Discussion:
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile power cables don't just seem like a scam - they actually are.
Julf
2016-04-23 10:56:33 UTC
Permalink
'Nordost and AXPONA Demo Questions - By Mark Waldrep'
(http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5656)

'Nordost Demo MysteriesÂ…Solved! Part II'
(http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5659)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
ralphpnj
2016-04-23 13:35:07 UTC
Permalink
To paraphrase an old joke:

How do you tell when a high end audio manufacturer/reviewer/salesman is
lying?

Their lips are moving.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-04-23 13:43:27 UTC
Permalink
What keeps amazing me is the boundless optimism of audiophiles.

Rather incredible claim A shown to be false or fake.
Rather incredible claim B shown to be false or fake.
Rather incredible claim C shown to be false or fake.
Rather incredible claim D shown to be false or fake.
Rather incredible claim E shown to be false or fake.
Rather incredible claim F shown to be false or fake.
.
.
.
Rather incredible claim X shown to be false or fake...

Oh, look, a new, incredible claim Y - it hasn't (yet) been shown to be
false, so it must be true!



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Wombat
2016-04-23 14:20:07 UTC
Permalink
This Waldrep is another nominee for the Balls Of Steel award in
audioland!
I wonder at what point he decided to counter argument this madness
emerging around him driven by charlartans?



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Mnyb
2016-04-23 14:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Wombat wrote:
> This Waldrep is another nominee for the Balls Of Steel award in
> audioland!
> I wonder at what point he decided to counter argument this madness
> emerging around him driven by charlartans?

He is nice it's probably known to most here that he runs AIX records and
itrax making very well recorded hirez multichannel recordings .

He blogs a lot off all the fakes in so called hirez recording , for
example about that audiophiles thinks analog recordings are hirez etc
...

I have large chunk of AIX DVDA's and the business is small enough that
you sometimes get mail from Mark himself when inquire about things .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
ralphpnj
2016-04-23 14:51:11 UTC
Permalink
Wombat wrote:
> This Waldrep is another nominee for the Balls Of Steel award in
> audioland!
> I wonder at what point he decided to counter argument this madness
> emerging around him driven by charlartans?

My guess is that Mr. Waldrep doesn't care about getting any "long term"
equipment loans or getting additional advertising revenue for his web
site. Honesty is nice but it does come with a rather steep price.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Mnyb
2016-04-23 14:56:11 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> My guess is that Mr. Waldrep doesn't care about getting any "long term"
> equipment loans or getting additional advertising revenue for his web
> site. Honesty is nice but it does come with a rather steep price.

Well if you are a sound engineer professionally you got to have
equipments that actually fit for purpose , that rules out much high end
:)

Pro equipment cost but not as much as some silly priced audiophile gear



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
RonM
2016-04-24 22:19:33 UTC
Permalink
I've been to the Aix site (http://www.aixrecords.com/), and they appear
to have a current "holiday" deal, two for one -- theyt apologize for
being late, have Christmas decorations, but appears to be current. I
assume the need to move product. And I assume it's still in effect, and
is a very good deal. For a small outfit, the content looks great. Some
of it is more than a decade old, but appears to be very fine from a
quality point of view. Check it out.

R.



LMS on a dedicated server (FitPC3)
Transporter (Ethernet) - main listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Touch (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space
Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (WiFi) - home office
Control - Squeeze Control (Android mobile), 2 Controllers (seldom used),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2)
Touch x 1 - spare
UE Radio x 1 - spare
Boom x 1 - spare
Controller x 1 - Spare
Duet Receiver (backup)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Fizbin
2016-04-25 06:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Not only does cheap in-wall wiring render expensive power cords useless
but so does the first six inches of cable inside some A/V PLAYERS, like
this Oppo Blu-ray player.

20360


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: oppo-bdp-103-inside.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20360|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fizbin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58734
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-04-25 07:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Fizbin wrote:
> Not only does cheap in-wall wiring render expensive power cords useless
> but so does the first six inches of cable inside some A/V PLAYERS, like
> this Oppo Blu-ray player.

Ah, but A/V players are not real hi-fi. :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-04-26 12:30:10 UTC
Permalink
Fizbin wrote:
> Not only does cheap in-wall wiring render expensive power cords useless
> but so does the first six inches of cable inside some A/V PLAYERS, like
> this Oppo Blu-ray player.
>
> 20360
The ACTUAL facts are fact worse than that for the magic power cord
brigade.

The two little red wires from the back panel socket to the circuit board
are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to limitations on the
power this product uses.

There's the slight matter of the internals of the BDP 103 power supply.
Studying a number of articles by people who have done mods to BDP-103s,
I find that the consensus is that the BDP-103 is a cost-cutting SMPS
design, and does not have an audio perfectionist approved linear power
supply. Since the power supply is that much more intimately connected to
the signal path than the power cord or internal AC power wiring, why
aren't people upgrading the power supplies of their BDP 103s before
worrying about the more remotely connected and isolated power wiring and
power cord?

Now let me be clear - there are no audible compromises in a
well-designed BD/DVD/CD player due to power cord, power wiring, or power
supplies whether linear or switchmode. This is all about magic dream
castles in the sky. However if one is going to build a dream castle,
shouldn't it show some signs of proper logic or design?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
RonM
2016-04-26 15:40:45 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> This is all about magic dream castles in the sky. However if one is
> going to build a dream castle, shouldn't it show some signs of proper
> logic or design?

And in which theoretical universe does that actually apply? Surely not
the Land Of Audiophila?



LMS on a dedicated server (FitPC3)
Transporter (Ethernet) - main listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Touch (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space
Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (WiFi) - home office
Control - Squeeze Control (Android mobile), 2 Controllers (seldom used),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2)
Touch x 1 - spare
UE Radio x 1 - spare
Boom x 1 - spare
Controller x 1 - Spare
Duet Receiver (backup)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Mnyb
2016-04-26 15:51:50 UTC
Permalink
It's makes perfect sense from the placebo perspektive , the external
cables are clearly visible ,hence it is easy to know about them and thus
bias the usual sighted testing etc :D



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-04-26 21:05:28 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb wrote:
> It's makes perfect sense from the placebo perspective , the external
> cables are clearly visible ,hence it is easy to know about them and thus
> bias the usual sighted testing etc :D

Good point! Most audiophiles are as a matter of actual practice,
placebophiles. If you want to really weird them out, give them a demo of
DBTs that have differences that are both above and below the threshold
of audibility.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
jfo
2016-04-27 02:53:35 UTC
Permalink
The same is true of speakers and cables. You have simple, ordinary wire
inside the source components and amp, then mega $$ speaker cable, then
back to ordinary 14 or 16ga wire running from the crossovers to the
individual speakers, typically using simple slide on spade connectors.
This applies to high end speakers, not just low cost mass market models.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
jfo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1135
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-04-27 07:11:53 UTC
Permalink
jfo wrote:
> The same is true of speakers and cables. You have simple, ordinary wire
> inside the source components and amp, then mega $$ speaker cable, then
> back to ordinary 14 or 16ga wire running from the crossovers to the
> individual speakers, typically using simple slide on spade connectors.
> This applies to high end speakers, not just low cost mass market models.

Occasionally some exotic, small-volume speaker manufacturer uses
audiophile-brand cabling, but if they do, they make sure it gets
mentioned in every review - and that is the only reason to do it.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
banned for life
2016-04-28 16:31:35 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> Occasionally some exotic, small-volume speaker manufacturer uses
> audiophile-brand cabling, but if they do, they make sure it gets
> mentioned in every review - and that is the only reason to do it.

My shop-builts have higher-quality wire and everything is
soldered...20377


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: 20111014561.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20377|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------------------------------------------------
banned for life's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56269
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
sckramer
2016-04-30 01:03:51 UTC
Permalink
banned for life wrote:
> My shop-builts have higher-quality wire and everything is
> soldered...20377

Ahhh, Adcom :) -- good memories, used in college! Still keep my GCA-510
-- just put in a good ALPS bluevelvet pot, original was scratchy!


