Better SQ w/o iTunes integration

[netchord]

an accidental discovery-perhaps others have already commented on this,
but it was new, and a surprise, to me.

background; my primary system consists of a Transporter-->MF A5
integrated. Transporter is connected via ethernet, as is a 4-5 y/o mac
mini. music is stored on an external FW800 drive, with a 2nd daisy
chained to the first for backup. (the meridian set up in my sig is old)

Elsewhere in the home i have a touch, 2 Radios, and 2 Booms. i will
likely add another touch in the near future. these days I'm also
listening to a lot of vinyl, on an Avid Diva II SP, with Dyna 20x2H.
Speakers are older Vienna Beethovens (not grands). the TT is newer, but
the Transporter, amp & speakers have been in my system for at least 10
years, and i'm very familiar, and comfortable, with the way they sound.

i use iTunes for ripping, and metadata editing, on a separate laptop,
then copy the files to the mini using iTunes on the mini. i've also
used iTunes integration mode in LMS (7.8, and every iteration before
that). part of the reason being I used iTunes before i bought a slim
devices, and it always seemed too much trouble to switch. and for a
while, i occasionally used Pure Music on the mini, with the transporter
as a dac. i like setting up genre based smart playlists in iTunes,
based on playcount, as a way to delve deeper into my fairly large
collection, and there was never an easy way to accomplish this in LMS.
the excellent Smart Mix plugin has changed how I listen however, as has
Qobuz hifi.

recently, my local power company helpfully cut all power to our house,
w/ no notice, as part of a "maintenance upgrade" for the neighborhood.
when power was restored, I couldn't get either HD to mount on the mini,
and further investigation showed the backup to be trashed. so i ordered
a NAS, with the intention of running LMS on it, eliminating the mini &
itunes all together. in prep for the move, I switched off iTunes
integration on the mini so i could experiment with how LMS organized
things on its own, and was able to mount the main music HD.

and it sounds better. punchier, greater dynamic range (less
compressed?), perhaps a little fuller? perhaps there's less processing
overhead on the server- no idea. i have done no a/b testing, nor do i
intend to. the difference is clear, and all the more striking for being
unexpected- i made the change for -organizational- purposes, with zero
thought about SQ.

disclaimer: my system, my ears. ymmv.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[darrenyeats]

Could be just power supply improvement. I do believe this can make a
difference. Given your hi-fi is in effect modulating the power supply,
it isn't beyond the bounds of reason anyway (even if designers try to
design out susceptibility to common problems).



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[lrossouw]

If you are sending the same bits to the touch it should not make a
difference where it is coming from. With or without itunes integration.


Either 1. you are not really hearing this. I suggest a double blind
test to be sure.

Or 2. there must be something else that has changed. Maybe volume that
has changed? Replaygain/Smartgain on but it's no longer getting that
info via itunes, so everything is louder now?

I don't know much about changes in power supply but if possible that may
explain it.



Louis
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/lrossouw)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[darrenyeats]

Sorry I actually misread the comment about the analog rig - thought that
it had improved also. If not, then replay gain etc is a good candidate.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[netchord]

darrenyeats wrote:
> Sorry I actually misread the comment about the analog rig - thought that
> it had improved also. If not, then replay gain etc is a good candidate.

i don't use replay gain.

i'm really hearing it; just don't have an explanation for it. to be
sure, i don't really need an explanation, but it is interesting.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[mlsstl]

netchord wrote:
> i'm really hearing it; just don't have an explanation for it. to be
> sure, i don't really need an explanation, but it is interesting.

I don't know -- the subliminal impact of change can be very dramatic.
Over many years I've had any number of experiences where I've been
listening to my system and paused -- to take a phone call, go to the
bathroom, whatever -- and then when I resume listening the sound quality
seems much more dramatic. There were no changes to the equipment, music
source or settings, yet things sound "better" to me after the
interruption.

I long ago accepted the fact that I'm the biggest variable in my system.
(And that's one of the great ironies. Many audiophiles detest the
thought that their subjective opinions are due in any part to subjective
influences.)

