[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?

[Archimago]

Thanks guys for the discussions over the last few weeks... Lots of
heated discussions over the last while from Pono apologists vs.
tech/general sites! Time to go a little beyond the superficial and look
at some literature and summarize all I really need to say about HRA I
think... :-)


'
MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/01/musings-what-is-value-of-high.html)



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[darrenyeats]

These internet arguments are tiring. I just take a personal approach. So
far I've decided through my own listening (some sighted some blind) that
lossless 16/44 is better than Spotify (albeit slightly) but I've not
heard any convincing demonstration of an audible difference between
16/44 versus hi-res despite trying.

If I were at some point to hear a convincing demonstration (probably
also involving sighted and blind) of an audible difference between 16/44
versus hi-res, then I'd change my position. Simples.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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[Mnyb]

Post by darrenyeats
These internet arguments are tiring. I just take a personal approach. So
far I've decided through my own listening (some sighted some blind) that
lossless 16/44 is better than Spotify (albeit slightly) but I've not
heard any convincing demonstration of an audible difference between
16/44 versus hi-res despite trying.
If I were at some point to hear a convincing demonstration (probably
also involving sighted and blind) of an audible difference between 16/44
versus hi-res, then I'd change my position. Simples.

+1

we may need a drake equation for the probability of finding a worthwhile
hirez release :)



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[probedb]

Post by darrenyeats
If I were at some point to hear a convincing demonstration (probably
also involving sighted and blind) of an audible difference between 16/44
versus hi-res, then I'd change my position. Simples.

Indeed. The only people I'll chat with about this stuff now is friends
and I'll point people just getting interested in the right directions. I
can't be bothered to argue with people whi have no interest in reality
any more.



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[pablolie]

and the other question is...

has listening to a good 16/44 recording ever imposed a limit of my full
enjoyment of a great performance?

there are several recordings i own in two versions: the first ripped
from the original CD i owned (16/44 flac), the second the HDtracks
version at 24/192, and in one case i also have a car friendly 320k MP3.

(1) Bill Evans - Waltz for Debby. one of the greatest live recordings
ever. adore it. but given the limitations imposed by the original
recording, i will be damned if i can hear a difference between the
192/24 and the 320k MP3 (let alone the 16/44 flac). i have tried -
someone plays the different versions to me. i love them all, but it
seems a random act to try to tell them apart.

(2) Grover Washington - Winelight. i actually seem to defualt to the
192/24, seems an ounce better, perhaps a better master tape or a little
volume boost.

(3) John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman - one of my favorite recordings of
all time. i prefer the 16/44 rip, the 192/24 seems artificially sharp at
worst and pointlessly volume boosted at best, sounding a bit like a DDD
CD from 1990AD (shiver).



...pablo
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[RonM]

Post by pablolie
(3) John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman - one of my favorite recordings of
all time. i prefer the 16/44 rip, the 192/24 seems artificially sharp at
worst and pointlessly volume boosted at best, sounding a bit like a DDD
CD from 1990AD (shiver).

I see there are two releases available on Amazon, 2008 and 1998, both
purporting to be remasterings. Do you have a recommendation?

r.



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[darrenyeats]

Of the 20 or so albums I was potentially interested in from HD Tracks,
most had actually a -worse- DR than the best CD available according to
DR Database! Obviously I can only go by the albums I was interested in.
There were a couple that seemed to offer a superior DR, these were
American Idiot and Pure Heroine, and I am happy with those.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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[ralphpnj]

Nicely done Archimago

I'm always amazed at the tempest in a teapot that high resolution audio
has become. I say this because the vast majority of people listen to
their music with those freebie headphones that come with their smart
phones. That is when they are actually listening to a song or album that
they downloaded or ripped. For the remainder of the time they are more
than likely listening to the audio track from youtube video. And when
their not using those crappy earphones then they are listening to the
those tiny speakers in either their phone, tablet or computer. So much
for any kind of "sound quality". Reminds me of the fact that many people
spend hours watching stretched, standard resolution video on their fancy
HDTVs when the high definition version is just a button push away.

As for the issue of dynamic range compression I'll repeat what I've been
saying for years - start listening to either jazz or classical music
since neither of these genres suffers from the effects of the loudness
war.

