[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: Ethernet Cable and Audio...

[Archimago]

Latest dose of reality testing:

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/02/measurements-ethernet-cables-and-audio.html

I think I've now completed the "quadrilogy" (tetralogy) of digital cable
testing: TosLink, coaxial, USB, now ethernet. Don't think I'll do
firewire since I don't have any devices using that anymore. Oops... I
almost forgot, I did some HDMI cable testing in the past as well. Guess
that makes that a "pentalogy" :-)

Hope everyone is having a great February.

BTW: What! Art Dudley is 'showing spectral graphs and talking technical
now' (http://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-146) (see page 2)!? I
thought the guy 'didn't like audio engineering'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/10/musings-articles-of-disservice.html)!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> Latest dose of reality testing

"But you can't measure what we hear" :)

> I think I've now completed the "quadrilogy" (tetralogy) of digital cable
> testing: TosLink, coaxial, USB, now ethernet. Don't think I'll do
> firewire since I don't have any devices using that anymore. Oops... I
> almost forgot, I did some HDMI cable testing in the past as well. Guess
> that makes that a "pentalogy" :-)

I guess the only frontier remaining unmeasured is the issue of
supposedly "bit-perfect, but better" player software.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

Julf wrote:
> "But you can't measure what we hear" :)
>
>
>
> I guess the only frontier remaining unmeasured is the issue of
> supposedly "bit-perfect, but better" player software.

Oh think our hero used some of these in another blog ? Or at least loads
his pc close to 100% with other task at the same time .



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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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[Mnyb]

Wonder how the poor sod's using wimp/tidal are having it . We must
insist that they wire up with those silver ethernet cables :rolleyes:
and change their SATA cables .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Julf]

Mnyb wrote:
> Wonder how the poor sod's using wimp/tidal are having it . We must
> insist that they wire up with those silver ethernet cables :rolleyes:
> and change their SATA cables .

I am thinking about starting an audiophile internet service provider,
where all cables and routers are proper audiophile spec stuff...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

Julf wrote:
> I am thinking about starting an audiophile internet service provider,
> where all cables and routers are proper audiophile spec stuff...

To really bury this "issue" we could place the test files on our servers
and temporarily portforward LMS and let Archimago measure :D



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Archimago]

Mnyb wrote:
> To really bury this "issue" we could place the test files on our servers
> and temporarily portforward LMS and let Archimago measure :D

:-)

Actually I can do this already because my dad has a Touch across town
that links to my home server. I seriously hope we don't need to do this
kind of "extreme" testing to prove a point about digital data integrity
and the ability for the devices to buffer enough of the data so there's
no jitter issues!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> :-)
>
> Actually I can do this already because my dad has a Touch across town
> that links to my home server. I seriously hope we don't need to do this
> kind of "extreme" testing to prove a point about digital data integrity
> and the ability for the devices to buffer enough of the data so there's
> no jitter issues!


Digital data integrity is actually quite remarkable. Back sometime in
either 2007 or 2008 I ran the following little test.

I ripped a CD I own into flac files.

I uploaded the flac files to a news server which meant having to encode
the binary data as text.

I then downloaded the flac files from the server which meant having to
decode the text back into binary data.

I then used the downloaded files to burn an audio CD.

I then played the original CD and the burned CD and there was absolutely
no audible difference.

As I said, digital data integrity is remarkable.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Digital data integrity is actually quite remarkable. Back sometime in
> either 2007 or 2008 I ran the following little test.
>
> I ripped a CD I own into flac files.
>
> I uploaded the flac files to a news server which meant having to encode
> the binary data as text.
>
> I then downloaded the flac files from the server which meant having to
> decode the text back into binary data.
>
> I then used the downloaded files to burn an audio CD.
>
> I then played the original CD and the burned CD and there was absolutely
> no audible difference.
>
> As I said, digital data integrity is remarkable.


Yes. It's also remarkable after all these years some people still feel
that copying the digital data can deteriorate the sound quality despite
bit-perfect reproduction!

Worse when you have supposed "professionals" like Cookie Marenco talk
like this (see 'message #12 here'
(http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f13-music-downloads-and-streaming/sound-better-uncompressed-downloaded-files-6158/)).
"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of
your CD, you might as well give up your career as a tester." Oh my...

Hey, I generally don't follow Ms. Marenco's comments so if she has
retracted this belief, I'd love to know!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Yes. It's also remarkable after all these years some people still feel
> that copying the digital data can deteriorate the sound quality despite
> bit-perfect reproduction!
>
> Worse when you have supposed "professionals" like Cookie Marenco talk
> like this (see 'message #12 here'
> (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f13-music-downloads-and-streaming/sound-better-uncompressed-downloaded-files-6158/)).
> "If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of
> your CD, you might as well give up your career as a tester." Oh my...
>
> Hey, I generally don't follow Ms. Marenco's comments so if she has
> retracted this belief, I'd love to know!
>
> I remarked about this 'awhile back with Allen Sides'
> (http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/04/musings-on-experts-experience-and.html)
> as well. Strange stuff.

Cookie Marenco's Blue Coast Records is to acoustic music as Jazz at the
Pawn Shop is to jazz. Well recorded music is NOT the same thing as good
music.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[pablolie]

ralphpnj wrote:
> ... Well recorded music is NOT the same thing as good music.

a lot of audiophile recordings are actually very sterile and un-engaging
performances. sheffield labs - i used their test cd for setup, but their
reference recordings are bla. but that's just me.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity
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[philippe_44]

Archimago wrote:
>
> Worse when you have supposed "professionals" like Cookie Marenco talk
> like this (see 'message #12 here'
> (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f13-music-downloads-and-streaming/sound-better-uncompressed-downloaded-files-6158/)).
> "If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of
> your CD, you might as well give up your career as a tester." Oh my...
>

Thanks for posting that, it made my day :) We should send these guys to
a crash course on the mathematical proofs wrt analogue to digital domain
tranformation and on error codes ... this is so funny. Having said that,
if they want to believe that the sun rotates around the earth ...



LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne
(sort of)
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[Julf]

philippe_44 wrote:
> Having said that, if they want to believe that the sun rotates around
> the earth ...

In their belief system we are the flat-earthers who blindly believe
"scientific dogma" and don't see the reality with an open mind. Another
case of the 'Galileo Gambit'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy#Galileo_Gambit).



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

Archimago wrote:
> :-)
>
> Actually I can do this already because my dad has a Touch across town
> that links to my home server. I seriously hope we don't need to do this
> kind of "extreme" testing to prove a point about digital data integrity
> and the ability for the devices to buffer enough of the data so there's
> no jitter issues!

My idea was that the extreme realy is from another continent :-)

And audiophile music it really is a genre of its own , why no real
artists , why simplistic arrangements that showcases one instrument at
the time , why so bland that it can not offend anyone ( or engage anyone
).
Some of these labels even sound the same stockfish records for example a
lot of echo for atmosphere airy highs and some exaggerated bass slam .

