Discussion:
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Buying a transporter these days
Antoniop
2017-09-07 13:02:39 UTC
Permalink
I'm a music lover for a long time, but I never spent too much money on
it. I only have an old, but quite good, Denon HIFI amplifier, with a
pair of honest speakers from a little french maker (today disappeared),
connected to a touch.
I decided to buy some new hifi and put some money in it. I want to buy a
new amp (with integrated DAC or not), eventually an external DAC and a
pair of good speakers. Maybe later I'll buy a vinyl turntable. I've got
a lot of CDs (about 600) and a decent CD player but I mostly listen the
music from LMS.
I'm thinking about buying a transporter as an external DAC and music
streamer, do you think it can be a good choice these days ?
I'm sure there are many other options, cheaper and newer. I'm fan of all
the logitech squeeze products, they're all well integrated with LMS,
very good quality and sound, excellent ergonomics, but I wouldn't like
to buy something too expensive for it's quality, compared to what I
could get for about the same price these days.
I saw some new units on ebay, at '999 dollars'
(http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-IN-BOX-Logitech-Transporter-Network-Music-Player-With-Transnav-Knob-BLACK-/162275332317?epid=114608393&hash=item25c85d10dd:g:uccAAOSwqYBWpXxs)
and some also new but without transnav knob for '499 $'
(http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-IN-BOX-Logitech-Transporter-SE-Network-Music-Player-Without-Transnav-Knob-/161870947854?epid=114608393&hash=item25b042a60e:g:6QUAAOSw9mFWLvKR)
(that's a big difference for only a knob, isn't it ? is it worth ?)
I would have the same budget (1000 $) for the amplifier and same for the
speakers (1000 $), clearly I don't want to spend more money for the all
configuration and I'll certainly not spend 300 $ in cables (just to make
clear), so 1000 is a lot for a DAC maybe ? If you wanted to buy a new
configuration, would go to a transporter ?

Thanks for your advice and sorry for my poor english



LMS 7.9.0
on Linux Mageia 5 and RPI 3
1 SB3, 2 radio, 1 touch
Plugins : Trackstat, Smartmix, MusicIP, ...
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Apesbrain
2017-09-07 13:53:09 UTC
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If you really want a Transporter, at $499 it's not a bad deal. The knob
part was discontinued so that's why those versions sell for so much
more. If you primarily control your SB player via the remote, or via
PC/app, the knob is not necessary. In any case, it's not worth $500
more! Transporter is a very fine machine even against today's options.
Just be aware that it does not have color display and it is limited to
24/96 PCM should that matter to you.

In your situation, I'd probably keep the Touch and play around with an
external DAC; either the one in your new amp or a separate box. The
Touch is a good player as is and maybe made better with a new DAC. I
run one of mine into the optical digital input of a NAD D 3020 and am
very happy with this solution.

Check this out:
https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-368-hybrid-digital-dac-amplifier/


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Antoniop
2017-09-07 14:29:26 UTC
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Apesbrain wrote:
> If you really want a Transporter, at $499 it's not a bad deal. The knob
> part was discontinued so that's why those versions sell for so much
> more. If you primarily control your SB player via the remote, or via
> PC/app, the knob is not necessary. In any case, it's not worth $500
> more! Transporter is a very fine machine even against today's options.
> Just be aware that it does not have color display and it is limited to
> 24/96 PCM should that matter to you.
>
> In your situation, I'd probably keep the Touch and play around with an
> external DAC; either the one in your new amp or a separate box. The
> Touch is a good player as is and maybe made better with a new DAC. I
> run one of mine into the optical digital input of a NAD D 3020 and am
> very happy with this solution.
>
> Check these out:
> https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-368-hybrid-digital-dac-amplifier/
> https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-338-classic-digital-dac-amplifier/

Yes, after posting, I saw the posts about the SE, clearly it would be a
better option, even if I like the big knob :).
I don't care about the color display and I'm not convinced about 24/96.
But keeping (well, I'll keep it anyway) the touch an put a bit more
money on the rest is not bad too. Interesting products these Nads,
thanks !



LMS 7.9.0
on Linux Mageia 5 and RPI 3
1 SB3, 2 radio, 1 touch
Plugins : Trackstat, Smartmix, MusicIP, ...
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RonM
2017-09-19 12:18:14 UTC
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Antoniop wrote:
> Yes, after posting, I saw the posts about the SE, clearly it would be a
> better option, even if I like the big knob :).
> I don't care about the color display and I'm not convinced about 24/96.
> But keeping (well, I'll keep it anyway) the touch an put a bit more
> money on the rest is not bad too. Interesting products these Nads,
> thanks !