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: IMG_0226.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20382|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


CiAudio VDC-SB - raspberry pi b+ hifiberry digi+ (BNC added, removed
TOSlink, HDMI disable) piCorePlayer (play song from RAM)
--> Use as controller/desk/reference: Touch (EDO / displayoff plugin,
linear power, removed analog coupling caps, removed TOSlink & resistor,
added spdif isolation transformer & bnc jack )
PSAudio TRIO C-100 (Cullen III, IcePower 300ASC's) - DL3 DAC (Cullen IV)
- Energy Veritas w/Mundorf/Erse Xovers - 2x MartinLogan Descent i -
Dectet - Cardas - BlackCat XV-Ultra
------------------------------------------------------------------------
sckramer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20311
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Mnyb
2016-04-30 04:27:38 UTC
Permalink
banned for life wrote:
> My shop-builts have higher-quality wire and everything is
> soldered...20377

The shop built speakers looks really nice :) but in the background are
those some old infinitys ? A weird brand and a good argument for why
passive xover should be avoided , are they not practically short
circuits :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-04-30 19:42:47 UTC
Permalink
banned for life wrote:
> My shop-builts have higher-quality wire and everything is soldered..

Do those features have anything to do with sound quality?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Archimago
2016-05-01 04:02:09 UTC
Permalink
Well boys. Looks like Nordost issued a "cease and desist" on the good
doctor.

Not surprising... Gotta be careful. This is why I make my own
measurements and ask that the "believers" and manufacturers show me
where I have gone wrong and publish their own results.

Looks like the lawyers made a few bucks. I hope it doesn't go any
further (I suspect unlikely to go further than this).



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Mnyb
2016-05-01 07:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Archimago wrote:
> Well boys. Looks like Nordost issued a "cease and desist" on the good
> doctor.
>
> Not surprising... Gotta be careful. This is why I make my own
> measurements and ask that the "believers" and manufacturers show me
> where I have gone wrong and publish their own results.
>
> Looks like the lawyers made a few bucks. I hope it doesn't go any
> further (I suspect unlikely to go further than this).

Thats just sad :/ but hey look at this this old post where audioquest
does the same thing with hdmi cables http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5547



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Mnyb
2016-05-01 07:11:29 UTC
Permalink
And http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5540 :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Archimago
2016-05-01 18:20:37 UTC
Permalink
Well I just hope this doesn't stop the blogging activities and
no-nonsense discussions on his site.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Fizbin
2016-05-01 22:35:33 UTC
Permalink
For those who missed the article... Just paste the review link in google
and click the cache option. But it won't last forever.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fizbin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58734
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-05-04 07:28:33 UTC
Permalink
Archimago wrote:
> Well I just hope this doesn't stop the blogging activities and
> no-nonsense discussions on his site.

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5680

"I'm going to start a YouTube channel and podcast this summer and will
be challenging some of the claims made by companies selling snake oil.
Power cords are on my list. If anyone...and end user or dealer or
manufacturer...can lend me a very expensive power cord, I would love to
be able to do a scientific comparison between a "state-of-the-art" power
cord and one the one that came with my Benchmark DAC2 (which is what
they recommend be used with their gear). It is possible to measure any
differences between them. My guess is that they won't be any
different...but I'll try to keep an open mind."

I hope he still writes up his experiences too, I am more of a reader
than a youtube-watcher.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Archimago
2016-05-05 02:20:58 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5680
>
> "I'm going to start a YouTube channel and podcast this summer and will
> be challenging some of the claims made by companies selling snake oil.
> Power cords are on my list. If anyone...and end user or dealer or
> manufacturer...can lend me a very expensive power cord, I would love to
> be able to do a scientific comparison between a "state-of-the-art" power
> cord and one the one that came with my Benchmark DAC2 (which is what
> they recommend be used with their gear). It is possible to measure any
> differences between them. My guess is that they won't be any
> different...but I'll try to keep an open mind."
>
> I hope he still writes up his experiences too, I am more of a reader
> than a youtube-watcher.

Nice. More power to Mark for keeping the posts coming and the pressure
on despite the legal "shot across the bow" lately.

Whether rational folks eventually reclaim the mainstream representation
of this hobby or not is unclear in the face of the financial forces and
years of madness... But it's worth a shot and can be plenty fun trying!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-05-05 08:30:10 UTC
Permalink
Archimago wrote:
> Whether rational folks eventually reclaim the mainstream representation
> of this hobby or not is unclear in the face of the financial forces and
> years of madness... But it's worth a shot and can be plenty fun trying!

Indeed. Unfortunately I am afraid the foo will only end because the
whole hobby becomes extinct. 99.99% of people will be happy with the
sound from their iDevices, fashion accessory headsets, docking stations
and chromecast-like devices, and the 0.01% will buy silly-priced luxury
goods just to show off (without actually caring how they really sound).



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-06 12:42:31 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> Indeed. Unfortunately I am afraid the foo will only end because the
> whole hobby becomes extinct. 99.99% of people will be happy with the
> sound from their iDevices, fashion accessory headsets, docking stations
> and chromecast-like devices, and the 0.01% will buy silly-priced luxury
> goods just to show off (without actually caring how they really sound).

Audio foo unfortunately has some strong allies in the natural world. The
idea that two different things can be different but are still
indistinguishable violates most people's common sense. The obvious way
to support that common but false wisdom is to do a sighted listening
test, and we can expect that test to almost always provide positive
results for the universal existence of audible differences.

The technical performance of much modern portable digital audio gear is
generally the best that most people have ever heard. Portable audio
electronics are generally good enough to be sonically transparent or
close to it, and replacing speakers with headphones/earphones and
bypassing room acoustics eliminates a lot of the common failings of
traditional audio systems.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
philippe_44
2016-05-06 16:20:00 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5680
>
> "I'm going to start a YouTube channel and podcast this summer and will
> be challenging some of the claims made by companies selling snake oil.
> Power cords are on my list. If anyone...and end user or dealer or
> manufacturer...can lend me a very expensive power cord, I would love to
> be able to do a scientific comparison between a "state-of-the-art" power
> cord and one the one that came with my Benchmark DAC2 (which is what
> they recommend be used with their gear). It is possible to measure any
> differences between them. My guess is that they won't be any
> different...but I'll try to keep an open mind."
>
> I hope he still writes up his experiences too, I am more of a reader
> than a youtube-watcher.

He has an admirable patience ... testing power cord is beyond my nervous
ability :) I can see how you can degrade things if you have a cord that
is 50 years old, spent some time in water and has been chewed by a few
rats, but other than that, an improvement by using 50cm of just passive
cable that follows 20m of wires installed by a guy with a hammer and a
screwdriver is black magic ... anyway



LMS 7.7.5 - 5xRadio, 3xBoom, 4xDuet, 1xTouch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne,
JRiver 21, Chromecast Audio, Chromecast v1, Pi B2, Pi B+, 2xPi A+,
Odroid-C1, Cubie2
------------------------------------------------------------------------
philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
banned for life
2016-05-02 23:38:30 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> Do those features have anything to do with sound quality?

F3 here is in the vicinity of 30hz. These widdle speakers shake.

The boxes weigh a lot and the drivers are very secure.

Two phrases can guide your life:

"Don't fart around"

"Sign me up"

Your question is not valid


------------------------------------------------------------------------
banned for life's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56269
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
philippe_44
2016-05-03 03:39:46 UTC
Permalink
I have to say that these power cable improvement statements are pretty
mind blowing. I'm usually silent on these posts, but what amazes me is
that, even if you know nothing about technology or science, how can't
you ask yourself the question why the 10's meters of pedestrian cable in
your home don't matter and suddenly 30cm extra cable will change
everything - this is (way) beyond my ability



LMS 7.7.5 - 5xRadio, 3xBoom, 4xDuet, 1xTouch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne,
JRiver 21, Chromecast Audio, Chromecast v1, Pi B2, Pi B+, 2xPi A+,
Odroid-C1, Cubie2
------------------------------------------------------------------------
philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-05-03 07:28:54 UTC
Permalink
philippe_44 wrote:
> I have to say that these power cable improvement statements are pretty
> mind blowing. I'm usually silent on these posts, but what amazes me is
> that, even if you know nothing about technology or science, how can't
> you ask yourself the question why the 10's meters of pedestrian cable in
> your home don't matter and suddenly 30cm extra cable will change
> everything - this is (way) beyond my ability

On the other hand, people still (despite our daily world being totally
dominated by the results of science and engineering) avoid walking under
ladders and freak out when black cats cross the road in front of them.
Not only that, they believe claims made on The Shopping Channel. :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-04-27 11:57:58 UTC
Permalink
jfo wrote:
> The same is true of speakers and cables. You have simple, ordinary wire
> inside the source components and amp, then mega $$ speaker cable, then
> back to ordinary 14 or 16ga wire running from the crossovers to the
> individual speakers, typically using simple slide on spade connectors.
> This applies to high end speakers, not just low cost mass market models.