Actually Jazz at pawnshop,is a standout it's not intended as test record
, it's simply a live performance from the 70's that got disproportionate
distrubution outside of its cultural context .
Probably cool for the people that was at the venue to buy a copy but
then what ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Archimago]

Mnyb wrote:
> My idea was that the extreme realy is from another continent :-)
> ...
>

Good idea.

Hey, since I'm located on the W. Coast of N. America, maybe one of you
Europeans would like to open up your LMS for me to stream the test
signals over and I can put up a fun post looking at measurements from
audio streamed from the other side of the world.

Anyone has a high speed uplink that can stream a 24/96 FLAC test signal
over - I don't think it has to be that fast; maybe at least 10Mbps
upload speed? I'll put the test signals (RightMark 24/96, and 24-bit
J-Test) along with maybe a 24/88 test track I mentioned in the last post
up on my FTP server for you to grab to put on your music server.

PM me if you want to try :-). Would make for a fun blog post!



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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> Hey, since I'm located on the W. Coast of N. America, maybe one of you
> Europeans would like to open up your LMS for me to stream the test
> signals over and I can put up a fun post looking at measurements from
> audio streamed from the other side of the world.

I am actually just in the process of setting up a raspberry pi
squeezebox server outside my firewall (for my guest wifi network), but
my upload is standard ADSL, so only 1M :(



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

I have 100/10 mb ethernet rigth into my wall I'm curently at work in
another country i'll pm when I'm back unless someone else does it :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Archimago]

I suspect even a 2.5-5Mbps connection is fine. The issue is of course
what is the actual transfer rate from there to here in Vancouver,
Canada. So long as we don't get buffer underruns, we should be good.



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[Wombat]

Go Canucks!



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[Archimago]

Wombat wrote:
> Go Canucks!

Hey, you a hockey fan Wombat?



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[Wombat]

Archimago wrote:
> Hey, you a hockey fan Wombat?
I am kind of a fan. In germany we didn't have ice hockey on TV but me
had always ESPN in pay-TV and i did fall in love with NHL hockey.
Now that ESPN is gone here we luckily have an US sports channel and i
watch as often i can. I always liked Vancouver with the Sedin brothers
playing!
This year i didn't see much of them because i only get a selection of
the most popular games.
This sport really became fast lately. Time to make the ice a bit bigger
in the NHL.



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[Archimago]

Wombat wrote:
> I am kind of a fan. In germany we didn't have ice hockey on TV but me
> had always ESPN in pay-TV and i did fall in love with NHL hockey.
> Now that ESPN is gone here we luckily have an US sports channel and i
> watch as often i can. I always liked Vancouver with the Sedin brothers
> playing!
> This year i didn't see much of them because i only get a selection of
> the most popular games.
> This sport really became fast lately. Time to make the ice a bit bigger
> in the NHL.

Cool man, you're probably more of a fan than I am :-). I followed the
game much more in the early 2000s when Naslund was here before life got
busy with work and kids. These days, I'm one of those "playoff fans"
that gets interested come April when the regular season ends and the
hope of Lord Stanley's cup looms. Heck, until you mentioned it, I didn't
even check the Canucks' standings for the last couple months...

One experience I missed was to be in town in 2010 at the Winter Olympics
when Canada won against the US for both the men and women's hockey
finals. That would have been a blast!

Yeah, the speed of NHL hockey is phenomenal. I love the "live"
experience and excitement of being at hockey than any other sport.



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[poing]

I think some hypotheses are too ridiculous to be taken seriously. That
is all.


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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> Yeah, the speed of NHL hockey is phenomenal. I love the "live"
> experience and excitement of being at hockey than any other sport.

You should see the Finland-Russia (or even Finland-Sweden) games... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Archimago]

Julf wrote:
> You should see the Finland-Russia (or even Finland-Sweden) games... :)

Hey, considering the number of northern European players we get around
here, I believe it!



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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> Hey, considering the number of northern European players we get around
> here, I believe it!

But when they play in NHL, there isn't that old "don't mention the war"
tension...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Archimago]

Julf wrote:
> But when they play in NHL, there isn't that old "don't mention the war"
> tension...

:-) I see... Yeah, that could add an interesting dimension.



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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Cool man, you're probably more of a fan than I am :-). I followed the
> game much more in the early 2000s when Naslund was here before life got
> busy with work and kids. These days, I'm one of those "playoff fans"
> that gets interested come April when the regular season ends and the
> hope of Lord Stanley's cup looms. Heck, until you mentioned it, I didn't
> even check the Canucks' standings for the last couple months...
>
> One experience I missed was to be in town in 2010 at the Winter Olympics
> when Canada won against the US for both the men and women's hockey
> finals. That would have been a blast!
>
> Yeah, the speed of NHL hockey is phenomenal. I love the "live"
> experience and excitement of being at hockey than any other sport.

Did someone mention hockey? I'm a big time hockey fan and have been
since I was a kid and watched Bobby Hull and Bobby Orr play. Right now
in the greater NYC area hockey is the only major American sport with
decent NYC area teams. Last night I watched the game between the first
place NY Islanders and the third place NY Rangers - fantastic game in
which the Rangers came back from 5-3 third period deficit to win 6-5 in
regulation. Now if only an Eastern Conference team can just manage to
beat the Western Conference team in the finals, something the East
hasn't been able to do for several years.

By the way, the game looked great on my HDTV because I recently rewired
my entire home theater setup with all audiophile cabling :)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Mnyb]

Back from my trip to Finland , still interest in long distance ethernet
test . Looking at your comment field for this blog, it starts to get a
bit nutty .


Wonder if you get discount from audioquest if you wish to cross the
atlantic with thier cable :rolleyes:



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103146

[Julf]

Mnyb wrote:
> Back from my trip to Finland

I hope you didn't take the boat. I still remember the times I did the
crossing in the cheap cabins at the water line back in my student days -
those ships are class A1 ice breakers, but the noise of the ice hitting
the hull right at where your bunk is is something else...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mnyb]

Julf wrote:
> I hope you didn't take the boat. I still remember the times I did the
> crossing in the cheap cabins at the water line back in my student days -
> those ships are class A1 ice breakers, but the noise of the ice hitting
> the hull right at where your bunk is is something else...

Nope flying dont have time when i'm working



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Archimago]

Mnyb wrote:
> Back from my trip to Finland , still interest in long distance ethernet
> test . Looking at your comment field for this blog, it starts to get a
> bit nutty .
>
>
> Wonder if you get discount from audioquest if you wish to cross the
> atlantic with thier cable :rolleyes:

Yup... Let's do this man. PM'ed you!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mnyb]

Archimago wrote:
> Yup... Let's do this man. PM'ed you!

DL'ed the files they are in my server ,sorry for the dealy feel asleep
.

There is a time difference 23:20 in Toronto 05:20 in Västerås +- some
jitter :D



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Archimago]

Thanks!

If you can keep the server open for a few days I'll get to it soon...

