[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: Meditations on the limitations of hearing & listening.

[Archimago]

A few thoughts on the physiological and cognitive domains of
hearing/listening.

Hopefully put together in one place some of the discussions we have had
here and maybe anticipate some of the "time domain" stuff which we might
see down the line with Meridian and MQA... Strangely the MQA stuff seems
to have gone rather quiet despite the claims of a "revolution" at hand!

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/10/musings-meditations-on-limitations-of.html

Have a great weekend everyone!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Wombat]

The limitations of 44.1kHz are often taken down to simple. It is capable
of much more. Especialy this post is cool as part of an interesting
thread:
https://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=108987&view=findpost&p=905590



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> A few thoughts on the physiological and cognitive domains of
> hearing/listening.
>
> Hopefully put together in one place some of the discussions we have had
> here and maybe anticipate some of the "time domain" stuff which we might
> see down the line with Meridian and MQA... Strangely the MQA stuff seems
> to have gone rather quiet despite the claims of a "revolution" at hand!
>
> http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/10/musings-meditations-on-limitations-of.html
>
> Have a great weekend everyone!

"As humans, we also recognize that we are limited in every conceivable
dimension and sensory modality". Well, yes... some of us... But I guess
we will be the first up against the wall when the "revolution" actually
arrives...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Once again some very informative and entertaining musings. Thank you
Archimago!

As I read the piece I found myself musing about how much of advertising,
and a closely related way high end audio, is based on many of these
known cognitive biases. There is a good reason why a new car salesperson
always seems to have a child in college/sick parent/health
problem/insurance issue/etc. closely resembling the exact situation the
buyer is experiencing. Remember that it can rather easy to con someone
if you know the right buttons push and audiophiles seem to have lots and
lots of very big buttons.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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[Julf]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Remember that it can rather easy to con someone if you know the right
> buttons push and audiophiles seem to have lots and lots of very big
> buttons.

They can't help it - we are all genetically programmed for it. It takes
serious, hard intellectual effort to overrule your primitive instincts.
Or, as someone said, "Once you know what it is you want to be true,
instinct is a very useful device
for enabling you to know that it is".



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[d6jg]

Slightly OT but down here in the basement do you guys ever listen to any
music or do you just theorise about the ways you could?
Hardly ever see any of you upstairs. Bring your copies of Sgt Peppers up
with you and we can see whose is the most scratched / had the most
joints rolled on it ;)



*Vortexbox LMS 7.8 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
*Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 ->
Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B&W P7
*Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755
-> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
*Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
*Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones
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[ralphpnj]

d6jg wrote:
> Slightly OT but down here in the basement do you guys ever listen to any
> music or do you just theorise about the ways you could?
> Hardly ever see any of you upstairs. Bring your copies of Sgt Peppers up
> with you and we can see whose is the most scratched / had the most
> joints rolled on it ;)

The last line of signature is a link to my last.fm page which will very
clearly show you that I listen to lots and lots of music. And I don't
believe that there is even one gate fold LP in my collection that
doesn't have a trace of weed on it, with "Bitches Brew" quite possibly
having enough traces on it to fill a joint.

By the way, the only thing even more foolish and juvenile than the
discussions about audio on an audio forum are the discussions about
music, especially "top ten" lists. Besides, as a long time jazz fan I
have had my fill of reading about how f*&king great "Kind of Blue" is.
Believe it of not, there are actually a few other jazz recordings out
there.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
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[d6jg]

ralphpnj wrote:
> The last line of signature is a link to my last.fm page which will very
> clearly show you that I listen to lots and lots of music. And I don't
> believe that there is even one gate fold LP in my collection that
> doesn't have a trace of weed on it, with "Bitches Brew" quite possibly
> having enough traces on it to fill a joint.
>
> By the way, the only thing even more foolish and juvenile than the
> discussions about audio on an audio forum are the discussions about
> music, especially "top ten" lists. Besides, as a long time jazz fan I
> have had my fill of reading about how f*&king great "Kind of Blue" is.
> Believe it of not, there are actually a few other jazz recordings out
> there.

