[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] This time, it WAS the (USB) cable

[rgro]

Yeah, I know what you're all thinking already, but.....

More than a year ago I noted that there was a fairly obvious right
speaker dominance---I even measured a 2 -3 db spl difference. The short
story is that after checking all of the interconnects, speaker cables,
removing and replugging-in everything, cleaning contacts, etc. I figured
it must be room issues, and physically repositioned the speakers to pull
the center image back to the left. This meant unevening the r/h speaker
distance from my listening position both right/left and front/back. Not
an optimal solution, I felt, but it seemed to compensate enough.

On an unrelated matter, I just had occasion to swap the USB cable (a
standard A/B cable) running from my server to my dac. I don't recall
where the original USB cable came from...something inexpensive and off
the shelf. While I suspect the brand is probably not relevant, the new
USB is a relatively modestly priced ($40) cable from a company called
Supra. After swapping the cable, I sat down to listen and make sure
that the music was still going to play and immediately noticed that the
center image was now pulled about 4 feet to the left! Huh....that's
strange, thought I, so I put the old cable back and image was back to
centered. Needless to say I reinstalled the Supra cable and went
through the process of repositioning my speakers to be equidistant from
my listening position, the image was perfectly centered, and then
remeasured the SPL levels...now equal from each speaker.

Clearly the old USB cable was defective in some way....I have no idea
what defect may have caused this particular problem but, as nothing else
had changed in my system the obvious culprit was the USB cable. And,
no, I'm not going to make any gratuitous claims about how sound quality
has vastly improved, but at least the mystery of why the right speaker
was louder is solved.



Rg

System information
------------------------
Main: Vortexbox/Squeezelite > USB> Benchmark DAC2 D > LFD LE IV
Signature amp > Revel Performa F208 speakers.

Home Theatre: Touch (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic
5.1, Touch FW 7.8.0-r16754.

LMS 7.9.0 - 0.71.20150313git1426153261 on a 1TB Micro Vortexbox
Appliance, V 2.3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[arnyk]

rgro wrote:
> Yeah, I know what you're all thinking already, but.....
>
> More than a year ago I noted that there was a fairly obvious right
> speaker dominance---I even measured a 2 -3 db spl difference. The short
> story is that after checking all of the interconnects, speaker cables,
> removing and replugging-in everything, cleaning contacts, etc. I figured
> it must be room issues, and physically repositioned the speakers to pull
> the center image back to the left. This meant unevening the r/h speaker
> distance from my listening position both right/left and front/back. Not
> an optimal solution, I felt, but it seemed to compensate enough.
>
> On an unrelated matter, I just had occasion to swap the USB cable (a
> standard A/B cable) running from my server to my dac. I don't recall
> where the original USB cable came from...something inexpensive and off
> the shelf. While I suspect the brand is probably not relevant, the new
> USB is a relatively modestly priced ($40) cable from a company called
> Supra. After swapping the cable, I sat down to listen and make sure
> that the music was still going to play and immediately noticed that the
> center image was now pulled about 4 feet to the left! Huh....that's
> strange, thought I, so I put the old cable back and image was back to
> centered. Needless to say I reinstalled the Supra cable and went
> through the process of repositioning my speakers to be equidistant from
> my listening position, the image was perfectly centered, and then
> remeasured the SPL levels...now equal from each speaker.
>
> Clearly the old USB cable was defective in some way....I have no idea
> what defect may have caused this particular problem but, as nothing else
> had changed in my system the obvious culprit was the USB cable. And,
> no, I'm not going to make any gratuitous claims about how sound quality
> has vastly improved, but at least the mystery of why the right speaker
> was louder is solved.

Two words: Sighted Evaluation.

The entire bidirectional network audio and other signals on a USB cable
are passing through the same 2 sets electrically identical sets of
conductors and contacts. A break or attenuation anyplace along it will
affect both channels identically, including eliminating their existence
if the fault is bad enough.

Two other words: Zero possibility.

This is in fact good evidence for the lack of reliability of sighted
evlauations.


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[Julf]

To be fair, rgro did write that there was a *measured* difference in
channel balance - but we don't know if something else has changed since.
I agree that it is somewhat hard to imagine a mechanism that would
affect the gain of only one channel - unless the USB cable was doing
some pretty smart calculations on the data...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[arnyk]

Julf wrote:
> To be fair, rgro did write that there was a *measured* difference in
> channel balance - but we don't know if something else has changed since.
> I agree that it is somewhat hard to imagine a mechanism that would
> affect the gain of only one channel - unless the USB cable was doing
> some pretty smart calculations on the data...

The only difference that a USB cable can possibly make would be
something gross, like both channels not working.


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[Julf]

arnyk wrote:
> The only difference that a USB cable can possibly make would be
> something gross, like both channels not working.

Ah, that is because you haven't yet experiences my $4999 audiophile USB
cable utilizing advanced DSP technology... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

It's very hard to imagine a difference that could make a channel
imbalance in the USB interface since to put it simple the data does not
travel as discrete channels .

There must be an unknown factor here , did the channel imbalance really
go away . and was it measured at the exact same volume setting both
before and after ?

The benchmark DAC is normal engineering . The LFD amp is some piece of
Woo engineering , channel imbalance that varies with volume is not
unthinkable , it can btw happen with any amp using potentiometers at
some volume setting.

Something is not controlled here we can but speculate what that is ,



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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[Man in a van]

Mnyb wrote:
> It's very hard to imagine a difference that could make a channel
> imbalance in the USB interface since to put it simple the data does not
> travel as discrete channels .
>
> There must be an unknown factor here , did the channel imbalance really
> go away . and was it measured at the exact same volume setting both
> before and after ?
>
> The benchmark DAC is normal engineering . The LFD amp is some piece of
> Woo engineering
> ,_-*_channel_imbalance_that_varies_with_volume_is_not_unthinkable*-_ ,
> it can btw happen with any amp using potentiometers at some volume
> setting.
>
> Something is not controlled here we can but speculate what that is ,



I have a LFD Silver Sig integrated amp, I don't use it very much.

When I did use it I thought the balance was over to the left.

Realised that all the gain was in the first small arc of travel of the
volume pot (6/8 o'clock).

Got some 14dB attenuators and was able to use more of the volume sweep
at reasonable levels, image was more central.

Decided not to use 20dB attenuators.

E-mailed Dr. Bews, never got a reply.

