Discussion:
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interesting read regarding bandwidth of musical instruments
Jeff07971
2016-12-12 19:29:35 UTC
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After an "interesting" :) discussion here regarding bandwidth and sample
depth/rates in digital audio I found this interesting :-

http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm



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arnyk
2016-12-12 19:47:30 UTC
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Post by Jeff07971
After an "interesting" :) discussion here regarding bandwidth and sample
depth/rates in digital audio I found this interesting :-
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm
I had this article in mind when I mentioned the Harman Mute Trumpet in a
previous post. The thing to remember that the world is full of all sorts
of noises that our ears and brains are blissfully unaware of, and that
keeps our minds focused on the important things.


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Wombat
2016-12-12 19:53:40 UTC
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I have an old thread with people argue about several aspects of what
golden ears believe to be important. Please take some time to follow the
man posting as jj.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=85&sid=ebf649f5fd9a63defdacc7c60d6acb1c



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arnyk
2016-12-12 20:07:29 UTC
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Post by Wombat
I have an old thread with people argue about several aspects of what
golden ears believe to be important. Please take some time to follow the
man posting as jj.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=85&sid=ebf649f5fd9a63defdacc7c60d6acb1c
That articleis based on this article:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06/ by - you guessed it, Ethan
Winer.


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Julf
2016-12-12 19:59:13 UTC
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The thing to remember that the world is full of all sorts of noises that
our ears and brains are blissfully unaware of, and that keeps our minds
focused on the important things.
We have a fair number of bats living in the neighbourhood, and while
their chatter might be interesting (and I do track some of it with a
system that changes their pitch into audible range), I do not mind my
music system not being able to reproduce it...



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Jeff07971
2016-12-12 20:34:18 UTC
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Post by arnyk
I had this article in mind when I mentioned the Harman Mute Trumpet in a
previous post. The thing to remember that the world is full of all sorts
of noises that our ears and brains are blissfully unaware of, and that
keeps our minds focused on the important things.
I thought It might be after reading it !

However there is reference http://jn.physiology.org/content/83/6/3548
which seems to suggest that our brains are affected by signals outside
Post by arnyk
In conclusion, our findings that showed an increase in alpha-EEG
potentials, activation of deep-seated brain structures, a correlation
between alpha-EEG and rCBF in the thalamus, and a subjective preference
toward FRS, give strong evidence supporting the existence of a
previously unrecognized response to high-frequency sound beyond the
audible range that might be distinct from more usual auditory phenomena.
Now I've got to go and find the SMPS that I can hear whining, and no I'm
not joking !


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Julf
2016-12-12 21:06:12 UTC
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Post by Jeff07971
However there is reference http://jn.physiology.org/content/83/6/3548
which seems to suggest that our brains are affected by signals outside
the 20Khz window even if we can't "hear" them
The Oohashi research has pretty much been discredited, mainly because it
"originates with a single research group whose results contain some
contradictions and whose results have apparently never been
independently reproduced". On the other hand, there is ample
reproducible research indicating that ultrasonics are inaudible to
humans.



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Jeff07971
2016-12-12 21:15:01 UTC
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Post by Julf
The Oohashi research has pretty much been discredited, mainly because it
"originates with a single research group whose results contain some
contradictions and whose results have apparently never been
independently reproduced". On the other hand, there is ample
reproducible research indicating that ultrasonics are inaudible to
humans.
From wiki so it may be rubbish:-
Post by Julf
Criticism of Oohashi's studies has been directed primarily at the
conclusions regarding listener's preferences the test material; there
has been little criticism aimed at the physiological aspect of the
studies.
Studies cited as contrary evidence did not address the physiological
brain response to high-frequency audio, only the subject's conscious
response to it. Further investigation of the observed physiological
response appears to show that the ear alone does not produce the extra
brain waves,[12] but when the body is exposed to high-frequency sound it
gives some brain stimulus
Isn't this the ultimate DBT ? Even the subject didn't know they were
reacting ! :)



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Julf
2016-12-13 02:55:48 UTC
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Post by Jeff07971
Isn't this the ultimate DBT ? Even the subject didn't know they were
reacting ! :)
Yes - and if other researchers can reproduce and verify the results, it
would definitely be interesting, but until that happens, I am afraid it
has to be filed away in the "cold fusion" category.