I don't think I have ever tried to compile a top ten list. I don't think
I could. Kind of Blue would come up for consideration but then so would
Sketches of Spain and also In A Silent Way. Then of course I'd have to
consider Headhunters and Blue Train, A Love Supreme and also Ornette
Coleman's Shape of Jazz to Come and all manor of other stuff loosely
called Jazz. I'd have to have some Rock and also some Blues - quite a
lot of each actually - so while I was deciding what I should have on my
Desert Island iPod (other portable music players are available) I'd
probably die of starvation first!



*Vortexbox LMS 7.8 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
*Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 ->
Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B&W P7
*Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755
-> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
*Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
*Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones
*Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 ->
Wharfedale Modus Cubes
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[ralphpnj]

d6jg wrote:
> I don't think I have ever tried to compile a top ten list. I don't think
> I could. Kind of Blue would come up for consideration but then so would
> Sketches of Spain and also In A Silent Way. Then of course I'd have to
> consider Headhunters and Blue Train, A Love Supreme and also Ornette
> Coleman's Shape of Jazz to Come and all manor of other stuff loosely
> called Jazz. I'd have to have some Rock and also some Blues - quite a
> lot of each actually - so while I was deciding what I should have on my
> Desert Island iPod (other portable music players are available) I'd
> probably die of starvation first!

That's just one problem with top ten lists. My problem with these lists
is that they tend to reduce music into a few neat little packages when
there is so much more to music, in all it's forms and genres. Sure all
the recordings you mentioned are great and worth of inclusion on any
list, but what about all of the many other recordings that make up the
world of music. I fear that these lists also run the risk of turning a
living music into a dead music, a music with no place to go but
backwards, much like what has become of, for the vast majority of
people, classical music. It's Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms and not
much else. I really don't want people to think that jazz died 56 years
ago when Kind of Blue was recorded nor would I want them to think rock
music died in 1967 with the recording of Sgt. Pepper's. I like being
inclusive rather than exclusive. Which of course means that I would need
a really big Desert Island iPod.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[d6jg]

There is no such thing as bad music only music that I like a little less
than other music.
You are spot on about the iPod - it's why I'd take my iPhone and make
sure I had at least a 3G signal and listen via VPN to anything and
everything.



*Vortexbox LMS 7.8 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
*Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 ->
Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B&W P7
*Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755
-> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
*Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
*Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones
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[ralphpnj]

d6jg wrote:
> There is no such thing as bad music only music that I like a little less
> than other music.
> You are spot on about the iPod - it's why I'd take my iPhone and make
> sure I had at least a 3G signal and listen via VPN to anything and
> everything.

Many of the apps on the iPhone use the built in GPS aka "location
services" to determine your location which renders the vpn/ips location
moot. So if you want to stream a blacked out sporting event via a
legitimate premium app, you can't. And if you turn off location services
then the app will not work or not work properly. Of course the VPN will
still work for web based streaming. I don't know if the same thing
applies for android phones and tablets since I don't have any. But
iPhones and iPads both allow apps to use the built-in GPS to determine
your and the phone's location.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[d6jg]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Many of the apps on the iPhone use the built in GPS aka "location
> services" to determine your location which renders the vpn/ips location
> moot. So if you want to stream a blacked out sporting event via a
> legitimate premium app, you can't. And if you turn off location services
> then the app will not work or not work properly. Of course the VPN will
> still work for web based streaming. I don't know if the same thing
> applies for android phones and tablets since I don't have any. But
> iPhones and iPads both allow apps to use the built-in GPS to determine
> your and the phone's location.

A VPN works fine with LMS with Triode's BBC & Spotify plugins but you
may well be right about smartphone location services.