Back to the start of this thread -- buying a TP would allow you to keep
the Touch and have it as a back-up; they're not making any more of
either of these.

R.



LMS on a dedicated server (FitPC3)
Transporter (Ethernet) - main listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Touch (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space
Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (WiFi) - home office
Control - Squeeze Control (Android mobile), 2 Controllers (seldom used),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 4)
Touch x 1 - spare
UE Radio x 1 - spare
Boom x 1 - spare
Controller x 1 - Spare
Duet Receiver (backup)
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Antoniop
2017-09-19 12:46:19 UTC
Permalink
RonM wrote:
> Back to the start of this thread -- buying a TP would allow you to keep
> the Touch and have it as a back-up; they're not making any more of
> either of these.
>
> R.

Hi RonM,
I agree. Actually, I finally decided to buy one of these Transporter SE,
because I always wanted to have one, so I was a bit frustrated. It's a
very good DAC (from what I read), and it will also be a back-up to my
touch (or my touch will be the back-up). The SE version is at a very
good price, giving the fact it's new and it's quite the same as the one
with the knob, which I don't really need. It will be enough to treat my
frustration... :rolleyes:
I recently also bought a new radio, to have a back-up to the one I
already had. I'm only missing now the boom and the duet, but I don't
really love them anyway.



LMS 7.9.0
on Linux Mageia 5 and RPI 3
1 SB3, 2 radio, 1 touch
Plugins : Trackstat, Smartmix, MusicIP, ...
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drmatt
2017-09-07 17:02:22 UTC
Permalink
There's a few digital amps around not many. V1 Naim Supernait, DAC
v1/NAP100 power amp combo, Cyrus 6, 8 and up come with built in DAC
options, there's a Marantz digital amp, and probably a few others. Oddly
the genre does not seem to have caught on, unless in conjunction with AV
features. Though I doubt they will be in your options list.


-Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-



--
Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with
Debian+LMS 7.9.0
Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k
albums..
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Antoniop
2017-09-07 18:59:17 UTC
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drmatt wrote:
> There's a few digital amps around not many. V1 Naim Supernait, DAC
> v1/NAP100 power amp combo, Cyrus 6, 8 and up come with built in DAC
> options, there's a Marantz digital amp, and probably a few others. Oddly
> the genre does not seem to have caught on, unless in conjunction with AV
> features. Though I doubt they will be in your options list.
> -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-

What do you use then, to have the best sound to listen to your favorite
music from your LMS library ?
I see a list of hardware, but I don't see how they fit together.



LMS 7.9.0
on Linux Mageia 5 and RPI 3
1 SB3, 2 radio, 1 touch
Plugins : Trackstat, Smartmix, MusicIP, ...
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Mnyb
2017-09-07 19:21:00 UTC
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Rip your CD's to 16/44.1 FLAC files and save the investment of a CD
player .
You can now listen to your CD's via LMS and your squeezebox touch .

If your stereo also is in your TV room and you get a DAC with multiple
digital inputs or an amp with multiple digital inputs just use your dvd
or blueray for the occasional CD spin if you have not ripped them yet .

And the CD player budget can go amp or speakers :) .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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drmatt
2017-09-07 20:06:52 UTC
Permalink
What he said. ^^ The ripping part is a pain in the ass but once done
it's done. I have an offboard DAC for my SBT going to a stereo amplifier
for music playback, which also is fed front left/right signals from an
AV amp for TV/film duties. Best of both worlds.


-Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-



--
Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with
Debian+LMS 7.9.0
Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k
albums..
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Antoniop
2017-09-07 20:20:03 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> What he said. ^^ The ripping part is a pain in the ass but once done
> it's done.
Exactly, I'm proud to rip myself my own CDs using the best accurate rip
software.
I already got a decent CD player, and don't intend to change it, Mnyb,
thanks for the suggestion anyway :)
drmatt wrote:
> I have an offboard DAC for my SBT going to a stereo amplifier for music
> playback, which also is fed front left/right signals from an AV amp for
> TV/film duties. Best of both worlds.
>
> -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-
Is it good enough ? aren't we in the audiophile section of the forum ?
:rolleyes:
What stereo amplifier do you have ?
If you all have the touch, maybe I don't need the transporter after all.
I had a look to the digital amps you mentioned DrMatt, they're not cheap
and not very recent, although certainly excellent.
Is anybody using one of the recent amplifiers with dlna capabilities ?