;-)


------------------------------------------------------------------------
mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[lrossouw]

mlsstl wrote:
>
> I long ago accepted the fact that I'm the biggest variable in my system.
> (And that's one of the great ironies. Many audiophiles detest the
> thought that their subjective opinions are due in any part to subjective
> influences.)
>

Unless anything else has changed in the OP's system I believe the above
is relevant :)



Louis
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/lrossouw)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[netchord]

lrossouw wrote:
> Unless anything else has changed in the OP's system I believe the above
> is relevant :)

sure, and perhaps i moved a bit in my chair, or was drinking a syrah
instead of pinot...all valid.

for the record, i was not home when the power company cut the power (my
wife was here), so i think we can discount the likelihood of a power
surge affecting -me- directly.

but it seems just as likely that the server has to work less hard, and
this explains the change.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

netchord wrote:
> but it seems just as likely that the server has to work less hard, and
> this explains the change.

No, not really. While the server might work marginally less hard, it is
extremely unlikely that it would result in audible differences, while
the other explanations offered here are much more likely (rather than
"just as likely").



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[netchord]

Julf wrote:
> No, not really. While the server might work marginally less hard, it is
> extremely unlikely that it would result in audible differences, while
> the other explanations offered here are much more likely (rather than
> "just as likely").

what's the basis for this ranking of likelihood?



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

netchord wrote:
> what's the basis for this ranking of likelihood?

Occam's razor. One explanation stipulates mechanisms beyond current
scientific and engineering knowledge, the other doesn't.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[netchord]

Julf wrote:
> Occam's razor. One explanation stipulates mechanisms beyond current
> scientific and engineering knowledge, the other doesn't.

"you're imagining it" is your "scientific, engineering based"
explanation?



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

netchord wrote:
> "you're imagining it"

Your words, not mine. I prefer to talk about expectation bias,
perception bias and other well-documented phenomena instead of using
emotionally loaded terms. Some people seem to assume that the human
sensory system is a well-calibrated, precise and consistent measurement
system, while pretty much all scientific research shows otherwise.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[get.amped]

"People are squishy" might sum it up well.



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.9.0 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
------------------------------------------------------------------------
get.amped's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10022
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[netchord]

Julf wrote:
> Your words, not mine. I prefer to talk about expectation bias,
> perception bias and other well-documented phenomena instead of using
> emotionally loaded terms. Some people seem to assume that the human
> sensory system is a well-calibrated, precise and consistent measurement
> system, while pretty much all scientific research shows otherwise.

what was the expectation, or perception bias in this instance?

you might reread the OP before you respond.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

netchord wrote:
> what was the expectation, or perception bias in this instance?

I guess primarily the expectation that your sensory system is a
well-calibrated, precise and consistent measurement system.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[netchord]

Julf wrote:
> I guess primarily the expectation that your sensory system is a
> well-calibrated, precise and consistent measurement system.

it may not be well calibrated, but it is well-educated.

frankly, it seems your biases are much more thoroughly ingrained, ie,
the bias that no such change could possibly affect the sound.

in the words of bob stuart: "everything matters."



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[ralphpnj]

netchord wrote:
> it may not be well calibrated, but it is well-educated.
>
> frankly, it seems your biases are much more thoroughly ingrained, ie,
> the bias that no such change could possibly affect the sound.
>
> in the words of bob stuart: "everything matters."

To wit:

After Brazil's horrendous defeat in the World Cup semi-final I tried to
listen to some nicely recorded Brazilian jazz, just to reassure myself
that there are things Brazilians can do with grace and dignity, but alas
the stunning World Cup defeat seems to have adversely affected the sound
of all the Brazilian jazz in my music library. Instead of singing all I
hear now is sobbing. I've checked, rechecked, doubled checked and
doubled rechecked all the setting but still the sobbing continues.

Yes it is true: everything matters.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

netchord wrote:
> "everything matters."

But not equally.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

netchord wrote:
> frankly, it seems your biases are much more thoroughly ingrained

Indeed. I am a very strong believer in provable facts, but more than
happy to be proven wrong - with facts and evidence. Please do!



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[get.amped]

"Everything Matters" should have a (TM) after it. Soft of like "Best
Buy"(TM) to indicate a slogan that is patently not true but may be
useful in marketing.

Because not everything actually matters. Not the type of CPU or RAM or
hard disc in the computer serving digital music files, nor the ethernet
interface or cable connecting it to the network, nor the switches or
routers which propagate those files have anything to with the eventual
sonic quality of those files. They either work as they should according
to the specifications to which they are designed to adhere, or they
don't. But there is no subtle distinction between a Seagate 7200 RPMS
SATA III drive and a WD 5900 RPMS SATA II drive. If that were true,
computing as we know it would simply not function. Digital music files
do not get to be "special" and behave different than other digital data.
The same files delivered over the same network to the same transport to
the same DAC to the same analog system do not just get to be better or
worse quality. So, either the analog system changed after the power
event or the files are not being processed in the same way in the
digital domain. *OR* the differences you perceive simply aren't there,
but I'm not discounting that you are hearing a difference..