Nice Amp :p


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[Archimago]

rgro:
That's just weird. You really should find out more around what's
happening and post your findings.

Don't just throw those USB cables away or in the attic. Could be
educational!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[rgro]

Archimago wrote:
> rgro:
> That's just weird. You really should find out more around what's
> happening and post your findings.
>
> Don't just throw those USB cables away or in the attic. Could be
> educational!

I agree! The first thing I thought when I heard the differences was to
box that cable up and send it to you to see if you could tease out any
interesting technical data from it.

I do realize that, in some cases, these technical issues are
multi-dimensional even though , at first, the proximal cause/effect
seems blatantly obvious. I'm sure I'm not alone in having solved a
problem where the initial appearances and solutions were not at all what
ultimately wind up solving the issue. But, I'm really at a loss to
explain this particular problem when the only variable seems to be the
cable. Perhaps some issue at the connection/contact points at one end
or the other?????



Rg

System information
------------------------
Main: Vortexbox/Squeezelite > USB> Benchmark DAC2 D > LFD LE IV
Signature amp > Revel Performa F208 speakers.

Home Theatre: Touch (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic
5.1, Touch FW 7.8.0-r16754.

LMS 7.9.0 - 0.71.20150313git1426153261 on a 1TB Micro Vortexbox
Appliance, V 2.3.
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[Wombat]

Please not another theory about how USB cables change stereo imaging i
will read as fact in some other place the next day. I think a simple
rmaa with both USB cables you have on the outs of the DAC will clear
things up or ship the cable to Archimago.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[Greg Erskine]

rgro wrote:
> I agree! The first thing I thought when I heard the differences was to
> box that cable up and send it to you to see if you could tease out any
> interesting technical data from it.
>
> I do realize that, in some cases, these technical issues are
> multi-dimensional even though , at first, the proximal cause/effect
> seems blatantly obvious. I'm sure I'm not alone in having solved a
> problem where the initial appearances and solutions were not at all what
> ultimately wind up solving the issue. But, I'm really at a loss to
> explain this particular problem when the only variable seems to be the
> cable. Perhaps some issue at the connection/contact points at one end
> or the other? Maybe some strangely unique incompatibility between the
> old cable and either the dac or the server??

Hi rgro,

Interesting! If you have time I'd be interested in the following:

1. First step I'd do is put the faulty USB cable back in and confirm the
original problem. Do this a couple of times.
2. Then get someone else to do the USB cable swapping. You do the
listening only.
3. Next try the USB cable on a completely independent system. This will
confirm if it a problem with the cable or your system.

Only do this if you are bored, its probably a better use of your time to
listen to your music. :D

regards
Greg


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[Archimago]

Greg Erskine wrote:
> Hi rgro,
>
> Interesting! If you have time I'd be interested in the following:
>
> 1. First step I'd do is put the faulty USB cable back in and confirm the
> original problem. Do this a couple of times.
> 2. Then get someone else to do the USB cable swapping. You do the
> listening only.
> 3. Next try the USB cable on a completely independent system. This will
> confirm if it a problem with the cable or your system.
>
> Only do this if you are bored, its probably a better use of your time to
> listen to your music. :D
>
> regards
> Greg

Some good suggestions.

Here's another simple suggestion for a test if you have; should not take
more than 30 minutes and really easy:
- Create some white noise say at -12dB right channel, and another -12dB
left channel; lets say 30 seconds each. Use Audacity for free... You
might have similar test tones on test CD's; just be clear that they're
same amplitude. Do not use real music to do this because it's common to
have recordings slightly shifted to one side or another. Put the test
tones on Vortexbox and make them available to play.

- Start with the good Supra cable which I presume is plugged in. Play
the test tones; not too loud of course. Obviously make sure no channel
balance settings anywhere being used on the Vortexbox/DAC/preamp/amp.
Using your SPL meter, measure each side and write down the dB SPLs from
each speaker. Presumably this will be very close since it's the "good"
cable.

- Switch to the "bad" USB cable. Same procedure, same volume settings on
DAC/preamp/amp... Measure the right vs. left test tone.

What kind of numbers are you seeing?

Like Arny showed in the picture, this is USB; S for Serial with -only a
single pair of data wires-. There is no actual physical way to
discriminate the right/left side stereo data. *Everything flows through
that +/- pair.*

If you can confirm the channel imbalance measurements with just the
change in USB cable, this would be interesting to investigate.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Mnyb]

Yeas repeating the experiment is a good starting point .

Suggest that even if you have a dot marking the volume , simply do not
touch anything but the cables when swapping the cables .

Preferably ABX it with the help of a friend *including doing the spl
measurment unknowing which cable that's there* .

Yes I think arny has a piont even seemingly large and "obvious"
differences can be perceptional bias otherwise it would not be
perceptional bias :) that's how it works .

Except that After you done as archimago suggested measured with a test
tone . You swap L/R out of the DAC to the amp and reapet . Why ?

Here's what I'm after as USB is an serial interface with all the data
mixed in one signal it's simply not plausible that data can randomly be
dropped in such way that the only effect is slightly lower volume , the
probability is truly astronomical .

So maybe it's a weird electrical issue some ground plane thing or
whatnot that for example affects your amp ? To be honest this is also a
low probability thing . But all other explanations are more plausible
tha the that USB interface dropped data in such manner that volume was
lower in one channel .

I think you find a procedural error when you repeat or if you are
thorough and ABX it disappears . Or simply both cables works fine now
and we are all left to wonder what went wrong in the first place .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Mnyb]

Ohh forgot some things.

Try with a second listeners .

Extra ,while at the subject of swapping l7R analog cables do this ABX
style too so that the channel of the channel imbalance is also random.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[rgro]

After moving the dac and server out into a better lit part of the
shelf, back in the dark recesses of the back panel of the server I noted
that and hadn't see that there were two USB outs, one right above the
other. It appears that one of them is flaky. The other one sounds
exactly the same with both cables. I, no doubt, without visually
checking, had plugged the new cable into the USB port that I'd not been
using with the old cable.

As I stated before, sometimes (often, perhaps?) the seemingly proximal
cause/effect aren't ultimately what one concludes. I appreciate all the
suggestions and the (mostly) constructive comments. Arny's explanation
of the cable construction was especially helpful in turning my attention
elsewhere. To those who prefer to jump all over somebody in the process
of genuinely attempting to learn and figure out some things for
themselves, please give 'em a break once in a while. Not everybody's
full of foo or whatever buzzword comes to the fore. Sometimes it takes
a bit of head-scratching and a helping hand to figure stuff out.