The really small wires in a speaker are in the drivers and crossover.
They are usually far longer than regular speaker cables, as well.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
sckramer
2016-04-27 21:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Let me play devils advocate :D

These guys are jerks for selling a cable over 3 figures and faking a
demo.

However, know your equipment... if there are internal patch cables, or
computer cdrom audio patch cables (remember those) connecting the rca
input... then who gives a f***, you're wasting money.

But nicely designed equipment have short pathways etc... so a well
constructed rca cable will do *less* harm then the "comes with it china
pack in" same even with the pack in power cords--



CiAudio VDC-SB - raspberry pi b+ hifiberry digi+ (BNC added, removed
TOSlink, HDMI disable) piCorePlayer (play song from RAM)
--> Use as controller/desk/reference: Touch (EDO / displayoff plugin,
linear power, removed analog coupling caps, removed TOSlink & resistor,
added spdif isolation transformer & bnc jack )
PSAudio TRIO C-100 (Cullen III, IcePower 300ASC's) - DL3 DAC (Cullen IV)
- Energy Veritas w/Mundorf/Erse Xovers - 2x MartinLogan Descent i -
Dectet - Cardas - BlackCat XV-Ultra
------------------------------------------------------------------------
sckramer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20311
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-04-28 12:46:53 UTC
Permalink
sckramer wrote:
> Let me play devils advocate :D
>
> These guys are jerks for selling a cable over 3 figures and faking a
> demo. Their cables are butt ugly anyway :D
>
> However, know your equipment... if there are internal patch cables, or
> computer cdrom audio patch cables (remember those) connecting the rca
> input... then who gives a f***, you're wasting money.
>
> But nicely designed equipment have short pathways etc... so a well
> constructed rca cable will do *less* harm then the "comes with it china
> pack in" same even with the pack in stamped power cords, with anemic
> gauge, shoddy solder joints, oxidized brass, no shield--
>

Guess what, all those supposed sins don't change sound quality, unless
you are using them as parts of sighted evaluations.


>
> And yeah in the past maybe I bought into it a little (but no more) re: I
> have some cardas cables... but at least I can compare, they hold their
> value, and they spin their own copper (a lot of cable companies buy bulk
> cardas wire) or at least build your own with belden wire.

Apparently yet another true believer in magic cables.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
sckramer
2016-04-28 15:37:17 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> Guess what, all those supposed sins don't change sound quality, unless
> you are using them as parts of sighted evaluations.
>
> Apparently yet another true believer in magic cables.

I really don't care one way or the other, bad choice of words by me
"bought into it" meant "tried" so I have a few laying around. They are
just another LCR circuit, and those are sometimes magical :rolleyes:



CiAudio VDC-SB - raspberry pi b+ hifiberry digi+ (BNC added, removed
TOSlink, HDMI disable) piCorePlayer (play song from RAM)
--> Use as controller/desk/reference: Touch (EDO / displayoff plugin,
linear power, removed analog coupling caps, removed TOSlink & resistor,
added spdif isolation transformer & bnc jack )
PSAudio TRIO C-100 (Cullen III, IcePower 300ASC's) - DL3 DAC (Cullen IV)
- Energy Veritas w/Mundorf/Erse Xovers - 2x MartinLogan Descent i -
Dectet - Cardas - BlackCat XV-Ultra
------------------------------------------------------------------------
sckramer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20311
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
m1abrams
2016-05-03 12:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Avoid walking under ladders does have some logical reasons, ladders are
not the most stable items and if you are under them they could fall on
you.




------------------------------------------------------------------------
m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-05-03 13:27:33 UTC
Permalink
m1abrams wrote:
> Avoid walking under ladders does have some logical reasons, ladders are
> not the most stable items and if you are under them they could fall on
> you.

True. I was referring to the belief that it brings bad luck, but you are
right - being afraid of walking under ladders is more rational than
believing in audiophile power cables.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-07 20:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Saw this thread and was amazed at the outright fraud displayed in the
demos mentioned at the start. That is truly crazy and, no doubt,
illegal.

Was disappointed to learn that naim, whose gear I like the sound of
normally and who always used to offer a single decent value generic
cable citing no particular performance benefits from any other cables,
have started selling super enhanced power cables.. Which is, broadly
speaking, just a little embarrassing of a turn around.

I tried loads of different power cables over the years. Mainly because
every time I wire my gear up I can't remember which cable went where..




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
ae67
2016-05-08 06:09:23 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
>
> Meanwhile I was disappointed to learn that Naim, whose gear I like the
> sound of btw, and who always used to offer a single decent value generic
> cable citing no particular performance benefits from any other cables,
> have started selling super enhanced cables too..

Thanks for the information.
Set Naim on my no-buy list.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
ae67's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=29964
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Mnyb
2016-05-08 07:48:27 UTC
Permalink
ae67 wrote:
> Thanks for the information.
> Set Naim on my no-buy list.

They are on mine for numerous other reasons it would take days to
enumerate them all , they went over to the silly side of things decades
ago . Or have they returned to more science based reasonable designs
lately ?

But to say something positive about high end for once , they do promote
active speakers :) which is great .

Some companies moved the other way . Musical Fidelity's early stuff was
truly crackpot designs using FET transistors to mimic tube circuits and
the where true bilievers in the church of class-A and at the same time
had loads of crossover distortions in thier designs :P and thier nuvista
stuff is also cargo cult design .

But actually many of thier recent products are reasonable measure and
performs very good .

Quad was a favourite of mine , in the older ESL63 manuals one can read
that no special speaker cables are needed . They always stood for solid
fact based engineering .
With the new owners I'm not so sure , the relaunched their Tube amp ?
Something that I don't think mr Walker himself would do ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
cliveb
2016-05-08 16:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb wrote:
> They are on mine for numerous other reasons it would take days to
> enumerate them all
Perhaps the biggest reason not to buy Naim is simply that it is stupidly
overpriced. For sure, when I did have Naim gear it performed fine and
was bullet-proof reliable, but the price even then was silly.

Mnyb wrote:
> But to say something positive about high end for once , they do promote
> active speakers :) which is great .
I don't know if things have changed recently, but the problem with
Naim's (and Linn's) active offerings was always that they used general
purpose full-range (ie. expensive) power amps. They completely missed
one of the most important advantages of going active, which is that you
can use relatively inexpensive power amps that are matched to the drive
units they are connected to. The bottom line is that Naim (and Linn)
were always more about marketing than engineering.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
------------------------------------------------------------------------
cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
ralphpnj
2016-05-08 17:22:04 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb wrote:
> But to say something positive about high end for once , they do promote
> active speakers :) which is great .

cliveb wrote:
> I don't know if things have changed recently, but the problem with
> Naim's (and Linn's) active offerings was always that they used general
> purpose full-range (ie. expensive) power amps. They completely missed
> one of the most important advantages of going active, which is that you
> can use relatively inexpensive power amps that are matched to the drive
> units they are connected to. The bottom line is that Naim (and Linn)
> were always more about marketing than engineering.