I don't use iTunes (or any Apple products for that matter), so I have no
idea what it may or may not do in LMS. I always thought that it was
simply a way of accessing those files using the iTunes database. Is it
possible that there is a transcoding difference if iTunes is installed
or not? You mentioned originally that you used iTunes for ripping, but
not to what format.



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.9.0 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
------------------------------------------------------------------------
get.amped's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10022
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[garym]

get.amped wrote:
> "Everything Matters" should have a (TM) after it. Soft of like "Best
> Buy"(TM) to indicate a slogan that is patently not true but may be
> useful in marketing.

I love the idea. And I can picture the tv commercial. Open to scene of
1950s housewife washing the dishes in the kitchen (picture June Cleaver,
dressed as if she's going out on the town except with apron on). Father
is in the living room playing records smoking a pipe. June calls out,
"Dear, what have you changed, it now sounds wonderful!"


http://eatfeastly.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/leave-it-to-beaver.jpg



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Streaming - Spotify
------------------------------------------------------------------------
garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

get.amped wrote:
> "Everything Matters" should have a (TM) after it. Soft of like "Best
> Buy"(TM) to indicate a slogan that is patently not true but may be
> useful in marketing.

More than just "may". It is a great tool for marketing that speaks to
the OCD side in us. If everything matters, your system is never good
enough and you can always improve it, for example by placing some $2500
coasters made out of titanium and slices of orca penis under the crates
of LP's you have in the attic - resulting in a day and night removal of
veils and a foot-tapping that would make Fred Astaire proud.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Wombat]

Julf wrote:
> ...coasters made out of titanium and slices of orca penis under the
> crates of LP's you have in the attic...
These must sound good! I need some!



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[lrossouw]

netchord wrote:
> it may not be well calibrated, but it is well-educated.
>
> frankly, it seems your biases are much more thoroughly ingrained, ie,
> the bias that no such change could possibly affect the sound.
>
> in the words of bob stuart: "everything matters."

I and some others here have a bias for the evidence based approach...
Which, in all honesty, is not a bad bias to have.

You posted that removing itunes integration improved sound quality. I
am saying I don't think so. And I am saying simply saying it sounds
better is not considered proof because human hearing is easily confused.
You need to be able to consistently differentiate the sound without
knowing which source is which? Surely that's a fair view?

How does integration affect sound quality. It's only active while
scanning the library. So once you've scanned the library the situation
is the exactly the same:
With integration: LMS has a database entry with title, album, artist
pointing to some file on the hard drive.
Without integration: LMS has a database entry with possibly a slightly
different (but in most cases the same) title, album, artist pointing to
the SAME FILE.

What you say is causing a difference cannot cause a difference in audio.
And if that's the only change you are incorrectly hearing a difference.



Louis
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/lrossouw)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[netchord]

lrossouw wrote:
> I and some others here have a bias for the evidence based approach...
> Which, in all honesty, is not a bad bias to have.
>
> You posted that removing itunes integration improved sound quality. I
> am saying I don't think so.

something you cannot possibly say w/ any certainty since you have not
heard my system either before or after the config change, and with my
ears, and my own mental "processing."

all you can say is that some theoretical system, with a theoretical
listener, might sound the same.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Mnyb]

netchord wrote:
> something you cannot possibly say w/ any certainty since you have not
> heard my system either before or after the config change, and with my
> ears, and my own mental "processing."
>
> all you can say is that some theoretical system, with a theoretical
> listener, might sound the same.

Yes webcan we also have sqeuzeboxes and in your situation the output of
the squeezebox should be identical in both cases. Thats just how
squeezeboxes works .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[garym]

netchord wrote:
> something you cannot possibly say w/ any certainty since you have not
> heard my system either before or after the config change, and with my
> ears, and my own mental "processing."
>
> all you can say is that some theoretical system, with a theoretical
> listener, might sound the same.

But using your logic no one can say with any certainty that there are
not little green men with a parallel civilization going on at the center
of the Earth. Science and engineering exist for a reason. Claiming that
nothing is certain so anything is possible in the face of all objective
evidence is an ethos I suppose, but ignores centuries of scientific
progress. With this approach I can't really prove than I'm not the
reincarnated Henry VIII.