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arnyk
2016-12-13 13:28:50 UTC
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Post by Jeff07971
From wiki so it may be rubbish:-
Isn't this the ultimate DBT ? Even the subject didn't know they were
reacting ! :)
The ultimate DBT was the release and distribution of DVD-A and SACD. It
was ultimately found that about half the first 5 or more years of
released (and sold) recordings had low resolution provenance. AFAIK no
high end reviewer or audiophile ever detected them for publication for
something like a decade (if ever). Do you know of any? Did you know
yourself?

Some techies found the flaw my means of spectral analysis and at the
point of he publication of their AES paper, the evaluation arguably
stopped being double blind. The technical paper revealing this was
apparently not read by anybody in the high end press who could
understand it. Or maybe they just hid it from the public.


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arnyk
2016-12-13 13:31:14 UTC
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Post by Julf
The Oohashi research has pretty much been discredited, mainly because it
"originates with a single research group whose results contain some
contradictions and whose results have apparently never been
independently reproduced". On the other hand, there is ample
reproducible research indicating that ultrasonics are inaudible to
humans.
The Oohashi paper was funded by Japanese high end audio manufacturers
and "shopped" to a number of professional journals before they found one
who had standards that allowed them to print it.


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Jeff07971
2016-12-13 13:48:41 UTC
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Do you know of any? Did you know yourself?
I did not know that

I only bought 2 SACD's Pink Floyd "The Wall" and Herbie Hancock
"Headhunters"

I thought Headhunters SACD sounded way better than CD, Is there any
information as to what SACD's were from 16/44 and was this one of them ?



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arnyk
2016-12-13 14:05:42 UTC
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Post by Jeff07971
I did not know that
I only bought 2 SACD's Pink Floyd "The Wall" and Hebie Hancock
Headhunters.
The Wall was originally recorded in 1979 or earlier and Headhunters
1973 or earlier. I googled on stuff like "title" + release date.

Both have solidly low resolution provenance, and an technical analysis
of the current SACD releases no doubt confirm that.

Once resolution is taken away by analog recording or legacy digital, its
gone forever and that's it.
Post by Jeff07971
I thought Headhunters SACD sounded way better than CD,
Probably remasters, which changes the timbre, but not the actual
resolution.
Post by Jeff07971
Is there any information as to what SACD's were from 16/44 and was this
one of them ?
Well, if you study history you know what the best technology that was
available when, and as your examples show, you can figure out a lot from
simple Google searching.


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Jeff07971
2016-12-13 14:13:14 UTC
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Headhunters 1973 or earlier. I googled on stuff like "title" + release
date.
I couln't find anything pertinent I did have a fair google !

The only thing I found was that my copy was one of the rarer ones (SONY
one)

I'll have to find it and Ebay ! :)



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arnyk
2016-12-13 14:31:35 UTC
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Post by Jeff07971
I couln't find anything pertinent I did have a fair google !
The only thing I found was that my copy was one of the rarer ones (SONY
one)
I'll have to find it and Ebay ! :)
Edit: And WOW if that was from a 1973 master !!!
I have a modest collection (about 2,000 discs) of classic rock and pop
as well as contemporary music on CD pretty solidly from the 50s until
now. Some of the masters of music I have on CD dates back to the 1950s
and a little maybe from the 1940s.

I have significant number of commerical CDs from analog masters before
the CD, that were transcribed to CD along the way. By the early 1990s
some CD transcriptions are audibly compressed, but the same titles that
were first transcribed in the early-mid 1980s can sound pretty good.

IME by the early 1970s the sound quality of recorded music was pretty
good and remained good then and remained so as long as hyperprocessing
and ultramastering were avoided. By then most large studios were solid
state from wall to wall, and more than a little mastering was done on
early digital recorders. A lot of early digital mastering sounds very
good and can date back to the late 1960s.