Regarding active speakers please see this new thread:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?105563-Devialet-Phantom-Speakers&p=852607#post852607



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Mnyb
2016-05-08 17:35:09 UTC
Permalink
cliveb wrote:
>
>
> I don't know if things have changed recently, but the problem with
> Naim's (and Linn's) active offerings was always that they used general
> purpose full-range (ie. expensive) power amps. They completely missed
> one of the most important advantages of going active, which is that you
> can use relatively inexpensive power amps that are matched to the drive
> units they are connected to. The bottom line is that Naim (and Linn)
> were always more about marketing than engineering.

And probably also expensive drivers developed for passive speakers with
low order filters , there is an advantage to be missed here too ? And
the box count , box + power supply I s expensive even more so with NAIM
and Linn .

My nr 1 problem is this PRAT nonsense , a major design factor is
something that is unmeasurable by conventinional means ;)
IE it's bs , an amp does not have rhythm and timing etc musicians have
.

So the so called engineering is done around a core belief that's pure
new age ? Everything goes wrong from there .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-05-08 20:00:13 UTC
Permalink
cliveb wrote:
> For sure, when I did have Naim gear it performed fine and was
> bullet-proof reliable, but the price even then was silly.

Wasn't Naim the manufacturer who stipulated using only their own speaker
cables, because their amps became unstable if there was even slightly
too much cable capacitance?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
cliveb
2016-05-08 21:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> Wasn't Naim the manufacturer who stipulated using only their own speaker
> cables, because their amps became unstable if there was even slightly
> too much cable capacitance?
Yes, they did state that you needed to use a minimum of 5 metres (IIRC)
of their speaker cable to "complete the output circuit". (Although it's
funny how Naim power amps were available for years before they ever made
their own speaker cable - how did their output circuit work in those
cases, I wonder?)

My understanding from people with engineering knowledge is that Naim
power amps pretty much operated on the verge of instability.
But the weird thing is that they *were* utterly reliable. Go figure.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
------------------------------------------------------------------------
cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Mnyb
2016-05-09 04:50:28 UTC
Permalink
cliveb wrote:
> Yes, they did state that you needed to use a minimum of 5 metres (IIRC)
> of their speaker cable to "complete the output circuit". (Although it's
> funny how Naim power amps were available for years before they ever made
> their own speaker cable - how did their output circuit work in those
> cases, I wonder?)
>
> My understanding from people with engineering knowledge is that Naim
> power amps pretty much operated on the verge of instability.
> But the weird thing is that they *were* utterly reliable. Go figure.

Once in a while every amp designer is gunning for that zobel network at
the output , this is what makes output impedance go up in the treble on
many amps , it's there for stability . An equally well working advice
could be use ten meters of normal zip cord . Audiophile grade cables
tends to make this worse .

GamuT amps for example came with an extra output without this protective
circuit , that you could use if your speakers did have certain impedance
characteristics .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-09 09:15:03 UTC
Permalink
They stopped advising this ages ago and now don't care what speaker
cables you use or how long they are. I still think they produce kit that
sounds great though. Not sure what PRAT is in relation to an audio
system.. , but I know that whatever it may be that they do to produce
that sound, I like it. It's not boring. I got bored with HiFi a long
time back and didn't upgrade for about a decade until I stumbled on a
Naim.

Yes it's expensive but it's very very low volume sales with therefore
relatively high r&d costs so of course you expect it to be more
expensive than a mass produced system. It's up to you if you think it's
worth it.




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-05-09 10:07:22 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> Not sure what PRAT is in relation to an audio system..

"Pace Rhythm Attack Timing", a favourite term among the flat earth
school of hifi. Usually indicative of a slightly uneven frequency
response, accentuating some frequencies.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-09 10:19:49 UTC
Permalink
Yes, I have heard the term plenty of times, but mean I have no idea what
it really means wrt to frequency response, linearity, or anything else
of the system..




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-05-09 10:37:16 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> I wonder if they even know themselves? Is it just a fluke based on their
> standard amp design methodology?

It was probably originally a fluke based on the distortion and frequency
non-linearity of their early products. Once they discovered that their
"flat earth" fan base liked it, I think they have tried to preserve it
in more recent products.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Mnyb
2016-05-09 10:52:45 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> It was probably originally a fluke based on the distortion and frequency
> non-linearity of their early products. Once they discovered that their
> "flat earth" fan base liked it, I think they have tried to preserve it
> in more recent products.

And actively adopted by the sellers , been to sme Linn demos back in the
day . Naim is a bit rare where i live borowed an older amp when I was
young preferd my used luxman :) ( poor student ) been to some demo years
ago .

Niam also sell eye watering expensive preamps , rather linestage (
preamp to me has phono tone controlls ,balance apart from source
switchng ) ? A simple linestage can be done with some0.1$ op amps.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-09 10:48:18 UTC
Permalink
I think they do know, now. They have DSPs in various products that they
probably had to write code so that mimics the "house sound".

"Flat earthers"? You seem quite bitter about something.. Step up on the
couch and tell me what it is... ;)




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-05-09 12:48:27 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> "Flat earthers"? You seem quite bitter about something.. Step up on the
> couch and tell me what it is... ;)

I am simply using an established term describing the 1980's Linn/Naim
enthusiasts.

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/the-new-flat-earth/



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
andy_c
2016-05-12 02:46:24 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> I am simply using an established term describing the 1980's Linn/Naim
> enthusiasts.
>
> http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/the-new-flat-earth/

They even had their own magazine for a brief time:
"'_The_Flat_Response_'
(http://thetomtomclub.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-flat-response-magazine)".
:)


------------------------------------------------------------------------
andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-05-12 07:55:12 UTC
Permalink
andy_c wrote:
> They even had their own magazine for a brief time:
> "'_The_Flat_Response_'
> (http://thetomtomclub.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-flat-response-magazine)".
> :)

Heh, yes... "These were exciting, ground-breaking and pioneering days in
hi-fi. Linn and Naim were the first manufacturers to talk about music.
How a system has to swing, have rhythm. They talked about their systems
only in terms of music – not treble, bass and midrange."



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-12 11:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> Heh, yes... "These were exciting, ground-breaking and pioneering days in
> hi-fi. Linn and Naim were the first manufacturers to talk about music.
> How a system has to swing, have rhythm. They talked about their systems
> only in terms of music – not treble, bass and midrange."

Treble, bass, and midrange are actually musical terms. The idea that
only a certain very few and expensive systems have swing and rhythm is
a self-serving myth. Bass, treble and midrange are real.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
andy_c
2016-05-12 21:29:34 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> Heh, yes... "These were exciting, ground-breaking and pioneering days in
> hi-fi. Linn and Naim were the first manufacturers to talk about music.
> How a system has to swing, have rhythm. They talked about their systems
> only in terms of music – not treble, bass and midrange."

That quote is a satire of itself! Poe's Law is in effect here.

I must admit though, I used to fall for that stuff at one time. I
actually bought a Linn Sondek LP12 from Havens and Hardesty in
Huntington Beach in the early 1980s. When I picked it up, I saw a few
copies of what looked like a cross between a comic book and a Linn
advertisement on the counter. Thinking it was promotional material, I
took two different ones with me when I took the turntable home. When I
got home, I looked at it and saw there was a price tag of something like
$5.00 for each issue. So, unbeknownst to me, I had shoplifted two
copies of The Flat Response!

I read them both and they were completely nuts! The cover of one of
them, which was apparently accusing Martin Colloms of being in cahoots
with Japanese manufacturers, had a racist depiction of a Japanese guy
that looked like WWII propaganda. There were quotes from Ivor
Tiefenbrun saying that you couldn't have any speakers in the room other
than the ones you were using, not even a telephone! At the time, I
wrote it off as just Tiefenbrun being a highly eccentric character.
Little did I know that this kind of thing would become the norm in
high-end audio, and Tiefenbrun would be thought of as some sort of
genius.

Even now, thinking about "The Flat Response" still makes me laugh.
There used to be a site that had scans of every issue, but it appears to
be gone now. I wish I had downloaded them all.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-13 12:32:59 UTC
Permalink
andy_c wrote:
> That quote is a satire of itself! Poe's Law is in effect here.

IOW, it is so flawed that it is hard to tell how serious the author is
about it. Sort of like reading the collected works of Michael Fremer, or
most of the rest of the Stereophile and The Absolute sound staff.