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Streaming - Spotify
------------------------------------------------------------------------
garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[ralphpnj]

garym wrote:
> ....With this approach I can't really prove than I'm not the
> reincarnated Henry VIII.

So about those wives.....



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

netchord wrote:
> something you cannot possibly say w/ any certainty since you have not
> heard my system either before or after the config change, and with my
> ears, and my own mental "processing."
>
> all you can say is that some theoretical system, with a theoretical
> listener, might sound the same.

True. We can not say that the subjectively perceived sound quality
hasn't improved. All we can say is that the music being sent to your DAC
hasn't changed.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[netchord]

Julf wrote:
> True. We can not say that the subjectively perceived sound quality
> hasn't improved. All we can say is that the music being sent to your DAC
> hasn't changed.

you may be able to say the -files- have not changed.

the music definitely has.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

netchord wrote:
> you may be able to say the -files- have not changed.

If the files haven't changed, the music being sent to your DAC hasn't
changed, unless aliens are using their transmogrification beam.

> the music definitely has.

You don't know that.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Mnyb]

Just try the player buffer if you just remove the cable while playing
you have 30 second off music in the player and now you hear it without
any server at all ;)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[netchord]

Julf wrote:
>
>
>
> You don't know that.

sure i do. music is not defined by bits.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

netchord wrote:
> sure i do. music is not defined by bits.

You can only know what you think you hear - unless you verify it by
objective means. Which you don't want to do. So we are back where we
started - no way of knowing if there was a change in the actual sound
waves in your room - and every reason to think there wasn't.

Doesn't seem to be much point to keep rehashing this, I think this
thread can be summarized as "Move on! Nothing to see here!".



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[probedb]

netchord wrote:
> sure i do. music is not defined by bits.

It is in this context. Everything on your PC is defined by bits.



'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[cliveb]

netchord wrote:
> you may be able to say the -files- have not changed.
>
> the music definitely has.
What has definitely changed is what you hear - your *perception* of the
soundfield generated by the system.
After you switched off iTunes integration (not really expecting any
difference), you did indeed perceive a difference.
And so quite reasonably you sought an explanation.
It seems logical to you to assume the difference must be due to some
change made to the system, and you homed in on the fact that iTunes
integration has been switched off.

But there are other explanations for why you perceive a difference in
what you hear. Human hearing varies day-to-day, even minute-to-minute,
and is affected by all kinds of external factors. It is overwhelmingly
more likely that you initially heard a difference due to some other
factor (such as your physiological state at the time) rather than any
change to the stereo system. But because you have internally correlated
it with the change to iTunes integration, that belief has become part of
your mental world model.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
------------------------------------------------------------------------
cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[netchord]

cliveb wrote:
> It is overwhelmingly more likely that you initially heard a difference
> due to some other factor (such as your physiological state at the time)
> rather than any change to the stereo system. But because you have
> internally correlated it with the change to iTunes integration, that
> belief has become part of your mental world model.

not at all- i'm open to alternate explanations, but i resist the idea
that i'm just imagining it, based on some unknown, and unknowable bias.
i'm an educated listener, with a former career performing live, acoustic
music in real concert halls. we don't listen with our ears, we listen
with our brains, our souls, our hearts, and bodies.

the belief in this forum that "bits are bits" and the zeal with which
most posters here insist on debunking something that can't be debunked
(ie, human beings experience the same music differently from one
another) borders frankly on the religious.

it's off-putting, and drives people away from both this forum, and the
hobby in general.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[get.amped]

I don't think everyone here believes that we all experience music in the
same way. I'm inclined to believe that you are hearing a difference.
It's the "why" that is somewhat confounding. And while our enjoyment of
music is highly subjective and individual, the mechanism by which
digital audio files are communicated to a device which converts them to
a signal that can be reproduced by analog amplifiers and speakers is
not. And it cannot be because digital data transmitted on a TCP/IP based
network *must* be bit perfect. When it's not, the packets of bits are
re-transmitted until they are perfect or the communication fails. If
that were not true, I could not be typing this message to you, could not
send it to the forum, and you could not read it. And the Internet would
not work. And my home network would not work. And every business network
would not work. I've been an IT professional for 30 years and know only
too well what happens when networks fail.