Just want to let you know that the Pono player sounds great when playing
a Pono branded high resolution remaster with the latest Apple freebie
earphones! :)



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[Archimago]

Ralph: Indeed the high resolution audio stuff has become heated of late.
But in this activity and interest, hopefully reasonably rational
discussion can take place so as to at least "nudge" towards change that
could be beneficial.

Plus there's *no way* I can honestly let Michael Fremer and Lavorgna
drag up the ghost of the Oohashi paper after a decade and a half or just
declare the Meyer-Moran stuff "debunked" like this as if they know what
they're talking about!

At least I've said my peace for what it's worth on Pono, HRA, and the
importance of the mastering. Time to take a break from the "musings",
enjoy some music and maybe measure my room response or something over
the next few weeks :-).



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[Julf]

Post by Archimago
Plus there's *no way* I can honestly let Michael Fremer and Lavorgna
drag up the ghost of the Oohashi paper after a decade and a half or just
declare the Meyer-Moran stuff "debunked" like this as if they know what
they're talking about!

Good luck with that - they seem to belong to the "science is only good
when it supports our views" club...

Post by Archimago
I tend to listen to more live classical than recorded as I have seasons
tickets to the local symphony... In fact some Sibelius, Prokofiev,
Bruckner tomorrow night.

Excellent! What Sibelius piece, and who is conducting?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Julf
Good luck with that - they seem to belong to the "science is only good
when it supports our views" club...

I believe that every member of the US Congress and Senate is a charter
member of the "science is only good when it supports our views" club.



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[Mnyb]

Post by ralphpnj
I believe that every member of the US Congress and Senate is a charter
member of the "science is only good when it supports our views" club.

That's a thing about science the results are true even if you don’t like
them or believe in them .

extremely annoying when your job is to push/peddle opinions or if your
are elected just because your disconect with reality suits a large
voting population .... ?



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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
That's a thing about science the results are true even if you don’t like
them or believe in them .
extremely annoying when your job is to push/peddle opinions or if your
are elected just because your disconect with reality suits a large
voting population .... ?

I don't want to derail this thread into a political discussion so I'll
add one comment and that's it: Mnyb you have the US mistaken for Sweden
- members of the US Congress and Senate don't answer to the voters, they
answer to and obey their campaign contributors.



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[Archimago]

Post by Julf
Good luck with that - they seem to belong to the "science is only good
when it supports our views" club...
Excellent! What Sibelius piece, and who is conducting?

Vancouver Symphony tonight is 'Bramwell Tovey'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bramwell_Tovey) conducting the -Valse
Triste-. I must admit I don't have a recording of this in my library so
will see how I like it.



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[pablolie]

Post by RonM
I see there are two releases available on Amazon, 2008 and 1998, both
purporting to be remasterings. Do you have a recommendation?
I also see that HD Tracks has a 48/24 version for sale, I wonder if that
suffers from the same faults as your 192/24?.
r.

i got the 24/192 on hdtracks indeed. the other one must be the '98
version.

funny we're talking bill evans. i am just playing "best of bill evans",
and i love it, and i just checked and it's a [gasp] 192k MP3 from my
dark early iTunes days :-D to me that shows it's primarily about the
performance and the recording, and only marginally whether it's 16/44 or
24/192...

17257


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...pablo
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[Archimago]

Post by pablolie
i got the 24/192 on hdtracks indeed. the other one must be the '98
version.
funny we're talking bill evans. i am just playing "best of bill evans",
and i love it, and i just checked and it's a [gasp] 192k MP3 from my
dark early iTunes days :-D to me that shows it's primarily about the
performance and the recording, and only marginally whether it's 16/44 or
24/192...
17257

AAARRRGHHHH! 192kbps!? Not even 256kbps!?

I dunno pablolie, but I'm sure your audiophile card just got revoked...
Didn't ya hear, N.Y. said 'MP3 sounds like sh*t'
(http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2014/03/11/pono).

:-)

Carry on.



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[pablolie]

Post by Archimago
Didn't ya hear, N.Y. said 'MP3 sounds like sh*t'
(http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2014/03/11/pono).

as far as i am concerned, he always did. whether as vinyl or early
itunes or 48/384 (which i am sure must sound decidedly better than
24/192) :-D



...pablo
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[Mnyb]

I think my audiophile card got revoked when I put my high end cable
collection in the recycling dumpster including a set of audio quest
caldera speaker wires....