Rg

System information
------------------------
Main: Vortexbox/Squeezelite > USB> Benchmark DAC2 D > LFD LE IV
Signature amp > Revel Performa F208 speakers.

Home Theatre: Touch (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic
5.1, Touch FW 7.8.0-r16754.

LMS 7.9.0 - 0.71.20150313git1426153261 on a 1TB Micro Vortexbox
Appliance, V 2.3.
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[Mnyb]

rgro wrote:
> After moving the dac and server out into a better lit part of the
> shelf, back in the dark recesses of the back panel of the server I noted
> that and hadn't see that there were two USB outs, one right above the
> other. It appears that one of them is flaky. The other one sounds
> exactly the same with both cables. I, no doubt, without visually
> checking, had plugged the new cable into the USB port that I'd not been
> using with the old cable.
>
> As I stated before, sometimes (often, perhaps?) the seemingly proximal
> cause/effect aren't ultimately what one concludes. I appreciate all the
> suggestions and the (mostly) constructive comments. Arny's explanation
> of the cable construction was especially helpful in turning my attention
> elsewhere. To those who prefer to jump all over somebody in the process
> of genuinely attempting to learn and figure out some things for
> themselves, please give 'em a break once in a while. Not everybody's
> full of foo or whatever buzzword comes to the fore. Sometimes it takes
> a bit of head-scratching and a helping hand to figure stuff out.

This makes a lot of sense then software may come into it to some setting
could be off for that audio device .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[DJanGo]

Well Cables do make differences even in a binary enviroment but....

Mostly its the "cheaper" cable that works better. I never heard that a
better cable will make things that out of the spectrum from any of the
connected devices.
Its like filling your ordinary lawnmover with racing gasoline and think
that the grass is greener than green after that.

eg. running a Raspberry with a STP Cable can suck and you can hear some
background noises - since the Rasberry cant handle 1000 M/bit the
"better" cable doesnt make any sense and the shield (ground) makes the
noise.

What will us this story tell?
Not always the best is the best mostly the best for this device is the
best.



Gruss

Jan
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[arnyk]

DJanGo wrote:
> Well Cables do make differences even in a binary enviroment but....
>
> Mostly its the "cheaper" cable that works better. I never heard that a
> better cable will make things that out of the spectrum from any of the
> connected devices.
> Its like filling your ordinary lawnmover with racing gasoline and think
> that the grass is greener than green after that.
>
> eg. running a Raspberry with a STP Cable can suck and you can hear some
> background noises - since the Rasberry cant handle 1000 M/bit the
> "better" cable doesnt make any sense and the shield (ground) makes the
> noise.
>
> What will us this story tell?
> Not always the best is the best mostly the best for this device is the
> best.

Looking at all of the hacks and work-arounds related to USB support on
the Rasberry PI, there is a case to be made for excluding user
experiences with it on the grounds that it is too close to and probably
too far over the edges of good engineering practice to be relevant to
the general world of USB.

There is an exceedingly low possibility that audibly different changes
will be made to the channels being transported by a time-division
multiplexed multichannel signal by variations in a typically simple
transport layer (USB PHY). If someone ever makes a cable with a DSP
bulge, then that would a different thing.


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[Julf]

rgro wrote:
> To those who prefer to jump all over somebody in the process of
> genuinely attempting to learn and figure out some things for themselves,
> please give 'em a break once in a while.

There was a great posting from "I fucking hate pseudoscience" today that
I think is very relevant:

> Those that have never participated in scientific research probably don't
> realize the intense scrutiny and sometimes overtly hostile
> confrontations that occur between scientists clamoring to outdo one
> another. The criticism leveled at psuedoscientists and believers of
> weird is often framed in such a way as to equate the criticism with
> arrogance and being unduly harsh, when in fact it is business as usual.
> If the data contains any possible points of contention most scientists
> feel duty-bound to draw attention to them. I think most lay people would
> be amazed at what it takes to defend a dissertation. A thick skin must
> be acquired to be a research scientist. If one has a pet theory or idea
> that is likely to be overtly criticized, whether you are a scientist or
> just a regular Joe that believes something that is not consistent with
> the laws of nature as we know them, one should be prepared to vigorously
> defend the idea with evidence and sound reasoning and not take critiques
> personally. Although it may spare hurt feelings, removing criticism from
> science removes its ability to separate accuracy from error.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Gandhi]

Julf wrote:
> There was a great posting from "I fucking hate pseudoscience" today that
> I think is very relevant

That's a very interesting observation. The tone that me and my collegues
use at work is simply not possible in social circumstances (if you value
your cranial bonestructure). I always attributed it to us thinking more
in terms of black'n'white than in graytones, but this is a more
plausible explanation (but perhaps not the only one). It probably also
explains some of the heat exchange on this forum.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
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[rgro]

Julf wrote:
> There was a great posting from "I fucking hate pseudoscience" today that
> I think is very relevant:

Point taken, but to state the obvious, many on these forums are not, nor
have ever been, part of the scientific community. Therefore, the
opportunity to develop the "thick skin" and respond appropriately to
what, to you, is normal and genuine scientific skepticism or inquiry has
not, shall we say, been fully developed. Trying to immediately
strong-arm a non-scientist/non-academic into reacting and thinking as
one is more a failing of the educator as opposed to the "educatee".

Thus, further inquiry and learning is often discouraged by the
perception of being attacked which is, in a forum which is clearly meant
to be a non-academic/non-scientific environment (which you must admit,
this surely is), a deterrent to some who might otherwise seek to
continue seeking further testing/information gathering.

Getting defensive against a perceived attack is a perfectly human
response and rather than immediately labeling people as intellectually
lazy, shills, audiophools, placebophiles, ad infinitum, they may be just
inexperienced. A gentler touch and a patient explanation or two would
do far more to encourage those, so inclined, to keep exploring rather
than to raise the drawbridges and retreat behind the castle walls.
Then, rather than immediately polarize and close a mind, you've
encouraged a more rational approach, educated a person or two and
actually gone a ways to, as you, Arny, and others here have said is your
wish, bring a few souls more into the science side of things.



