[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How good are the analog outputs on Classic & Touch?

[Guy48065]

I imagine this has been asked before--but maybe not EXACTLY the same
way...
I've been enjoying my Classic for over 5 years running the digital out
into an AV receiver. Never used the analog outs and never paid any
attention to any posts discussing them. But NOW I also have a Touch and
wish to put one of them in my basement all-analog system. Which sounds
better? On an absolute scale how good is the analog?



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[Mnyb]

How good is the basement system ? They are both competently designed
digital products so the basement system has to be pretty good for it to
matter at all . They are both as good as a typical CD player .

Touch is slightly better , I think you can google up measurements by for
example Archimago or stereophile. Touch is slower THD and noise .

touch also supports 24/96 vs 24/48 k for the classic , if that matters
to you . If you don't mind the serverload from transcoding it might not
matter much .

However check that the analog out actually works even if you never used
them , some classic/SB3 have a problem with that .

In the end it can be a toss up :) which one do you use most ,do you like
the displays and where are listening in most concentrated manner . If
one player is just for background music , that is also a factor .

If you only listen to 128kps MP3 files it won't matter as the files is
the limiting factor ....



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
How good is the basement system ? They are both competently designed
digital products so the basement system has to be pretty good for it to
matter at all . They are both as good as a typical CD player .
Touch is slightly better , I think you can google up measurements by for
example Archimago or stereophile. Touch is slower THD and noise .
touch also supports 24/96 vs 24/48 k for the classic , if that matters
to you . If you don't mind the serverload from transcoding it might not
matter much .
However check that the analog out actually works even if you never used
them , some classic/SB3 have a problem with that .
In the end it can be a toss up :) which one do you use most ,do you like
the displays and where are listening in most concentrated manner . If
one player is just for background music , that is also a factor .
If you only listen to 128kps MP3 files it won't matter as the files is
the limiting factor ....

Excellent answer Mnyb and that pretty much covers it.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Guy48065]

"Good" is subjective & relative ;)
It's a 1980 system that's been boxed up for the past 15 years until my
kids grew up & I could reclaim the space.
Good enough that I could clearly hear how lousy the first DVD player
(Philips) sounded on CD and the next (Pioneer) was far better.

[image:
Loading Image...]

The upstairs system is just a basic Yamaha AV receiver driving mini
satellites & powered sub in a not-ideal 5.1 configuration...so the
basement is much more purist.



Squeezebox Touch
Notebook serving .3T library
Control:
Samsung phone or tablet + SqueezeCommander,
Duet remote
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[ralphpnj]

Well based on your updated information I would say to leave the Classic
in the upstairs system and use the Touch (analog output) in the
downstairs retro purist system. :)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Mnyb]

Then you put your Touch in the basement .

Cool that the 80's equipment still works :) did you service it , I which
I could have collected all the hifi stuff I ever owned ( I have borrowed
out some old speakers to friends to preserve them )

Is that an old gas Thalia preamp or something ? Or a mod squad .

If the preamp is semi passive I suggest you try each player . Touch for
example have a slightly high output impedance , this is not a problem
with typical preamps with >10k very linear impedance inputs .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Guy48065]

Oracle Delphi TT with Rega RB300 arm and a Monster Alpha1 Mc ctg.
PS Audio 4 preamp (modded).
Symmetry crossover.
VSP Labs TransMos 150 amp for the sattelites.
A fine old Dyna Stereo 400 on bass.
Speakers by Unity Audio.
Cabling by Randall Research, Kimber, and assorted junk.

DVD player is unsettled at the moment.
A buddy has a DAC to lend...it would be nice to use a cheap blu-ray
player as transport for cd playback.
If I get the DAC then I might put the Classic in the basement. I've
quickly grown to like the display on the Touch and prefer it in the
living room where I spend more time.

The gear has stood time very well. The only thing I had to open up was
the preamp. ALL the switches & pots had gotten crackly and needed a
cleaning. Cramolin took care of all the external connections, as
routine maintenance.
I had to re-cone the subs a few years ago.



Squeezebox Touch
Notebook serving .3T library
Control:
Samsung phone or tablet + SqueezeCommander,
Duet remote
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[Fizbin]

I never understood the concept of different systems in different rooms.
Why listen to the bedroom system when you can listen to the superior
living room system, down the hall? For me there can only be ONE system.
But, hey, that's just me.


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[Mnyb]

1. Family ( or spouse ) you have own time with the hifi listening to
music no one will hear :)

2. Living room can be unsuitable for proper listening , ( usually a
function of 1 due to interior design demands.... )

3. A really dedicated listening area .

Hey nothing wrong with multiple listening a spots I have 4 of them :) ,
for example even if my proper hifi reaches the loggia/balcony it is
better with speakers close by and a dedicated bedroom system etc .

4 it's not easy to combine home theatre with hifi it gets quite messy
fast and numerous strange compromises arise .
I've even done with older speakers and my old hifi . It never worked any
good for the movies proper timbre match between speakers is critical .
The vintage system can not be properly integrated into the home theatre
.

