for stereo? The lack of
standards for dynamic range compression alone render any discussion of
stereo standards moot, IMO. Yes, much like you can't do stereo on
anything with one speaker, you can't do multi-channel (or rather, it's
pretty pointless to do so) on a smart phone or tablet - or anything with
just two speakers.

But you can certainly control a home surround system from a phone or
tablet with no less difficulty than a home stereo system.


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[ralphpnj]

Post by marcb
Maybe no one is mentioning it because it is simply incorrect. There are
hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of music SACDs, DVD-As, music &
video blu-rays & DVDs, etc that have discrete 5 channel, 4 channel & 3
channel mixes from multitrack recordings (stereo "recordings" per se
have been largely extinct for over 50 years). In fact, only a very
small number are stereo processed for multichannel (like the old
reprocessed mono for stereo). That one doesn't like them or finds them
disconcerting is no different that what can be said for a great number
of stereo mixes - like, for example those that have drums spread across
the entire soundfield so it sounds like the drummer has 10 foot arms.
As for standards, what are the standards for stereo? The lack of
standards for dynamic range compression alone render any discussion of
stereo standards moot, IMO. Yes, much like you can't do stereo on
anything with one speaker, you can't do multi-channel (or rather, it's
pretty pointless to do so) on a smart phone or tablet - or anything with
just two speakers.
But you can certainly control a home surround system from a phone or
tablet with no less difficulty than a home stereo system.

Yep you basically proved my assertion that there are very few recordings
native surround sound recordings other than live concert recordings.
Taking a multi-track stereo recording and remixing it for surround sound
is not the same thing as a native surround sound recording.

However I do completely agree with your last two paragraphs.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Julf]

Post by Archimago
Still no street date for that "Amused To Death" Analogue Productions 5.1
SACD it appears... Tempted to pre-order but given how long it seems to
be dragging out (I thought it was supposed to come out September 2014),
I really hope it will see the light of day soon!

And it is a pity that it is going to be on SACD, making it a hassle to
rip... :(



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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