But what you are describing is not a network failure. Your network
works; bits are accurately communicated between your server and your
DAC. Either those are the same bits or they aren't. If they aren't the
same, why? If they are the same, then either 1) your analog set up is
different or 2) you are different. You made the proposition that iTunes
integration correlates with the difference and the question is, how? In
what way would iTunes affect what bits of data reach your DAC? And if it
doesn't, which according to people more knowledgeable about the subject
is the case, then what other change in the digital domain would affect
what bits reach your DAC?

But "bits are bits" is not a belief-system. It is an empirically
demonstrated quality intrinsic to the very fundamental operation of your
(and everyone's) network. It is true whether you accept it or not. It is
not alchemy, astrology, numerology, or some form of magic. The physics
and mathematics of how networks function is well understood and
documented in mind-numbing detail. So, yes, "bits are bits."



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.9.0 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
------------------------------------------------------------------------
get.amped's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10022
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[netchord]

get.amped wrote:
>
>
> But what you are describing is not a network failure. Your network
> works; bits are accurately communicated between your server and your
> DAC. Either those are the same bits or they aren't.

there's a 3rd possibility- the same bits are being "interpreted", or
communicated, differently by some of the devices on the network. i
postulated iTunes integration, or lack there of, might have some,
previously unexamined effect, perhaps a minuscule increase in jitter, or
some other digital artifact- transmitting music bits is not the same as
send text over a network.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[get.amped]

netchord wrote:
> there's a 3rd possibility- the same bits are being "interpreted", or
> communicated, differently by some of the devices on the network. i
> postulated iTunes integration, or lack there of, might have some,
> previously unexamined effect, perhaps a minuscule increase in jitter, or
> some other digital artifact- transmitting music bits is not the same as
> send text over a network.

This is simply not true. Once they hit the network interface they are
exactly the same as sending text (or images or program code or
*anything*) over the network. Again, digital music files are not special
because they contain data that gets converted at the destination to
analog representations of sound waves. Jitter is a question of how that
data is assembled and handled by the DAC. It has nothing to do with
TCP/IP network communications. If you don't get the data from the server
to the DAC, you will see rebuffering issues or disconnections, not
subtle variations in sound quality.

If there are digital artifacts, they are either present in the encoded
digital file, meaning they were introduced during the analog to digital
conversion, or they are a consequence of how the DAC has decoded the
data it receives. They are not introduced by the transmission of the
data over your network. The network protocols which allow any of this to
work have checksums and error correction to verify that the data sent is
the data received and do so on relatively small amounts of data at a
time. Most home networks use a default Maximum Transmission Unit (MTU)
of 1500 bytes. A typical ethernet packet, including headers and data is
1530 bytes. Every one of those packets is guaranteed by the
specification of the protocol to arrive at its destination complete and
in sequential order. If an error occurs, the packet is re-transmitted.

It's possible that software on the server (i.e. transcoding on the
server) modifies those files *before* transmitting them. Maybe the files
were being transcoded before and they are not now. I don't know. But I
am 100% certain that "the network" i.e. device interfaces, routers and
switches are not the place to look for any sound quality differences of
the type you are describing.



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.9.0 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
------------------------------------------------------------------------
get.amped's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10022
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[kidstypike]

netchord wrote:
> ....we don't listen with our ears, we listen with our brains, our
> souls, our hearts, and bodies.

I think that's the problem, try using your lugs like the rest of us...



kidstypike
1x SB3 - 1x Boom - 1x (Squeezebox) Radio - 2x Touch - 1x piCorePlayer
------------------------------------------------------------------------
kidstypike's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10436
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

netchord wrote:
> human beings experience the same music differently from one another

Nobody is arguing against that, quite the opposite. All we are saying is
that not only do human beings experience the same music differently from
one another, but they also experience the same music differently from
one time to another.

You might be very, very good at listening to music, but this is not
about the ability to listen. This is about understanding the realities
about digital music reproduction. Bits *are* bits. The number 10 is
always the number 10, not sometimes 11, sometimes 9. There can be noise
and jitter in the DAC, but that noise and jitter is not affected by how
the bits get to the DAC.

> it's off-putting, and drives people away from both this forum, and the
> hobby in general.

No, what is off-putting, and what drives people away, is all the
superstition, hearsay, folklore and simply false information propagated
by people who don't understand the technology make all sorts of claims
based on unverified subjective sensations - and then refuse to verify
them objectively.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[RonM]

It's not really surprising that the same themes keep arising around the
questions of digital sound capture/transmission/decoding and sound
perception. Some of the facts can seem counter-intuitive to many, and
it can be a struggle to assimilate the information.