Alas, have a presentation to prepare for for Thursday so probably can't
test for the next 48 hours!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ralphpnj]

Mnyb wrote:
> DL'ed the files they are in my server ,sorry for the dealy feel asleep
> .
>
> There is a time difference 23:20 in Toronto 05:20 in Västerås +- some
> jitter :D

That time difference is going to really going to add some delay to the
music. Archimago most likely will still be listening to the first
movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony while back in Västerås you'll be
singing "Ode to Joy" :)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mnyb]

ralphpnj wrote:
> That time difference is going to really going to add some delay to the
> music. Archimago most likely will still be listening to the first
> movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony while back in Västerås you'll be
> singing "Ode to Joy" :)

More worried about "relativistic jitter (TM)" that does horrible things
to audio if you are on diffrent sides of a planet. Even more so if I
where on a body with diffrent gravity :D



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ralphpnj]

Mnyb wrote:
> More worried about "relativistic jitter (TM)" that does horrible things
> to audio if you are on diffrent sides of a planet. Even more so if I
> where on a body with diffrent gravity :D

I can understand your concern regarding relativistic jitter, which as
you probably know is jitter in the femtosecond range. Although
relativistic jitter can only be heard by golden eared professional audio
reviewers their vivid descriptions of the massive amounts of damage that
this evil jitter does to the soundstage, the musical pace and, most
importantly, the height of the sound requires that any well meaning
audiophile do everything in their power to eliminate this destructive
force. Luckily relativistic jitter can be suppressed, although not
completely eliminated, by using a non-asynchronous - asynchronous -
non-asynchronous - asynchronous USB loop, with each step reducing the
jitter by 48%. I strongly suggest that both you and Archimago employ
these USB loops at each side of your grand experiment since without
these modest measures the music will be almost unlistenable.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> I can understand your concern regarding relativistic jitter, which as
> you probably know is jitter in the femtosecond range. Although
> relativistic jitter can only be heard by golden eared professional audio
> reviewers their vivid descriptions of the massive amounts of damage that
> this evil jitter does to the soundstage, the musical pace and, most
> importantly, the height of the sound requires that any well meaning
> audiophile do everything in their power to eliminate this destructive
> force. *Luckily relativistic jitter can be suppressed, although not
> completely eliminated, by using a non-asynchronous - asynchronous -
> non-asynchronous - asynchronous USB loop, with each step reducing the
> jitter by 48%. *I strongly suggest that both you and Archimago employ
> these USB loops at each side of your grand experiment since without
> these modest measures the music will be almost unlistenable.
>
> Edit: I forgot to mention that since relativistic jitter is over 10db
> below the noise floor please do not use Meridian's MQA streaming
> technology with any music that may contain relativistic jitter. The
> presence of relativistic jitter along with the information that MQA
> folds into the data stream below the noise floor *will cause the brain
> of any dog within earshot of the music to explode.
> *
> Edit: I know that much of the above runs counter to most widely held
> scientific beliefs but I know that all of the above is 100% true because
> of quantum mechanics. (Now just try to argue with that!). "Quantum
> mechanics" the most powerful phase in all of high end audio.

Crap. I forgot to take that into account... However the test must go on!
Thankfully I do not have a dog but I will happily make sure the
neighbour's dog is within earshot...

All I know is that I expect the "mother of all jitters" to be evoke.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103146

[Mnyb]

Yea yeah I put my end of the cable on cable lifters :rolleyes:



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ralphpnj]

Mnyb wrote:
> Yea yeah I put my end of the cable on cable lifters :rolleyes:

Mnyb - while cable lifters are absolutely necessary in order to achieve
optimal sound using advance quantum mechanical theory I have discovered
that the ratio of the height of the cable to the length of the cable
being is of critical importance.

Using the formula: 17448

One can easily see that ideal ratio would be 0.0175, i.e. for every
meter of cable the proper height of the cable lifter should 0.0175
meters high.

Too little height and the bass response will become muddy, too much
height and treble will roll off at 16.5kHz

I hope this helps.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: efb5574e2d5d016ba5b0f3afa499cb27.png |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17448|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103146

[kidstypike]

It also helps if you use these for storage:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/sony-announces-100-premium-sound-memory-card-for-audiophiles
:confused:


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: Sony-SD.jpeg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17450|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


kidstypike
1 x SB3 - 1 x Boom - 1 x (Squeezebox) Radio - 2 x Touch - 2 x
piCorePlayer
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103146

[Mnyb]

kidstypike wrote:
> It also helps if you use these for storage:
> http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/sony-announces-100-premium-sound-memory-card-for-audiophiles
> :confused:

If we are to trust absolute sound all hope is gone Archimago copied the
test files to his ftp server from which I then copied them again to my
desktop and then copied them again to my server .

Yep don't ever forgive these lunatics at Absolute sound for producing
that article on digital audio , if you forget they claimed that copies
sound different :confused: among literally pages of complete nonsense .

So henceforth you rip the music to a special drive where they sit and
you move that drive to your new computer until it breaks then you rip
again , in their world there can be no backup . :D

Maybe to some of these Sony Hifi SD cards ..........



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ralphpnj]

Mnyb wrote:
> If we are to trust absolute sound all hope is gone Archimago copied the
> test files to his ftp server from which I then copied them again to my
> desktop and then copied them again to my server .
>
> Yep don't ever forgive these lunatics at Absolute sound for producing
> that article on digital audio , if you forget they claimed that copies
> sound different :confused: among literally pages of complete nonsense .
>
> So henceforth you rip the music to a special drive where they sit and
> you move that drive to your new computer until it breaks then you rip
> again , in their world there can be no backup . :D
>
> Maybe to some of these Sony Hifi SD cards ..........

The article in The Absolute Sound was pure nonsense simply because no
where in the article did it mention quantum mechanics, not even once.
Had the authors had even the slightest knowledge and understanding of
quantum mechanics then they could have quite easily shown their
assertions to be true and not had to face the mountains of scorn and
ridicule thrush upon them.

By the way, I am of course referring to this simple equation, which
clearly shows that digital copies are not and, more importantly, can not
be identical:
17452


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: d9d962a00760d92a4c3d92eb4f0478e5.png |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17452|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103146

[mrw]

I think you may have, inadvertently, missed a term for an external
potential. But I don't think it invalidates your argument.


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[ralphpnj]

mrw wrote:
> I think you may have, inadvertently, missed a term for an external
> potential. But I don't think it invalidates your argument.

On the contrary I don't believe that I missed anything since it was only
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle at work. Not only that but because of
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle there is no need to even state what
the variables are since they could and can be just about anything or
nothing, it's kind of uncertain. Don't you just love quantum mechanics



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103146

[mrw]

ralphpnj wrote:
> On the contrary I don't believe that I missed anything since it was only
> Heisenberg's uncertainty principle at work. Not only that but because of
> Heisenberg's uncertainty principle there is no need to even state what
> the variables are since they could and can be just about anything or
> nothing, it's kind of uncertain. Don't you just love quantum mechanics

Well, I guess you're right. I was having difficulty seeing how your
equation could adequately account for my quantum crystal resonators. But
you've cleared the point up nicely.


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[Archimago]

Seriously guys. There's no way to truly calculate everything at this
point with those equations.