*Vortexbox LMS 7.8 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
*Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 ->
Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B&W P7
*Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755
-> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
*Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
*Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones
*Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 ->
Wharfedale Modus Cubes
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[ralphpnj]

d6jg wrote:
> A VPN works fine with LMS with Triode's BBC & Spotify plugins but you
> may well be right about smartphone location services.

Most likely because both the VPN and LMS are running a computer without
a built in GPS and therefore are using the VPN's ip address to determine
location. As for smartphones, tablets and other GPS enabled devices the
situation is very different. Just google it and you will find lots of
information.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[adamdea]

I just attempted to post a comment on your. website under the latest
musing- not sure it got through. I just wanted to say that I'm afraid
you may have committed the sin of Kunchur in mixing up the intersample
interval of 16/44 with the inter sample resolution.
when you said
"Note that a 10μs time period corresponds to a 100kHz sampling
rate, and so 5μs is 200kHz sampling (in contrast, CD 44.1kHz is
22.7μs)..."
well not really, it only corresponds with the inter sample interval, but
so what?

The time resolution of cd is about 60 picoseconds (1/(44,100 *2^16*
2Pi)). Kunchur is just wrong about this and his experiment shows nothing
about the need for more than 16/44 even as a matter of theory. WE have
to keep reminding ourselves that sonic events occur over time. You could
make a sonic event start -and- stop within a 23 microsecond period if
you tried. So measuring the amplitude at the sample intervals is enough
to tell you what happened imbetween.
Of course I agree with what you say under
"Does this suggest then that we need at least 100-200kHz sampling rate
digitally to ensure we capture everything?", but in truth the supposed
problem just doesn't even get off the ground. I'm no expert of course,
but this was comprehensively explained by JJ over on HA at the time.


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[Julf]

Ouch. Can't believe I missed that when I read the blog posting. Yes,
Kunchur is simply wrong in the stuff about sample rates, and basically
just shows a lack of understanding of Nyquist-Shannon. Archimago, please
don't propagate his error.

Let's reiterate what Shannon-nyquist implies - as long as the sample
rate is more than twice the highest frequency component in the input
signal, the sampled signal can be reconstructed *perfectly* - not just
in amplitude, but also timing. This of course assumes infinite precision
- with limited resolution, you get the formula adamdea posted.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

I likes the blog post , but I to actually thinks that there is no need
for 100kHz sample rates in consumer derivera formats .I'm even more
convinced now since I tried your test way back and also did some of my
own test files .

One of the of topic in the comments is about the need for a better DSD
file format .
I have a better idea there is no need for DSD as a consumer delivery
format at all :) and it is solved in practice ,there is hardly any DSD
only content worth listening to ( most music is aviable in good non DSD
formats ).

And a good point you implicitly make is that actually developing
products with sighted subjective testing as the main developing tool is
doomed to failure . The link to that CA post about a dude just trying to
tune a cross over by ear only is telling .
And there are whole product lines developed on superstition and
cognitive bias and ofcourse reviewed without any measurement whatsoever
by TAS or 6 moon . I good reason for more objective science in
audiophile circles is to actually produce better products ! In practice
weed out the weird ones

One of my personal fools errand in all discussion here is to get more
people to understand how much product development is crippled by the
audiophile mindset . Even working good products with sensible measured
data can have elements of cargo cult designs to them . The products we
can choose from are for this reason in many cases both expensive and
anachronistic .


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--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Julf]

Mnyb wrote:
> One of my personal fools errand in all discussion here is to get more
> people to understand how much product development is crippled by the
> audiophile mindset . Even working good products with sensible measured
> data can have elements of cargo cult designs to them . The products we
> can choose from are for this reason in many cases both expensive and
> anachronistic .