>
> I must admit though, I used to fall for that stuff at one time. I
> actually bought a Linn Sondek LP12 from Havens and Hardesty in
> Huntington Beach in the early 1980s. When I picked it up, I saw a few
> copies of what looked like a cross between a comic book and a Linn
> advertisement on the counter. Thinking it was promotional material, I
> took two different ones with me when I took the turntable home. When I
> got home, I looked at it and saw there was a price tag of something like
> $5.00 for each issue. So, unbeknownst to me, I had shoplifted two
> copies of The Flat Response!
>

Ditto. In fact HP at The Absolute Sound can credit himself for the
invention of The ABX Test. Testing his dogma about SS power amplifier
design was believable enough for me that I had to test it for myself,
and ABX was the methodology that was invented to perform the listening
tests in a bias-controlled scientific way.

>
> I read them both and they were completely nuts! The cover of one of
> them, which was apparently accusing Martin Colloms of being in cahoots
> with Japanese manufacturers, had a racist depiction of a Japanese guy
> that looked like WWII propaganda.
>

Well, Colloms is a hired gun (independent consultant), and he's more or
less in cahoots with the last guy to write a check for him. People I
know who have worked with him say that if you can keep him away from
rubbing his audio weirdness bone, he's a pretty good engineer.

>
> There were quotes from Ivor Tiefenbrun saying that you couldn't have
> any speakers in the room other than the ones you were using, not even a
> telephone!
>

Dubunked with his personal assistance here:
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

>
> At the time, I wrote it off as just Tiefenbrun being a highly eccentric
> character. Little did I know that this kind of thing would become the
> norm in high-end audio, and Tiefenbrun would be thought of as some sort
> of genius.
>

If you qualify that to be "Marketing genius" then I am forced to agree.

>
> Even now, thinking about "The Flat Response" still makes me laugh.
> There used to be a site that had scans of every issue, but it appears to
> be gone now. I wish I had downloaded them all.


Sample here:
http://thetomtomclub.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-flat-response-magazine

Sometimes I wonder where all this weirdness comes from, and here it is:

"Noel admitted that just stating that CD had 40% distortion was about as
meaningful as trying to say that it had negligible distortion, but he
pointed out that digital differs in one vital way from analogue. And
thatÂ’s in the fact that with analogue, as the signal level gets louder
distortion goes up, whereas with digital distortion drops as the level
goes up. At full volume, it is very low indeed, around 0.001%. But at
the levels we mostly listen at, distortion is far from low. His tests
showed that the ear can easily hear signals recorded at a level of -65dB
below full output (0dB) where he measured distortion on the CD player at
around 4% – a far cry from 0.001%! At -90dB, we got a distortion level
of 38.5% THD [total harmonic distortion]. He also pointed out that where
with analogue distortion harmonics are 'even order' and pleasing to the
ear, all of the significant distortion on digital is 'odd order' and
extended right up to 20kHz, which is particularly nasty to the ear."

So here we have one of the classic lies of the vinyl brigade:

"...but he pointed out that digital differs in one vital way from
analogue. And thatÂ’s in the fact that with analogue, as the signal level
gets louder distortion goes up, whereas with digital distortion drops as
the level goes up. At full volume, it is very low indeed, around 0.001%.
But at the levels we mostly listen at, distortion is far from low."

In fact a properly designed digital channel (and most are well enough
designed) has no distortion at all. If one makes naive measurements of
THD one observes the claimed increase pf distortion at low levels, but
if one is moderately well trained and actually looks that the residual
with an educated eye, one finds that the distortion is either all noise,
or that the test signal is improperly generated without dither. The
latter gross error may be found in virtually every technical test of a
digital product in the pages of Stereophile, for example.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
andy_c
2016-05-13 16:01:01 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> "Noel admitted that just stating that CD had 40% distortion was about as
> meaningful as trying to say that it had negligible distortion, but he
> pointed out that digital differs in one vital way from analogue. And
> that’s in the fact that with analogue, as the signal level gets
> louder distortion goes up, whereas with digital distortion drops as the
> level goes up. At full volume, it is very low indeed, around 0.001%. But
> at the levels we mostly listen at, distortion is far from low. His tests
> showed that the ear can easily hear signals recorded at a level of -65dB
> below full output (0dB) where he measured distortion on the CD player at
> around 4% – a far cry from 0.001%! At -90dB, we got a distortion
> level of 38.5% THD [total harmonic distortion].

It's almost a sure bet that the distortion measurements above were done
with an un-dithered test signal as you said.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-13 17:40:40 UTC
Permalink
andy_c wrote:
> It's almost a sure bet that the distortion measurements above were done
> with an un-dithered test signal as you said.

It's an equally sure bet that commercial CD's and DVDs are dithered.
The tests done without dither can have no purpose other than produce bad
performance that has no real-world equivalent.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-13 19:51:07 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> Sample here:
> http://thetomtomclub.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-flat-response-magazine
>

That guy likes to talk about himself.

Seems somewhat disingenuous to attempt to ascribe the "distortion" of
the whole A-D-A digital recording and playback chain of a signal at
-90db to the digital system itself, rather than the whole chain. And I
wonder how bad an LP would reproduce the same signal?

They didn't appear to understand dynamic range.




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Archimago
2016-05-15 00:13:21 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> That guy likes to talk about himself.
>
> Seems somewhat disingenuous to attempt to ascribe the "distortion" of
> the whole A-D-A digital recording and playback chain of a signal at
> -90db to the digital system itself, rather than the whole chain. And I
> wonder how bad an LP would reproduce the same signal?
>
> They didn't appear to understand dynamic range.

The article makes a lot of claims about this Noel Keywood. Would be
interesting to see these articles like: ‘40% THD: Compact Disc – We
explode the low distortion mythÂ’ (May/June 1985) to see what these
people were on about.

Perhaps this is the best clue:

-"Noel admitted that just stating that CD had 40% distortion was
about as meaningful as trying to say that it had negligible distortion,
but he pointed out that digital differs in one vital way from analogue.
And thatÂ’s in the fact that with analogue, as the signal level gets
louder distortion goes up, whereas with digital distortion drops as the
level goes up. At full volume, it is very low indeed, around 0.001%. But
at the levels we mostly listen at, distortion is far from low. His tests
showed that the ear can easily hear signals recorded at a level of -65dB
below full output (0dB) where he measured distortion on the CD player at
around 4% – a far cry from 0.001%! At -90dB, we got a distortion level
of 38.5% THD [total harmonic distortion]. He also pointed out that where
with analogue distortion harmonics are 'even order' and pleasing to the
ear, all of the significant distortion on digital is 'odd order' and
extended right up to 20kHz, which is particularly nasty to the
ear."-

So the dude measures distortion levels in a 16-bit format at -65dB. Very
low level! So he's basically only using the lowest 6-bits! Is that what
they did? And given that CD players / DACs in 1985 were incapable of
full 16-bit accuracy, it looks bad with at best 36dB dynamic range. And
lots of noise, etc... And says this is is a flaw of the digital
system!?

Indeed. These guys should try recording some -65dB signal below the peak
allowable amplitude on a piece of vinyl and tell us how it sounds - if
it's even audible above the surface noise at all!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
mlsstl
2016-05-15 03:24:35 UTC
Permalink
You're right, -65 dB in virtually any analog format is going to be
nothing but noise and distortion. 40% distortion would be dang good
looking in comparison.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-15 15:03:34 UTC
Permalink
mlsstl wrote:
> You're right, -65 dB in virtually any analog format is going to be
> nothing but noise and distortion. 40% distortion would be dang good
> looking in comparison.


Just to clarify, a proper digital signal *at any level* is 100% free of
distortion. It may be have lots of random noise, but there are no added
imperfections that are correlated with the signal, IOW there is no,
nine, nichts, distortion.

The false procedure that golden ears (example: John Atkinson) uses to
create the appearance of distortion is to use an undithered or
improperly dithered test signal.

