[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World

[ralphpnj]

Since many of the recent threads on this sub section have quickly
devolved into flame wars and name calling perhaps a thread with less
"audiophile" baggage might result in a more meaningful and worthwhile
discussion. Let's see how this subject works out, shall we.

The world of audio is changing in many ways due to the wide spread
acceptance and use of digital audio. One example of this is the way that
streaming audio has changed the way we think about music collections,
i.e. one central music library location (server) feeding many separate
audio systems and all of it controlled by a smart phone or tablet.

One of the great features of digital audio is that digital audio offers
the ability to re-engineer the entire audio playback chain from top to
bottom. This new approach to playback can be something as simple as room
correction via a digital signal processor or something as radical as a
digital audio server (music server) feeding digitally active speakers
without need for any of the more traditional audio equipment (DACs,
pre-amps, power amps and lots of wires and interconnects). By digitally
active speakers I am referring to speakers that contain all the
components (DSPs, DACs and amps) right in the speaker and that can be
controlled from a computer, tablet or smart phone. Now the pro audio
world has been moving in this direction for quite some time but when
might the high end audio world take this step and what might the results
look and sound like?



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
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& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
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[Wombat]

Not only because they are around the corner but for the simple attempt
not often found at these high-end vendors i like Avantgarde Acoustics
ZERO 1 http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/zero1/_en/zero-einfach.html
No fancy peripherals needed just something easily available as Airport
Express to feed them.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[Archimago]

I can certainly see myself owning something like the ZERO 1 in the
future if I want to reset the system! All-in-one systems like these will
allow the designers to optimize all the parts for sound quality and
provide a neat tidy package. Certainly my wife would already appreciate
something like this in our living area especially if she can just stream
whatever off her phone without hassle.

I have no doubt that it would sound excellent. Given that this is the
audiophile subforum, the main question I do wonder about is if it will
be afforded with the same -respect-. Would streaming through the Airport
Express be something that the traditional audiophiles see as on par with
the same quality out of wired transmission? There's also the loss of
flexibility; you can't just switch out amps and change the DAC at
leisure although I guess it might be interesting to have a modular
design...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> I have no doubt that it would sound excellent. Given that this is the
> audiophile subforum, the main question I do wonder about is if it will
> be afforded with the same -respect-. Would streaming through the Airport
> Express be something that the traditional audiophiles see as on par with
> the same quality out of wired transmission? There's also the loss of
> flexibility; you can't just switch out amps and change the DAC at
> leisure although I guess it might be interesting to have a modular
> design...

Well, coming from Avantgarde, it will probably be be priced at a
reassuringly expensive price point that might add to the credibility
among audiophiles....



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> I can certainly see myself owning something like the ZERO 1 in the
> future if I want to reset the system! All-in-one systems like these will
> allow the designers to optimize all the parts for sound quality and
> provide a neat tidy package. Certainly my wife would already appreciate
> something like this in our living area especially if she can just stream
> whatever off her phone without hassle.
>
> I have no doubt that it would sound excellent. Given that this is the
> audiophile subforum, the main question I do wonder about is if it will
> be afforded with the same -respect-. Would streaming through the Airport
> Express be something that the traditional audiophiles see as on par with
> the same quality out of wired transmission? There's also the loss of
> flexibility; you can't just switch out amps and change the DAC at
> leisure although I guess it might be interesting to have a modular
> design...

I'll respond to your second paragraph first - All in one speakers like
the ZERO 1 could and, most likely, would cause quite a bit unrest in the
high end audio world. No expensive DACs, pre-amps, power amps and cables
to buy would certainly represent a paradigm shift in the world of high
end audio and there's a good chance that the ZERO 1 would not be given
the same respect that more traditional audio components receive. Class D
amps, lack of flexibility, etc. would be just the start. However
Avantgarde Acoustics should be praised for being different and daring.

I read through the information on the Avantgarde Acoustics web site
regarding the ZERO 1 system but I could not discern if the system is
capable of doing room correction along with the digital signal
processing being done for the individual speaker drivers and amps. Now
that would be a real game changer - an all in one speaker system similar
to the ZERO 1 (if the ZERO 1 is, indeed not capable of doing room
correction within the DSP) that not only uses digital signal processing
to optimize each individual speaker driver but also optimizes the entire
system based on the room and the placement of the speakers within the
room. And if the system/speakers could use LMS and iPeng I would think
that I died and went to heaven.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Mnyb]

Happy to se the gauntlet passed to some other than Meridian , which I
own . Meridian have done this since the 90's but they are by now a
luxury brand and quite expensive . I do like the sound of my meridian
equipment but I'm convinced it can be done cheaper and better by now .

I think genelec also offer some consumer friendly 5.1 solutions . my
hifi dealer told me that you can use a meridian HD621 to convert hdmi to
discrete digital outputs ? Or they might be another solution for that .
Now genelec speakers looks like Moomin and the subwoofers like air
humidifiers :) but they can sound impressive

History lesson by 2004 when I bought the DVDA player and Souround
processor Meridian was about the only ones that feed discrete 5.1 24/96
digital signals from their DVDA player further down the chain trough
their processor to the speakers in most other solutions both SACD and
DVDA was converted to analog in the player , often due to paranoid
licensing issues ( irrational fear of piracy ) ? But that's all obsolete
by now we move on .

We had an old tread on active digital speakers I do think we have even
more to pick from .

As speakers rarely can be totally neutral and transparent and they also
interact with an to the designer unknown acoustic ( he can make educated
guesses ) there will always be a matter of taste .

So more brands on this scene will widen the audience .



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Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Julf]

Mnyb wrote:
> Now genelec speakers looks like Moomin

Maybe it is not entirely coincidental that both come from the same
country :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[artee]

ralphpnj wrote:
> I'll respond to your second paragraph first - All in one speakers like
> the ZERO 1 could and, most likely, would cause quite a bit unrest in the
> high end audio world. No expensive DACs, pre-amps, power amps and cables
> to buy would certainly represent a paradigm shift in the world of high
> end audio and there's a good chance that the ZERO 1 would not be given
> the same respect that more traditional audio components receive. Class D
> amps, lack of flexibility, etc. would be just the start. However
> Avantgarde Acoustics should be praised for being different and daring.
>
> I read through the information on the Avantgarde Acoustics web site
> regarding the ZERO 1 system but I could not discern if the system is
> capable of doing room correction along with the digital signal
> processing being done for the individual speaker drivers and amps. Now
> that would be a real game changer - an all in one speaker system similar
> to the ZERO 1 (if the ZERO 1 is, indeed not capable of doing room
> correction within the DSP) that not only uses digital signal processing
> to optimize each individual speaker driver but also optimizes the entire
> system based on the room and the placement of the speakers within the
> room. And if the system/speakers could use LMS and iPeng I would think
> that I died and went to heaven.