Rg

System information
------------------------
Main: Vortexbox/Squeezelite > USB> Benchmark DAC2 D > LFD LE IV
Signature amp > Revel Performa F208 speakers.

Home Theatre: Touch (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic
5.1, Touch FW 7.8.0-r16754.

LMS 7.9.0 - 0.71.20150313git1426153261 on a 1TB Micro Vortexbox
Appliance, V 2.3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

rgro wrote:
> Thus, further inquiry and learning is often discouraged by the
> perception of being attacked which is, in a forum which is clearly meant
> to be a non-academic/non-scientific environment (which you must admit,
> this surely is), a deterrent to some who might otherwise seek to
> continue seeking further testing/information gathering.

Point taken, and I agree, but again it works both ways. I imagine the
reactions to your message that started this thread would have been far
more positive if you had titled the thread "Anyone able to figure out
what is going on here?" instead of "This time, it WAS the (USB) cable".



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[rgro]

Julf wrote:
> Point taken, and I agree, but again it works both ways. I imagine the
> reactions to your message that started this thread would have been far
> more positive if you had titled the thread "Anyone able to figure out
> what is going on here?" instead of "This time, it WAS the (USB) cable".

It does, indeed, work both ways. There is polarized thinking on both
sides of these and many other issues of the day. However, it is my
belief that if you (speaking generally, not you specifically) either
are, or are calling oneself an educator, when questions come up, it's
your duty (albeit a long and frustrating duty as any educator will
admit) to educate, not fly at people with immediate confrontational
tactics. That just encourages the very behaviors that you think you're
trying to discourage. I think in this particular case, Archimago, Mynb
and, to a lesser extent Arny, got it pretty much right.

And, yes, in hindsight I would've picked a different title.....but it
seemed so clear at the time ;>).



Rg

System information
------------------------
Main: Vortexbox/Squeezelite > USB> Benchmark DAC2 D > LFD LE IV
Signature amp > Revel Performa F208 speakers.

Home Theatre: Touch (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic
5.1, Touch FW 7.8.0-r16754.

LMS 7.9.0 - 0.71.20150313git1426153261 on a 1TB Micro Vortexbox
Appliance, V 2.3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

rgro wrote:
> IHowever, it is my belief that if you (speaking generally, not you
> specifically) either are, or are calling oneself an educator, when
> questions come up, it's your duty (albeit a long and frustrating duty as
> any educator will admit) to educate, not fly at people with immediate
> confrontational tactics. That just discourages the very behaviors that
> you want to encourage. I think in this particular case, Archimago,
> Mynb and, to a lesser extent Arny, got it pretty much right.

Thinking about that it reminded me once again of how easy it is to
forget that things you take for granted aren't always understood by
everybody. After working with digital audio connections for close to 30
years, it is too easy to assume that everybody knows and understands the
principles of how digital waveform data is represented in a serial
digital connection, and what it would take to change the amplitude of
one channel without causing other corruption.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[jkeny]

I'm still interested in why a different USB port can possibly cause what
rgro is reporting.
Have you done a test to confirm that your perception of channel
imbalance (now between different USB ports rather than different USB
cables) holds up?
Any theories?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[arnyk]

jkeny wrote:
> I'm still interested in why a different USB port can possibly cause what
> rgro is reporting.
>
it is theoretically impossible.

But you claimed something similar when you claimed that the two channels
on a typical I2S or SP/DIF link can have significantly different amounts
of jitter.

>
> Have you done a test to confirm that your perception of channel
> imbalance (now between different USB ports rather than different USB
> cables) holds up?
> Any theories?

Fog of war.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[arnyk]

Julf wrote:
> Thinking about that it reminded me once again of how easy it is to
> forget that things you take for granted aren't always understood by
> everybody. After working with digital audio connections for close to 30
> years, it is too easy to assume that everybody knows and understands the
> principles of how digital waveform data is represented in a serial
> digital connection, and what it would take to change the amplitude of
> one channel without causing other corruption.

That's got to be true, and I've tried to overcome it, with very little
success.

One of the problems is the pressure to not admit a fault in public, and
of course the other problem is not perceiving the fault.

Case in point was a claim that the two channels on an I2S or SP/DIF link
could have significantly different amounts of jitter.

How improbable this is probably is most apparent to people who have had
to unpack the two channels, change one, and pack them back together.

It would otherwise seem easy, I guess.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mnyb]

rgro wrote:
> It does, indeed, work both ways. There is polarized thinking on both
> sides of these and many other issues of the day. However, it is my
> belief that if you (speaking generally, not you specifically) either
> are, or are calling oneself an educator, when questions come up, it's
> your duty (albeit a long and frustrating duty as any educator will
> admit) to educate, not fly at people with immediate confrontational
> tactics. That just discourages the very behaviors that you want to
> encourage. I think in this particular case, Archimago, Mynb and, to a
> lesser extent Arny, got it pretty much right.
>
> And, yes, in hindsight I would've picked a different title.....but it
> seemed so clear at the time ;>).

On polarised thinking yes some things I say can come out that way ,but
it's for a reason . I do come from a consensus culture ( I'm Swedish )
but sometimes you can't compromise further .

If you think the earth is flat and I think it's round , the political
way of doing it is to agree it's slightly convex ? But someone is
actually wrong :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mnyb]

Mnyb wrote:
> On polarised thinking yes some things I say can come out that way ,but
> it's for a reason . I do come from a consensus culture ( I'm Swedish )
> but sometimes you can't compromise further .
>
> If you think the earth is flat and I think it's round , the political
> way of doing it is to agree it's slightly convex ? But someone is
> actually wrong :)

What I mean is that sometimes the middle ground does not exist .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103818

[Julf]

Mnyb wrote:
> What I mean is that sometimes the middle ground does not exist .

You mean 2 + 2 isn' t 4.5?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[jkeny]

If only the so-called scientific minded would just show some semblance
of inquisitiveness, it would be a refreshing break from the usual
cynicism of everything that is usually demonstrated by those who are
afraid of expressing an interest in some audio aspect that might be of
interest. Sure, there are a fair few audiophile reports that are
mistaken or wildly hyperbolic but that doesn't men that you need to
close your mind to all new possibilities. Ask some questions before
summarily dismissing the report.