LMS 7.9.0
on Linux Mageia 5 and RPI 3
1 SB3, 2 radio, 1 touch
Plugins : Trackstat, Smartmix, MusicIP, ...
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garym
2017-09-07 21:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Antoniop wrote:
>
> Is anybody using one of the recent amplifiers with dlna capabilities ?

Once you have used LMS, dlna is simply awful as a streaming approach.



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.4) > LMS 7.9.1 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio (all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.4) > LMS 7.9.1 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win8(64) > LMS 7.9.1 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Transporter, Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win10(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
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Fizbin
2017-09-07 21:16:38 UTC
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I think the black SE looks better without the knob.


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Marinero1601
2018-06-13 15:38:22 UTC
Permalink
I've a Transporter from new, bought it when they first came out. It's
working fine, couple of small scratches on metal casing, and I'm not
sure if I can find the remote - I control it from my network. Also have
2 x Boom and a Duet somewhere as well. Ready to sell 'em if anyone's
interested..........


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drmatt
2017-09-07 21:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Correct, never met a dlna playback device that is as satisfying to use
as an LMS end point. Add the colour touchscreen and numerous
android/iPhone apps and it's game over, frankly. Win for the
squeezeboxes.

As for sound quality, I'm extremely happy with my SBT, Mytek DAC and
Supernait amp combo. (I stopped using the built-in DAC on the Supernait
because the mytek sounds subtlely different, in a good way, to me.)

I demoed the Cyrus amps but found them not to my tastes, and I've never
really liked a Marantz amp long enough to put the batteries in the
remote.. but they are all options which may work for you.. or may not! I
demoed the NAD D7050 too. I think Arcam and Cambridge Audio may well
also have digital amps, as do a few other brands.

For reference I could not hear any difference in audio quality using the
same setup fed digital data from a Chromecast audio, but that's obvious:
sound character is determined in the analogue domain. I prefer the SBT
as a digital source however.


-Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-



--
Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with
Debian+LMS 7.9.0
Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k
albums..
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Mnyb
2017-09-07 21:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Another thougth active speakers ? Or active digital speakers ? Provided
one can find speakers that otherwise satisfy taste and acoustiscs .
Important caveat the xover should be digital or analog before the amps
showing the amp in the speaker box and still have a passive filter does
not make them active in my book.

Removing passive filters firms up the impulse response and removes
distortion , there are tons of weird artefacts with passive filters .
And does a lot of other good things .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Golden Earring
2017-09-07 23:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb wrote:
> Another thougth active speakers ? Or active digital speakers ? Provided
> one can find speakers that otherwise satisfy taste and acoustiscs .
> Important caveat the xover should be digital or analog before the amps
> showing the amp in the speaker box and still have a passive filter does
> not make them active in my book.
>
> Removing passive filters firms up the impulse response and removes
> distortion , there are tons of weird artefacts with passive filters .
> And does a lot of other good things .

I've recently acquired some Fostex active speakers which will connect to
the Transporter's balanced XLR outputs off eBay seriously cheaply to
provide my 2 daughters(& their husbands) with their 1st music systems.
They really tick all the boxes, minimal cabling, significant
adjustability (they'll me several times, no way to predict room
size/acoustic properties) & cheap to use (Class D amplifiers in-built).

That's 2 of my 4 Transporters spoken for (the 2 unused SE's I imported
from CA): I'm left with an all-black Logitech original I got off eBay
for £450, & the trusty s/hand Slim Devices branded one I bought s/hand 8
years ago which is still going like a train - it's silver, but there
wasn't much going s/hand in 2009.

The Fostex speakers (now discontinued after 2 years are a bit light at
the bottom end (but they're tiny!), so I've also bought some of the
current Fostex 5" sub-woofers (which run simultaneously off the
Transporter's unbalanced RCA phono outputs) which are also tiny, but do
a passably job of filling in the bottom end.

Total system cost (including stands for monitors & sub-woofers - around
£1500 each. I don't think you could get a better sound for the money - &
all of this kit is unused...

Dave :cool:


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Antoniop
2017-09-07 22:17:21 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
>
>
> For reference I could not hear any difference in audio quality using the
> same setup fed digital data from a Chromecast audio, but that's obvious:
> sound character is determined in the analogue domain. I prefer the SBT
> as a digital source however.
> -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-

Then, we're coming back to my point : Should I buy a transporter, that I
could use as the digital source and the DAC, or use a SBT as a digital
source with a recent external DAC, such as this one '*Rotel RDD-1580 *'
(https://www.whathifi.com/rotel/rdd-1580/review)not too pricey, with a
good amp, like the cambridge cxa60 or the 'Rega Brio'
(https://www.whathifi.com/rega/brio/review) ?