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philippe_44
2016-12-13 03:43:28 UTC
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Post by Jeff07971
After an "interesting" :) discussion here regarding bandwidth and sample
depth/rates in digital audio I found this interesting :-
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm
I'm not sure anybody claims that such instruments do not produce >20KHz
sound, like some produce heat, light reflexion, change the % humidity in
the air when you blow in them (I'm not being sarcastic) and maybe other
things. The point is that these elements are under perceptual level of
humans and/or irrelevant for replay. Or shall we reproduce all the
environment variables of a recording when it was made? A dog barking at
the other side of your town will make a noise of which some will reach
you when you listen ... but you'd probably agree there are neglegible.
Your hearing has a lowpass filter <20KHz, so even if the instrument has
a decent amount of energy >20KHz, as long as the digitization process
include as similar lowpass filter before sampling @ more than Nyquist,
then there is no aliasing and your human filter versus the digitization
filter have no more difference/impact than the barking dog.



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Julf
2016-12-13 06:52:19 UTC
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Your hearing has a lowpass filter <20KHz.
Ah, but how about my pet bat Eric? :)



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philippe_44
2016-12-13 17:30:28 UTC
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Post by Julf
Ah, but how about my pet bat Eric? :)
He's going to hate you



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drmatt
2016-12-13 07:46:03 UTC
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So what about we avoid the resampling step to 44/16 and just start
shipping the digital masters in 96/24 or whatever they are? Why would
anyone object?




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Julf
2016-12-13 08:58:15 UTC
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Post by drmatt
So what about we avoid the resampling step to 44/16 and just start
shipping the digital masters in 96/24 or whatever they are? Why would
anyone object?
Most of them seem to be 48/24. 95% of music buyers would probably object
to having to pay the extra cost of shipping files that are more than 3
times as big as needed (and mostly containing random noise or empty
bytes).



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Julf
2016-12-13 09:11:22 UTC
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(Hmm. Are we having the same conversation in two threads?! :) )
Clearly we are. Happy to continue in whichever thread you want.



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Jeff07971
2016-12-13 14:05:24 UTC
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Post by Julf
Clearly we are. Happy to continue in whichever thread you want.
Its not really the same conversation really, I do not say that the way
the 0's and 1's are "shipped" makes any difference.

I am however saying maybe higher sample rates and possibly bit depth
would be more sensible despite what the average person may hear.

The commonly held belief (and entirely reasonable) is that we can only
"hear" up to 17 (or so) Khz the 22 Khz (or so) limit is only about 1/4
octave or 25% "safety" factor against the average.

I wouldn't want to use a safety rope with 125% breaking strain on the
average mass of a human or in a plane where wing strength was 125% of
actual load would you ?



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Julf
2016-12-13 14:23:30 UTC
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Post by Jeff07971
The commonly held belief (and entirely reasonable) is that we can only
"hear" up to 17 (or so) Khz the 22 Khz (or so) limit is only about 1/4
octave or 25% "safety" factor against the average.
I wouldn't want to use a safety rope with 125% breaking strain on the
average mass of a human or in a plane where wing strength was 125% of
actual load would you ?
Ropes and digital filter margins are not quite the same thing. 25% might
or might not be an adequate safety margin - it all depends on the
circumstances. 1/4 octave is ample margin with modern filter technology.



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arnyk
2016-12-13 14:42:42 UTC
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Post by Jeff07971
Its not really the same conversation really, I do not say that the way
the 0's and 1's are "shipped" makes any difference.
I am however saying maybe higher sample rates and possibly bit depth
would be more sensible despite what the average person may hear.
Oh, that straw man again. As I and others have pointed out, the human
ear is mechanically limited at both ends of the spectrum by its design
and construction. We know what the best ears can do, and the xisting CD
standard is more than sufficient.
Post by Jeff07971
The commonly held belief (and entirely reasonable) is that we can only
"hear" up to 17 (or so) Khz the 22 Khz (or so) limit is only about 1/4
octave or 25% "safety" factor against the average.
Pretty close.
Post by Jeff07971
I wouldn't want to use a safety rope with 125% breaking strain on the
average mass of a human or in a plane where wing strength was 125% of
actual load would you ?
I'm trained and practiced as a mechanical engineer as well as
electrical, and trust me, the meaning of safetly margins are very
different in the two different contexts.