So, I ask again of rgro - something that seems to have been overlooked -
is there a sonic difference between the two USB ports that you have
used?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ralphpnj]

jkeny wrote:
> If only the so-called scientific minded would just show some semblance
> of inquisitiveness, it would be a refreshing break from the usual
> cynicism of everything that is usually demonstrated by those who are
> afraid of expressing an interest in some audio aspect that might be of
> interest. Sure, there are a fair few audiophile reports that are
> mistaken or wildly hyperbolic but that doesn't men that you need to
> close your mind to all new possibilities. Ask some questions before
> summarily dismissing the report.
>
> So, I ask again of rgro - something that seems to have been overlooked -
> is there a sonic difference between the two USB ports that you have
> used?

Here's something I learned from a very wise thermodynamics professor
many years ago - when someone tries to sell you a perpetual motion
machine the first thing you need to do is an energy balance of the
machine and once you do the energy balance you will quickly discover
that the machine is nothing more than a con. This is ALWAYS true because
any and all perpetual motion machines violate one or more of the three
basic laws of thermodynamics. Notice that I used the word "law" since
the three basic rules of thermodynamics are not rules or theories or
axioms but LAWS and LAWS cannot be broken or even bent.

Now a lot of the claims within the high end audio world are pretty much
the equivalent of breaking physical LAWS. For example if a piece of
music has a dynamic range of 65db then a bit depth of 16 is more than
enough and increasing the bit depth to 24 has absolutely no effect on
the 65db dynamic range of the piece music. Why? Because that is how
things work. Of course you will tell me that I have closed mind, however
I think that I have an open mind which happens to have a good filtering
system, a system that can tell me when what is being proposed is within
the realm of possibilities or outside that realm. If it is outside the
realm of possibilities, i.e. does not adhere to physical laws or
violates those laws, then I dismiss it for BS.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[jkeny]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Here's something I learned from a very wise thermodynamics professor
> many years ago - when someone tries to sell you a perpetual motion
> machine the first thing you need to do is an energy balance of the
> machine and once you do the energy balance you will quickly discover
> that the machine is nothing more than a con. This is ALWAYS true because
> any and all perpetual motion machines violate one or more of the three
> basic laws of thermodynamics. Notice that I used the word "law" since
> the three basic rules of thermodynamics are not rules or theories or
> axioms but LAWS and LAWS cannot be broken or even bent.
>
> Now a lot of the claims within the high end audio world are pretty much
> the equivalent of breaking physical LAWS. For example if a piece of
> music has a dynamic range of 65db then a bit depth of 16 is more than
> enough and increasing the bit depth to 24 has absolutely no effect on
> the 65db dynamic range of the piece music. Why? Because that is how
> things work. Of course you will tell me that I have closed mind, however
> I think that I have an open mind which happens to have a good filtering
> system, a system that can tell me when what is being proposed is within
> the realm of possibilities or outside that realm. If it is outside the
> realm of possibilities, i.e. does not adhere to physical laws or
> violates those laws, then I dismiss it for BS.
Yea, yea, heard it all before & am not impressed. I presume this was
written to defend your so-called objectivist viewpoint which you think
has a scientific foundation. And Arnyk or Julf or Mnyb will be quickly
in on your shirt-tails supporting your viewpoint but FFS do you have to
infiltrate every thread with this BS? Is there no questions that you
might like to ask rgro about his experience before dismissing it as BS?
Is there not an ounce of inquisitiveness in any of you?

You know forums are meant to be places for enthusiasts to share
experiences & possibly learn from one another. It is not meant to be a
trial by jury for every post that is made.

If you really want to close down this section of the forum then write to
the admins. I suspect that this is not your intention but rather to get
your jollies by slagging every post that you know your compatriots will
then pile in to support.

It's a particularly sad vista, really!!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Wombat]

jkeny wrote:
> Yea, yea, heard it all before & am not impressed. I presume this was
> written to defend your so-called objectivist viewpoint which you think
> has a scientific foundation. And Arnyk or Julf or Mnyb will be quickly
> in on your shirt-tails supporting your viewpoint but FFS do you have to
> infiltrate every thread with this BS? Is there no questions that you
> might like to ask rgro about his experience before dismissing it as BS?
> Is there not an ounce of inquisitiveness in any of you?
>
> You know forums are meant to be places for enthusiasts to share
> experiences & possibly learn from one another. It is not meant to be a
> trial by jury for every post that is made.
>
> If you really want to close down this section of the forum then write to
> the admins. I suspect that this is not your intention but rather you
> prefer to get your jollies by slagging every post that you know your
> compatriots will then pile in to support & closing of this section would
> be some fun & self-delusional superiority you would miss
>
> It's a particularly sad vista, really!!
I can't see were exactly you post anything of value for Slimdevices
products even after reading several of your posts. What i see is that in
discussions you are in you get personal to fast imho. This also explains
why "jkeny banned" gives interesting hits in google.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[jkeny]

Wombat wrote:
> I can't see were exactly you post anything of value for Slimdevices
> products even after reading several of your posts. What i see is that in
> discussions you are in you get personal to fast imho. This also explains
> why "jkeny banned" gives interesting hits in google.
I may be guilty of rising to the bait too fast, for sure but I hope that
I'm not the instigator of said personal invective?
I hope that in my past here I have given something back to the SB
community?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

jkeny wrote:
> Yea, yea, heard it all before & am not impressed.

Right back at you!

> You know forums are meant to be places for enthusiasts to share
> experiences & possibly learn from one another. It is not meant to be a
> trial by jury for every post that is made.

If you had any idea of how science works, you would realize that
questioning claims that seem to violate fundamental principles of
physics is one of the most fundamental parts of inquiry and discovery -
but I don't thing inquiry and discovery is what you are about.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[jkeny]

Yea, there you go, again - an attempt to demean & show delusional
superiority!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

jkeny wrote:
> Yea, there you go, again - an attempt to demean & show delusional
> superiority!

JK, either you have a great sense of irony, or none at all - I really
can't tell.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ralphpnj]

jkeny wrote:
> Yea, yea, heard it all before & am not impressed. I presume this was
> written to defend your so-called objectivist viewpoint which you think
> has a scientific foundation. And Arnyk or Julf or Mnyb will be quickly
> in on your shirt-tails supporting your viewpoint but FFS do you have to
> infiltrate every thread with this BS? Is there no questions that you
> might like to ask rgro about his experience before dismissing it as BS?
> Is there not an ounce of inquisitiveness in any of you?
>
> You know forums are meant to be places for enthusiasts to share
> experiences & possibly learn from one another. It is not meant to be a
> trial by jury for every post that is made.
>
> If you really want to close down this section of the forum then write to
> the admins. I suspect that this is not your intention but rather you
> prefer to get your jollies by slagging every post that you know your
> compatriots will then pile in to support & closing of this section would
> be some fun & self-delusional superiority you would miss
>
> It's a particularly sad vista, really!!


