Discussion:
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Appropriate non sequitur comic today...
Julf
2016-02-16 13:09:17 UTC
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19964


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"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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steve-g
2016-02-17 10:18:36 UTC
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Very true!


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Archimago
2016-02-17 16:40:50 UTC
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Yup, thanks Julf.

I think it's actually fascinating to think about the psychology of these
folks. A good contemporary example is AudioStream and the most recent
posting as if it is a badge of honour to exclude basically anyone who
questions their philosophy on the basis of creating "civil" discourse. I
suspect they will find out very soon just how this kills the value of
the site and their all-important click count.

I also find it fascinating how they dare to call those who follow their
perspective "the silent majority"... Really? I thought the majority had
already turned themselves off hi-end audio the moment they heard about
the price of power cables and interconnects. Or the common sense to
recognize the lunacy the moment one wades into some of these reviews.

It's a recapitulation of cults and the way they deal with dissent or
criticism. You excommunicate, you stop engaging in valuable discourse
and direct attention at other trivial issues because there's nothing
else to talk about because these ideas are issues of FAITH. And you
especially project your own anger on others as if they were the ones who
had upset the apple cart.

Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic, but I do think the tide is
turning... Probably has been turning for awhile. Maybe they can "fool
some of the people some of the time", but I suspect as the years have
dragged on, the pot of fools have diminished.

... Hmmmm... Maybe time for a blog post on this :-)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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Julf
2016-02-17 17:03:40 UTC
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Post by Archimago
Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic, but I do think the tide is
turning... Probably has been turning for awhile.
As far as audio goes, I think it has turned - long ago. And turned the
silent majority away from anything that even vaguely smells of "hi-fi"
or "high end". Funny enough, in Finland they use the local language
equivalent of "to hi-fi" as a verb to describe engaging in pretentious
obsessiveness.

As to the more general issue of anti-science and rejection of rational
thinking I am less hopeful.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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ralphpnj
2016-02-17 23:09:12 UTC
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Post by Archimago
....
Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic, but I do think the tide is
turning... Probably has been turning for awhile. Maybe they can "fool
some of the people some of the time", but I suspect as the years have
dragged on, the pot of fools have diminished.
... Hmmmm... Maybe time for a blog post on this :-)
As far as audio goes, I think it has turned - long ago. And turned the
silent majority away from anything that even vaguely smells of "hi-fi"
or "high end". Funny enough, in Finland they use the local language
equivalent of "to hi-fi" as a verb to describe engaging in pretentious
obsessiveness.
As to the more general issue of anti-science and rejection of rational
thinking I am less hopeful.
Can you say "bluetooth"?

Stand alone bluetooth speakers paired to smartphones which are in turn
streaming mp3 quality audio is way many people under 30 are currently
experiencing music listening and that "many" will soon become "most".

Between the above plus the constant stream of beliefs that run counter
to science all coupled with the insane upward price spiral of high end
audio equipment (there are now speakers and amplifiers that cost more
than a top of the line Mercedes Benz) high end audio will very shortly
be relegated to the dust bin of history.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Archimago
2016-02-18 00:51:36 UTC
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Post by ralphpnj
Can you say "bluetooth"?
Stand alone bluetooth speakers paired to smartphones which are in turn
streaming mp3 quality audio is way many people under 30 are currently
experiencing music listening and that "many" will soon become "most".
Between the above plus the constant stream of beliefs that run counter
to science all coupled with the insane upward price spiral of high end
audio equipment (there are now speakers and amplifiers that cost more
than a top of the line Mercedes Benz) high end audio will very shortly
be relegated to the dust bin of history.
Many good points here guys. However I think there will always be a
segment who will gravitate towards high quality sound. At least in
English, I hope we get away from "audiophile" as the pejorative term for
the cazed obsessionality and back to the literal meaning of "high
fidelity" as something worthy of achieving. We can have "high fidelity"
in a stereo system, home theater, a computer sound set-up, streaming,
etc... -But the word "audiophile" can be sacrificed on the alter to
describe the cultist heads of the audio press and their acolytes.- That
segment IMO is already on track to extinction.

IMO, this hobby can regain respectability again with serious hobbyists
who want good hardware and knowing what they want ('\"high fidelity\" as
\"technical accuracy\" as I recently wrote'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2016/02/musings-on-high-fidelity-audiophilia.html)).
Approach it in from the perspective of science rather than voodoo and I
suspect many young people will come back. They will ask questions and
explore the hardware more because they will realize that there's no need
to be members of the "Church of Audiophilia" or endure the snobbish
attitudes we often see.

I'm approaching my mid-40's now and I can say that young folks I've met
do get impressed with the sound of a nice system. They have come and ask
about what to buy and are appreciative that I tell them to get Monoprice
12G speaker cables rather than something wasteful. They can hear the
difference a well mastered version of Rolling Stones sounds versus
compressed remasters. Heck, I was even talking to a vinylphile today who
agreed with me that he buys vinyl NOT for sound quality but for the
"look and feel" and didn't think people like Michael Fremer represent
the viewpoint for him or his friends. (We then proceeded to a lovely
discussion about classic rock and where I pick up my used vinyl in
town...)