I think there are two fundamental issues here: a) the nature of digital
sound encoding vs analog encoding and b) the nature and malleability of
perception. These have been addressed by others more cogently than can
I, but here is my perspective.

It's instructive to think about the differences between telegraphs and
early telephones, which can be understood as digital and analog devices
respectively. A telegraph is a kind of binary device. There are dots
and there are dashes (and the spaces in-between). The signal is very
nearly impervious to poor transmission conditions, as the dot/dash
signal can be easily picked out from very substantial background noise;
when decoded, the error rate will be practically zero (assuming a
trained operator) regardless of noise on the line. The resulting
typescript will always be the same, regardless of operator.

An early telephone, on the other hand, was very much impacted by
transmission noise. The analog signal (the words being spoken at one
end, and transmitted as an analog waveform) can be masked or altered
substantially by line conditions, with great risk of data loss, and
certainly loss of audio quality.

In the case of digital sound, the data is binary in the same way that
the telegraph is binary. "Noise" is largely irrelevant, the digital
packets are managed in a way that information is NOT lost during
transmission. An exact copy of the digitized data is made available by
the transport mechanism to the DAC, regardless of transmission
conditions. Of course, the sound quality is impacted by the DAC, the
amplifer/preamp and the speakers, but the DAC will get the same
information to work with regardless of how the digital packets are
provided to it. This is not true for an analog process.

Perception is a vast topic, and one that has been covered well here. I
am by profession a psychologist, and familiar with (but not remotely an
expert on) the literature on perception and memory, and how our
experience of things like sound is very much mediated by factors other
than the energy impacting our ears in the form of sound waves.
Experience is CONSTRUCTED by our brains; the bottom line is that we
should never trust "eyewitness" (or "earwitness") accounts of anything
unless corroborated by hard data, if we're actually interested in the
truth.

It's why double-blind tests are essential if we are to trust anyone
claiming to hear a difference between two signals.

R.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

RonM wrote:
> Experience is CONSTRUCTED by our brains; the bottom line is that we
> should never trust "eyewitness" (or "earwitness") accounts of anything
> unless corroborated by hard data, if we're actually interested in the
> truth.
>
> It's why double-blind tests are essential if we are to trust anyone
> claiming to hear a difference between two signals.

Could we please make a poster stating this, and make it mandatory to
keep it on the wall of any audiophile listening room?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Steve Baumgarten]

First, your post is excellent, informative and well explained end to end. But in particular your discussion of the difference between analog and digital transmission methods reminded me of this wonderful short video essay about Claude Shannon who basically pioneered the analog to digital paradigm shift:

http://vimeo.com/98345492

It was the change that no-one saw coming: the idea that we could take a book, a painting or a song and send it through cables and wires and even thin air to the other end of the world - and it would be identical on the other side. But this idea underpins everything about the Information Age we live in.
How did we make such a mind bending transition into the digital world? And how does it work? It turns out it's all based on a concept that is surprisingly beautiful in its simplicity. This short video essay explores what that idea is and tells you about the man who figured it all out.

About 6 minutes long and highly recommended even for (especially for) non-techies.