Anyhow I do sometimes buy the HiRez version of something if it's aviable
, but I rarely go above 24/96 that's good enough .



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[Archimago]

Post by Mnyb
I think my audiophile card got revoked when I put my high end cable
collection in the recycling dumpster including a set of audio quest
caldera speaker wires....
Anyhow I do sometimes buy the HiRez version of something if it's aviable
, but I rarely go above 24/96 that's good enough .

Ouch. Couldn't you resell some of that stuff and get a few bucks back?
That's what a friend did... Got rid of all his expensive wires, stayed
with some Mogami's. Tells me he has been happy to be free of the cable
obsession since.



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[Mnyb]

Post by Archimago
Ouch. Couldn't you resell some of that stuff and get a few bucks back?
That's what a friend did... Got rid of all his expensive wires, stayed
with some Mogami's. Tells me he has been happy to be free of the cable
obsession since.

No I thought it immoral to do soo I did not want peddle snake oil myself
, this stuff actually sits very well in the dumpster :D



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[Archimago]

Post by Mnyb
No I thought it immoral to do soo I did not want peddle snake oil myself
, this stuff actually sits very well in the dumpster :D

Wow. A man of principle! Impressive!



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[Archimago]

if he lives long enough and sticks true to his record of living off his
legacy and not writing any new music, but rather pimping HR msuic stuff,
i am sure in 3 years he'll tell us pono sounds like sh*t and his new
48bit 284kHz XHD biz is finally the truth in all things music
resolution. until Moore's Music Resolution Law (written by Geoffrey's
slightly less talented brother) notches things up to 96bit and 568kHz or
something...
...

96/568 - that's the promised land! By then, imagine how much better and
more detailed recordings with up to 22kHz, 96dB noise floor, and DR7 can
sound! :o



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[ralphpnj]

My audiophile card was revoked the first time I heard "Jazz at the Pawn
Shop" and promptly declared that it was pure dreck and that I much
prefer to listen to Louie Armstrong's Hot Five and Sevens recordings.



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[CharlieG]

Post by ralphpnj
My audiophile card was revoked the first time I heard "Jazz at the Pawn
Shop" and promptly declared that it was pure dreck and that I much
prefer to listen to Louie Armstrong's Hot Five and Sevens recordings.

WOW!
I'm so glad you posted this. I can't get into "Jazz at the Pawn Shop"
either.
I thought maybe it was over my head!



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[darrenyeats]

Post by Julf
Except when they are just conversions from 44.1/16....
Oops I forgot about those gems.

In many cases, not even the best 16/44 masters.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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[ralphpnj]

Post by CharlieG
WOW!
I'm so glad you posted this. I can't get into "Jazz at the Pawn Shop"
either.
I thought maybe it was over my head!

For some very strange reason I don't think that the sound of people
eating and glasses clinking is music, no matter how lifelike and well
recorded they may be.



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[mlsstl]

Post by ralphpnj
My audiophile card was revoked the first time I heard "Jazz at the Pawn
Shop" and promptly declared that it was pure dreck and that I much
prefer to listen to Louie Armstrong's Hot Five and Sevens recordings.

I second the motion. The music comes first -- a wonderful recording of
bad music is like watching a mindless sitcom rerun on a 4K ultra
definition TV. Why bother?


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[Archimago]

Post by pablolie
(2) Grover Washington - Winelight. i actually seem to defualt to the
192/24, seems an ounce better, perhaps a better master tape or a little
volume boost.
...

Interesting you mentioned this one in 24/192. One of the few 192kHz
DVD-A rips I've actually kept in the native format instead of
downsampling; sounds excellent!



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[Squeezemenicely]

Archimago as usual your views and research are a very interesting read.

Being a listener with relatively good hearing, I have often asked myself
if there really is a difference between a CD flac and 24/96. Often it is
the better remaster that makes the "big" difference.

Also maybe the placebo effect, still sometimes I prefer the 24/96files.
The difference is slight, but somehow it seems there is more audible
space in the higher frequencies - no idea how to put it - probably
sounds silly anyway.
I find it is best heard on a solo violin, it sounds a bit different -
but it it is difficult to pinpoint.