I've got a fairly vanilla setup - LMS running on a Synology NAS, Musical
Fidelity analogue amp, B&W analogue speakers. I went from cable skeptic,
to believer, back to skeptic (and have some of the cables still...).

I think that the biggest gains to be had in our digital, streaming world
are in the speaker and room correction, but am not clear if there is a
benefit in having the RC in the speaker vs handled externally by
something like the 'Lyngdorf TDAI-2170'
(http://www.lyngdorf.com/products//tdai-2170) where the RC is handled in
the digital amp and then can be output to digital speakers.

Does anyone here have experience/recommendations of either approach?
Meridian used to be my aspirational setup, as they've been doing most of
this stuff for years (as Mnyb has said). Hopefully there are more cost
effective ways to solve the problem


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[ralphpnj]

artee wrote:
> I've got a fairly vanilla setup - LMS running on a Synology NAS,
> Transporter, Musical Fidelity analogue amp, B&W analogue speakers. I
> went from cable skeptic, to believer, back to skeptic (and have some of
> the cables still...).
>
> I think that the biggest gains to be had in our digital, streaming world
> are in the speaker and room correction, but am not clear if there is a
> benefit in having the RC in the speaker vs handled externally by
> something like the 'Lyngdorf TDAI-2170'
> (http://www.lyngdorf.com/products//tdai-2170) where the RC is handled in
> the digital amp and then can be output to digital speakers.
>
> Does anyone here have experience/recommendations of either approach?
> Meridian used to be my aspirational setup, as they've been doing most of
> this stuff for years (as Mnyb has said). Hopefully there are more cost
> effective ways to solve the problem

One reason I can think of for doing all the DSP, i.e. room correction
and the processing required for each speaker driver, is that it could
result in one less processing stage and remain a truly all in one
system. I guess to go truly "outside the box" of traditional audio
instead of the system being designed and built by one manufacturer,
ideally the system would be a partnership between several different
manufacturers, each with their own area of expertise. One to handle the
DSP and maybe the DAC, another to do the amplification and a third for
the speaker drivers. Why not dream big?



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[tcutting]

Wombat wrote:
> Not only because they are around the corner but for the simple attempt
> not often found at these high-end vendors i like Avantgarde Acoustics
> ZERO 1 http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/zero1/_en/zero-einfach.html
> No fancy peripherals needed just something easily available as Airport
> Express to feed them.

Walking a bit out on a limb here (i.e., NOT and audiophile...), but this
type of solution seems like the right path to me.
The loudspeakers are usually the most difficult part of the audio system
design, especially with the "typical" approach of feeding a hi-level
full-range analog signal into a passive R/C set of filters to perform
the cross-over into the transducers optimized for particular frequency
bands. Reading the white-paper on the Squeezebox Boom design was
something of an eye-opener. Keep the full-range signal digital, use DSP
to perform the cross-over, use separate DAC outputs to individual
amplifiers for each transducer. The amplifier/transducer can be
optimized for the frequency range needed. The DSP filtering can be
optimized much more than any analog filter, and provide responses not
possible with R/C filters. The physical design of the speakers is still
something of an "art", but the active approach seems to make sooooo much
sense!


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[ralphpnj]

hansiebrand wrote:
> Room adjustment/equalization* 100 EQs, each with 16,000
> frequency points
>
> http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/zero1/_en/tech-specs.html

Thanks! Now I just have to start saving my hundred dollar bills since
trying to save pennies, as the expression normally goes, would be
pointless and take my forever (squared).



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[hansiebrand]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Thanks!

You are welcome.

Greetings from the Netherlands.


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[ralphpnj]

hansiebrand wrote:
> You are welcome.
>
> Greetings from the Netherlands.

How is the herring this year?

I really miss haring mit ui (just haring no broodje).



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[hansiebrand]

ralphpnj wrote:
> I really miss haring mit ui (just haring no broodje).

No broodje but also no ui!
The ui is only used to mask the slight rancid taste when the haring is
getting a bit older. But a 'nieuwe haring' should be appreciated without
any distracting add-ons!

The 'Hollandse Nieuwe' is actually a bit late this season. It should
have been available the 10'th of June but the haring was not 'vet'
enough to earn the title 'Hollandse Nieuwe'.
I will report back when I got a taste :p


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[Apesbrain]

Julf wrote:
> Well, coming from Avantgarde, it will probably be be priced at a
> reassuringly expensive price point that might add to the credibility
> among audiophiles....
US$15,000 the pair:
http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/trio-prices-en.html?file=tl_files/avantgarde/downloads/produkte/allgemein/preise/en/PRICES_MSRP_USD_2014-07-01.pdf

Pretty steep but less expensive "digital" speakers are available from a
number of established players including Meridian, Dynaudio, AudioEngine,
Quad, and KEF. The future would look very interesting should these
designs incorporate room correction!


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[ralphpnj]

hansiebrand wrote:
> Room adjustment/equalization* 100 EQs, each with 16,000
> frequency points
>
> http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/zero1/_en/tech-specs.html

Apesbrain wrote:
> US$15,000 the pair:
> http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/trio-prices-en.html?file=tl_files/avantgarde/downloads/produkte/allgemein/preise/en/PRICES_MSRP_USD_2014-07-01.pdf
>
> Pretty steep but less expensive "digital" speakers are available from a
> number of established players including Meridian, Dynaudio, AudioEngine,
> Quad, and KEF. The future would look very interesting should these
> designs incorporate room correction!

Apparently the ZERO 1s do handle room correction - see the first post
quoted above. And these days $15,000 for a pair of audiophile speakers
is just about the entry point plus with the ZERO 1s there are no DSPs,
DACs, pre and power amps and cables to buy. So depending on just how
good they sound that $15K doesn't seem all that outrageous.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Gandhi]

hansiebrand wrote:
> Room adjustment/equalization* 100 EQs, each with 16,000
> frequency points
> http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/zero1/_en/tech-specs.html

The room eq seems to be in the form of an optional software package
which enables you to apply filtering. Thus I conclude that the
measurements must be made using other equipment. That takes a lot of
work and you need additional hardware as well as software. The filtering
part is actually the easy part. If this functionality isn't somehow
integrated in this loudspeaker system, then it's not such a salvation,
in my humble opinion. I find room eq very important in my small
listening room, it makes a substantial improvement in the lower end.

As much as I hate to link to TAS, this is the only information I've
found:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/avantgarde-acoustic-zero-1-pro-loudspeaker/?page=4

Does anyone know anything more about this?