You see, until the Grand Unification Theory is completed, no matter what
we do, we're clearly going to be missing some detail which will of
course be important because our hearing is analogue and of infinite
resolution - just like vinyl which can only be vaguely -approached -by
DSD. PCM sucks of course because everything is stair-stepped and this
hurts the ears/mind. I'll try to get hold of Prof. Stephen Hawking for
an interview on this...

Excitingly, until the formula is ready, you'll just have to buy -every
-expensive cable from AudioQuest, Transparent, Chord, Nordost,
Synergistic, etc... if you're a -serious -audiophile of course. Inferior
audiophiles need not apply because you don't have good enough equipment
and your mind is clearly too dull to appreciate -real -gear and music
(you know, Jazz At The Pawnshop, Krall, Lyn Stanley, everything from
Blue Coast, the latest DSD Kind Of Blue...).

On that note, I published the "Intercontinental Test" thanks to Mnyb.
:-)

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/02/measurements-intercontinental-internet.html

Enjoy...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Julf]

Brilliant! I feel proud for being part of creating those cables many,
many years ago... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mnyb]

Thanks for trying . Pity the link was not fast enough for every test or
listening .

Now maybe i should pay for an 100mB uplink :) that would make streaming
trouble free from where ever i'm at , before Spotify i used to do this
when travelling to get music to my hotell .inside Sweden the hotel
network is usually the weak link so I used LMS to transcode . I do
travell a lot in my work .

Well I close my server tomorrow or tonight then .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103146

[Archimago]

Mnyb wrote:
> Thanks for trying . Pity the link was not fast enough for every test or
> listening .
>
> Now maybe i should pay for an 100mB uplink :) that would make streaming
> trouble free from where ever i'm at , before Spotify i used to do this
> when travelling to get music to my hotell .inside Sweden the hotel
> network is usually the weak link so I used LMS to transcode . I do
> travell a lot in my work .
>
> Well I close my server tomorrow or tonight then .

Thanks again man. You do have a nice library! Despite the latency time
and all, the interface was quite snappy accessing the library with my
Android tablet and Squeeze Commander.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Thanks again man. You do have a nice library! Despite the latency time
> and all, the interface was quite snappy accessing the library with my
> Android tablet and Squeeze Commander.

Hey wait a minute - isn't your android tablet running Squeeze Commander
(by the way have you tried Orange Squeeze, a Squeezebox control for
android?) using WiFi and weren't you supposed to be testing Ethernet
cable? Come on that has got to invalidate all of your so called
"results". Nice try but I know quantum mechanics so you can't fool me.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Seriously guys. There's no way to truly calculate everything at this
> point with those equations.
>
> You see, until the Grand Unification Theory is completed, no matter what
> we do, we're clearly going to be missing some detail which will of
> course be important because our hearing is analogue and of infinite
> resolution - just like vinyl which can only be vaguely -approached -by
> DSD. PCM sucks of course because everything is stair-stepped and this
> hurts the ears/mind. I'll try to get hold of Prof. Stephen Hawking for
> an interview on this...
>
> Excitingly, until the formula is ready, you'll just have to buy -every
> -expensive cable from AudioQuest, Transparent, Chord, Nordost,
> Synergistic, etc... if you're a -serious -audiophile of course. Inferior
> audiophiles need not apply because you don't have good enough equipment
> and your mind is clearly too dull to appreciate -real -gear and music
> (you know, Jazz At The Pawnshop, Krall, Lyn Stanley, everything from
> Blue Coast, the latest DSD Kind Of Blue...).
>
> On that note, I published the "Intercontinental Test" thanks to Mnyb.
> :-)
>
> http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/02/measurements-intercontinental-internet.html
>
> Enjoy...

Great work on the "Intercontinental Test" gentlemen. One quick note -
those buffer under-runs you were experiencing during the playback of the
14bit/88.2kHz song can easily be explained by the following quantum
mechanics formula (remember quantum mechanics is the place to go to for
all your audiophile problems and puzzles):
17465

And don't forget that due to the Heisenberg's uncertainty principle the
variables do not even matter!

However if quantum mechanics is not your thing or the equations just
leave you scratching your head, here is much simpler equation that goes
a very long way in explaining the sad state of affairs of what passes
for journalism in today's world of high end audio:

$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$=whatever
nonsense you want me to publish


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: d9d962a00760d92a4c3d92eb4f0478e5.png |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17465|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Great work on the "Intercontinental Test" gentlemen. One quick note -
> those buffer under-runs you were experiencing during the playback of the
> 14bit/88.2kHz song can easily be explained by the following quantum
> mechanics formula (remember quantum mechanics is the place to go to for
> all your audiophile problems and puzzles):
> 17465
>
> And don't forget that due to the Heisenberg's uncertainty principle the
> variables do not even matter!
>
> However if quantum mechanics is not your thing or the equations just
> leave you scratching your head, here is much simpler equation that goes
> a very long way in explaining the sad state of affairs of what passes
> for journalism in today's world of high end audio:
>
> $+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$+$=whatever
> nonsense you want me to publish

Nice try. But sadly, your solution is clearly missing the first
quantized bosonic component; never forget the 10 superstring dimensions!
17467

No worries... Even the first year astrophysics majors forget that once
awhile.

That $ equation is clearly correct however. :-)


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: First Bosonic.png |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17467|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Mnyb]

I'm cheaper than you :) I can change my opinions completely for no more
than 200k$ I'm investing in a new apartment . I'll photograph my hifi
rig with all the fancy cables and publish in any hifi fora of your
choice .

Cable vendors please pm me ...

But joking aside a pity that the throughput was not better but it proved
another point everything works perfectly until it does not , anything in
the player buffer will play just the same . no subtle degrading of sound
. Ethernet is truly something else than the typical audio interface its
designed to work this way .

As pointed out you can make a measurable difference with cables not fit
for purpose in the *spdiff interface* this interface is much more
sensitive .
But can you hear it ? differences at those low levels is generally
completely inaudible . The classic experiment of using steel coat
hangers as spdif cables comes to mind , this probably disturbs the
interface a bit , if I may guess . Proper cabling is prudent .

Audiophiles go about it the wrong way they argue for specific tweaks or
at the moment hyped things or cables (thank you audio pre$$ ) .

IF they truly understood the scientific method :

1. First prove that we can discern stuff down at -110dB with music
playing at the same time . The general consensus in reality (not in la
la la land ) is that when the noise or distortion is that far below any
threshold of hearing the character or source of the disturbance does not
matter it can be very nasty but you wont hear it no matter what. If you
again find that we cant forget the rest. Everything with this low levels
of problem is transparent .Proof is a blind study sighted testing are
always to biased to serve as information at all .
This is a general case the door would open to many things..

2. Congrats .You managed to prove that human hearing is magnitudes
better then previously believed . Now its time to test any digital
transport of reasonably proper design wallmart DVD player or better . Do
screen for high end cargo cult designs some of these are actually broken
by design and cant be used ,but some will be very well made and perform
excellent . As proven many times no decent DAC changes it output with
different transports the signal leaving the DAC is the same in any case
. Yet another round of tedious DBT tests.... But this is again a genral
case just prove that any transport within reasonable performance makes
any difference .