But, truthfully the difference is pretty small - so no real reason to
throw away all CDs and only buy hires.

Sure the industry is now hoping to have something that will actually
sell music again - since Streaming does not offer hires (yet).

The most interesting point is, how the human mind works - how we see and
hear things differently - if we want to, or are told to do so...



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Synology DS-410j NAS
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[Mnyb]

There is also a factor with badly desiged equipment, a DAC or AV amp
could actually sound different with diffrent source formats , how is it
with DSD for example .

High end or not , bad design can pop up anywhere . But high end is
actually a more likely place more cultish design done by ear instead of
measurements .

That's why blogs as arhimogos or NwAudioGuy (or whats he's moniker ) are
important , the magazines should call out bad design more often .



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Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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[Wombat]

Post by Squeezemenicely
Also maybe the placebo effect, still sometimes I prefer the 24/96files.
The difference is slight, but somehow it seems there is more audible
space in the higher frequencies - no idea how to put it - probably
sounds silly anyway.
I find it is best heard on a solo violin, it sounds a bit different -
but it it is difficult to pinpoint.
But, truthfully the difference is pretty small - so no real reason to
throw away all CDs and only buy hires.

It shouldn't. A violin at 20kHz can produce overtones but these are
already maybe 60dB down to the rest.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
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[ralphpnj]

One thing that has been touched upon but not delved into is the fact
that many of the high resolution downloads available on both HDTracks
and Pono are labeled as "remastered" when in actual fact they are not
really remastered but just repackaged versions of previously available
high resolution releases, e.g. either DVD-A or SACD. I don't know about
you but when I see the label "remastered" I assume (yes I know one
should never assume anything) that it means that the original master
tapes (for older analog recordings) or the original master digital files
(for digital recordings) have been used to produce a new master and a
new A to D conversion.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
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[Julf]

Post by ralphpnj
One thing that has been touched upon but not delved into is the fact
that many of the high resolution downloads available on both HDTracks
and Pono are labeled as "remastered" when in actual fact they are not
really remastered but just repackaged versions of previously available
high resolution releases, e.g. either DVD-A or SACD.

Except when they are just conversions from 44.1/16....



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Julf
Except when they are just conversions from 44.1/16....

Oops I forgot about those gems.



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& Energy sub
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[Archimago]

Post by Squeezemenicely
Archimago as usual your views and research are a very interesting read.
Being a listener with relatively good hearing, I have often asked myself
if there really is a difference between a CD flac and 24/96. Often it is
the better remaster that makes the "big" difference.
Also maybe the placebo effect, still sometimes I prefer the 24/96files.
The difference is slight, but somehow it seems there is more audible
space in the higher frequencies - no idea how to put it - probably
sounds silly anyway.
I find it is best heard on a solo violin, it sounds a bit different -
but it it is difficult to pinpoint.
But, truthfully the difference is pretty small - so no real reason to
throw away all CDs and only buy hires.
Sure the industry is now hoping to have something that will actually
sell music again - since Streaming does not offer hires (yet).
The most interesting point is, how the human mind works - how we see and
hear things differently - if we want to, or are told to do so...

Thanks for the note "squeezemenicely". Glad that you've had a chance to
listen and compare between the different bit depths and sample rates. As
expected, the difference is small and like you said, not worth throwing
out the CDs... (In fact, often old CDs will sound better than remasters
on a good sound system.)

I think in time as folks have a good listen, they will realize the
"realist" position which has been reiterated time and again in the
literature that differences are small if even noticeable. Not the
dramatic changes the peddlers want to portray. Nothing wrong with
desiring hi-res versions for one's peace of mind owning the "best"
available, I suppose.

I just hope the public can be educated enough to recognize the
importance of better sounding masters...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[CharlieG]

Post by Squeezemenicely
Archimago as usual your views and research are a very interesting read.
Being a listener with relatively good hearing, I have often asked myself
if there really is a difference between a CD flac and 24/96. Often it is
the better remaster that makes the "big" difference.
Also maybe the placebo effect, still sometimes I prefer the 24/96files.
The difference is slight, but somehow it seems there is more audible
space in the higher frequencies - no idea how to put it - probably
sounds silly anyway.