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
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[ralphpnj]

Gandhi wrote:
> The room eq seems to be in the form of an optional software package
> which enables you to apply filtering. Thus I conclude that the
> measurements must be made using other equipment. That takes a lot of
> work and you need additional hardware as well as software. The filtering
> part is actually the easy part. If this functionality isn't somehow
> integrated in this loudspeaker system, then it's not such a salvation,
> in my humble opinion. I find room eq very important in my small
> listening room, it makes a substantial improvement in the lower end.
>
> As much as I hate to link to TAS, this is the only information I've
> found:
> http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/avantgarde-acoustic-zero-1-pro-loudspeaker/?page=4
>
> Does anyone know anything more about this?

Interesting, very interesting. Thanks for the additional information.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[arnyk]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Since many of the recent threads on this sub section have quickly
> devolved into flame wars and name calling perhaps a thread with less
> "audiophile" baggage might result in a more meaningful and worthwhile
> discussion. Let's see how this subject works out, shall we.
>
> The world of audio is changing in many ways due to the wide spread
> acceptance and use of digital audio. One example of this is the way that
> streaming audio has changed the way we think about music collections,
> i.e. one central music library location (server) feeding many separate
> audio systems and all of it controlled by a smart phone or tablet.
>
> One of the great features of digital audio is that digital audio offers
> the ability to re-engineer the entire audio playback chain from top to
> bottom. This new approach to playback can be something as simple as room
> correction via a digital signal processor or something as radical as a
> digital audio server (music server) feeding digitally active speakers
> without need for any of the more traditional audio equipment (DACs,
> pre-amps, power amps and lots of wires and interconnects). By digitally
> active speakers I am referring to speakers that contain all the
> components (DSPs, DACs and amps) right in the speaker and that can be
> controlled from a computer, tablet or smart phone. Now the pro audio
> world has been moving in this direction for quite some time but when
> might the high end audio world take this step and what might the results
> look and sound like?
>
> Edit:
>
> There is a good example of the direction that digital audio is moving
> high end audio in the Bel Canto Design Black amplification system
> featured in the July 2015 issue of Stereophile magazine.
> (http://www.belcantodesign.com/black/)

I'm trying to figure out what is described above that I don't already
have in place.

My system offers room, speaker, and system correction via Audyssey which
is a standard feature of the AVR.

My loudspeakers are based on switchmode power supplies, power amps, and
internal DSP optimization of the whole speaker system.

My AVR, my BD player and my cable system DVR all incorporate
full-function network music players for access to both my LAN and the
entire Internet.


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[Gandhi]

arnyk wrote:
> I'm trying to figure out what is described above that I don't already
> have in place.
>
> My system offers room, speaker, and system correction via Audyssey which
> is a standard feature of the AVR.
>
> My loudspeakers are based on switchmode power supplies, power amps, and
> internal DSP optimization of the whole speaker system.
>
> My AVR, my BD player and my cable system DVR all incorporate
> full-function network music players for access to both my LAN and the
> entire Internet.

Such an AVR with integrated room eq seems quite cost effective. Would it
be possible to expand a bit upon the upsides of the AVR, Audyssey and
the speakers? Perhaps compared to some other convolvers and/or other
active speakers with DSP?

(I use REW for measuring and BruteFirDRC for convolving. But it's a bit
of a hassle to set it up. Keeping it alive also takes a bit of
tinkering. The amp and speakers are plain stupid ones (analog/passive),
so they have nothing to offer but quality.)

It would be nice to have a completely self-contained solution but your
two-box solution is perhaps as simple as it gets at this point in
history?



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[DJanGo]

I am not sure....

Long long Time ago, i can still remember:D

We bought Vinyls and Audiocassettes
The Tapes were later used in a small box called Walkman and all of "us
cool guys" used some Headphone, that you didnt see.
Some Years later we didnt buy Vinyls anymore and tried the new Media
called CD and get most of the "old" Music on the newer "louder" / better
Medium.

Some Freaks like me and you didnt sell their Turntables but just a few
of us buyed new Vinyls.

Now (2015) it looks like:

Smartphone with mp3/Flac with Headphones bigger than my old AKG K240
Sextett.

IF you want some cool Music (not that Mainstreamstuff) - you had to buy
Vinyl's.
Vinyls up to 300 gramm (sorry didnt know the oversea Measurement) nearly
the same weight as the older 78 rpm Schellacks.

In Mind of this quick and dirty expose - who will know where the future
will end?



Gruss

Jan
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[Julf]

DJanGo wrote:
> Some Years later we didnt buy Vinyls anymore and tried the new Media
> called CD and get most of the "old" Music on the newer "louder" / better
> Medium.

Initially it was just better, not louder. Louder came because of radio,
not physical media (apart from the fact that the physical limitations of
vinyl didn't allow very loud).

> IF you want some cool Music (not that Mainstreamstuff) = you had to buy
> Vinyl's.

Not really. All the new music released on vinyl is also released in
digital form - no artists wants to be left out from itunes and spotify.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[DJanGo]

Julf wrote:
> Not really. All the new music released on vinyl is also released in
> digital form - no artists wants to be left out from itunes and spotify.

Hmm eg. find some "not Radio Edits (shortend stuff)" from Carlos
Villalobos.
pretty sure you want find more than 50% of his tracks....



Gruss

Jan
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[w3wilkes]

On the flip side (I believe in an effort to promote CD) take albums like
Dire Straits / Brothers in Arms (1985) where the CD is almost 8 minutes
longer than the vinyl. Or the original CD of Tom Petty / Full Moon Fever
(1989) where there's a short hidden track in the pre-gap of track 6
where Tom Petty says "Hello, CD listeners. We've come to the point in
this album where those listening on cassette, or record, will have to
stand up, or sit down, and turn over the record, or tape. In fairness to
those listeners, we'll now take a few seconds before we begin side two.
[pause] Thank you. Here's side two."



2 Duets - 1 for upstairs and 1 for downstairs
Rock Solid with LMS 7.8.0 and WHS 2011
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[Julf]

DJanGo wrote:
> Hmm eg. find some "not Radio Edits (shortend stuff)" from Ricardo
> Villalobos.
> pretty sure you want find more than 50% of his tracks....
> /edit and these tracks, you dont find - are the cool tracks

You are of course right - there will always be special cases.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[arnyk]

Gandhi wrote:
> Such an AVR with integrated room eq seems quite cost effective. Would it
> be possible to expand a bit upon the upsides of the AVR, Audyssey and
> the speakers?
>

The upside is simple - the technology works, doesn't cost an arm and a
leg and doesn't take an act of Congress to make work. It is widely
accepted among audiophiles.

>
> Perhaps compared to some other convolvers and/or other active speakers
> with DSP?
>

The grounds for comparing system optimization software do not appear to
be specified in detail.

>
> (I use REW for measuring and BruteFirDRC for convolving. But it's a bit
> of a hassle to set it up. Keeping it alive also takes a bit of
> tinkering. The amp and speakers are plain stupid ones (analog/passive),
> so they have nothing to offer but quality.)
>

Automated system optimization facilities such as Audyssey, MCACC and
YPAO are built in to AVRs at all price levels above the most basic entry
point.