We do it all for one very simple reason which is that we are attempting
to keep budding audiophiles from falling down the same rabbit hole that
you did. Oh and to try and save them lots, lots and lots of MONEY!

Now please understand most of my posts and rants are against individual
audiophiles but against what I will call the audiophile establishment -
the magazines, web sites and manufacturer's marketing departments who
throw reason and science under the bus in an effort to make money from
fools. If you would like to write something that would change my point
of view then please explain to me how a full time magazine editor or
writer could possibly afford to own $1000 USB cables, $1000 power cords,
$2000 speaker wire, $1500 interconnects (several sets at least), $15000
DACs, $20000 pre-amps. $30000 power amps and $150000 speakers. Inquiring
minds want to know.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[arnyk]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Please explain to me how a full time magazine editor or writer could
> possibly afford to own $1000 USB cables, $1000 power cords, $2000
> speaker wire, $1500 interconnects (several sets at least), $15000 DACs,
> $20000 pre-amps. $30000 power amps and $150000 speakers. Inquiring minds
> want to know.

I know enough people who have done reviews for audio magazines to have
some idea of how this works, which means that it varies by the
manufacturer and individual reviwer.

(1) Some manufacturers never ask for return of the gear, some do.

(2) Some offer "Accommodation pricing" sometimes for people in the trade
in general, sometimes for certain people.

I am privy to some details of the disposal of the estate of a person who
was a published reviewer for over a decade. His basement was pretty
full, if you catch my drift.

It is as simple at that!


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[ralphpnj]

arnyk wrote:
> I know enough people who have done reviews for audio magazines to have
> some idea of how this works, which means that it varies by the
> manufacturer and individual reviwer.
>
> (1) Some manufacturers never ask for return of the gear, some do.
>
> (2) Some offer "Accommodation pricing" sometimes for people in the trade
> in general, sometimes for certain people.
>
> I am privy to some details of the disposal of the estate of a person who
> was a published reviewer for over a decade. His basement was pretty
> full, if you catch my drift.
>
> It is as simple at that!

I realize that there is nothing above that is illegal in any way but it
does at least hint that the resulting equipment reviews may be somewhat
less than honest.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[arnyk]

ralphpnj wrote:
> I realize that there is nothing above that is illegal in any way but it
> does at least hint that the resulting equipment reviews may be somewhat
> less than honest.

IME there are very few manufacturers who keep on sending equipment for
review to reviewers who don't help them sell gear.


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[ralphpnj]

arnyk wrote:
> IME there are very few manufacturers who keep on sending equipment for
> review to reviewers who don't help them sell gear.

Which is why is almost NO real criticism of any Apple products in the
main stream media. Bad mouth the new iPhone and we won't be sending any
more toys.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ralphpnj]

jkeny wrote:
> Yea, yea, heard it all before & am not impressed. I presume this was
> written to defend your so-called objectivist viewpoint which you think
> has a scientific foundation. And Arnyk or Julf or Mnyb will be quickly
> in on your shirt-tails supporting your viewpoint but FFS do you have to
> infiltrate every thread with this BS? Is there no questions that you
> might like to ask rgro about his experience before dismissing it as BS?
> Is there not an ounce of inquisitiveness in any of you?
>
> You know forums are meant to be places for enthusiasts to share
> experiences & possibly learn from one another. It is not meant to be a
> trial by jury for every post that is made.
>
> If you really want to close down this section of the forum then write to
> the admins. I suspect that this is not your intention but rather you
> prefer to get your jollies by slagging every post that you know your
> compatriots will then pile in to support & closing of this section would
> be some fun & self-delusional superiority you would miss
>
> It's a particularly sad vista, really!!

Note the quote was taken from another thread but is relevant to my
reply.

jh901 wrote:
> Those members are presumably grown men in their 40s or 50s. I struggle
> with that. My theory is that it is human nature, perhaps, to want to
> avoid a realization that would somehow invalidate past experiences. I
> mean, LET IT GO!!! There is so much to learn and discover. Where is
> our curiosity!?
>
> Audiophiles are passionate hobbyists. There is no finality or else it
> wouldn't be a hobby. Today is such an unbelievable golden era for those
> of us who use a digital front end. A proper hi-end turntable rig is
> still king when it comes to bottom line sound quality. Digital is
> finally, after all this time, getting to a point where even the most
> hardcore vinyl audiophiles are taking note. It is delusion to believe
> that any of us have the very best sound quality possible in our home
> systems right this moment. There is ALWAYS a tweak if not a major
> upgrade which could not have been imagined.

Since I got my vitriol out in my prior response now I am willing to
offer an olive branch and hopefully move forward and try and make this
forum, as you stated a place "for enthusiasts to share experiences &
possibly learn from one another". So with that end in mind I suggest
that we try and focus on topics that hopefully will not lead to flame
wars and name calling. I am going to start a new thread along the lines
of what the future of audio might be in a digital world. Let's see how
that goes.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
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[arnyk]

jkeny wrote:
> If only the so-called scientific minded would just show some semblance
> of inquisitiveness, it would be a refreshing break from the usual
> cynicism.
>

if?

The cynicism is based on the lack of inquisitiveness of high end
audiophiles in general.

In 1977 some friends of mine and I developed an improved methodology
for doing listening tests that controlled the following well-known
biasing factors:

(1) Use comparisons to a fixed, reliable standard.

(2) Minimize switch over times. Don't rely on cable-swapping,

(3) Use proper level matching.

(4) Listening to the identical same piece of music or drama synchronized
within a few milliseconds.

(5) Concealing the true identity of the UUTs from the listener

Applying these controls is well known to vastly change the outcomes of
listening tests, and generally makes them conform far better to other
independently obtained knowledge about sound quality.

So of course the world of audiophilia picked up these new techniques
with open arms and adopted them as their new standard. (sarcasm!)

Reality is that they (including Jkeny) have been ranting and raving ever
since about how these innovations desensitize their ears and foil their
abilities to enjoy music.