LMS 7.9.0
on Linux Mageia 5 and RPI 3
1 SB3, 2 radio, 1 touch
Plugins : Trackstat, Smartmix, MusicIP, ...
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cliveb
2017-09-08 06:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Antoniop wrote:
> Then, we're coming back to my point : Should I buy a transporter, that I
> could use as the digital source and the DAC, or use a SBT as a digital
> source with a recent external DAC
I am a long-time user of the Transporter, and am very happy with it. It
sounds fabulous.

BUT: if it ever dies, I will not be looking to replace it. The TP is a
legacy product that still performs well, but there are cheaper
alternatives easily available these days. A Raspberry Pi running
Squeezelite feeding a decent external DAC will provide equally good
sound quality.

The only reason I can think of why anyone would want to get a TP these
days would be if they happen to like its look.

And regarding the "knob or no knob" question: the knob is a great big
white elephant and serves no purpose in day-to-day use. BUT: The
blanking plug on the TP SE looks like a cheap piece of plastic, and
frankly I think it spoils the look. (But bear in mind I've only seen
photos of the TP SE, never seen one in the flesh). So if you're going to
buy a TP for the aesthetics (and IMO there is no other reason to get
one), then you need one with the knob, otherwise the aesthetics are
ruined.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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Antoniop
2017-09-08 06:43:17 UTC
Permalink
cliveb wrote:
> I am a long-time user of the Transporter, and am very happy with it. It
> sounds fabulous.
>
> BUT: if it ever dies, I will not be looking to replace it. The TP is a
> legacy product that still performs well, but there are cheaper
> alternatives easily available these days. A Raspberry Pi running
> Squeezelite feeding a decent external DAC will provide equally good
> sound quality.
>
> The only reason I can think of why anyone would want to get a TP these
> days would be if they happen to like its look.
>
> And regarding the "knob or no knob" question: the knob is a great big
> white elephant and serves no purpose in day-to-day use. BUT: The
> blanking plug on the TP SE looks like a cheap piece of plastic, and
> frankly I think it spoils the look. (But bear in mind I've only seen
> photos of the TP SE, never seen one in the flesh). So if you're going to
> buy a TP for the aesthetics (and IMO there is no other reason to get
> one), then you need one with the knob, otherwise the aesthetics are
> ruined.

You're perfectly right : I like the look and knowing it's an old piece
of technology pleases me too. But it's not really a reasonable choice in
your opinion, moreover at 1000 $. I agree with the look of the SE : it
looks like a cheap piece of plastic, at least on the pictures.



LMS 7.9.0
on Linux Mageia 5 and RPI 3
1 SB3, 2 radio, 1 touch
Plugins : Trackstat, Smartmix, MusicIP, ...
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Golden Earring
2017-09-08 19:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Antoniop wrote:
> You're perfectly right : I like the look and knowing it's an old piece
> of technology pleases me too. But it's not really a reasonable choice in
> your opinion, moreover at 1000 $. I agree with you about the look of the
> SE : it looks like a cheap piece of plastic, at least on the pictures.

Hi Antoniop!

I paid around £800 for my silver Slim Devices Transporter (with silver
buttons. lol) back in 2009, when it was still a current product.

BUT, I recently snared a newer all-black Logitech-branded one in perfect
condition (& still made in the US!) on eBay for £450, although I did
have to exercise a lot of patience because they don't show up often,
although they're not as hard to come by as the Pathos Acoustics
Endorphin CD Player I just made a 500 mile round trip to collect (the
vendor doesn't have any music streaming system at all, & is inexplicably
reverting to vinyl. Arnyk would NOT be impressed, lol... )

The eBay.com vendor asking $1000 for his unused model is shooting the
moon IMHO: it's simply NOT worth that much...

Dave :cool:


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Antoniop
2017-09-08 20:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Golden Earring wrote:
>
> The eBay.com vendor asking $1000 for his unused model is shooting the
> moon IMHO: it's simply NOT worth that much...
>

Hi Dave, I suppose they're asking $1000 because it was the price when it
was still current product !
Could be worse, there's a new touch at 800€ for sale !
Yes it's a bit too much.
BTW, nice piece of technology, this Pathos Acoustics Endorphin CD
Player. I love the name !



LMS 7.9.0
on Linux Mageia 5 and RPI 3
1 SB3, 2 radio, 1 touch
Plugins : Trackstat, Smartmix, MusicIP, ...
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Golden Earring
2017-09-08 22:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Antoniop wrote:
> Hi Dave, I suppose they're asking $1000 because it was the price when it
> was still current product !
> Could be worse, there's a new touch at 800€ for sale !
> Yes it's a bit too much.
> BTW, nice piece of technology, this Pathos Acoustics Endorphin CD
> Player. I love the name !