A beneficial result can be obtained with about 5 minutes of simple
methodical work.


>
> It would be nice to have a completely self-contained solution but your
> two-box solution is perhaps as simple as it gets at this point in
> history?
>

What might the second box be? A system always has to have speakers,
and these stand alone and are uninvolved with the system optimization
process, other than that they work pretty well.

>
> Active speakers with DSP is only a small leap from ditto including DRC.
> There's money to be made here! Who'll take the market first?


I think the next step would be speakers and AVRs that are connected via
a digital link.


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[Gandhi]

arnyk wrote:
> The grounds for comparing system optimization software do not appear to
> be specified in detail.

You have already answered some of my vague questions. But to be more
specific, they were regarding properties like for instance ease of
setting up, getting a simple result, getting a really good result for
one or perhaps even several points in the room, getting detailed
information about the measurements and corrections, ease of changing the
response manually, ... Also the technology behind the scenes, the kind
of filters used, price, availability (DRC software often seem to be
developed by very small companies and therefore releasing new versions,
when needed, might not happen often enough or at all), ... I know you
like writing long posts, but this might be a little much even for you.
;-)

arnyk wrote:
> What might the second box be? A system always has to have speakers, and
> these stand alone and are uninvolved with the system optimization
> process, other than that they work pretty well.

My point is that two boxes with DSP could be replaced by one box with
DSP, both for simplicity and cost. My ideal system would be something
like "Meridian DSPxxxx with integrated automatic DRC" (but less ugly,
much less). By that I mean speakers with digital in, a DSP/DAC/amp per
speaker element AND a DSP for room correction. To simplify the process
there should ALSO be integrated automated room measurement. One box in
total. It could then be fed from any digital source component. (Well, I
can dream, can't I...?)



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[arnyk]

Gandhi wrote:
> You have already answered some of my vague questions. But to be more
> specific, they were regarding properties like for instance ease of
> setting up, getting a simple result, getting a really good result for
> one or perhaps even several points in the room, getting detailed
> information about the measurements and corrections, ease of changing the
> response manually, ... Also the technology behind the scenes, the kind
> of filters used, price, availability (DRC software often seem to be
> developed by very small companies and therefore releasing new versions,
> when needed, might not happen often enough or at all), ... I know you
> like writing long posts, but this might be a little much even for you.
> ;-)
>
>
> Audysey setup:
>
> Plug Audysey Mic into front panel jack, move it to first measurement
> position.
>
> Enter Audyssey setup mode via remote control, measure first location.
> n.
>
> Move mic to next location, start next measurement (repeat).
>
> Stop measuring, Audyssey sets up AVR.
>
> Depending on what level of Audyssey your AVR has, various options may
> exist for manually overriding setup parameters
>
>
> > > >
> > My point is that two boxes with DSP could be replaced by one box with
> > DSP, both for simplicity and cost.
> > > >
>
> It is not assured that simplicity or cost savings would be obtained by
> shring logic.. DSP chips are way down in price.


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[jh901]

The basics of Audyssey in modern AVRs/AVPs are about as easy as one
could expect. I'm personally not interested in this sort of calibration
or DSP for audiophile hi-end stereo systems. I'm mostly interested in
the digital transport developments, USB DACs, and the possible
integration of the traditional line level pre-amp into the DAC unit
(direct to power amp). I'd certainly like for their to be a "digital
world" where the DSD layer of SACDs can be ripped legally and just as
easily as the PCM layer can.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ralphpnj]

jh901 wrote:
> The basics of Audyssey in modern AVRs/AVPs are about as easy as one
> could expect. I'm personally not interested in this sort of calibration
> or DSP for audiophile hi-end stereo systems. I'm mostly interested in
> the digital transport developments, USB DACs, and the possible
> integration of the traditional line level pre-amp into the DAC unit
> (direct to power amp). I'd certainly like for there to be a "digital
> world" where the DSD layer of SACDs can be ripped legally and just as
> easily as the PCM layer can.

I can understand your dismissal of using DSP in an "audiophile hi-end
stereo system" but what about using DSP and DRC (digital room
correction) to produce a stereo system that is not only much less costly
but also much less complicated (music server + an all-in-one stereo
speaker system) than a more traditional hi-end stereo system and yet,
now here is the kicker, sounds at least as good as the traditional
stereo system. Good sound that affordable for many more people, is that
so bad?



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[jh901]

ralphpnj wrote:
> I can understand your dismissal of using DSP in an "audiophile hi-end
> stereo system" but what about using DSP and DRC (digital room
> correction) to produce a stereo system that is not only much less costly
> but also much less complicated (music server + an all-in-one stereo
> speaker system) than a more traditional hi-end stereo system and yet,
> now here is the kicker, sounds at least as good as the traditional
> stereo system. Good sound that affordable for many more people, is that
> so bad?

I don't necessarily have an argument against the notion that DSP+DRC can
deliver good sound that is affordable to nearly everyone. I can tell
you for sure that I wouldn't anyone to believe for one second that it
takes the investment I've made in order to create a rather special
experience. The 'music server + an all-in-one stereo speaker system'
may very well may bring the home stereo system back into the mainstream.
Wouldn't it be great if ten or twenty percent more families would spin
records together rather than watching tv on those nights when "there's
nothing good on"!?



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[arnyk]

jh901 wrote:
> I don't necessarily have an argument against the notion that DSP+DRC can
> deliver good sound that is affordable to nearly everyone. I can tell
> you for sure that I wouldn't anyone to believe for one second that it
> takes the investment I've made in order to create a rather special
> experience. The 'music server + an all-in-one stereo speaker system'
> may very well may bring the home stereo system back into the mainstream.
> Wouldn't it be great if ten or twenty percent more families would spin
> records together rather than watching tv on those nights when "there's
> nothing good on"!?
>

Ain't gonna happen. If you haven't noticed, its an Audio/Video not an
Audio-only world, and the modern generation has little time for
audio-only reproduction systems, except possibly as portable systems and
lately not even that.


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[ralphpnj]

jh901 wrote:
> I don't necessarily have an argument against the notion that DSP+DRC can
> deliver good sound that is affordable to nearly everyone. I can tell
> you for sure that I wouldn't anyone to believe for one second that it
> takes the investment I've made in order to create a rather special
> experience. The 'music server + an all-in-one stereo speaker system'
> may very well may bring the home stereo system back into the mainstream.
> Wouldn't it be great if ten or twenty percent more families would spin
> records together rather than watching tv on those nights when "there's
> nothing good on"!?
>
> Finally, I can't permanently outright dismiss active room correction and
> DSP even in a "purist" system. Times change and technology improves.
> Mistakes are sometimes made along the way, but then there's a
> breakthrough. I won't do myself any favors by sealing the door shut on
> methods to enhance the listening experience.

I could not agree more.