>
> It seems as though anything that these people are afraid of
> demonstrating any interest or inquisitiveness less they be seen as
> succumbing to a weakness.
>

That does indeed describe the reaction of about 99% of high end
audiophiles, reviewers and manufacturers to these scientifically proven
innovations.


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[arnyk]

rgro wrote:
> Point taken, but to state the obvious, many on these forums are not, nor
> have ever been, part of the scientific community.

Classic move-the-goalpost deflection.

How insensitive and/or naive does one have to be to think that a thread
title such as "This time it WAS the (USB) cable" would not cause a lot
of pointed questions to be raised?


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[Archimago]

rgro wrote:
> Point taken, but to state the obvious, many on these forums are not, nor
> have ever been, part of the scientific community. Therefore, the
> opportunity to develop the "thick skin" and respond appropriately to
> what, to you, is normal and genuine scientific skepticism or inquiry has
> not, shall we say, been fully developed. Trying to immediately
> strong-arm a non-scientist/non-academic into reacting and thinking as
> one is more a failing of the educator as opposed to the "educatee".
>
> Thus, further inquiry and learning is often discouraged by the
> perception of being attacked which is, in a forum which is clearly meant
> to be a non-academic/non-scientific environment (which you must admit,
> this surely is), a deterrent to some who might otherwise seek to
> continue seeking further testing/information gathering.
>
> Getting defensive against a perceived attack is a perfectly human
> response and rather than immediately labeling people as intellectually
> lazy, shills, audiophools, placebophiles, ad infinitum, they may be just
> inexperienced. A gentler touch and a patient explanation or two would
> do far more to encourage those, so inclined, to keep exploring rather
> than to raise the drawbridges and retreat behind the castle walls.
> Then, rather than immediately polarize and close a mind, you've
> encouraged a more rational approach, educated a person or two and
> actually gone a ways to, as you, Arny, and others here have said is your
> wish, bring a few souls more into the science side of things.

Thank you for that well worded response.

I, like Julf, Gandhi, and I suspect Arny as well come from a "culture"
where scientific rigour and criticism is part of the day-to-day
interaction if not *expectation*. I have seen academics levelled to
tears when presentations are ripped to shreds or the dread of PhD
candidates leading up to a thesis defence, or the agony of failure in
not achieving renewal of grants or acceptance of research that they
poured their hearts into.

As a sympathetic person, one of course does not really want to see such
thing happen to "good people", or friends even. But it is necessary in
the interest of pursuit of truth and defence of one's position in the
academic setting. Success does not come without adequate discipline... I
think many of us feel that the typical mainstream audiophile press (and
this goes beyond audiophilia of course) is like the researcher who
forges ahead with their line of thinking without thoughtful
consideration of what is real and putting their beliefs to the test.
Some obviously do not even seem to have the basic understanding of what
they write about and this is obvious if not embarrassing. This is for me
at least one big concern because without the foundation of what is
"real", bizarre beliefs become indistinguishable and promotion of these
beliefs will damage credibility - especially when it becomes some kind
of accepted "dogma" within the majority in the hobby! Thankfully in
audio, nobody's (hopefully) going to die from these beliefs, but
fundamentally, dishonesty (when they're consciously aware of it!) or
promotion of self delusion (when there might not be insight) by the
peddlers of hype should not IMO become some kind of accepted conduct. I
don't pretend nor see myself grandiose enough to be able to change this
situation in the big picture, however, it is better to try in whatever
way.

This of course leaves the question of how we conduct ourselves... Sure,
we might not be a forum where academics gather or operate on these
principles in a -rigid -fashion, certainly I hope folks see the fun in
these discussions and don't get turned off, never speaking up or ask
questions. Rather I hope it promotes more experiments and tests for
oneself! Conducting ourselves I hope would be the least troublesome.
"Respectful assertiveness" I think can be achieved in balance and in my
"younger days" as an audiophile, I would have loved to find a forum
which was open enough to listen, friendly with suggestions, but all the
while keeping an eye on the theme of finding the "truth". Remembering
that audio hardware operates within the domain of science and
engineering. (I am open to hearing if folks feel otherwise and why...)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> Remembering that audio hardware operates within the domain of science
> and engineering. (I am open to hearing if folks feel otherwise and
> why...)

"But music is ART, not science..." :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[rgro]

Archimago wrote:
> Thank you for that well worded response.
>
> I, like Julf, Gandhi, and I suspect Arny as well come from a "culture"
> where scientific rigour and criticism is part of the day-to-day
> interaction if not *expectation*. I have seen academics levelled to
> tears when presentations are ripped to shreds or the dread of PhD
> candidates leading up to a thesis defence, or the agony of failure in
> not achieving renewal of grants or acceptance of research that they
> poured their hearts into.
>
> As a sympathetic person, one of course does not really want to see such
> thing happen to "good people", or friends even. But it is necessary in
> the interest of pursuit of truth and defence of one's position in the
> academic setting. Success does not come without adequate discipline... I
> think many of us feel that the typical mainstream audiophile press (and
> this goes beyond audiophilia of course) is like the researcher who
> forges ahead with their line of thinking without thoughtful
> consideration of what is real and putting their beliefs to the test.
> Some obviously do not even seem to have the basic understanding of what
> they write about and this is obvious if not embarrassing. This is for me
> at least one big concern because without the foundation of what is
> "real", bizarre beliefs become indistinguishable and promotion of these
> beliefs will damage credibility - especially when it becomes some kind
> of accepted "dogma" within the majority in the hobby! Thankfully in
> audio, nobody's (hopefully) going to die from these beliefs, but
> fundamentally, dishonesty (when they're consciously aware of it!) or
> promotion of self delusion (when there might not be insight) by the
> peddlers of hype should not IMO become some kind of accepted conduct. I
> don't pretend nor see myself grandiose enough to be able to change this
> situation in the big picture, however, it is better to try in whatever
> way.
>
> This of course leaves the question of how we conduct ourselves... Sure,
> we might not be a forum where academics gather or operate on these
> principles in a -rigid -fashion, certainly I hope folks see the fun in
> these discussions and don't get turned off, never speaking up or ask
> questions. Rather I hope it promotes more experiments and tests for
> oneself! Conducting ourselves I hope would be the least troublesome.
> "Respectful assertiveness" I think can be achieved in balance and in my
> "younger days" as an audiophile, I would have loved to find a forum
> which was open enough to listen, friendly with suggestions, but all the
> while keeping an eye on the theme of finding the "truth". Remembering
> that audio hardware operates within the domain of science and
> engineering. (I am open to hearing if folks feel otherwise and why...)