Sometimes the album is mastered differently for the different media.
"Hypnotic Eye" - Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, was issued with
different masters for CD (which is DR 7) and vinyl, hires download, and
blu ray (which are DR 13). I can't remember which version went to
iTunes.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=hypnotic+eye

BTW my hearing is a mess. I have almost no hearing in my left ear
(sudden sensorineural hearing loss). I can't tell which direction
sounds come from. When audiophiles talk about soundstage being wider,
shallower, voices in the middle, etc. its all lost on me.

I can't tell the difference between 24/96 and 16/44, but I can still
tell a bad (loudness wars) mastering from a good one.

I bought quite a lot of "remastered" rock CDs because I didn't know any
better. I loved the way my speakers sounded on acoustic music but not
so much on electric music. I then bought the Steven Wilson remix of
"The Yes Album", compared it to the previous (loud) CD I had and was
blown away. My speakers sounded good on this electric music! For me
the difference in in the mastering



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7.8.0
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[kidstypike]

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/it-was-one-of-kickstarters-most-successful-109496883039.html?src=rss&utm_content=buffer60e10&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer
:( :rolleyes: ;)



kidstypike
1 x SB3 - 1 x Boom - 1 x (Squeezebox) Radio - 2 x Touch - 2 x
piCorePlayer
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[ralphpnj]

Post by kidstypike
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/it-was-one-of-kickstarters-most-successful-109496883039.html?src=rss&utm_content=buffer60e10&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer
:( :rolleyes: ;)

Thanks for the link! A very thorough review (and bashing) of the much
hyped Pono player and music, although it is not without its share of
errors (both the original article and the referenced link
(http://thestereobus.com/2008/01/12/sample-rate-and-bitrate-the-guts-of-digital-audio/)
don't quite the whole bit depth concept correct).



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
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[Archimago]

Post by kidstypike
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/it-was-one-of-kickstarters-most-successful-109496883039.html?src=rss&utm_content=buffer60e10&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer
:( :rolleyes: ;)

Yeah. That's a good one! Will be very interesting to see what happens to
Pono now in the public eye. No surprise for folks who've tried tests
with hi-res audio. As suspected, very possible to see a public backlash
for the unrealistic silly hype. I still just hope the importance of
mastering gets *strongly* discussed so there is at least an opportunity
to change sound quality for the good.

As for the "Jazz In The Pawnshop", does anyone know where the history of
this one began in terms of the audiophile psyche? Something about it
being featured in some Hong Kong audiophile magazine or something like
that?

I agree - it sucks. But I do have it around for the visiting audiophiles
who love the jazz-club ambience :-).



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[Mnyb]

Post by Archimago
Yeah. That's a good one! Will be very interesting to see what happens to
Pono now in the public eye. No surprise for folks who've tried tests
with hi-res audio. As suspected, very possible to see a public backlash
for the unrealistic silly hype. I still just hope the importance of
mastering gets *strongly* discussed so there is at least an opportunity
to change sound quality for the good.
As for the "Jazz In The Pawnshop", does anyone know where the history of
this one began in terms of the audiophile psyche? Something about it
being featured in some Hong Kong audiophile magazine or something like
that?
I agree - it sucks. But I do have it around for the visiting audiophiles
who love the jazz-club ambience :-).

I have no idea , but I think it's a bit out of context anyway . You must
probably be from Sweden ( like me ) and possibly also been to the
pawnshop jazz club ( check ) also be a bit older than me and have some
nostalgia for that part of Swedish jazz history and these performers .

Why it's been lifted out off its cultural context over space and time
and are revered by Japanese high end aficionados ? Some things are true
mysteries .

However the record company proprius have made many excellent classical
and choral recordings over the years and some other stuff too .

I think it's ok and it actually does sound exactly like that jazz club .
But it is of no significance in the greater scheme of things .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
As for the "Jazz In The Pawnshop", does anyone know where the history of
this one began in terms of the audiophile psyche? Something about it
being featured in some Hong Kong audiophile magazine or something like
that?
I agree - it sucks. But I do have it around for the visiting audiophiles
who love the jazz-club ambience :-).

I believe that "Jazz at the Pawn Shop" is so bad that it has to be #1 on
the late HP's "Super Disc List", of as I like to called it "The List of
Discs To Be Avoided Like the Plague".

By the way, the best jazz club ambiance I know of is free drinks!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
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& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
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Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
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