Here is an example:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/msb-technology-analog-dac-da-converter-and-analog-power-base-power-supply-measurements#ymkqR6bW1PHHkfTl.97

20476

"Fig.6 MSB Analog DAC, waveform of undithered 1kHz sinewave at
–90.31dBFS, 16-bit data (left channel blue, right red).
Read more at
http://www.stereophile.com/content/msb-technology-analog-dac-da-converter-and-analog-power-base-power-supply-measurements."

Undithered digital signals are not proper digital signals, as adding
sufficient dither is a defined part of the digitizing process. They can
only exist as synthetic numeric curiosities, because when you digitize a
real world analog signal, it will either already contain enough natural
noise to dither it. If this is one of the odd situations where enough
natural noise is present the person doing the production work is
supposed to add it himself. Most modern ADCs do this automatically.

If the signal is properly dithered, the low level signal will look like
this:

20475.

Note that there is noise, but no distortion.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: 414MSBfig06.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20476|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
andy_c
2016-05-15 13:27:54 UTC
Permalink
Archimago wrote:
>
> So the dude measures distortion levels in a 16-bit format at -65dB. Very
> low level! So he's basically only using the lowest 6-bits! Is that what
> they did? And given that CD players / DACs in 1985 were incapable of
> full 16-bit accuracy, it looks bad with at best 36dB dynamic range. And
> lots of noise, etc... And says this is is a flaw of the digital
> system!?
>
> Indeed. These guys should try recording some -65dB signal below the peak
> allowable amplitude on a piece of vinyl and tell us how it sounds - if
> it's even audible above the surface noise at all!

Digital systems have this kind of distortion in the absence of dithering
when sampling a continuous-time signal and assigning integer values to
the samples via the nearest integer function (int_value =
floor(float_value + 0.5)). The quantization "noise" of an undithered
conversion of this type is not random, but correlated with the signal.
If you use some software like Matlab to generate a sine wave of
amplitude -65 dBfs in a 16-bit system (amplitude = 10(-65/20)
* 32767), then quantize each sample value to the nearest integer and do
an FFT on the resulting sequence, you see heavy harmonic distortion
which indeed gets worse as the amplitude of the continuous-time sine
wave goes down. If instead you add random noise having a triangular
probability density function of 2 LSBs peak-to-peak to each sample
before rounding to an integer, the harmonic distortion completely goes
away. The quantization noise is randomized in this case. The math
behind all this is covered in '_Wannamaker's_Ph.D_thesis_'
(http://www.robertwannamaker.com/writings/rw_phd.pdf), which he did
under Stanley Lipshitz.

So if the test signals used were generated by simple rounding of the
floating-point values without dithering, you'll see this gross
distortion at low signal levels. But the distortion is not in the
system in this case, but in the test signal!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-17 09:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Archimago wrote:
>
>
> So the dude measures distortion levels in a 16-bit format at -65dB. Very
> low level! So he's basically only using the lowest 6-bits! Is that what
> they did? And given that CD players / DACs in 1985 were incapable of
> full 16-bit accuracy, it looks bad with at best 36dB dynamic range. And
> lots of noise, etc... And says this is is a flaw of the digital
> system!?
>

In 1985 shortly after the CD was introduced, DACs with 16 bit resolution
were available, for example the Sony CDP ES 610:

20488

Notice that all distortion artifacts are 100 dB or more down.

>
> Indeed. These guys should try recording some -65dB signal below the peak
> allowable amplitude on a piece of vinyl and tell us how it sounds - if
> it's even audible above the surface noise at all!

Here's a 60 dB down 1 kHz signal from the same Sony CDP ES 610:

20489

Finally here's a signal recorded via a Grado Black cartridge mounted in
a Rega turntable:

20490

Please notice that the nonlinear distortion artifacts of this device
includes several that are only about 50 dB down.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: grado-SNR.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20490|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-05-17 10:14:48 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> Finally here's a signal recorded via a Grado Black cartridge mounted in
> a Rega turntable

Ah, but that is nice, analog, musical distortion - not the horrible,
square-edged, non-natural digital distortion. :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-17 11:11:08 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> I
> Finally here's a signal recorded via a Grado Black cartridge mounted in
> a Rega turntable...
> Please notice that the nonlinear distortion artifacts of this device
> includes several that are only about 50 dB down.
>

The CD distortion artifacts are only 50db down from the peak signal too.
Or was the turntable sample -scaled- to -2db after it was captured?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-17 11:18:08 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> The CD distortion artifacts are only 50db down from the peak signal too.
> Or was the turntable sample -scaled- to -2db after it was captured?

Please try to compare apples to apples. The LP signal was at maximum
recorded level, The corresponding CD signal recorded at maximum recorded
level has all artifacts > 100 dB down.

The LP signal is what it is, and can't be improved by dither. The CD
signal when properly recorded is dithered.

As noted, these CD signals were not dithered.

I was answering a question about linearity, and as stated not about
perceived freedom from audible distortion. Do try to stay on topic.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-17 11:19:51 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> Please try to compare apples to apples. The LP signal was at maximum
> recorded level, The corresponding CD signal recorded at maximum recorded
> level has all artifacts > 100 dB down.
>
> The LP signal is what it is, and can't be improved by dither. The CD
> signal when properly recorded is dithered.
>
> As noted, these CD signals were not dithered.
>
> I was answering a question about linearity, and as stated not about
> perceived freedom from audible distortion. Do try to stay on topic.

I did not find your comment clear, hence a further question. Do try to
be clear.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-17 11:23:54 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> I did not find your comment clear, hence a further question. Do try to
> be clear.

The information I provided was in plain English. I suspect your biases
clouded your reading acuity.

This is why replying to your posts is a waste of everybody's time. You
are too biased to perceive simple statements that would teach you
something.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-17 11:52:25 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> The CD distortion artifacts are only 50db down from the peak signal too
> in the -60db sample.
>

*Only* 50 dB down from - 60 dB?

Until digital recording that kind of performance from a recording was
long-frustrated dream! That's better than most amplifiers and preamps
that were in use in the day. It's better than most professional
recording microphones and mic preamps.

>
> Or was the turntable sample -scaled- to -2db after it was captured?
>

What is not shown is all the effort it took to get the analog turntable
results as good as they were. If you play a high frequency sine wave
from analog tape or LP, its level often shifts around by several dB with
no help from anyone! It's audible if you play back pure waves. Music
tends to mask it.

The test shown rolled the LP's frequency response very sharply below 300
Hz to avoid corrupting the linearity measurements with the massive
amounts of low frequency noise that is always there.

In contrast, a sine wave recorded digitally and played back on just
about any CD player is far purer than the most perfect test signals most
of us worked with back in the day.

>
> The CD graph is clearly way better than the LP if they're both 0db
> samples though, and that reflects a real, audible improvement ....

The peak levels can be easily read from the graphs that were provided.
Really close to 0 dB. 2 dB is a nit.

The stability of the performance of the CD made it easy to get the
levels to be what I wanted. The LP's typical lack of stability was very
frustrating to work with.

Most people I know who measure LP playback the first time wonder how we
could stand listening to such a mess, and how people can possibly prefer
it today in the face of far superior alternatives.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-17 12:22:19 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> *Only* 50 dB down from - 60 dB?
> Until digital recording that kind of performance from a recording was
> long-frustrated dream! That's better than most amplifiers and preamps
> that were in use in the day. It's better than most professional
> recording microphones and mic preamps.
> [.....]
> Most people I know who measure LP playback the first time wonder how we
> could stand listening to such a mess, and how people can possibly prefer
> it today in the face of far superior alternatives.

I agree completely it's a great result and it's why I never looked back
when I realised I don't have any analogue sources any more, and is why I
loved the idea of a digital integrated amplifier so I truly get a "one
box" solution with uniform high quality sound from all sources. Wish
more companies would get this.

The word "only" was meant to be a comparator to the LP's graph, which
seems it has a different purpose on second inspection, even though it
was presented in response to quoted words about ".. seeing how an LP
would respond at -65db". So, if I'm exhibiting bias, please enlighten..

> One does not generally do a lot of testing of LP playback with -60 dB
> signals, since that is often below the LP's noise floor.