No worries... It'll be just grand! :-)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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ralphpnj
2016-02-18 13:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
Many good points here guys. However I think there will always be a
segment who will gravitate towards high quality sound. At least in
English, I hope we get away from "audiophile" as the pejorative term for
the cazed obsessionality and back to the literal meaning of "high
fidelity" as something worthy of achieving. We can have "high fidelity"
in a stereo system, home theater, a computer sound set-up, streaming,
etc... -But the word "audiophile" can be sacrificed on the alter to
describe the cultist heads of the audio press and their acolytes.- That
segment IMO is already on track to extinction.
IMO, this hobby can regain respectability again with serious hobbyists
who want good hardware and knowing what they want ('\"high fidelity\" as
\"technical accuracy\" as I recently wrote'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2016/02/musings-on-high-fidelity-audiophilia.html)).
Approach it in from the perspective of science rather than voodoo and I
suspect many young people will come back. They will ask questions and
explore the hardware more because they will realize that there's no need
to be members of the "Church of Audiophilia" or endure the snobbish
attitudes we often see.
I'm approaching my mid-40's now and I can say that young folks I've met
do get impressed with the sound of a nice system. They have come and ask
about what to buy and are appreciative that I tell them to get Monoprice
12G speaker cables rather than something wasteful. They can hear the
difference a well mastered version of Rolling Stones sounds versus
compressed remasters. Heck, I was even talking to a vinylphile today who
agreed with me that he buys vinyl NOT for sound quality but for the
"look and feel" and didn't think people like Michael Fremer represent
the viewpoint for him or his friends. (We then proceeded to a lovely
discussion about classic rock and where I pick up my used vinyl in
town...)
No worries... It'll be just grand! :-)
Thanks Archimago for yet another outstanding post!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Mnyb
2016-02-20 05:27:33 UTC
Permalink
We may soon be in for the total reboot of the hobby we need . The
traditional outlet for audiophilia has always been the local hifi shop ,
where you can do sighted listenings to expensive cables outrageously
priced tube amps etc and bring the stuff home ?

They are currently mostly part of the problem . Wonder why they don't
figure what thier dwindling sales comes from ...

there are not many well sorted hifi stores left anymore where I live .

Hopefully someone realises that the traditional hifi shop scare away
most off the silent majority and open another kind of hifi shop without
the voodoo just because it makes a better business :)

Historically i think this hobby was in good shape a bit into the 70's
with mostly normal audio engineering going on and the consumer could buy
hifi handbooks , just like you can get books of this years car models .
Heck they even tried to apply some standarda to the scene ( DiN
something , it failed for other reasons ) I think that was the peak .

It was a household luxury you could indulge yourself into without being
regarded as a nutcase . It costed a bit more than a normal cr*p "stereo"
but not totally silly money it was affordable for for middle class
people and with the music scene exploding in those times probably a
perfect compliment .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Archimago
2016-02-22 04:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mnyb
We may soon be in for the total reboot of the hobby we need . The
traditional outlet for audiophilia has always been the local hifi shop ,
where you can do sighted listenings to expensive cables outrageously
priced tube amps etc and bring the stuff home ?
They are currently mostly part of the problem . Wonder why they don't
figure what thier dwindling sales comes from ...
there are not many well sorted hifi stores left anymore where I live .
Hopefully someone realises that the traditional hifi shop scare away
most off the silent majority and open another kind of hifi shop without
the voodoo just because it makes a better business :)
Historically i think this hobby was in good shape a bit into the 70's
with mostly normal audio engineering going on and the consumer could buy
hifi handbooks , just like you can get books of this years car models .
Heck they even tried to apply some standarda to the scene ( DiN
something , it failed for other reasons ) I think that was the peak .
It was a household luxury you could indulge yourself into without being
regarded as a nutcase . It costed a bit more than a normal cr*p "stereo"
but not totally silly money it was affordable for for middle class
people and with the music scene exploding in those times probably a
perfect compliment .
Who know Mnyb, maybe it's just going to be a slow burn...

The majority have found excellent sounding cell phones and iPads for
personal listening - just need better headphones than Beats. The family
room has a decent receiver and for the folks who want better sound,
they'll be looking for better speakers for a more social experience if
the soundbar isn't good enough.

As the current "audiophile" magazines and spiritualist audiophiles
dwindle over time, the bizarre industry that catered to them will
dissipate. And all the while "Rage, rage against the dying of the
light."

I think there will still be a good number of folks who just love the
high-fidelity experience and want to own hardware capable of it.
Hopefully this group just stays sane :-).



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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ralphpnj
2016-02-22 20:12:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
Who know Mnyb, maybe it's just going to be a slow burn...
The majority have found excellent sounding cell phones and iPads for
personal listening - just need better headphones than Beats. The family
room has a decent receiver and for the folks who want better sound,
they'll be looking for better speakers for a more social experience if
the soundbar isn't good enough.
As the current "audiophile" magazines and spiritualist audiophiles
dwindle over time, the bizarre industry that catered to them will
dissipate. And all the while "Rage, rage against the dying of the
light."
I think there will still be a good number of folks who just love the
high-fidelity experience and want to own hardware capable of it.
Hopefully this group just stays sane :-).
Just as there will always be a demand for hand built wristwatches in
spite of cheaper and more accurate electronic watches and a demand of
film based SLR cameras in spite of cheaper digital SLR cameras, there
will always be a demand of fancy, hand built boutique audio equipment.