SBB

> On Jul 11, 2014, at 1:27 PM, RonM <RonM.6h3o8n-NUepA2SMhDQqspMVqqL2D+4xXEVPTSb/***@public.gmane.orgm> wrote:
>
>
> It's not really surprising that the same themes keep arising around the
> questions of digital sound capture/transmission/decoding and sound
> perception. Some of the facts can seem counter-intuitive to many, and
> it can be a struggle to assimilate the information.
>
> I think there are two fundamental issues here: a) the nature of digital
> sound encoding vs analog encoding and b) the nature and malleability of
> perception. These have been addressed by others more cogently than can
> I, but here is my perspective.
>
> It's instructive to think about the differences between telegraphs and
> early telephones, which can be understood as digital and analog devices
> respectively. A telegraph is a kind of binary device. There are dots
> and there are dashes (and the spaces in-between). The signal is very
> nearly impervious to poor transmission conditions, as the dot/dash
> signal can be easily picked out from very substantial background noise;
> when decoded, the error rate will be practically zero (assuming a
> trained operator) regardless of noise on the line. The resulting
> typescript will always be the same, regardless of operator.
>
> An early telephone, on the other hand, was very much impacted by
> transmission noise. The analog signal (the words being spoken at one
> end, and transmitted as an analog waveform) can be masked or altered
> substantially by line conditions, with great risk of data loss, and
> certainly loss of audio quality.
>
> In the case of digital sound, the data is binary in the same way that
> the telegraph is binary. "Noise" is largely irrelevant, the digital
> packets are managed in a way that information is NOT lost during
> transmission. An exact copy of the digitized data is made available by
> the transport mechanism to the DAC, regardless of transmission
> conditions. Of course, the sound quality is impacted by the DAC, the
> amplifer/preamp and the speakers, but the DAC will get the same
> information to work with regardless of how the digital packets are
> provided to it. This is not true for an analog process.
>
> Perception is a vast topic, and one that has been covered well here. I
> am by profession a psychologist, and familiar with (but not remotely an
> expert on) the literature on perception and memory, and how our
> experience of things like sound is very much mediated by factors other
> than the energy impacting our ears in the form of sound waves.
> Experience is CONSTRUCTED by our brains; the bottom line is that we
> should never trust "eyewitness" (or "earwitness") accounts of anything
> unless corroborated by hard data, if we're actually interested in the
> truth.
>
> It's why double-blind tests are essential if we are to trust anyone
> claiming to hear a difference between two signals.
>
> R.
>
>
>
> LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
> Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
> speakers
> Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
> Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
> Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
> Radio (wifi) - home office
> Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
> UE Radio - awaiting deployment
> Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
> Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788
>
> _______________________________________________
> audiophiles mailing list
> audiophiles-***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
>

[toby10]

netchord wrote:
> ..... i'm open to alternate explanations.....

Obviously….. anything but facts, reason, logic, common sense, physics
and science


------------------------------------------------------------------------
toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

toby10 wrote:
> Obviously….. anything but facts, reason, logic, common sense, physics
> and science

Isn't that what "alternate" means? :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[ralphpnj]

Steve Baumgarten wrote:
> First, your post is excellent, informative and well explained end to
> end. But in particular your discussion of the difference between analog
> and digital transmission methods reminded me of this wonderful short
> video essay about Claude Shannon who basically pioneered the analog to
> digital paradigm shift:
>
> http://vimeo.com/98345492
>
> It was the change that no-one saw coming: the idea that we could take a
> book, a painting or a song and send it through cables and wires and even
> thin air to the other end of the world - and it would be identical on
> the other side. But this idea underpins everything about the Information
> Age we live in.
> How did we make such a mind bending transition into the digital world?
> And how does it work? It turns out it's all based on a concept that is
> surprisingly beautiful in its simplicity. This short video essay
> explores what that idea is and tells you about the man who figured it
> all out.
>
> About 6 minutes long and highly recommended even for (especially for)
> non-techies.
>
> SBB
>
> Thank you for that link to a very informative video. That video should
> be required viewing to anyone thinking of buying a $500 digital cable of
> any type (USB, coax, network cable, etc.).



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

Steve Baumgarten wrote:
> wonderful short video essay about Claude Shannon

Whenever I see the old Bell Labs (now Alcatel-Lucent) Murray Hill
building I feel a sense of profound loss.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[ralphpnj]

Julf wrote:
> Whenever I see the old Bell Labs (now Alcatel-Lucent) Murray Hill
> building I feel a sense of profound loss.

Not to worry since the Bell Labs Murray Hill building has been replaced
with this image:

16145


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: apple-headquarters-one-infinite-loop-photo-thanks-to-flickr-user.jpg|
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16145|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Not to worry since the Bell Labs Murray Hill building has been replaced
> with this image:
>
> 16145

That is exactly what I am sad about. Bell labs came up with an amazing
amount of wonderful technology, without evert managing to turn it into
commercially viable products. Apple is exactly the opposite.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[ralphpnj]

Julf wrote:
> That is exactly what I am sad about. Bell labs came up with an amazing
> amount of wonderful technology, without evert managing to turn it into
> commercially viable products. Apple is exactly the opposite.

Don't be sad - there's an app for that!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Don't be sad - there's an app for that!

Ah, yes, it is always nice to be able to be sad in a trendy hipster way.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[lrossouw]

netchord wrote:
> something you cannot possibly say w/ any certainty since you have not
> heard my system either before or after the config change, and with my
> ears, and my own mental "processing."
>
> all you can say is that some theoretical system, with a theoretical
> listener, might sound the same.

You are stating that in the digital domain a change unrelated to the
audio data has effected the sound. This implies a digital signal has
been changed because of one setting you have changed (unrelated to the
audio data). If this were true then computers would not be possible at
all. This I can say with certainty.