On topic . If you want a DAC down in the basement , make sure it's post

year 2000 design by some good margin not a vintage design unless you

like the cool factor :) but performance did increase dramatically during
the 90's nowadays my iPhone 6 has better analog out performance than my
first Meridian DAC .

CD have you not yet ripped all your CD's to a lossles format ( flac )
and use LMS and your squeezeboxes ? Do that . A streaming device is the
ultimate transport if you done bitperfect rips ( you do that with dB
power amp or eac or similar with accurate rip dB functionality ) you are
guaranteed that every thing on the cd is streamed every time completely
consistent . A mechanical transport does not do that for you .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Guy48065]

Baby steps. My living rooom system is typical mass market 5.1 gear.
Gets the job done, but not with the greatest fidelity. Room is very
limiting of speaker placement so the tv & speakers are a corner
placement.
Basement is my retreat to listen to vinyl and I'm only recently
interested in including dvd, tv, and digital streaming. If I find it
detracts from the vinyl experience, it goes.



Squeezebox Touch
Notebook serving .3T library
Control:
Samsung phone or tablet + SqueezeCommander,
Duet remote
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[sckramer]

This is the audiophile section, so hopefully I won't get raked over the
coals to harshly, cause this is subjective :D

I just tried the touch analog out (never really tried it before) on my
main system... it just sounds mediocre & grainy, you really should at
least experiment with a dac!

It sounds better on my computer setup... psaudio sprout & elac B6's --
but meh, I'm spoiled.



CiAudio VDC-SB - raspberry pi b+ hifiberry digi+ (BNC added, removed
TOSlink, HDMI disable) piCorePlayer (play song from RAM)
--> Use as controller/desk/reference: Touch (EDO / displayoff plugin,
linear power, removed analog coupling caps, removed TOSlink & resistor,
added spdif isolation transformer & bnc jack )
PSAudio TRIO C-100 (Cullen III, IcePower 300ASC's) - DL3 DAC (Cullen IV)
- Energy Veritas w/Mundorf/Erse Xovers - 2x MartinLogan Descent i -
Dectet - Cardas - BlackCat XV-Ultra
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[ralphpnj]

Post by sckramer
This is the audiophile section, so hopefully I won't get raked over the
coals too harshly, cause this is subjective :D
I just tried the touch analog out (never really used it) on my main
system... it just sounds mediocre & grainy, you really should at least
experiment with a dac!

I also did a sighted, subjective comparison of the Touch analog out on
my main system and compared it with the Transporter's analog out and
there was basically no difference. Hey that's the beauty of subjective
listening - it's all in the ears of the listener!

That said, I still agree with your suggestion to "least experiment with
a dac", if possible.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[mlsstl]

Some years back I ran a Squeezebox 3 (Classic) with a Lavry DAC. When
the Touch arrived, I did a synced, back-to-back, level-matched
comparison of the Touch's analog outputs to the SB3/Lavry combo,

I found I could not tell the difference between the two without checking
the position of the amp's input selector switch. I sold the Lavry.

These days I'm using a Bel Canto C5i integrated amp with a built-in DAC
so use that just because it's there. However, I find the Touch's analog
outputs very good. But, I also happily acknowledge that I turned in my
"audiophile" card years ago/


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[StephenPG]

Post by mlsstl
Some years back I ran a Squeezebox 3 (Classic) with a Lavry DAC. When
the Touch arrived, I did a synced, back-to-back, level-matched
comparison of the Touch's analog outputs to the SB3/Lavry combo,
I found I could not tell the difference between the two without checking
the position of the amp's input selector switch. I sold the Lavry.
These days I'm using a Bel Canto C5i integrated amp with a built-in DAC
so use that just because it's there. However, I find the Touch's analog
outputs very good. But, I also happily acknowledge that I turned in my
"audiophile" card years ago/

Ditto. The analogue outs of the Touch are fine.


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[pablolie]

I think the Touch has a very good analog out.

I basically listen to 2 systems a fair amount - (1) my main shrine with
the Benchmark DAC2 acting as a DAC+preamp (2) i set up a system at my
girlfriend's with a SB Touch as the DAC. i prefer 1, but the amps are
clearly different. and i don't think i'd wither and die if i only had to
listen to 2, it is eminently enjoyable and heavens, heaven knows how i
would have had to pay for that audio quality 15 years ago...

diminishing returns... but rewarding ones. Snapshot: the DAC in the
Touch and the SB3 (I lived with the latter for over a year) is plenty
good.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine (on VMware Player) running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS
7.7.5
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem
DreamCatcher + Velodyne Minivee Sub
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado
PS500e/Shure 1540
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[Mnyb]

Post by pablolie
I think the Touch has a very good analog out.
I basically listen to 2 systems a fair amount - (1) my main shrine with
the Benchmark DAC2 acting as a DAC+preamp (2) i set up a system at my
girlfriend's with a SB Touch as the DAC. i prefer 1, but the amps are
clearly different. and i don't think i'd wither and die if i only had to
listen to 2, it is eminently enjoyable and heavens, heaven knows how i
would have had to pay for that audio quality 15 years ago...
diminishing returns... but rewarding ones. Snapshot: the DAC in the
Touch and the SB3 (I lived with the latter directly feeding Audioengine
A5 active speakers for over a year) is plenty good.