While this thread is has been focused on the all-in-one speaker
"solution" there are many other areas where digital technology can be a
game changer. For example the lack of physical media required to
distribute music, e.g. direct downloads, the ability to make bit perfect
copies, e.g. digital piracy, and the ability to have one copy provide
audio for many listeners, e.g. streaming. Yes I know all of these things
are here today and not in the future but since the high end audio world
seems to be about 10 years behind the rest of the audio world these
digital wonders have barely made a dent in high end audio.

To me it seems that for every step forward high end audio appears to
take two steps back. So in the case of streaming audio where the
Squeezebox system provided many workable solutions the high end audio
world is mired in the laptop -> USB cable -> USB DAC -> amp -> speakers
paradigm with the lusting after DSD thrown in for even more confusion.
Go figure.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Archimago]

jh901 wrote:
> I don't necessarily have an argument against the notion that DSP+DRC can
> deliver good sound that is affordable to nearly everyone. I can tell
> you for sure that I wouldn't anyone to believe for one second that it
> takes the investment I've made in order to create a rather special
> experience. The 'music server + an all-in-one stereo speaker system'
> may very well may bring the home stereo system back into the mainstream.
> Wouldn't it be great if ten or twenty percent more families would spin
> records together rather than watching tv on those nights when "there's
> nothing good on"!?
>
> Finally, I can't permanently outright dismiss active room correction and
> DSP even in a "purist" system. Times change and technology improves.
> Mistakes are sometimes made along the way, but then there's a
> breakthrough. I won't do myself any favors by sealing the door shut on
> methods to enhance the listening experience.

I would suggest *not dismissing the power of DRC at all*! IMO, it has
proven essential for me in listening these days. I think this is
especially true with stereo "audiophile" systems because there is only
one sweet spot; and that sweet spot can be made amazingly sweet!
Improved accuracy of frequency and time domain issues are very obvious -
more so than any DAC / amp / pre-amp change IMO. And infinitely more
beneficial than cable changes the way I see things.

I've actually been able to achieve some excellent sound even with the
free DRC software and back in the old days Inguz with Squeezebox so
there's no need to spend a ton of money to get some major benefits
already.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Gandhi]

DRC is the poor man's 'room full of fluffy stuff'. If you have the time,
space and funding to build a dedicated listening room with the help of
audio engineers going bananas, I presume you don't need DRC at all. But
there might be contraints, financial or perhaps estethic. DRC can help a
lot, but not all the way.

There are different problems in audio with different orders of
magnitude. Listening room acoustics is high up on that scale and DRC can
help correcting that problem. Much, much more rewarding per monetary
unit and time spent than for instance replacing an amplifier with THD
0.005% to one with 0.0005% (which also would be pointless).

Another advantage is that in the process one measures and quantifies the
sound quality and usually present it in a visual way. After applying a
suitable filter you can usually also see the improvement visually. DRC
gives audible results, often substantial, but for the skeptic who likes
seeing those in numbers, the process has inherent proof.

So, why is DRC not everywhere already? As it's possible to automate it,
there is no hard reason. At least according to my head, where I live.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
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[Julf]

Gandhi wrote:
> Another advantage is that in the process one measures and quantifies the
> sound quality and usually present it in a visual way. After applying a
> suitable filter you can usually also see the improvement visually. DRC
> gives audible results, often substantial, but for the skeptic who likes
> seeing those in numbers, the process has inherent proof.

And for the believer, seeing the graphs makes it even more certain that
they will hear the improvements... :)

Numbers and graphs don't actually "prove" any audible improvement.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Gandhi]

Julf wrote:
> And for the believer, seeing the graphs makes it even more certain that
> they will hear the improvements... :)
>
> Numbers and graphs don't actually "prove" any audible improvement.

That's often right, but I'd say that it depends on the order of
magnitude of change.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Gandhi]

Gandhi wrote:
> That's often right, but I'd say that it depends on the order of
> magnitude of change.

In my case I have tamed the bass from -1dB ... +6dB to a quite flat one,
+/- 1dB. It would be very hard not to hear. And it's interesting to see
it quantified.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Archimago]

Gandhi wrote:
> In my case I have tamed the bass in my too small room from -1dB ... +6dB
> to a quite flat one, +/- 1dB. It would be very hard not to notice the
> improvement. And it's interesting to see it quantified.


Wow. Fantastic results Gandhi!

Likewise, although not to +/-1dB, more like +/-3 dB for me, the
difference is remarkable. I already have a couple of side panels to tame
1st reflections from glass in-wall storage for my
CD/Blu-rays/headphones/etc. which made a difference with reverberation
time in the mid-range. Also have my LP collection to the back to act as
scatter. But those panels would do nothing with bass unevenness.

To achieve what was doable with DRC I suspect would have been very
costly and not particularly esthetically pleasing to most rooms!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Gandhi]

Archimago wrote:
> Wow. Fantastic results Gandhi!

Yes, REW and BrutefirDRC are surprisingly efficient. I would never have
imagined. I would actually have paid a lot for a commercial solution to
get this result, but as I didn't know the power of DRC (and I'm also
cheap), I figured I'd try free software first. Sometimes you're just
lucky!

The bottom range would otherwise be very difficult to fix without large
bass traps, which is not an option here.

Archimago wrote:
> Likewise, although not to +/-1dB, more like +/-3 dB for me, the
> difference is remarkable. I already have a couple of side panels to tame
> 1st reflections from glass in-wall storage for my
> CD/Blu-rays/headphones/etc. which made a difference with reverberation
> time in the mid-range. Also have my LP collection to the back to act as
> scatter. But those panels would do nothing with bass unevenness.
>
> To achieve what was doable with DRC I suspect would have been very
> costly and not particularly esthetically pleasing to most rooms!
>

I really should have some panels too, mainly behind my head (small
room), but I try to manage without. Having a good bookshelf, a decent
carpet and fluffy furniture helps. Though I'm sure it would be very
beneficial behind me, I will never ever resort to 'audiophile art'! :-)
Are your panels large or are they just to fix the sweet spot? Do they
help outside it? Is it a big improvement?

Archimago wrote:
> Another thing that's great with DRC FIR filters is the ability to do
> time-domain corrections. This definitely has improved soundstage and
> imaging in my room beyond flat frequency response and channel balance.

Amen to that.

What frequency range do you correct and are you happy with it? I only do
20-200Hz, but there's a lump at 300-400Hz which I should probably fix
too, although I'm afraid of fiddling too much with the frequencies of
the human voice. Do you have any recommendations or rules of thumb? Have
you experimented?