In the audio domain there is no appreciable degradation that we have to
keep in mind when we set safety factors. There is no possibility of
unintentional overload. Perchance we get a little close to the margins,
nobody gets hurt or dies.

In mechanical systems:

(1) Overload has to be considered, because its almost always going to
happen, period.

(2) The structure physically degrades in use or non-use. IOW we make
mechanical systems like 10 times or stronger than the average design
load because its gonna rust or decay or lose its heat treating or
fatigue, whatever.

There are no corresponding effect with audio bandwidth.

Modern digital audio gear typically does not change its performance one
iota until it breaks and then the failure is total. Much analog gear is
the same. For example, the treble in your old analog power amp measures
and sounds the same as it did decades ago.


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Mnyb
2016-12-13 15:33:28 UTC
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As being suckered in by the original hirez campaign and having a lot of
DVDA a think it's correct to say that 50% is fake and probably more so
with the more popular SACD format .

I did buy a lot AIX/itrax releases these are actual hirez recordings.

I see the marketing angle here they recording industry blew "remastered
" we all know it's usually loudness war crap :/
If you actually do a carefull and improved mastering of something how to
convince the by now sceptical buyer ?
The hirez moniker fills this marketing niche nicely.

And there is a prevailing myth among audiophiles that there is something
more in an analog master than 16/44.1 covers ?
This is false . Especially these 70's rock recordings thats very popular
as hitez hmm :D you don't need a bigger bucket when its half filled at
16/44.1 .

I gladly buy a 24/96 if it is from a newly found or carefully restored
master and it brings something new .
But i do not obsess over the carrier media these days i buy it on CD too
if it can find locally .

But the consumer choice in some cases has been mp3 or hirez , in some
cases actual 16/44.1 flac.
I'll take the lowest rate hirez if their is a choice 24/192 or DSD go
for more $ so if there is 24/96 or 24/48 I'll consider those.
And ofcourse 16/44.1 if it exists.

Bandcamp for example is usually 16/44.1 but sometimes 24/48 or 24/96 or
16/48 refreshingly enough you know when you download :) the artist don't
market it as special.
They just uploaded what they got very nice .

The DSD craze ? It must be the world most unnecessary format i have one
album the label did not have in any other format.



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Mnyb
2016-12-13 09:22:31 UTC
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My thoughts.

Only closely miced apply ultrasound is rapidly damped in air.

The 20kHz is welll established due to the mechanical "design" of our ear
, exceptions is extremely rare .

HF hearing starts to detoriate when we are kids and dont get better.

And the extrme ends of our range 20 and 20khz are realy only audible at
really loud levels so loud that you wont hear 20kHz sittings in the
concert hall even if an acoustic instrument outputs this . And probably
uncomfortable levels at your home me stereo.

Mass market migth not want tp pay for 24/48 original masters instead you
can buy them upsanpled to 24/192 at hd tracks ;)
I think Julft is rigth here at best most of music has a 24/48 original.
Bith depth today we know how dither works so >100 dB with 16 bits is
possible and just random noise and no nasty classic sample noise.

If you do test your hf hearing at home there are some caveats.

Bad anti aliasing and intermodulation , my computer soundcard is not
very good or the pulse audio sound system is not enterily rigth , so i
cant do the test on my computer. Beware of you amps and speakers to !
They behave weird with high hf levels.

And for voodoo dacs like NOS without proper filters they put out quite
audible levels of junk when feed close to fs signals.
So when out confused audiophile friends hear a difference it can be true
;) but again not for a good reason .
Somehow diffrent is always better ?? Supose this can also be true for
some exotic folter sulotions that deviate from standard practice.



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Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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drmatt
2016-12-13 15:57:19 UTC
Permalink
I got a few 24/44 flac files from warp records, that's about it for
"hires".




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