3. Wov amazing you done it ,now we can start even thinking about cables
.

Or just scrap all that and uses some reasoning, occams razor and
probablity comes to my mind .

Someone claims a results that breaks the laws of physic and there is no
known mechanism to explain it . they are two systems to consider . ( In
this thought experiment we exclude the charlatans making the $$$ their
bias is very simple .)

1. a very simple electronic system with fully understood science (yes
audio is more or less fully understood there is no great mystery ,
another myth keept alive by the usual suspects ) this system behaves
very well and is predictable .
every run gives the same result .

2. A person with a human brain , its awesomely complex and poorly
understood , the personality and experience is not predicable and
subject to countless cognitive biases . The complexity and unknowns
involved are truly humbling .

Faced with a result that seems to brake the rules and are truly
fantastic where would your investigation start :) I choose door nr 2 .
It's just overwhelmingly more likely .
In fact so overwhelmingly likely that the burden of proof is on the
person making these fantastical claims .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphpnj]

Mnyb wrote:
> I'm cheaper than you :) I can change my opinions completely for no more
> than 200k$ I'm investing in a new apartment . I'll photograph my hifi
> rig with all the fancy cables and publish in any hifi fora of your
> choice .
>
> Cable vendors please pm me ...
>
> But joking aside a pity that the throughput was not better but it proved
> another point everything works perfectly until it does not , anything in
> the player buffer will play just the same . no subtle degrading of sound
> . Ethernet is truly something else than the typical audio interface its
> designed to work this way .
>
> ....(nice Mnyb rant)....
>
>
> Faced with a result that seems to brake the rules and are truly
> fantastic where would your investigation start :) I choose door nr 2 .
> It's just overwhelmingly more likely .
> In fact so overwhelmingly likely that the burden of proof is on the
> person making these fantastical claims .

I think lots of audiophile misconceptions come down to the simple
misunderstanding that bigger or more is not necessarily better. For
example the current obsession with the big number of so called high
resolution audio, 384kHz/32bit, can be countered with a better analogy
of what the bigger numbers represent. I think a better analogy would be
that the numbers represent the size of the envelope and the sound
(music) is the letter. A bigger envelope has no effect on the letter.
More bits means the ability to hold more dynamic range but doesn't
change the dynamic range of the music. Higher sampling rates mean the
ability to record higher frequencies but doesn't add high frequencies
when those aren't in the original sound (music).

With cables and wires the misconceptions are often based on the
misunderstanding that improvements made by going from really cheap and
poorly made cable to reasonably priced and well made cable are many,
many orders of magnitude greater than any possible improvements made by
going from reasonably priced and well made cable to insanely overpriced
and well made cable.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[paulster]

Archimago wrote:
> On that note, I published the "Intercontinental Test" thanks to Mnyb.
> :-)
>
> http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/02/measurements-intercontinental-internet.html
>
> Enjoy...

Nice job... as always.

I've been at a loss this last few years to understand whether these
'high-end' cable companies offering their special digital cables truly
believe that they are somehow better, or whether they know they make no
difference but that they have a market that will willingly pay stupid
money for luxury materials in the belief that it must actually be
better. It's an ethical problem for me, but then that's maybe why I
don't run a hi-fi cable business.



Receiver stuck at blue LED state after reboot? Please vote for bug
'17462' (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17462)
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[Archimago]

paulster wrote:
> Nice job... as always.
>
> I've been at a loss this last few years to understand whether these
> 'high-end' cable companies offering their special digital cables truly
> believe that they are somehow better, or whether they know they make no
> difference but that they have a market that will willingly pay stupid
> money for luxury materials in the belief that it must actually be
> better. It's an ethical problem for me, but then that's maybe why I
> don't run a hi-fi cable business.

I'm willing to bet that for the most part, it's the latter. They know
that they're selling products that generally make no difference. Sure,
sometimes better shielding *might* improve certain situations and other
times maybe they have an excellent connector that locks better or
something... I suspect they will justify these properties as worthy of a
certain price point in their own minds no matter how small some of these
"improvements" may be. I guess one would have to do this to feel OK
about charging these exorbitant prices... Otherwise, we're dealing with
fraudulent sociopaths.

Like the 'recent article that some engineers at Pono don't really
believe the hi-res are \"techinically\" better than CD'
(http://nypost.com/2015/01/11/do-consumers-really-care-about-digital-quality/),
I won't be surprised if there are differences in opinions in any single
company... Some "true believers" and others who just have a job to do.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Archimago]

paulster wrote:
> Nice job... as always.
>
> I've been at a loss this last few years to understand whether these
> 'high-end' cable companies offering their special digital cables truly
> believe that they are somehow better, or whether they know they make no
> difference but that they have a market that will willingly pay stupid
> money for luxury materials in the belief that it must actually be
> better. It's an ethical problem for me, but then that's maybe why I
> don't run a hi-fi cable business.

I'm willing to bet that for the most part, it's the latter. They know
that they're selling products that generally make no difference. Sure,
sometimes better shielding *might* improve certain situations and other
times maybe they have an excellent connector that locks better or
something... I suspect they will justify these properties as worthy of a
certain price point in their own minds no matter how small some of these
"improvements" may be. I guess one would have to do this to feel OK
about charging these exorbitant prices... Otherwise, we're dealing with
fraudulent sociopaths.

Like the 'recent article that some engineers at Pono don't really
believe the hi-res are \"techinically\" better than CD'
(http://nypost.com/2015/01/11/do-consumers-really-care-about-digital-quality/),
I won't be surprised if there are differences in opinions in any single
company... Some "true believers" and others who just have a job to do.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Gandhi]

Archimago wrote:
> On that note, I published the "Intercontinental Test" thanks to Mnyb.
> :-)
>
> http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/02/measurements-intercontinental-internet.html
>
> Enjoy...

Such a splendid showcase! If this doesn't eradicate audiophoolia,
nothing will! (And my money is on the latter...)



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
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[Wombat]

Shocking!
Now think one minute that there seriously are people out there that
claim audible improvements when doing audiophile registry tweaks on
Mnybs PC :)


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[ralphpnj]

Now it seems that even The New York Times wants to get in on that
quantum mechanics thing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/22/opinion/sunday/the-reality-of-quantum-weirdness.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=Moth-Hidden&module=inside-nyt-region&region=inside-nyt-region&WT.nav=inside-nyt-region

More gist for the snake oil mill.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Julf]

Gandhi wrote:
> Such a splendid showcase! If this doesn't eradicate audiophoolia,
> nothing will! (And my money is on the latter...)

Unfortunately I have already come across audiophiles arguing that the
demonstration is pointless, as the intermediate digital steps don't
matter - the point of the Very Expensive Audiophool Ethernet Cable is to
isolate your music streamer from the nasty noise in computers (and I
guess routers)...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

Julf wrote:
> Unfortunately I have already come across audiophiles arguing that the
> demonstration is pointless, as the intermediate digital steps don't
> matter - the point of the Very Expensive Audiophool Ethernet Cable is to
> isolate your music streamer from the nasty noise in computers (and I
> guess routers)...