To quote one of my smarter friends: "People engage with music for a huge
spectrum of reasons, some more consistent with the artist's motivations
and intentions than others. There absolutely is a "wacko nosebleed
contingent" of "audio enthusiasts" for whom reason has long-since left
the building and who are engaged in delusional imaginings about things
and effects which cannot possibly exist in either this world or the
next. This behavior is strongly encouraged by a relatively small segment
of the equipment suppliers whose guile and cunning would make PT Barnum
die of envy. But "disgustibus non disputantum" - those two communities
have agreed as consenting adults to reciprocate with each other to their
apparent mutual satisfaction, and as long as they don't scare the horses
and exhibit a modicum of decorum, the hyperventilated ravings in the
audio rags can be quite amusing. To the degree, however, that the
success of this market manipulation flows downstream such that it
impacts the availability of high-quality, rationally-priced audio kit
for those of less blingful means, that becomes a real problem."



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

Julf wrote:
> To quote one of my smarter friends: "People engage with music for a huge
> spectrum of reasons, some more consistent with the artist's motivations
> and intentions than others. There absolutely is a "wacko nosebleed
> contingent" of "audio enthusiasts" for whom reason has long-since left
> the building and who are engaged in delusional imaginings about things
> and effects which cannot possibly exist in either this world or the
> next. This behavior is strongly encouraged by a relatively small segment
> of the equipment suppliers whose guile and cunning would make PT Barnum
> die of envy. But "disgustibus non disputantum" - those two communities
> have agreed as consenting adults to reciprocate with each other to their
> apparent mutual satisfaction, and as long as they don't scare the horses
> and exhibit a modicum of decorum, the hyperventilated ravings in the
> audio rags can be quite amusing. To the degree, however, that the
> success of this market manipulation flows downstream such that it
> impacts the availability of high-quality, rationally-priced audio kit
> for those of less blingful means, that becomes a real problem."

Yes like gold plated biwiring terminals on every passive loudspeaker ?
Even quite modest ones , yes now you can sell two sets of expensive
speaker cables :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Julf]

Mnyb wrote:
> Yes like gold plated biwiring terminals on every passive loudspeaker ?
> Even quite modest ones , yes now you can sell two sets of expensive
> speaker cables :)

Or, as you mentioned, the totally unnecessary DSD capability (that often
requires petty much doubling the complexity of the DAC and makes music
management a nightmare).



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Julf wrote:
> To quote one of my smarter friends: "People engage with music for a huge
> spectrum of reasons, some more consistent with the artist's motivations
> and intentions than others. There absolutely is a "wacko nosebleed
> contingent" of "audio enthusiasts" for whom reason has long-since left
> the building and who are engaged in delusional imaginings about things
> and effects which cannot possibly exist in either this world or the
> next. This behavior is strongly encouraged by a relatively small segment
> of the equipment suppliers whose guile and cunning would make PT Barnum
> die of envy. But "disgustibus non disputantum" - those two communities
> have agreed as consenting adults to reciprocate with each other to their
> apparent mutual satisfaction, and as long as they don't scare the horses
> and exhibit a modicum of decorum, the hyperventilated ravings in the
> audio rags can be quite amusing. To the degree, however, that the
> success of this market manipulation flows downstream such that it
> impacts the availability of high-quality, rationally-priced audio kit
> for those of less blingful means, that becomes a real problem."

I think that this is good time to once restate how the world of consumer
audio and the world of high end consumer audio revolve around completely
different suns.

While the high end audio world wrings their collective hands over things
like DSD vs. PCM, standard resolution vs. high resolution, USB vs
asynchronous USB, flac vs. wav, etc. the consumer audio world listens to
mp3s of dynamically compressed music on their smartphones streamed via
Bluetooth to a set of Beats headphones, that is when their not listening
to low bit rate mp3 streams from Pandora. Once the gray haired middle
aged old farts who are the present day high end audio consumers die off
so will high end audio. Consumer audio long ago won the war it's just
that no one has informed the high end audio world of this simple fact.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

ralphpnj wrote:
> While the high end audio world wrings their collective hands over things
> like DSD vs. PCM, standard resolution vs. high resolution, USB vs
> asynchronous USB, flac vs. wav, etc. the consumer audio world listens to
> mp3s of dynamically compressed music on their smartphones streamed via
> Bluetooth to a set of Beats headphones, that is when their not listening
> to low bit rate mp3 streams from Pandora. Once the gray haired middle
> aged old farts who are the present day high end audio consumers die off
> so will high end audio. Consumer audio long ago won the war it's just
> that no one has informed the high end audio world of this simple fact.