High end audio equipment is now in the luxury goods camp and as such the
price versus performance ratio no longer has any relevance. Trying to
get wealthy audiophiles to understand that an inexpensive laptop
computer feeding digital audio files from a properly ripped CD to a good
USB DAC will sound as good as any megabuck CD player is just a waste of
time. The same thing applies to a good solid state power amp versus a
hand built, underpowered tube amp. Or a full range speaker coupled with
a good DSP unit versus a megabuck speaker/amp/preamp combo. Luxury goods
do not need to measure well or have fancy bells and whistles since their
"worth" lies elsewhere.

The market for high end audio will just become more and more expensive
and exclusive but it will never completely die. The number of brands and
dealers will continue to dwindle until there are only a select handful
left and the wealthy individuals who can afford these luxury goods will
know where to obtain these status symbols, most likely because there
will always be a few magazines and web sites devoted to the luxury
aspect of high end audio. This is probably why so much what passes for
equipment reviews in the high end audio magazines is becoming more about
solid aluminum faceplates, fit and finish and listening "impressions"
than about good value and measured performance.

The good thing is that due to robust nature of digital audio (robust
with respect to digital audio being less dependent on the storage medium
and transmission method) top quality playback equipment with very good
fidelity will be available for mere fraction of the cost of their high
end brethren.

The previous statement is borne out whenever one of the high end audio
magazines goes slumming and actually reports on or reviews some less
expensive equipment only to be shocked to find out that the equipment
sounds pretty damn good, nowadays this happens on a very regular basis.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Julf
2016-02-22 20:51:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
Just as there will always be a demand for hand built wristwatches in
spite of cheaper and more accurate electronic watches and a demand of
film based SLR cameras in spite of cheaper digital SLR cameras, there
will always be a demand of fancy, hand built boutique audio equipment.
Reminds me of the spoof ad I just saw somewhere - "You never actually
own an Apple Watch. You merely look after it until the next update."



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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ralphpnj
2016-02-22 21:28:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julf
Reminds me of the spoof ad I just saw somewhere - "You never actually
own an Apple Watch. You merely look after it until the next update."
A hand built wristwatch would bean improvement over an Apple Watch in
each and every possible way imaginable. Sometimes advanced technology
just isn't the answer.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Mnyb
2016-02-23 03:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Or a cheap Casio :) digital watch , if you actually use a wristwatch for
time keeping .

The modern function of a wristwatch is actually jewelry , I usually
don't notice when mine runs out of battery :D
I have a nice guess , but serusily consider something more fancy , for
the look and feel . Or actually a bunch more fashion wristwatches so I
can pick and choose .

My phone tells the time I'm sounded by computers at the work and at home
that tells the time , my car does it , my TV reciever and microwave etc
And four squeezeboxes !



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Mnyb
2016-02-23 03:39:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
Who know Mnyb, maybe it's just going to be a slow burn...
The majority have found excellent sounding cell phones and iPads for
personal listening - just need better headphones than Beats. The family
room has a decent receiver and for the folks who want better sound,
they'll be looking for better speakers for a more social experience if
the soundbar isn't good enough.
As the current "audiophile" magazines and spiritualist audiophiles
dwindle over time, the bizarre industry that catered to them will
dissipate. And all the while "Rage, rage against the dying of the
light."
I think there will still be a good number of folks who just love the
high-fidelity experience and want to own hardware capable of it.
Hopefully this group just stays sane :-).
Yes small signal and digital signal parity is reached today . Or should
be , surprisingly enough there mistakes in many products as the general
customer don't care or are not aware . This is why thorough third party
measurements is essential for component reviews and to call out the
voodoo designed components for what they are

But there are a lot of considerations anyway to choose the rigth product
, functionality features interoperability and quality .....

The amps I hope will be a commodity inside active speakers . The benefit
of an active filter is so great that any and all differences between
decent power amps is irrelevant , even more interesting much of the hi
tech in expensive drivers is due the natural consequences of passive
filter design they get to complex so many resign to very shallow 6dB
first order or 12dB or something , the driver is used over a to wide
bandwith especially tweeters



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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RonM
2016-02-23 17:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Just speaking to the first post in this thread, Non Sequitur is the
number one delight in the comic strip world today, as far as I'm
concerned. Whimsical and amusing, and also tuned into the absurdities
of the modern world.

It's a big part of my continuing engagement with newspapers!

R.



LMS on a dedicated server (FitPC3)
Transporter (Ethernet) - main listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Touch (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space
Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (WiFi) - home office
Control - Squeeze Control (Android mobile), 2 Controllers (seldom used),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2)
Touch x 1 - spare
UE Radio x 1 - spare
Boom x 1 - spare
Controller x 1 - Spare
Duet Receiver (backup)
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