So the argument is that ethernet and tcp-IP works as designed , but for
some reason not in the last step to the player :) by that logic one
should insert an extra switch and a short piece of this super expensive
cable .... How convient .

And actually Archimago just disproved that argument by actually showing
the measurments ? Did they not read the blog ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[netchord]

Mnyb wrote:
> one should insert an extra switch and a short piece of this super
> expensive cable .
>
>

is '$8.98 super expensive?'
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GK5UI06/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

i recently switched from transporter connected wirelessly, to wired w/
the above cable to an Airport Extreme, which in turn connects wirelessly
to another AE that has a wired connection (via same cable) to my
router.

and it sounds better than wireless.

the reason for the switch really had little to do with the transporter,
but with some other equipment (Apple TV) that was having issues. if i
had to characterize the difference, i'd say "greater dynamic range."

but "better" in any event.

go figure.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
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[Mnyb]

netchord wrote:
> is '$8.98 super expensive?'
> (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GK5UI06/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
>
> i recently switched from transporter connected wirelessly, to wired w/
> the above cable to an Airport Extreme, which in turn connects wirelessly
> to another AE that has a wired connection (via same cable) to my
> router.
>
> and it sounds better than wireless.
>
> the reason for the switch really had little to do with the transporter,
> but with some other equipment (Apple TV) that was having issues. if i
> had to characterize the difference, i'd say "greater dynamic range."
>
> but "better" in any event.
>
> go figure.

Not the switch, I already have one for other reasons smart TV ir
emitters etc , the joke was to insert it just so that I can use the
super expensive ethernet cable for the last meters :) I have my main
players on ehternet already .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Wombat]

netchord wrote:
> is '$8.98 super expensive?'
> (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GK5UI06/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
>
> i recently switched from transporter connected wirelessly, to wired w/
> the above cable to an Airport Extreme, which in turn connects wirelessly
> to another AE that has a wired connection (via same cable) to my
> router.
>
> and it sounds better than wireless.
>
> the reason for the switch really had little to do with the transporter,
> but with some other equipment (Apple TV) that was having issues. if i
> had to characterize the difference, i'd say "greater dynamic range."
>
> but "better" in any event.
>
> go figure.
According to your sig you use the Transporter as transport only but hear
better dynamics over ethernet against wireless?



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[netchord]

Wombat wrote:
> According to your sig you use the Transporter as transport only but hear
> better dynamics over ethernet against wireless?

old sig- can't figure out how to change it.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
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[Archimago]

Julf wrote:
> Unfortunately I have already come across audiophiles arguing that the
> demonstration is pointless, as the intermediate digital steps don't
> matter - the point of the Very Expensive Audiophool Ethernet Cable is to
> isolate your music streamer from the nasty noise in computers (and I
> guess routers)...

Which is a strange assertion as well since when does one directly
connect an ethernet streaming device to the computer anyhow to expose it
to all the noise and crap? Unless a person is running multiple ethernet
ports on a computer and using the computer to do network switching?

It was because of this kind of idea that my test last week included 2
measurements using the old 10/100 4-port switch from a decade ago!

Cat 5E, Cat 6, Cat 6A (which BTW has 500MHz rated bandwidth and improved
crosstalk over Cat 6, similar in many ways to Cat 7 at 600MHz) made no
difference. UTP vs. STP made no difference. 1' to 50' made no
difference. Recent inexpensive gigabit switch vs. decade-old 10/100
switch made no difference. All connected to a local HTPC on the same
switch so if computer noise is a problem obviously the different cables
and switches didn't attenuate anything.

This week, no only that, but we show that having the server >7000 km
away across the ocean and N. American continent with conversion between
electrical and optical networks made no difference other than the
ability to sustain adequate bandwidth. (Mikerob - the traceroute idea is
great... Maybe next time I'll keep this in mind!)

Truth be told, I don't think objectivists even need tests like these to
be quite sure of how computers and networks were engineered to work. If
folks who hear significant differences can come up with some verifiable
explanation for why they hear an improvement, then of course the science
of audio can be improved. If not, and there's no way to demonstrate
reality testing, then we continue to waste our time with just opinions
and hearsay.

One reason why I wanted to put these tests out there with details
including equipment used is so we can provide a challenge to those who
feel there is "something" to expensive cables and such... Surely, if
they can come up with their own experiments to show some difference,
"I'm all ears"!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[philippe_44]

Julf wrote:
> Unfortunately I have already come across audiophiles arguing that the
> demonstration is pointless, as the intermediate digital steps don't
> matter - the point of the Very Expensive Audiophool Ethernet Cable is to
> isolate your music streamer from the nasty noise in computers (and I
> guess routers)...

Quick question: you've lost me here ... I fully agree with you wrt the
insanities I'm reading like "this NAS or this hardrive is giving a much
deeper sound" - this is laughable, but intermediate steps do not matter,
they really don't. Your signal can come from Mars, being encoded with a
on a RF carrier with any sort of phase, frequency, amplitude, spreading
modulation, then carried light (EM still) on optical fiber cables, then
transmitted by people beating drums if you want, it does not matter at
all - that's why we have invented error correction codes, to make all
this lossless (oh well, okay, yes, the BER is never 0 but it can be as
low as you want, as long as you do not try to violate Shannon's
theorem). But, when you do the D/A conversion, this is where shit
happens and this where also noise can be re-injected by some proximity
interferers - but this is very close proximity, not the ethernet cable
between my computer source and the next switch.

Maybe I missed your point



LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne
(sort of)
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[Mnyb]

philippe_44 wrote:
> Quick question: you've lost me here ... I fully agree with you wrt the
> insanities I'm reading like "this NAS or this hardrive is giving a much
> deeper sound" - this is laughable, but intermediate steps do not matter,
> they really don't. Your signal can come from Mars, being encoded with a
> on a RF carrier with any sort of phase, frequency, amplitude, spreading
> modulation, then carried light (EM still) on optical fiber cables, then
> transmitted by people beating drums if you want, it does not matter at
> all - that's why we have invented error correction codes, to make all
> this lossless (oh well, okay, yes, the BER is never 0 but it can be as
> low as you want, as long as you do not try to violate Shannon's
> theorem). But, when you do the D/A conversion, this is where shit
> happens and this where also noise can be re-injected by some proximity
> interferers - but this is very close proximity, not the ethernet cable
> between my computer source and the next switch.
>
> Maybe I missed your point

It is a slight possibility to inject noise at the last leg , but as
Archimagos measurment shows it does not actually happen in practice with
normal equipment he uses rather crummy switches etc to hammer in the
piont . And if the player has some of the shelf recovering circuit it
would also work just fine .

The ethernet interface is engineered to be rather trouble free . It
would be rare exceptional cases when this do not work . It is two
current loops with isolation in both ends rather low impedance in bot
sender and reciever so it's not prone to pick up noise by design .

In industrial environments you could sometimes use shielded cat cables ,
but at home they are not necessary and actually could be one of these
rare cases when can get a noise problem ! so the default is not to use
shielded cat cables at home then you migth just connect the computer
ground to your hifi ground .