The THD + noise in a Touch makes it a practical 17bit ish ? Device
suppose the benchmark has much lower noise floor depending on system
gain and noise ( or the lack of it ) elsewhere it could make some
difference in some situations .

But touch still resolves more than the cd media so it would properly
represent 16/44.1 data at 100% volume .

Using thier respective digital volume . The benchmark probably have a
properly dithered volume control . Touch's 24 bit volume control is not
dithered but the steps are cleverly chosen so it does not really
manifest before you get to really low volumes , where it probably won't
matter anyway .

That said in daily use Touchs volume control is transparent in most
realistic use cases .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Julf]

Touch's 24 bit volume control is not dithered but the steps are cleverly
chosen so it does not really manifest before you get to really low
volumes , where it probably won't matter anyway.

In addition to that, any real-world material contains enough noise to
make it self-dithering at a level well above 24 bits.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[sckramer]

Post by mlsstl
Some years back I ran a Squeezebox 3 (Classic) with a Lavry DAC. When
the Touch arrived, I did a synced, back-to-back, level-matched
comparison of the Touch's analog outputs to the SB3/Lavry combo,
I found I could not tell the difference between the two without checking
the position of the amp's input selector switch. I sold the Lavry.
These days I'm using a Bel Canto C5i integrated amp with a built-in DAC
so use that just because it's there. However, I find the Touch's analog
outputs very good. But, I also happily acknowledge that I turned in my
"audiophile" card years ago/

Back when I was experimenting with this, found some of the same
characteristics in the analog also were in the spdif out (I call it
hash), the couple mods improved the spdif out... just sounds more pure,
especially when trying to listen at night at very low volume.

Now I can A/B it with the rasppi/digi+ (or rasppi/dac+ for analog) (has
to have linear power thru the 5V header on the hifiberry boards) and
it's easy to hear to me.

Also I don't think linear power does much on the touch, however it does
on the hifiberry boards... (luckily didn't sell the power supply)

If anyone has a CIA power supply laying around, def try the
raspi/hifiberry combo.



CiAudio VDC-SB - raspberry pi b+ hifiberry digi+ (BNC added, removed
TOSlink, HDMI disable) piCorePlayer (play song from RAM)
--> Use as controller/desk/reference: Touch (EDO / displayoff plugin,
linear power, removed analog coupling caps, removed TOSlink & resistor,
added spdif isolation transformer & bnc jack )
PSAudio TRIO C-100 (Cullen III, IcePower 300ASC's) - DL3 DAC (Cullen IV)
- Energy Veritas w/Mundorf/Erse Xovers - 2x MartinLogan Descent i -
Dectet - Cardas - BlackCat XV-Ultra
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[Fizbin]

Post by sckramer
This is the audiophile section, so hopefully I won't get raked over the
coals too harshly, cause this is subjective :D
I just tried the touch analog out (never really used it) on my main
system... it just sounds mediocre & grainy, you really should at least
experiment with a dac!
It sounds better on my computer setup... psaudio sprout & elac B6's --
but meh, I'm spoiled.
fyi, also use a Project debut carbon to play around w/vinyl--

No graininess with my Touch. I think you need to look elsewhere as to
what's causing that.


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[Archimago]

Here's my take on the analogue outputs...

Touch:
'\"http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/measurements-slim-devices-logitech.html\"'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/measurements-slim-devices-logitech.html)

SB3 / Classic:
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/measurements-slim-devices-logitech.html

Both very competent products. Objectively the SB3/Classic is a "touch"
weaker on the bass frequency response and gets you close to a 17-bit
noise floor, limited to 48kHz sample rate. The Touch gets you about 17.5
bits noise floor and smoother frequency response along with ability to
play up to 24/96.

Both wonderfully free of jitter (not that I think jitter being audible
in well designed gear).

For comparison, the Transporter:
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/measurements-logitech-transporter.html

19-bit noise floor with XLR balanced cable improving things by about

1/2-bit. Still remains my main player after almost a decade!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[StephenPG]

Thorough as always Archimago. However, properly level matched* I can't
tell the Touch from the Duet, so 'weakest' must be taken in context...


*The analogue outputs of the DAC's in the Touch and Reciever differ by
.2 volts in favour of the Touch, so it will sound significantly louder
in casual tests.


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[Archimago]

Post by StephenPG
Thorough as always Archimago. However, properly level matched* I can't
tell the Touch from the Duet, so 'weakest' must be taken in context...
*The analogue outputs of the DAC's in the Touch and Reciever differ by
.2 volts in favour of the Touch, so it will sound significantly louder
in casual tests.

Yup. True. Objective "weakness" isn't necessarily audible... Just like
the SB3 bass down at -1.5dB at 20Hz. No big deal!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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