I mostly agree, but then there are the vinyl hipsters (who will soon
move on to cassettes), but also a significant group of young, clueful
people who actually listen to flac and high-bitrate lossy formats, on
reasonable gear, but would never dream of paying $100 for a cable. They
are the ones who suffer from the effects of the audiophile silliness in
the marketplace.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mnyb]

Julf wrote:
> I mostly agree, but then there are the vinyl hipsters (who will soon
> move on to cassettes), but also a significant group of young, clueful
> people who actually listen to flac and high-bitrate lossy formats, on
> reasonable gear, but would never dream of paying $100 for a cable. They
> are the ones who suffer from the effects of the audiophile silliness in
> the marketplace.

Yes there are some younger folks caringbfor good sound and they do
suffer . Hopefully they can buy semi pro gear , thats actually a good
option and not to expesive .

Another one the paradigm of passive speakers have lingered far to long
in audiophile circles . Its there to promotenexcessive gear swapping of
multiple separate boxes...

Amplification is a solved problem , put it in the speakers and you can
start to adress the real problems of passive filters



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

Mnyb wrote:
> Another one the paradigm of passive speakers have lingered far to long
> in audiophile circles . Its there to promote excessive gear swapping of
> multiple separate boxes...
>
> Amplification is a solved problem , put it in the speakers and you can
> start to adress the real problems of passive filters

For the general and pro markets that will be taken care of by the
superior sound quality achievable by DSP and active systems.
Unfortunately it seems the high end market isn't really about sound
quality.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mnyb]

The ligth in the tunnel is usually the train , but the consumer market
is actually promoting more active speakers . They start to apear some
the cost a little bit more than the usual bluetoth speaker ,midfi for
normal people :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ralphpnj]

Julf wrote:
> I mostly agree, but then there are the vinyl hipsters (who will soon
> move on to cassettes), but also a significant group of young, clueful
> people who actually listen to flac and high-bitrate lossy formats, on
> reasonable gear, but would never dream of paying $100 for a cable. They
> are the ones who suffer from the effects of the audiophile silliness in
> the marketplace.

While that may be true I don't agree that there is any noticeable effect
of audiophile silliness on the consumer audio marketplace. Only the high
audio consumer marketplace sees the effects of audiophile silliness.
About the worst effect that audiophile silliness has had in the consumer
audio marketplace is the sales of Monster cables (all the other high end
audio cable manufacturers have no presence in the consumer audio
marketplace) and surge protectors. Bluetooth speakers and Beats
headphones dominate the consumer audio marketplace.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[atrocity]

ralphpnj wrote:
> About the worst effect that audiophile silliness has had in the consumer
> audio marketplace is the sales of Monster cables (all the other high end
> audio cable manufacturers have no presence in the consumer audio
> marketplace) and surge protectors.

I used to have my doubts about surge protectors...until I had a surge.
It's been 20 years or more now, so I'm not sure I remember everything
that got cooked:'

2-Shortwave radios
1-Scanner
2-VCRs
1-Receiver
1-Clothes dryer
1-Coffee maker
1-CD player
?-Cheap clocks

It was weird and confusing...I came home from work to find that some
things worked, some didn't. I thought I had some bizarre power failure
before something finally tipped me off...it might have been the visible
scorching inside the receiver.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[wortgefecht]

Julf wrote:
> I mostly agree, but then there are the vinyl hipsters (who will soon
> move on to cassettes), but also a significant group of young, clueful
> people who actually listen to flac and high-bitrate lossy formats, on
> reasonable gear, but would never dream of paying $100 for a cable. They
> are the ones who suffer from the effects of the audiophile silliness in
> the marketplace.
Funny thing is, I know quite a lot of those who think that they are the
real "audiophiles" compared to me, because they use overpriced Apple,
Beats, and Sonos hardware while I tinker with cheap Raspberry Pis and
"old crap" like Squeezebox ...