So in practical use you don't see weird noise transfer that interfere
with the DAC it would pop out in this kind of test .

And the kicker is that if you have this exceptionally rare problem an
audiophile cable is not the solution :) they don't provide anything you
could not get in another cable from a normal vendor . And if they do
it's often of spec " modifications " that makes them worse than standard
cables .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[philippe_44]

Mnyb wrote:
> It is a slight possibility to inject noise at the last leg , but as
> Archimagos measurment shows it does not actually happen in practice with
> normal equipment he uses rather crummy switches etc to hammer in the
> piont . And if the player has some of the shelf recovering circuit it
> would also work just fine .
>
> The ethernet interface is engineered to be rather trouble free . It
> would be rare exceptional cases when this do not work . It is two
> current loops with isolation in both ends rather low impedance in bot
> sender and reciever so it's not prone to pick up noise by design .
>
> In industrial environments you could sometimes use shielded cat cables ,
> but at home they are not necessary and actually could be one of these
> rare cases when can get a noise problem ! so the default is not to use
> shielded cat cables at home then you migth just connect the computer
> ground to your hifi ground .
>
> So in practical use you don't see weird noise transfer that interfere
> with the DAC it would pop out in this kind of test .
>
> And the kicker is that if you have this exceptionally rare problem an
> audiophile cable is not the solution :) they don't provide anything you
> could not get in another cable from a normal vendor . And if they do
> it's often of spec " modifications " that makes them worse than standard
> cables .

ah ... funny enough I thought that the point made by these guys was the
noise generated BY the cable that could impact the D/A process (again in
very close proximity - and to that point, yes an RF signal - spurious or
not - can have an impact on an analogue baseband signal). If the
objective of these cables if to protect the cable FROM interferences
with the fear that the "bits will be damaged" then this is really funny
... :rolleyes:



LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne
(sort of)
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[Mnyb]

Sorry for rambling , some cables do for example provide silver
conductors which in this aplication makes no difference what so ever .
So some high ends mods are not harmful they just do nothing at all .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Julf]

philippe_44 wrote:
> But, when you do the D/A conversion, this is where shit happens and this
> where also noise can be re-injected by some proximity interferers - but
> this is very close proximity, not the ethernet cable between my computer
> source and the next switch.

But you can't *prove* that. It just might... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Gandhi]

Julf wrote:
> Unfortunately I have already come across audiophiles arguing that the
> demonstration is pointless, as the intermediate digital steps don't
> matter - the point of the Very Expensive Audiophool Ethernet Cable is to
> isolate your music streamer from the nasty noise in computers (and I
> guess routers)...

I'm truly sorry to hear that. Can't say I'm surprised though.

Do you have a link?



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
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[Mnyb]

Gandhi wrote:
> Maybe I'll treat myself to a shiny, new Ethernet cable.

The silver in them must be hand forged by singing virgins in the
moonlight or possibly elfs . Otherwise they won't do .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[mikerob]

Archimago wrote:
>
>
> On that note, I published the "Intercontinental Test" thanks to Mnyb.
> :-)
>
> http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/02/measurements-intercontinental-internet.html
>
> Enjoy...

Good stuff. It would have been interesting to do a traceroute to see
how many routers the data was going through in its journey between
Sweden and Canada.


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[ralphpnj]

mikerob wrote:
> Good stuff. It would have been interesting to do a traceroute to see
> how many routers the data was going through in its journey between
> Sweden and Canada.

If you read the New York Times I linked to above you will realize that
the data may or may not have passed through all the routers or none of
the routers on the journey between Sweden and Canada. Which of course
also means that buying the hyper expensive Ethernet cable that started
this whole thread might prove pointless as well since there can be no
guarantee that the data is even flowing through the cable.

Man I just love quantum mechanics! No wonder quantum mechanics is the
stuff from which the best snake oil is made.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Did someone mention hockey? I'm a big time hockey fan and have been
> since I was a kid and watched Bobby Hull and Bobby Orr play. Right now
> in the greater NYC area hockey is the only major American sport with
> decent NYC area teams. Last night I watched the game between the first
> place NY Islanders and the third place NY Rangers - fantastic game in
> which the Rangers came back from 5-3 third period deficit to win 6-5 in
> regulation. Now if only an Eastern Conference team can just manage to
> beat the Western Conference team in the finals, something the East
> hasn't been able to do for several years.
>
> By the way, the game looked great on my HDTV because I recently rewired
> my entire home theater setup with all audiophile cabling :)

Wow, nice game. Love those final period turnarounds.

Now as for the HDMI cable for that HDTV... If you need a long run of
cabling, these '50' AudioQuest Diamond directional HDMI'
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IL3TZSQ/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00IL3TZSQ&linkCode=as2&tag=archsmusi-20&linkId=NE5YKVASTOQULWQB)
cables at *only *$13,500 are a steal! Better order now, only 4 left ;-).



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Mnyb]

Julf wrote:
> I am thinking about starting an audiophile internet service provider,
> where all cables and routers are proper audiophile spec stuff...

Include free streaming of jazz at the pawnshop and i'm on .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Julf]

Mnyb wrote:
> Include free streaming of jazz at the pawnshop and i'm on .

I'll throw in some Diana Krall, but only in DSD!



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[darrenyeats]

Arch,
"Bottom line: There's no evidence that any of the digital cables make an
audible difference be it TosLink, coaxial, USB, or now ethernet within
an error-free system."

You measured differences between different coax S/PDIF cables here.
http://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/measurements-logitech-touch-as-transport.html

I'd already mentioned this before your latest blog post.
Darren



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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[Archimago]

darrenyeats wrote:
> Arch,
> "Bottom line: There's no evidence that any of the digital cables make an
> audible difference be it TosLink, coaxial, USB, or now ethernet within
> an error-free system."
>
> You measured differences between different coax S/PDIF cables here.
> http://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/measurements-logitech-touch-as-transport.html
>
> I'd already mentioned this before your latest blog post.
>
> Edit: clarification due to Julf's question on PFM. The phrase "or now
> ethernet" gives the false impression all the other measurement results
> are like this latest test's null result.
> Darren

Thanks for the reminder Darren. Yeah that test demonstrated that we
should not use a cheap poorly/unshielded RCA wire in place of a proper
coaxial digital cable. This is of course not a "proper" digital cable
but just a way to show that indeed noise can creep into the system and
cause problems. Furthermore, this was mainly with using EDO on a Touch
running at 24/192 which isn't actually standard spec for the device
(although even at 24/96 there were hints of problems).

I'll do an update on the recent post reminding folks to use proper
cables and watch for interference in any case!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[netchord]

Mnyb wrote:
> Wonder how the poor sod's using wimp/tidal are having it.

what's your issue w/ Tidal (or presumably lossless streaming in
general?)



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
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[ralphpnj]

Julf wrote:
> "But you can't measure what we hear" :).