I've head that if you leave Excel open on your server the sound is much
more harsh and 'calculated'. However if you leave Adobe paint shop open
it results in a more airy, clear and creative feel to the music.



Louis
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/lrossouw)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

netchord wrote:
> what was the expectation, or perception bias in this instance?

It sounds very much like a lot of other similar cases I have
experienced. Someone makes a small change that really shouldn't affect
the sound at all (such as rearranging the record collection in the shelf
next to the hi-fi rack), and suddenly hears a very clear improvement
(improvements seem much more frequent than deteriorations) in sound
quality. When actually verifying the observations objectively, it turns
out there is no difference. Explanation? Most likely that just the
action of fiddling around with your sound system makes you more
attentive and perceptive about the sound. Biases are not necessarily
conscious ones. You can be biased towards hearing things differently
even if you don't consciously expect a change.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[lrossouw]

Another way to think about it is that you not only listen with your
ears, but that your head processes it. You cannot know what you are
really hearing unless you remove potential biases in your head. One way
to do this is to do double blind testing. This means someone plays you
music from the two sources in question. You cannot know which is which,
and also they cannot know as they may guide you subconsciously. If you
can statistically differentiate between the two sources, say more than
15 out of 20 or whatever, then you may have a case that something has
changed. There are guides setting out the methodology on hydrogenaudio
for example.

See this study done by a forum member here:
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2014/06/24-bit-vs-16-bit-audio-test-part-ii.html.
Not the exactly the same format as described above, but still has good
conclusions. In this case they asked people to listen to *different*
files and people couldn't tell the difference. In your case you are
listening to the same files...



Louis
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/lrossouw)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Mnyb]

Btw how does the itunes intregration handle sondcheck tags apples
varinat of replaygain tags ?

Did you also changed some other settings ?

The genius idea behind squeezeboxes is that they are truly server
agnostic if everything is properly configured as long as the server can
fill the player buffer you will always have the exact same result in
every case . There is simply no mechanism at work that could change the
actual sound .

I recomend to have some hdcd or dts or ac3 files around then you can
simply check if you have bit perfect transfer , in case you messed up
some settings .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[lrossouw]

Mnyb wrote:
> Btw how does the itunes intregration handle sondcheck tags apples
> varinat of replaygain tags ?
>

I wasn't certain but also thought it may be a vector and suggested it.
I know that the server will use soundcheck data from the file if no
replaygain tags are found. I'm not sure that itunes always writes
soundcheck to the files. I suggested that if it didn't the volume
could change as the files, being directly played now would not have the
replay gain applied.



Louis
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/lrossouw)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

netchord wrote:
> i'm really hearing it

How did you verify that?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[probedb]

netchord wrote:
> i'm really hearing it; just don't have an explanation for it. to be
> sure, i don't really need an explanation, but it is interesting.

....sorry couldn't stop laughing....you are playing the same files, they
are on the same disc, iTunes integration, I assume, just means it's
using the iTunes database for meta data etc. It isn't playing the files
differently......at all.

Next you'll be telling us you renamed the files and moved them to
another drive and the change in sound was night and day.



'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

probedb wrote:
> Next you'll be telling us you renamed the files and moved them to
> another drive and the change in sound was night and day.

This is the "audiophile" subforum after all... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[get.amped]

Perhaps the "power" event could have had some effect. Going from dirty,
consistently sub-optimal voltage power to clean(er), proper voltage
power could conceivably have an affect on the devices reproducing the
music, mostly in the form of lower current draw. But it's a stretch and
does not necessarily correlate with what occurred.



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.9.0 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
------------------------------------------------------------------------
get.amped's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10022
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[darrenyeats]

Strictly speaking you can't imagine you hear something. That the hearer
hears the difference is undeniable ... the only question is why.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

darrenyeats wrote:
> That the hearer really hears the difference is undeniable ... the only
> question is why.

Indeed.

> The problem is ubiquitous but it causes most havoc when judging
> potential differences that are subtle.

Yes. Much easier when it is clear that there is no rational physical
reason for the difference.

> Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

'How to remove tapatalk signatures'
(http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=230937)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[darrenyeats]

Julf wrote:
>
> 'How to remove tapatalk signatures'
> (http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=230937)
Disabled just for you!



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788

[Julf]

darrenyeats wrote:
> Disabled just for you!

Appreciated! :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101788