Yep, that was the point.

> A signal played at -60 dB is close to most room's noise floor, so
> signals 40 dB below that are generally lost in room noise. You might
> want to get a SPL meter and do some listening with peak levels 60 dB
> below the loudest levels that you ordinarily listen at.

And this is probably why people still like LPs... ;) Yes I have an SPL
meter and I'm rarely exceeding 90db in normal music (maybe 100 - 105db
on the biggest bass notes - meter set to C weighting) so I have no doubt
any digital artifacts at the ~ -90db level are pretty much inaudible.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-09 14:06:54 UTC
Permalink
Maybe this is why I never got involved in rec.audio and subgroups years
ago..
Never been particularly interested in the brands or the politics and
have generally found myself at dealers listening to stuff to make my own
mind up.

Was always interested in the technology though.




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-09 14:36:11 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> Maybe this is why I never got involved in rec.audio and subgroups years
> ago..
> Never been particularly interested in the brands or the politics and
> have generally found myself at dealers listening to stuff to make my own
> mind up.
>
> Was always interested in the technology though.

A through understanding of speaker technology will result in the well
informed audiophile completely ignoring dealer loudspeaker demos.

Because speakers are so dependent on room acoustics, there is zero
chance that a speaker will sound at home like it sounded in the store.

A store demo might be revealing enough that you would not buy a speaker
that sounded like utter crap, but if a dealer has a speaker like that,
he will probably deploy it in such a way that the audible problems are
masked by the source material, room acoustics, and/or his sales pitch.

For years I have purchased speakers based on no personal audition at
all. What I do is work with electronic equalization, room acoustics and
speaker location to obtain the sound I like.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-09 18:55:10 UTC
Permalink
I didn't say I demo them in the dealer other than as a taster...




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-11 09:44:52 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> I didn't say I demo them in the dealer other than as a taster...
>
> I generally found I can judge the relative merits of a bunch of speakers
> in the dealer to then try out a couple at home. And mostly I've been
> experimenting with electronics not speakers.
>

Given that electronic tend to sound the same, and that speakers almost
always sound different, it is hard to see what useful information can be
generated by the strategy suggested above.

>
> I also found that since I knew the dealer's room so well I can listen to
> a speaker there and have a decent idea how it will sound at home..
>

That would be true if rooms affected the sound of speakers consistently,
but they don't. A room can tend towards one kind of coloration with some
speakers, and another kind of coloration with others.

For example, consider speakers with broad directional coverage versus
those with narrow directivity. A room will generally color the sound of
the broad directivity speaker more, so that what you know about how it
colors sound with some speakers will mislead when auditioning other
speakers. Furthermore, speakers are generally very inconsistent in this
area, so if you want to learn how the room colors speakers, you have to
learn how it sounds with every different speaker.


>
> And any fool who lets the dealer choose the demo music is soon to be
> parted with their hard earned.

Any one who can't tell that speakers in general sound different, and
electronics in general sounds the same will be parted from his cash even
faster.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-09 19:21:23 UTC
Permalink
I also find that if I was going to do electronic/digital eq it would
have to be done per-album, given that they are all mastered so
differently. So I don't.

I actually think that minor tonal differences you just accommodate,
there's not a huge amount of need to correct them in software or
hardware (it gets corrected in wetware). Plus my room is fairly small so
when I'm properly listening i can pretty much treat the speakers as near
field monitors and (almost) forget about the rest of the room.




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-11 10:00:21 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> I also find that if I was going to do electronic/digital eq it would
> have to be done per-album, given that they are all mastered so
> differently.
>

The fact that albums are mastered differently does not oblige the
speaker equalization be individually tuned differently for every album
in any special way that would apply only to electronically equalized
speakers. First off, every speaker is equalized during its design
phase. You have to be intentional about getting the desired frequency
response. Secondly, a speaker that is equalized by the design of its
passive crossover is actually electronically equalized so there is not
necessarily any difference
for this reason. Thirdly, mastering is not necessarily something that
needs to be removed or compensated for.

>
> So I don't.
>

Looks to me like a phobia that is based on a poor understanding of
mastering and loudspeaker design, no doubt reinforced by sighted
evaluations that generally confirm the listener's beliefs, whether true
or false.

>
> I actually think that minor tonal differences you just accommodate,
> there's not a huge amount of need to correct them in software or
> hardware (it gets corrected in wetware).
>

Ignores the fact that mastering is often used to correct tonal
differences, not add them. Trying to compensate for mastering (which is
about far more than just frequency response) can be a giant step
backwards.

>
> Plus my room is fairly small so when I'm properly listening i can
> pretty much treat the speakers as near field monitors and (almost)
> forget about the rest of the room.

Smaller rooms generally color sound at least as much as larger rooms.
The colorations may be different, but they can be just as obvious. Just
because you are listening in the near field does not eliminate the need
for proper room tuning or speaker positioning and equalization in that
room.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-11 16:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Wow, prickly.

Electronics do not sound the same. There, I said it. Now stop telling me
I'm deluded and show me why you aren't.

Re EQ. Fair enough. I can't be arsed, because I know that I accommodate
different tonal balances after a short while listening as I said. More
annoyed with bad mixes on some CDs than the overall tone of my system
(which i chose for its overall tone, by the way).

So what are you trying to say then? You think I'm an idiot for choosing
one amplifier over another because you reckon they all sound the same?
You think I'm an idiot for thinking I can demo speakers in a dealer? You
think I'm an idiot for not actually doing that and demoing them at home
instead? You think I'm an idiot for believing that when I sit forward,
listening, where I'm closer to the faces of the speakers than I am to
the walls that I can't tell the difference between direct radiated sound
and reflected sound?

What is it then?




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-11 17:30:48 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> Electronics do not sound the same. There, I said it.
>

I never said that all electronics sounds the same.

>
> Now stop telling me I'm deluded and show me why you aren't.
>

I never said that you were deluded.

>
> They aren't radically different, but there are subtle differences
> between them. And these differences are not just what can be found on an
> ultra fine equaliser.
>

Provide reliable proof for that, please.

>
> That's what I was looking for.
>

You may be looking for something that does not really exist. If there
were any reliable evidence to back that claim up, things would be
different.

>
> Re EQ. Fair enough. I can't be arsed, because I know that I accommodate
> different tonal balances after a short while listening as I said, as I
> do it every time I switch CDs.
>

If there were any reliable evidence to back that claim up, things would
be different.

>
> More annoyed with bad mixes on some CDs than the overall tone of my
> system (which i chose for its overall tone, by the way). I understand
> the desire to achieve a fully corrected sound, but don't you have to
> keep your head in one location for that to be anywhere near true?
>

Mixing and mastering are two vastly different things. Not knowing that
they are different implies not knowing what the difference is.

This article may help you inform and correct yourself:
http://www.fixyourmix.com/mixing-vs-mastering/

>
> So what are you trying to say then about my choices?
>

The choices are problematical. Some self-education may be in order.

>
> You think I'm stupid for choosing one amplifier over another because
> you reckon they all sound the same?
>

I never said that all amplifiers sound the same. This appears to be just
one of several problematical statements from earlier posts.

>
> You think I'm stupid for thinking I can demo speakers in a dealer? You
> think I'm stupid for not actually doing that and demoing them at home
> instead? You think I'm stupid for believing that when I sit forward,
> listening, where I'm closer to the faces of the speakers than I am to
> the walls that I can't tell the difference between direct radiated sound
> and reflected sound?
>

People can be as smart as they come but still make false claims because
they are poorly informed.

>
> Totally take your point on bass response in small rooms, however, but
> have found a set of speakers I like, and I tested them in my room so...

Asserting that something is correct only because one likes it and with
no other supporting evidence can be called solipsism which is generally
thought to be characteristic of poor logic.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-11 17:42:16 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> I never said that all electronics sounds the same.
>
> Asserting that something is correct only because one likes it and with
> no other supporting evidence can be called solipsism which is generally
> thought to be characteristic of poor logic.

I didn't assert it was correct, only that I liked it and that therefore
my methodology of choosing it was valid .. for me .. and would be valid
for anyone else who has the same goals.