"You can't miss what you can't measure" - Funkadelic 1973

All kidding aside, it is remarkable that we "objectivitists"now have the
onus put on us to defend our beliefs since these beliefs are not really
beliefs but actual scientific truths, you know those things that used to
be known as facts. The older I get the more firmly convinced I am
becoming that the truth and money do not get along very well.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

Julf wrote:
> "But you can't measure what we hear" :)
>
>
>
> I guess the only frontier remaining unmeasured is the issue of
> supposedly "bit-perfect, but better" player software.

Hey - remember back in 2013 I had a look at good ol' JPLAY:
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/06/measurements-part-ii-bit-perfect.html

I believe I found a bug back then and I see those guys are still in
business. Furthermore, they're now selling a line of "JCAT"
audiophile-approved hardware like 5V PSU, USB cards, ethernet cables,
USB cables. Even SATA cables.

See Julf, that's the kind of hardware you need for this audiophile
streaming site for all the servers you're planning!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Wombat]

Shocking results again!
I see the critics already seeing the problems occuring below the level
you can measure. Ignoring that it simply plays no role then for any
realworld system.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[Archimago]

Wombat wrote:
> Shocking results again!
> I see the critics already seeing the problems occuring below the level
> you can measure. Ignoring that it simply plays no role then for any
> realworld system.

Good... Critics welcome to criticize because I want them to actually
test this for themselves and honestly come back with their own data and
hopefully reasonably controlled listening test results. I'm pretty sure
some (many) will realize the true nature of the Emperor and his
clothes...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> Hey - remember back in 2013 I had a look at good ol' JPLAY:
> http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/06/measurements-part-ii-bit-perfect.html
>
> I believe I found a bug back then and I see those guys are still in
> business. Furthermore, they're now selling a line of "JCAT"
> audiophile-approved hardware like 5V PSU, USB cards, ethernet cables,
> USB cables. Even SATA cables.

Then we have our occasional friend with his 'MQn player'
(http://2channelaudio.blogspot.nl/2014/02/mqn-minimalist-pc-music-player-king-of.html)...

> See Julf, that's the kind of hardware you need for this audiophile
> streaming site for all the servers you're planning!

Ah, yes. Now I just need to find a data center with audiophile quality
power connectors...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

pablolie wrote:
> a lot of audiophile recordings are actually very sterile and un-engaging
> performances. sheffield labs - i used their test cd for setup, but their
> reference recordings are bla. but that's just me.

It's not just limited to audio recording, i.e. recordings made on
audiophile record labels, but to recordings made for any record label
that have become the darlings of the audiophile crowd, e.g. those
dreadful HP Super Disc Lists.

Mnyb wrote:
> Actually Jazz at pawnshop,is a standout it's not intended as test record
> , it's simply a live performance from the 70's that got disproportionate
> distrubution outside of its cultural context .
> Probably cool for the people that was at the venue to buy a copy but
> then what ?

Mnyb I know that you are Swedish and must defend your homeland but come
on, Jazz at the Pawn Shop is not all that good. Look at the bright side,
I never say anything bad about ABBA (since I just say nothing at all:))

Julf wrote:
> In their belief system we are the flat-earthers who blindly believe
> "scientific dogma" and don't see the reality with an open mind. Another
> case of the 'Galileo Gambit'
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy#Galileo_Gambit).

Back in Galileo's day the influence of money was most likely not as
powerful as it today. While individual audiophiles who believe the
nonsense published in audiophile magazines may be somewhat innocent, the
writers and editors of those audiophile rags are being PAID to write the
nonsense and belief has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Julf wrote:
> Ah, yes. Now I just need to find a data center with audiophile quality
> power connectors...

Since when are we talking about data. If you want this idea to fly in
the audiophile community you would be better served calling it a music
distribution center.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[SBGK]

Julf wrote:
> Then we have our occasional friend with his 'MQn player'
> (http://2channelaudio.blogspot.nl/2014/02/mqn-minimalist-pc-music-player-king-of.html)...
>

still bitter ?



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
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[ralphpnj]

SBGK wrote:
> still bitter ?

Yeah that audiophile kool-aid is awfully bitter.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

SBGK wrote:
> still bitter ?

SBGK. Although this might require another thread, since you're here, I
am wondering when you say (in "MQnreadme.txt"):
-"MQn - Just good music is (sic) a minimalist WASAPI Wav memory player
that is stripped back as far as possible to reduce noise."-

What noise are you referring to, say compared to foobar player with
WASAPI plugin sending audio to something relatively common these days
like a USB DAC?

How do you verify that the noise level has changed at all? Or that if
you hear a difference, that it even is a noise level change?



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> SBGK. Although this might require another thread, since you're here, I
> am wondering when you say (in "MQnreadme.txt"):
> -"MQn - Just good music is (sic) a minimalist WASAPI Wav memory player
> that is stripped back as far as possible to reduce noise."-
>
> What noise are you referring to, say compared to foobar player with
> WASAPI plugin sending audio to something relatively common these days
> like a USB DAC?
>
> How do you verify that the noise level has changed at all? Or that if
> you hear a difference, that it even is a noise level change?

Come on Archimago you know that it is the noise generated by those
non-audiophile Ethernet and USB cables that you are so fond of.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Come on Archimago you know that it is the noise generated by those
> non-audiophile Ethernet and USB cables that you are so fond of.

I dunno man. Let's see what SBGK has to say about this...

SBGK, seriously man, I appreciate the work and time you have spent as I
look at your Google Drive folder. You're obviously trying from different
angles in terms of compiler optimizations and various instruction sets
(like the SSE work). But it'll be nice to understand what you're trying
to achieve and how you're making sure that each step gradually evolves
towards a beneficial direction...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[Wombat]

SBGK once stated what speakers he uses. It were some vintage 2-way
monitors with a tweeter that these days pretty sure is long surpassed.
Can't find the post though.
So if anything produces noise on playback it is his speakers looong
before digging into high dynamic range number.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[jimmypowder]

I have heard the 10,000 dollar Audioquest Ethernet cable and it is
amazing !! The differences from a standard
Ethernet cable are profound . I'm thinking of buying a pair .




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[doctor_big]

jimmypowder wrote:
> I have heard the 10,000 dollar Audioquest Ethernet cable and it is
> amazing !! The differences from a standard
> Ethernet cable are profound . I'm thinking of buying a pair .
You go, girlfriend!




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[Archimago]

jimmypowder wrote:
> I have heard the 10,000 dollar Audioquest Ethernet cable and it is
> amazing !! The differences from a standard
> Ethernet cable are profound . I'm thinking of buying a pair .

Cool, Jimmy. You da man!

Let us know what you're using it with and make sure to post *lots *of
pictures of your soundroom with all the audiophile bling!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[jimmypowder]

"Archimago wrote:
> Cool, Jimmy. You da man! Let us know what you're using it with and
> make sure to post lots of pictures of your soundroom with all the
> audiophile bling!

I have all Radio Shack equipment . Speakers , amp . Top of the line .




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[Archimago]

jimmypowder wrote:
> I have all Radio Shack equipment . Speakers , amp . Top of the line .

Oooohhh... Nice. I hope it's vintage Realistic and Optimus! We need
pictures!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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