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847

[Archimago]

Gandhi wrote:
> Yes, REW and BrutefirDRC are surprisingly efficient. I would never have
> imagined. I would actually have paid a lot for a commercial solution to
> get this result, but as I didn't know the power of DRC (and I'm also
> cheap), I figured I'd try free software first. Sometimes you're just
> lucky!
>
> The bottom range would otherwise be very difficult to fix without large
> bass traps, which is not an option here.
>
>
>
> I really should have some panels too, mainly behind my head (small
> room), but I try to manage without. Having a good bookshelf, a decent
> carpet and fluffy furniture helps. Though I'm sure it would be very
> beneficial behind me, I will never ever resort to 'audiophile art'! :-)
> Are your panels large or are they just to fix the sweet spot? Do they
> help outside it? Is it a big improvement?
>
>
>
> Amen to that.
>
> What frequency range do you correct and are you happy with it? I only do
> 20-200Hz, but there's a lump at 300-400Hz which I should probably fix
> too, although I'm afraid of fiddling too much with the frequencies of
> the human voice. Do you have any recommendations or rules of thumb? Have
> you experimented?

Hey Gandhi,
I used REW and parametric EQ until earlier this year. I used to just
apply 20-150Hz or so; leaving the rest of the mids and trebles since it
was relatively accurate already.

Last few months, I've been use DRCDesigner to do the measurements,
target curve adjustment and it incorporates the free DRC package to
calculate the filters... I've experimented a bit and generally like the
traditional B&K target curves (either B&K1 or B&K3) and I've had great
success with applying correction through the whole 20Hz-20kHz spectrum!
I've been using the JRiver convolution engine (a bit of a twisted route
with DLNA/UPnP to access the Squeezebox library).

Have used REW to verify the frequency response improvement as well as
verified significantly improved impulse response in the time domain with
each channel so know that what I'm hearing corresponds to objective
accuracy. :-)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[Gandhi]

Archimago wrote:
> Hey Gandhi,
> I used REW and parametric EQ until earlier this year. I used to just
> apply 20-150Hz or so; leaving the rest of the mids and trebles since it
> was relatively accurate already.
>
> Last few months, I've been use DRCDesigner to do the measurements,
> target curve adjustment and it incorporates the free DRC package to
> calculate the filters... I've experimented a bit and generally like the
> traditional B&K target curves (either B&K1 or B&K3) and I've had great
> success with applying correction through the whole 20Hz-20kHz spectrum!
> I've been using the JRiver convolution engine (a bit of a twisted route
> with DLNA/UPnP to access the Squeezebox library).
>
> Have used REW to verify the frequency response improvement as well as
> verified significantly improved impulse response in the time domain with
> each channel so know that what I'm hearing corresponds to objective
> accuracy. :-)

Hello Archi!
I have never tried DRCDesigner and only just now checked the how-to on
their website. But I'm not sure I understand the benefit of using
DRCDesigner instead of for instance REW (which is incredibly
comprehensive). Does it make better measurements or calculations? Or is
it perhaps the convolver plugin you are after?



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847

[Archimago]

Gandhi wrote:
> Hello Archi!
> I have never tried DRCDesigner and only just now checked the how-to on
> their website. But I'm not sure I understand the benefit of using
> DRCDesigner instead of for instance REW (which is incredibly
> comprehensive). Does it make better measurements or calculations? Or is
> it perhaps the convolver plugin you are after?

I see DRCDesigner as a "cheap man's" AudioLense, Acourate, or Dirac.
Simple but reasonable UI, easy way to measure room impulse up to 24/96
for each stereo channel separately, simple design of target curve and
easy batch creation of FIR filters for convolution plug-ins like the one
in JRiver. Works well and you can customize the "strength" of the
correction used by DRC to calculate these FIR filters.

Although I use REW to do a number of measurements, and in the past have
used it to calculate parametric EQ settings for my room, is it capable
of producing FIR filters these days?

JRiver DSP upsamples my music and calculations performed in 96kHz...
Perfect for the Transporter on playback. I like the results better than
my Onkyo's Odyssey MultEQ XT (not XT32) result.

Has anyone seen a good writeup comparing DRC packages like the
aforementioned AudioLens/Acourate/Dirac vs. DRC? One limitation of the
free DRC/Designer is that only one location can be measured. For me, I
think this is fine for stereo - I just care about the sweetspot and
doubt this is a significant problem.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[Gandhi]

Archimago wrote:
> I see DRCDesigner as a "cheap man's" AudioLense, Acourate, or Dirac.
> Simple but reasonable UI, easy way to measure room impulse up to 24/96
> for each stereo channel separately, simple design of target curve and
> easy batch creation of FIR filters for convolution plug-ins like the one
> in JRiver. Works well and you can customize the "strength" of the
> correction used by DRC to calculate these FIR filters.

Drawing the target curve is a nice way of creating it. It's hard to
understand the effect of the custom filters without trying them ears on,
but it seems you find them helpful. As far as I understand it, it would
be far more difficult to do that in REW.

Archimago wrote:
> Although I use REW to do a number of measurements, and in the past have
> used it to calculate parametric EQ settings for my room, is it capable
> of producing FIR filters these days?

You can export the impulse response to a WAV file. I use the WAV with
the LMS plugin BruteFirDrc, which uses the convolution engine BruteFIR,
http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/brutefir.html. BruteFIR only works in
*ix (hum, could that possibly be changed?). It is optimised for Intel,
but someone recompiled it for ARM and it worked.

Archimago wrote:
> One limitation of the free DRC/Designer is that only one location can be
> measured. For me, I think this is fine for stereo - I just care about
> the sweetspot and doubt this is a significant problem.

In REW all you can do automatically is averaging multiple measurements.
I wonder if there is a better way of solving that problem automatically?
Optimise with respect to what? You could of course override anything
manually.

Archimago wrote:
> Has anyone seen a good writeup comparing DRC packages like the
> aforementioned AudioLens/Acourate/Dirac vs. DRC?

That would be very interesting. I must say I am a bit skeptic about the
commercial softwares. Some of them comes highly recommended, but I'm not
convinced that those developers know more about filters than others.
(They are also quite pricy. Small companies with low sales volumes, I
guess.)



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847

[Archimago]

Gandhi wrote:
> Drawing the target curve is a nice way of creating it. It's hard to
> understand the effect of the custom filters without trying them ears on,
> but it seems you find them helpful. As far as I understand it, it would
> be far more difficult to do that in REW.
>

Drawing the target curve clearly changes the sound and this can be heard
and confirmed with REW when I measure the effect... Of course there are
limits to this since not every suck-out can/should be corrected by the
DSP.

>
> You can export the impulse response to a WAV file. I use the WAV with
> the LMS plugin BruteFirDrc, which uses the convolution engine BruteFIR,
> http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/brutefir.html. BruteFIR only works in
> *ix (hum, could that possibly be changed?). It is optimised for Intel,
> but someone recompiled it for ARM and it worked.
>

I've always wondered if BruteFIR can be converted to Windows. I don't
see why not! Anyone out there have done this?