New setup:

- ASRock Ion 330, Lubuntu 14.04, LMS 7.9, FLAC
- *Duet* > AKG Hearo 888 Titan (home office), *Boom + Canton ASF 75
SC* (master bedroom), *Boom* (master bathroom), *Radio* (guest
bathroom), *RPi + KODI 15 + XSqueeze* > Samsung UE60H6270 > Denon
AVR-770SD > Mission 2.1 speakers (living room)
- *Classic* > Parasound DAC 1500 > vintage Wega Modul 42V amp (42E
equalizer, 42T tape deck + Thorens TD 160 Mk II turntable) > Quadral
Vulkan Mk II (music room)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ralphpnj]

wortgefecht wrote:
> Funny thing is, I know quite a lot of those who think that they are the
> real "audiophiles" compared to me, because they use overpriced Apple,
> Beats, and Sonos hardware while I tinker with cheap Raspberry Pis and
> "old crap" like Squeezebox ...
>
> And talking of cassettes: I saw a Nakamichi Dragon tape deck being sold
> for nearly 1000 swiss francs lately ...

Apple, Beats, and Sonos are overpriced?!?!? Who knew? :)

What about Bose and Monster?



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[wortgefecht]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Apple, Beats, and Sonos are overpriced?!?!? Who knew? :)
>
> What about Bose and Monster?

Nah, Bose--as B&O--isn't hip enough anymore. That's so 1990ies. But I
forgot Monster, you're right.



New setup:

- ASRock Ion 330, Lubuntu 14.04, LMS 7.9, FLAC
- *Duet* > AKG Hearo 888 Titan (home office), *Boom + Canton ASF 75
SC* (master bedroom), *Boom* (master bathroom), *Radio* (guest
bathroom), *RPi + KODI 15 + XSqueeze* > Samsung UE60H6270 > Denon
AVR-770SD > Mission 2.1 speakers (living room)
- *Classic* > Parasound DAC 1500 > vintage Wega Modul 42V amp (42E
equalizer, 42T tape deck + Thorens TD 160 Mk II turntable) > Quadral
Vulkan Mk II (music room)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[wortgefecht]

And, not to forget, there is also the vintage crowd, especially the ones
who shell out 10K and more for 1970ies Luxman, Marantz and other gear,
because it comes with wood cases ... But I think that's a completely
different planet :)



New setup:

- ASRock Ion 330, Lubuntu 14.04, LMS 7.9, FLAC
- *Duet* > AKG Hearo 888 Titan (home office), *Boom + Canton ASF 75
SC* (master bedroom), *Boom* (master bathroom), *Radio* (guest
bathroom), *RPi + KODI 15 + XSqueeze* > Samsung UE60H6270 > Denon
AVR-770SD > Mission 2.1 speakers (living room)
- *Classic* > Parasound DAC 1500 > vintage Wega Modul 42V amp (42E
equalizer, 42T tape deck + Thorens TD 160 Mk II turntable) > Quadral
Vulkan Mk II (music room)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Wombat]

My audiophile fluff of the week was a vinyl lover i know got serious
insider infos for me about dbpa rips sound better as EAC even with same
crcs ;)



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mnyb]

Wombat wrote:
> My audiophile fluff of the week was a vinyl lover i know got serious
> insider infos for me about dbpa rips sound better as EAC even with same
> crcs ;)

It must be the tags that sounds different :D



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[garym]

Wombat wrote:
> My audiophile fluff of the week was a vinyl lover i know got serious
> insider infos for me about dbpa rips sound better as EAC even with same
> crcs ;)

oh my! But they will need to go back and test to be sure of these
"differences" now that dbpa has both Mac and Win versions. One can't be
too careful. :p



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
(all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[d6jg]

Rips using a Win 7 Pro machine sound far superior to those made with a
Win 8 machine so I would expect there to be a discernible difference
between dbpa on Mac and the same on Windows. It's even more obvious when
you compare a rip made on a French PC to one made in the UK. Stands to
reason doesn't it?