Absolutely awesome post, Archimago. I come from an academic family and,
in fact, just attended my daughter's thesis defense, so I'm somewhat
familiar with the process! Your post iis precisely what I'd love to
see more of (not to mention your very cool and informative blog posts!)

Arny may well come from the same culture, but the type of response I've
quoted below (just a few posts above yours), is gratuitous and doesn't
belong here. It seems to me to only be designed to provoke, not to
inform or educate. I think I acknowledged my error and Julf's point
sufficiently and won't respond to yet another of Arny's personal
beat-downs. His technical knowledge may be superb, but his bedside
manner is sorely lacking. Somebody who he respects ought to firmly
inform him he's doing far more harm than good to the effort to, as you
say, "achieve a respectful assertiveness" toward the end of bringing
more curious and rational thinkers into the "fold".

"Classic move-the-goalpost deflection. How insensitive and/or naive
does one have to be to think that a thread title such as "This time it
WAS the (USB) cable" would not cause a lot of pointed questions to be
raised?"



Rg

System information
------------------------
Main: Vortexbox/Squeezelite > USB> Benchmark DAC2 D > LFD LE IV
Signature amp > Revel Performa F208 speakers.

Home Theatre: Touch (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic
5.1, Touch FW 7.8.0-r16754.

LMS 7.9.0 - 0.71.20150313git1426153261 on a 1TB Micro Vortexbox
Appliance, V 2.3.
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[arnyk]

rgro wrote:
>
> > army wrote:
> >
> > "Classic move-the-goalpost deflection. How insensitive and/or naive
> > does one have to be to think that a thread title such as "This time it
> > WAS the (USB) cable" would not cause a lot of pointed questions to be
> > raised?"> >
>
The question appears to still stand unanswered, except now it has been
additionally deflected with a personal attack.


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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Remembering that audio hardware operates within the domain of science
> and engineering. (I am open to hearing if folks feel otherwise and
> why...)

Julf wrote:
> "But music is ART, not science..." :)

Archimago your statement should read "Remembering that -*the designing-*
of audio hardware operates within the domain of science and
engineering."

However -*the marketing-* of audio hardware, especially high end audio
hardware, operates within the domain of FUD (fear, uncertainty and
doubt).



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Archimago your statement should read "Remembering that -*the designing-*
> of audio hardware operates within the domain of science and
> engineering."
>
> However -*the marketing-* of audio hardware, especially high end audio
> hardware, operates within the domain of FUD (fear, uncertainty and
> doubt).

Yup... Marketing will always operate in its own domain. Which of course
brings us back to the question of *-"where are the regulators!?"-*

Sadly, I think for companies such as the cable ones who claim to do
"research", it's research on how to *-"maximize income"-*.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Yup... Marketing will always operate in its own domain. Which of course
> brings us back to the question of *-"where are the regulators!?"-*
>
> Sadly, I think for companies such as the cable ones who claim to do
> "research", it's research on how to *-"maximize income"-*.

But they MUST do research since there are people wearing lab coats in
the advertisements and those people produce very serious "white
papers".

Hey the automotive world has JD Powers awards and the audiophile cable
world has "white papers". And the buying public gets the shaft either
way.

My car got a JD Powers award for being the top rated car by people whose
last names begin with H and end in R and who bought a new car on the
first Saturday of August 2014!

Archimago, maybe in Canada there may still be a few regulators but here
in the good old USA!!!! we don't need no stinking regulators, just ask
Dr. Oz (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS-Qpp5asSE)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
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[rgro]

Well, this is all very interesting, indeed. To answer a few of the
questions: 1) I changed absolutely nothing except the cable--it was a
30 second process. 2.) I actually have a dot marked on the LFD amp
where the volume is set at a constant level. It hasn't been adjusted or
changed in many, many months. 3.) I only use the control on the
Benchmark to control volume. 4.) The 2-3 db difference in L vs. R
speaker was measured at several different volume levels (I don't recall
what they were exactly, as it was many months ago).

Arny, while perhaps the cause is, as I'd originally thought, not as
obvious as just changing a cable, I'm therefore completely mystified as
to what did precipitate the change. I see your point about how the
cable is intended to function and am even more mystified. To your other
point, though, this isn't some subtlety here. I have a hard time
imagining that anybody with any kind of normal binaural hearing would
not easily and repeatedly recognize, in the same listening position and
listening to the same track (such as a well-recorded single female
vocal), when that voice is centered midway between the speakers vs.
when it's located a good 4' to one side. And it wasn't just one track,
it was any single vocal, single instrument, etc. (even the Stereophile
L/R/C test track with the bass guitar). I'd certainly be curious to hear
more theories and VERY curious as to ideas as to why the original
problem precisely reconstitutes itself when the old USB cable is
reinserted.

And, again, for y'all who just want to take shots, here, I'm making no
claims that veils are lifted, angels sang, etc., only that a modest
imbalance in L/R speaker volumes was resolved and a stereo image that
was stable for many months had a gross change when nothing (at least to
my knowledge, and I'm the only one who touches this gear) but a
different (not even close to expensive) USB cable was inserted.



Rg

System information
------------------------
Main: Vortexbox/Squeezelite > USB> Benchmark DAC2 D > LFD LE IV
Signature amp > Revel Performa F208 speakers.

Home Theatre: Touch (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic
5.1, Touch FW 7.8.0-r16754.

LMS 7.9.0 - 0.71.20150313git1426153261 on a 1TB Micro Vortexbox
Appliance, V 2.3.
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[DJanGo]

Yupp same by me

After changing my USB Cable from the Camera to the PC all my Pictures
are not b/w anymore i have colour!

Cost me nothing more than 40 T€uros a newer Digital Cam would cost
more.

In Germany we would call this 1.st of April Issue



Gruss

Jan
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[mooblie]

Classic case of:

-There MIGHT have been a casual (read: co-incidental) link between the
USB cable and the speaker re-balance, but there cannot have been a
CAUSAL link.
-
Technically impossible.



Martin at
*_'HeadSpin_HD'
(http://www.headspin.plus.com)_* now on -*Blu-ray-*
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