I looked around earlier this year and could not find Windows binaries
before upgrading to JRiver 20. The nice thing with JRiver 20 is that the
DSP processing can now be applied to DLNA/UPnP libraries before
streaming out. This allows my server computer which has a decently
powerful CPU to do all the processing to whatever device I have with the
power of the JRiver UI to get the upsampling and DSP chain the way I
like. I just have to get the room response, load it up on the server
with JRiver running, and away it goes for streaming to whatever DLNA
device I have...

Note though that I really still HATE DLNA/UPNP since I feel LMS is so
much better, faster, more flexible... If someone could build a good DSP
engine into it (alas Inguz is too unreliable for me and seems
abandoned?), there could be lots of fun to be had!

>
> In REW all you can do automatically is averaging multiple measurements.
> I wonder if there is a better way of solving that problem automatically?
> Optimise with respect to what? You could of course override anything
> manually.
>

Hmmm. I'll have to try this out when I have time!

>
> That would be very interesting. I must say I am a bit skeptic about the
> commercial softwares. Some of them comes highly recommended, but I'm not
> convinced that those developers know more about filters than others.
> (They are also quite pricy. Small companies with low sales volumes, I
> guess.)

This has been my issue with the commercial DRC software as well... They
do seem pricy: Acourate 286 Euro for non-EU country, Dirac $500CAD
stereo & $900CAD multichannel, AudioLense at least 165 Euro for basic
version to 390 Euro for the XO version.

Would be great if someone could compare/contrast and provide an opinion!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[krzys]

Hi guys, I tried DRC and used Audiolense and now Acourate. I never had
success with DRC with my horn system. It is very complicated to get it
right even with DRCdesigner. There is so many variables....
Do you really think that Acourate is expensive at about 450 CDN? I don't
. This is much less than any half decent DAC or any other hifi equipment
(cables!!!) but the effects on sound are bigger by several magnitude .
orders.
If someone can get good results with free DRC then fine, but those
commercial packages are very powerful and friendly and a must in case of
FIR XO which I do.
Chris


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[Archimago]

krzys wrote:
> Hi guys, I tried DRC and used Audiolense and now Acourate. I never had
> success with DRC with my horn system. It is very complicated to get it
> right even with DRCdesigner. There is so many variables....
> Do you really think that Acourate is expensive at about 450 CDN? I don't
> . This is much less than any half decent DAC or any other hifi equipment
> (cables!!!) but the effects on sound are bigger by several magnitude .
> orders.
> If someone can get good results with free DRC then fine, but those
> commercial packages are very powerful and friendly and a must in case of
> FIR XO which I do.
> Chris

No $450 isn't expensive in itself. Just that I have not seen head to
head comparisons with the full package for each one. Would you say
Acourate has been better than Audiolense in your experience with sound
quality? Curious why you switched... Also, do the Acourate filters play
well with BruteFir, JRiver, Inguz? I've certainly been eyeing the
Acourate XO package...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[krzys]

Archimago first I want to thank you for your work comparing different
equipment and samplings and .... I followed it since I'm an early SB
user (from SB2) but not anymore now.

There is so much to say on that subject. I will try to summarize.
I switched for Acourate for a lot different reasons. First I had the
stereo only DRC version of Audiolense. When I wanted to go to Digital XO
and I had to made choice between the both A... software. I read
everything I could (there are some comparisons, maybe not complete but
google Acourate vs Audiolense).
I went to Acourate based on some good reports from very knowledgeable
people like Mitchco and Bob Katz, both sound engineers.
I can't compare directly the XO versions. I think that Audiolense is a
very good package, user friendly but a bit too automated. Acourate is
more open but with a long learning curve. There is no manual per se but
Mitchco wrote some articles and the designer, Uli B., helps a lot via
email or via the Yahoo group. Acourate is very powerful, not so friendly
and not for a beginner or for somebody who looks for simplicity. But for
a guy like you ;), no problem.....
The results are very good. This is the best sound I ever had and it is
for 4 way with two additional subs and three horns from 250 Hz up.....in
a to small room. My friend made the same choice and it uses it just to
DRC his commercial Focal speakers with very nice results too.

Acourate produces filters in stereo (by channel) wav format perfect for
any convolution engine. I use JRiver with 10 channels convolution.
Chris


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[Archimago]

krzys wrote:
> Archimago first I want to thank you for your work comparing different
> equipment and samplings and .... I followed it since I'm an early SB
> user (from SB2) but not anymore now.
>
> There is so much to say on that subject. I will try to summarize.
> I switched for Acourate for a lot different reasons. First I had the
> stereo only DRC version of Audiolense. When I wanted to go to Digital XO
> and I had to made choice between the both A... software. I read
> everything I could (there are some comparisons, maybe not complete but
> google Acourate vs Audiolense).
> I went to Acourate based on some good reports from very knowledgeable
> people like Mitchco and Bob Katz, both sound engineers.
> I can't compare directly the XO versions. I think that Audiolense is a
> very good package, user friendly but a bit too automated. Acourate is
> more open but with a long learning curve. There is no manual per se but
> Mitchco wrote some articles and the designer, Uli B., helps a lot via
> email or via the Yahoo group. Acourate is very powerful, not so friendly
> and not for a beginner or for somebody who looks for simplicity. But for
> a guy like you ;), no problem.....
> The results are very good. This is the best sound I ever had and it is
> for 4 way with two additional subs and three horns from 250 Hz up.....in
> a to small room. My friend made the same choice and it uses it just to
> DRC his commercial Focal speakers with very nice results too.
>
> Acourate produces filters in stereo (by channel) wav format perfect for
> any convolution engine. I use JRiver with 10 channels convolution.
> Chris

Thanks for the note Chris! Sounds like you have one heck of a tuned
speaker set-up! I'll have to think about trying my hand at this one day
:-).

I wasn't clear from the Acourate web site, but is there any issue
creating correction filters for surround sound/5.1+ systems? If it can
do surround, I'm ready to whip out the credit card...



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[krzys]

It definitely can. I saw discussion about it in the Acourate Yahoo
discussion group. One of the treads is : Getting best reproduction from
5.1 setup using Acourate
My best advice is to contact Uli from his site
http://www.audiovero.de/en/contact-form.php
Chris


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[Archimago]

krzys wrote:
> It definitely can. I saw discussion about it in the Acourate Yahoo
> discussion group. One of the treads is : Getting best reproduction from
> 5.1 setup using Acourate
> My best advice is to contact Uli from his site
> http://www.audiovero.de/en/contact-form.php
> Chris

Sounds good! Likely credit card coming out to play early next week :-)



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[Gandhi]

Archimago wrote:
> I've always wondered if BruteFIR can be converted to Windows. I don't
> see why not! Anyone out there have done this?

I have often wondered if it could be done with Cygwin. It would seem
reasonable, but I have not found a port yet and my skill set does not
include such matters. Cygwin gurus! Do ya thang!