Of course the difference is largest when you compare a rip from a £200
PC to one from a £1500 PC. The more expensive PC produces much better
results. Of course.

I really shouldn't venture down here to the basement too often!



*Vortexbox LMS 7.8 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
*Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 ->
Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B&W P7
*Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755
-> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
*Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
*Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones
*Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 ->
Wharfedale Modus Cubes
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mnyb]

d6jg wrote:
> Rips using a Win 7 Pro machine sound far superior to those made with a
> Win 8 machine so I would expect there to be a discernible difference
> between dbpa on Mac and the same on Windows. It's even more obvious when
> you compare a rip made on a French PC to one made in the UK. Stands to
> reason doesn't it?
>
> Of course the difference is largest when you compare a rip from a £200
> PC to one from a £1500 PC. The more expensive PC produces much better
> results. Of course.
>
> I really shouldn't venture down here to the basement too often!

Then you should definitely not read The absolute sounds (TAS) article
about computer audio , if you do anyway don't drink anything while
reading it, it will leave your body trough the nose :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[d6jg]

Mnyb wrote:
> Then you should definitely not read The absolute sounds (TAS) article
> about computer audio , if you do anyway don't drink anything while
> reading it, it will leave your body trough the nose :)

:)



*Vortexbox LMS 7.8 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
*Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 - > Celestion Ditton F20s - Zone 2 ->
Sony TA FE 320 -> Sennheiser RS 130 & B&W P7
*Office* - RPi -> Sony TA FE320 -> Celestion F10s / SB3 -> Onkyo CRN 755
-> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
*Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
*Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones
*Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 ->
Wharfedale Modus Cubes
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Jeff07971]

And you absolutely MUST use a good ethernet cable like this:

http://www.audioquest.com/ethernet/diamond

http://hothardware.com/news/10000-ethernet-cable-claims-earth-shattering-advancement-in-audio-fidelity-if-youre-stupid-enough-to-buy-it

or your bits will fall off !



*Players:* SliMP3, Squeezebox 3 x 3, Squeezebox Receiver, SqueezePlayer,
PiCorePlayer on RPi 2 with Hifiberry DAC+ x 2
*Server:* Logitech Media Server Version 7.9.0 - 1443715562 on Centos 7
VM
*Plugins:* AutoRescan / BBCiPlayer / PlayHLS / PowerSave /
PowerSwitchIII
*Remotes:* iPeng8 / Orangesqueeze / PC
*Music:* 383GB, 1269 albums with 17756 songs by 4381 artists mostly
FLACs / Last FM / Soundcloud

*Want a webapp ?* See
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104305-Webapp-for-LMS
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mnyb]

Jeff07971 wrote:
> And you absolutely MUST use a good ethernet cable like this:
>
> http://www.audioquest.com/ethernet/diamond
>
> http://hothardware.com/news/10000-ethernet-cable-claims-earth-shattering-advancement-in-audio-fidelity-if-youre-stupid-enough-to-buy-it
>
> or your bits will fall off !