And you said electronics tend to sound the same, which I would broadly
agree with, but as you say, they don't sound the same, so I demoed a few
until I found the one I liked the most. And I could tell the difference,
within the level of testing that I performed.

Touche, I used the term mastering instead of mixing. Well done.

Given that we appear to be in agreement, I'm off to the pub...




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-11 21:20:09 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
>
> I never said that you were deluded.
>

I know, you only implied it.

>
> Provide reliable proof for that, please.
>

You know that it's possible to measure the difference between two
amplifiers in terms of s/n ratio and distortion levels and type of
distortion. Maybe I can hear that?

>
> You may be looking for something that does not really exist. If there
> were any reliable evidence to back that claim up, things would be
> different.
>

This is speculation on my part, but I do find that I become more
comfortable with a mix after a little time, just like I adapt to the
colour of light under which I am observing something, and I still know
what's white and what's off-white.

>
> Mixing and mastering are two vastly different things. Not knowing that
> they are different implies not knowing what the difference is.
>

I know this but used the wrong word. There you go.

>
> The choices are problematical. Some self-education may be in order.
>
> I never said that all amplifiers sound the same. This appears to be just
> one of several problematical statements from earlier posts.
>

What does this word "problematical" mean? Tell me where you think I'm
going wrong? (Given that you don't know the full story, it's a big
assumption that you can.)

>
> Asserting that something is correct only because one likes it and with
> no other supporting evidence can be called solipsism which is generally
> thought to be characteristic of poor logic.

I reviewed my posts and never found something where I made a statement
about anything other than my perceptions, so it's hard to see how I can
be factually incorrect. You may believe, fervently even, that no human
being can reliably and accurately perceive audio differences on the
levels we're likely talking about (but then, you don't even know the
levels I'm talking about yet because I haven't said what equipment I
have listened to), and to some extent I agree that there's obvious
psychological and other reasons why it's difficult to do this. But I am
comfortable that I have chosen a system I enjoy based on consistently
perceived qualities and don't need to "win" an argument here to be ok
with that. In an ideal world I'd jump through hoops and prove that with
whatever tests are required (I'd like to test myself actually, if
nothing else) but this is just one forum, in one corner of the internet,
so if opinions are not welcome here then that's a shame but I don't have
time to change that.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-11 17:48:49 UTC
Permalink
And I just realised I'm being heckled by THE Arny Krueger of rec.audio.*
fame. Awesome! This hasn't happened since 1993!

I thought you were banned from like all Internet forums everywhere...?




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Julf
2016-05-11 19:27:46 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> And I just realised I'm being heckled by THE Arny Krueger of rec.audio.*
> fame. Awesome! This hasn't happened since 1993!
>
> I thought you were banned from like all Internet forums everywhere...?

I think this would be the classic example of an ad hominem comment.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-12 10:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Julf wrote:
> I think this would be the classic example of an ad hominem posting.

This and the many other examples of insults, distortion of posts, and
dismissal of relevant technical comments show me a lack of good faith.
IMO not worth the trouble to reply to.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-12 13:42:22 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> This and the many other examples of insults, distortion of posts, and
> dismissal of relevant technical comments show me a lack of good faith.
> IMO not worth the trouble to reply to.
Funny I feel exactly the same way about your posts in response to mine.

At the end of the day I did not come here to have an argument, I came
to share thoughts and experiences. I'm willing to learn about technology
but have to say I feel well and truly patronised by your responses. If
that's not what you intended fair enough nor did I intend to insult
anyone, but it's easy to get defensive ..

As a serious question, what is it about the squeezebox forums that
brought you here? I assume you use them yourself?




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
StephenPG
2016-05-12 21:30:27 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> Funny I feel exactly the same way about your posts in response to mine.
>
> At the end of the day I did not come here to have an argument, I came
> to share thoughts and experiences. I'm willing to learn about technology
> but have to say I feel well and truly patronised by your responses. If
> that's not what you intended fair enough nor did I intend to insult
> anyone, but it's easy to get defensive ..
>
> As a serious question, what is it about the squeezebox forums that
> brought you here? I assume you use them yourself?

You could learn a lot from him, I know I have, both here and at
Hydrogen.

Mr K, I can pm you an address to post the cheque to... :-)


------------------------------------------------------------------------
StephenPG's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=48249
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-11 20:04:26 UTC
Permalink
"Directed against?" Hardly. Just a comment of recognition from the old
days...




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-15 16:55:20 UTC
Permalink
The -90db signal, with a dithered source, would look more like a PWM
square wave until you put it through the high frequency bandpass filters
necessary for the given DAC's sample rate.

No idea why they print these graphs, they are pretty irrelevant.




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
ralphpnj
2016-05-16 20:40:20 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> The -90db signal, with a dithered source, would look more like a PWM
> square wave until you put it through the high frequency bandpass filters
> necessary for the given DAC's sample rate.
>
> No idea why they print these particular graphs, they are pretty
> irrelevant. They don't seem to draw conclusions from them either.

Simple answer: because the graphs can be produced. And by printing what
appears to be serious measurements their purely subjective reviews are
given that oh so important whiff of objectivity. Or to put it another
way: smoke and mirrors.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
arnyk
2016-05-16 21:57:22 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> Simple answer: because the graphs can be produced. And by printing what
> appears to be serious measurements their purely subjective reviews are
> given that oh so important whiff of objectivity. Or to put it another
> way: smoke and mirrors.

Another example of false objectivity is the all-too-frequent conflation
of dither and filtering by poorly informed audiophiles.. In fact dither
is quite effective with no filtering at all. It does what it does due to
some subtlties assocated with nonlinear processing.

The dither does not reduce the errors caused by interactions between
the digital data and the word clock. Instead, it randomizes the errors
so that the ear is far less sensitive to them.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-16 22:12:05 UTC
Permalink
arnyk wrote:
> In fact dither is quite effective with no filtering at all. It does what
> it does due to some subtlties assocated with nonlinear processing.
>
> The dither does not reduce the errors caused by interactions between
> the digital data and the word clock. Instead, it randomizes the errors
> so that the ear is far less sensitive to them.

As it's well known that the ear can detect signals from actually below
the noise level in some circumstances, the benefit of dither is pretty
obvious in a digital audio signal and are certainly nothing to do with
the filtering. As you know the filtering is required anyway due to,
well, "Nyquist stuff".

Funnily enough, Pioneer's highly respected plasma TVs used masses of
dither to hide solarisation and colour banding in TV images too, as do
many others now. The Panasonic's do it too, but not so aggressively.
Plus of course cheap LCD displays dither when it suits them too.




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Archimago
2016-05-17 04:25:05 UTC
Permalink
ralphpnj wrote:
> Simple answer: because the graphs can be produced. And by printing what
> appears to be serious measurements their purely subjective reviews are
> given that oh so important whiff of objectivity. Or to put it another
> way: smoke and mirrors.

:-)

I suspect there is a bit of this going on with that test... It's "proof"
that digital consists of square waves! For years, before looking into
that test and figuring out what they were doing (-90dB!), I remember
being reminded of this idea every time I looked at this test image.

Of course once I actually started to pay attention and actually thought
about the fact that they were doing -90dB at 16-bits did I realize that
it was actually a -great -thing to see a DAC be able to reproduce that
square wave cleanly and desirable objective evidence of good low-level
accuracy...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-16 21:35:37 UTC
Permalink
A phrase I once heard springs to mind: "never ascribe to malice that
which can be adequately described as incompetence"




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
ralphpnj
2016-05-16 21:40:02 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> A phrase I once heard springs to mind: "never ascribe to malice that
> which can be adequately described as incompetence"

Except in the worlds of high end audio and politics where it is all pure
malice.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
drmatt
2016-05-16 21:49:35 UTC
Permalink
Or marketing. Could also be marketing.




------------------------------------------------------------------------
drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
ralphpnj
2016-05-16 21:59:22 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> Or marketing. Could also be marketing.

Ah yes marketing - and it's evil twin advertising which is another arena
filled to the brim with equal measures of malice and incompetence.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105507
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...