Archimago wrote:
> I wasn't clear from the Acourate web site, but is there any issue
> creating correction filters for surround sound/5.1+ systems? If it can
> do surround, I'm ready to whip out the credit card...

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87579.0
"There is a description of one process for multichannel on acourate in
the acourate yahoo group (registration required), it boils down to
treating it as a set of stereo channels (l+r, l+c, l+sr etc)."

With this methodology one could even use REW (which is stereo only), but
it would be quite messy. BruteFIR supports an arbitrary number of
channels.

But I'll stop yapping about REW and BruteFIR now. :-)



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847

[Archimago]

Gandhi wrote:
> I have often wondered if it could be done with Cygwin. It would seem
> reasonable, but I have not found a port yet and my skill set does not
> include such matters. Cygwin gurus! Do ya thang!
>
>
>
> http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87579.0
> "There is a description of one process for multichannel on acourate in
> the acourate yahoo group (registration required), it boils down to
> treating it as a set of stereo channels (l+r, l+c, l+sr etc)."
>
> With this methodology one could even use REW (which is stereo only), but
> it would be quite messy. BruteFIR supports an arbitrary number of
> channels.
>
> But I'll stop yapping about REW and BruteFIR now. :-)

Thanks... Along those lines of treating it as multiple stereo channels,
here's a detailed workflow I found:
http://digitalroomcorrection.hk/http___www.digitalroomcorrection.hk_/Multichannel_Workflow.html

Looks like a pain in the backside :-). Hopefully can be done reasonably
quickly once one gets the hang of how this program works!



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[Gandhi]

Archimago wrote:
> Thanks... Along those lines of treating it as multiple stereo channels,
> here's a detailed workflow I found:
> http://digitalroomcorrection.hk/http___www.digitalroomcorrection.hk_/Multichannel_Workflow.html
>
> Looks like a pain in the backside :-). Hopefully can be done reasonably
> quickly once one gets the hang of how this program works!

Ah, yes. Pain. Please don't forget to nail all furniture and equipment
down, even the cat, so that you don't have to follow this procedure ever
again. The nailing also helps when you correct to 20kHz, but then you
should probably also fixate your neck with screws, metal plates and
rods. And yes. Pain.

I found a couple of very instructive general write-ups (gosh, there's a
lot to be learned!):

Guide to speaker/room correction using freeware and JRiver
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87538.0

Equalizing your home theater system with the nanoAVR and UMIK-1
http://www.minidsp.com/applications/home-theater-tuning/equalization-with-nanoavr



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

krzys wrote:
> Do you really think that Acourate is expensive at about 450 CDN? I don't
> . This is much less than any half decent DAC or any other hifi equipment
> (cables!!!) but the effects on sound are bigger by several magnitude .
> orders.
> If someone can get good results with free DRC then fine, but those
> commercial packages are very powerful and friendly and a must in case of
> FIR XO which I do.

By today's software price standards, 450 is a pretty expensive piece of
software - but more importantly, often the open source packages have
better functionality (OK, user interface might be more rough, but
usually the algorithms are better - just look at SoX).



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[krzys]

You are right in the mass market software context. This software is for
niche market, small volume sales and is supported by their creators. In
the HiFi world 450 $ are peanuts ;)
For me software which does crossovers and DRC for 10 channels at this
price is still ok. I'm convinced that this is the most valuable expense
in an audio system way ahead of any other piece of equipment.
I suggest that anyone interested tries the free and paid software. The
most important is to use DRC at first.
Chris


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[Julf]

krzys wrote:
> I suggest that anyone interested tries the free and paid software. The
> most important is to use DRC at first.

I definitely agree.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Gandhi]

Gandhi wrote:
> In REW all you can do automatically is averaging multiple measurements.
> I wonder if there is a better way of solving that problem automatically?
> Optimise with respect to what?

I found a sensible answer to that question. Can't believe I didn't think
of that myself.

"Dirac Live uses several measurement positions (9 typically) in the
listening room. This way, it is possible to find consistent acoustic
problems. Only these should be corrected."
http://www.dirac.se/en/technologies/dirac-live/technical-description.aspx


Of course, they don't mention how they define "consistent". Relative or
absolute difference? Perhaps an absolute difference of +/- 1dB would
suffice for amplitude. But what about the width of the corresponding
frequency band? That would have to be relative? Or could it perhaps be
possible to define consistency from the filter coefficients?

What do the experts (y'all) say?



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
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[Mnyb]

Gandhi wrote:
> I found a sensible answer to that question. Can't believe I didn't think
> of that myself.
>
> "Dirac Live uses several measurement positions (9 typically) in the
> listening room. This way, it is possible to find consistent acoustic
> problems. Only these should be corrected."
> http://www.dirac.se/en/technologies/dirac-live/technical-description.aspx
>
>
> Of course, they don't mention how they define "consistent". Relative or
> absolute difference? Perhaps an absolute difference of +/- 1dB would
> suffice for amplitude. But what about the width of the corresponding
> frequency band? And what about the shape of the lumps? Or could it
> perhaps be possible to define consistency from the filter coefficients?
>
>
> What do the experts (y'all) say?

I'm no expert but i do think that consistent means that if a resonance
peak shows up in all positions it should really be compensated . If its
in one forget about it .
If the levels differs in the multiple positions find a sensible average
? That's my thinking , a pro may have a better idea .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Gandhi]

Mnyb wrote:
> I'm no expert but i do think that consistent means that if a resonance
> peak shows up in all positions it should really be compensated . If its
> in one forget about it .
> If the levels differs in the multiple positions find a sensible average
> ? That's my thinking , a pro may have a better idea .

Ah, yes. Sorry, must be a bit dense today. The frequency for the peaks
that occur in multiple measurements are by defintion the same,
regardless of which measurement. The size is a different matter, but
something simple would probably suffice. Good approach.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847

[arnyk]

jh901 wrote:
> The basics of Audyssey in modern AVRs/AVPs are about as easy as one
> could expect. I'm personally not interested in this sort of calibration
> or DSP for audiophile hi-end stereo systems. I'm mostly interested in
> the digital transport developments, USB DACs, and the possible
> integration of the traditional line level pre-amp into the DAC unit
> (direct to power amp). I'd certainly like for there to be a "digital
> world" where the DSD layer of SACDs can be ripped legally and just as
> easily as the PCM layer can.

Typical of self-defeating audiophile prejudices.

The potential audible benefits of:

Digital transport developments,
USB DACs,
and the possible integration of the traditional line level pre-amp into
the DAC unit (direct to power amp).

is zero.


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[jh901]

arnyk wrote:
> Typical of self-defeating audiophile prejudices.
>
>


arnyk wrote:
>
>
> The potential audible benefits of:
>
> is zero.

No comment.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
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