The scam artist that makes jplay also have a audio grade sata cable :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Wombat]

The market for audiophile joke articles is indeed growing. I am eager
awaiting the golden eared whoopee cushion.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[wortgefecht]

Julf wrote:
> I mostly agree, but then there are the vinyl hipsters (who will soon
> move on to cassettes)

Who cares about cassettes 'now that one can buy this'
(http://www.musicstore.revox.com/index.php?lang=en)? :cool:



New setup:

- ASRock Ion 330, Lubuntu 14.04, LMS 7.9, FLAC
- *Duet* > AKG Hearo 888 Titan (home office), *Boom + Canton ASF 75
SC* (master bedroom), *Boom* (master bathroom), *Radio* (guest
bathroom), *RPi + KODI 15 + XSqueeze* > Samsung UE60H6270 > Denon
AVR-770SD > Mission 2.1 speakers (living room)
- *Classic* > Parasound DAC 1500 > vintage Wega Modul 42V amp (42E
equalizer, 42T tape deck + Thorens TD 160 Mk II turntable) > Quadral
Vulkan Mk II (music room)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

wortgefecht wrote:
> Who cares about cassettes 'now that one can buy this'
> (http://www.musicstore.revox.com/index.php?lang=en)? :cool:

Ah, yes. Because we all know analog is good and digital is bad. But I
guess my problem is the same as my problem with vinyl - as I know each
time I play it will degrade the actual recording, it means I will have
to keep the tape in a vacuum pack in a box and can't actually play it...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[wortgefecht]

Julf wrote:
> Ah, yes. Because we all know analog is good and digital is bad. But I
> guess my problem is the same as my problem with vinyl - as I know each
> time I play it will degrade the actual recording, it means I will have
> to keep the tape in a vacuum pack in a box and can't actually play it...

Ah, since when is "serious collecting" about actually using it?
:rolleyes:



New setup:

- ASRock Ion 330, Lubuntu 14.04, LMS 7.9, FLAC
- *Duet* > AKG Hearo 888 Titan (home office), *Boom + Canton ASF 75
SC* (master bedroom), *Boom* (master bathroom), *Radio* (guest
bathroom), *RPi + KODI 15 + XSqueeze* > Samsung UE60H6270 > Denon
AVR-770SD > Mission 2.1 speakers (living room)
- *Classic* > Parasound DAC 1500 > vintage Wega Modul 42V amp (42E
equalizer, 42T tape deck + Thorens TD 160 Mk II turntable) > Quadral
Vulkan Mk II (music room)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

wortgefecht wrote:
> Ah, since when is "serious collecting" about actually using it?
> :rolleyes:

Good point :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Archimago]

adamdea wrote:
> Archimago
> I just attempted to post a comment on your website under the latest
> musing- not sure it got through. I just wanted to say that I'm afraid
> you may have committed the sin of Kunchur in mixing up the intersample
> interval of 16/44 with the inter sample resolution.
> when you said
> "Note that a 10μs time period corresponds to a 100kHz sampling
> rate, and so 5μs is 200kHz sampling (in contrast, CD 44.1kHz is
> 22.7μs)..."
> well not really, it only corresponds with the inter sample interval, but
> so what?
>
> The time resolution of cd is about 60 picoseconds (1/(44,100 *2^16*
> 2Pi)). Kunchur is just wrong about this and his experiment shows nothing
> about the need for more than 16/44 even as a matter of theory. WE have
> to keep reminding ourselves that sonic events occur over time. I don't
> think you could make a sonic event start -and- stop within a 23
> microsecond period if you tried. So measuring the amplitude at the
> sample intervals is enough to tell you what happened imbetween.
> Of course I agree with what you say under
> "Does this suggest then that we need at least 100-200kHz sampling rate
> digitally to ensure we capture everything?", but in truth the supposed
> problem just doesn't even get off the ground. I'm no expert of course,
> but this was comprehensively explained by JJ over on HA at the time.
>
> I should stress that I'm a huge fan of yours and very grateful for your
> efforts, but I just thought it might be worth tidying up what you say
> there.

Thanks Adam and Julf. I shall amend the posting to make sure we remove
the concern! Certainly would not want to propagate error. Good point
about the impossibility of sonic events as instantaneous phenomena.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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