Hi Antoniop!

Most of my gear is s/hand: realistically, as soon as you take a new bit
of kit out of the box, you've flushed half of the purchase price down
the toilet (with a few significant exceptions - the B&W 805S speakers I
was forced to buy new, simply because there weren't any s/hand items
available at the time, are still selling at 80% of the price I paid -
after INSISTING on a 15% discount. The salesman, who hadn't got any to
demo to me asked me slightly desperately if I wouldn't like to hear them
first - so I told him that my hearing was shot but that my significant
other liked the shape of them. He was then so far off his script that he
caved in & gave me the 15% off, lol... ).

And the mean time between failures for solid-state devices is around
100,000 hours!

You can get an "as-new" Touch, complete with all original packaging, for
around £200 on eBay if you decide to go for that...

Dave :cool:

P.S. The infamous Ken Kessler himself began by deriding the "Endorphin"
name, then listened to the beast & declared it his new reference player
- it really *-does-* sound even better than its "sexiest CD player in
the universe" looks ;)


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Antoniop
2017-09-08 23:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Golden Earring wrote:
> Hi Antoniop!
>
> Most of my gear is s/hand: realistically, as soon as you take a new bit
> of kit out of the box, you've flushed half of the purchase price down
> the toilet (with a few significant exceptions - the B&W 805S speakers I
> was forced to buy new, simply because there weren't any s/hand items
> available at the time, are still selling at 80% of the price I paid -
> after INSISTING on a 15% discount. The salesman, who hadn't got any to
> demo to me asked me slightly desperately if I wouldn't like to hear them
> first - so I told him that my hearing was shot but that my significant
> other liked the shape of them. He was then so far off his script that he
> caved in & gave me the 15% off, lol... ).
>
> And the mean time between failures for solid-state devices is around
> 100,000 hours!
>
> You can get an "as-new" Touch, complete with all original packaging, for
> around £200 on eBay if you decide to go for that...
>
> Dave :cool:
>
> P.S. The infamous Ken Kessler himself began by deriding the "Endorphin"
> name, then listened to the beast & declared it his new reference player
> - it really *-does-* sound even better than its "sexiest CD player in
> the universe" looks ;)

Hi Dave,
you're excellent !
Maybe you'll find me a bit snobbish, but I don't like much used thinks.
My father used to almost never buy something new, always used things:
(very) used cars, used clothes, used furniture... Not only a question of
money. I like to buy everything new, but I keep it until it dies !
I know, I'm loosing opportunities to get very good things for a very
good price !



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Golden Earring
2017-09-09 07:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Antoniop wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> you're excellent !
> Maybe you'll find me a bit snobbish, but I don't like much used thinks.
> My father used to almost never buy something new, always used things:
> (very) used cars, used clothes, used furniture... Not only a question of
> money. I like to buy everything new, but I keep it until it dies !
> I know, I'm loosing opportunities to get very good things for a very
> good price !

Hi Antoniop!

No, I don't think that you're snobbish. ;)

As long as you look after your kit & keep it for ages, you will still
get good value when you consider the cost per diem...

There are pro's & con's of buying s/hand.

The initial outlay is certainly less, but there may be subtle faults
with the gear that you don't pick up at the brief audition before you
buy - I would certainly strongly advise against buying from someone who
has "already sold his other stuff" & is unable to offer an audition at
all!

Also you will get no warranty against new faults (unless you buy from a
dealer, but their prices are usually higher & they'll only normally
offer a 3 or 6 month limited warranty on used gear).

On the up-side, if you find that the new item doesn't gel well with your
existing kit, or gives you "listening fatigue" (which may not become
apparent for quite some time after you've bought it), you can sell it on
(with a clear conscience, since your buyer will have different stuff &
different ears, lol) for more or less what you paid for it. I appreciate
that good dealers offer extended sale or return trials, but these may
still not be long enough to become really confident that the item fits
your needs, & you certainly won't get any discount from them if they
offer this service...

Dave :cool:


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Antoniop
2017-09-09 08:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Golden Earring wrote:
> Hi Antoniop!
>
> No, I don't think that you're snobbish. ;)
>
> As long as you look after your kit & keep it for ages, you will still
> get good value when you consider the cost per diem...
>
> There are pro's & con's of buying s/hand.
>
> The initial outlay is certainly less, but there may be subtle faults
> with the gear that you don't pick up at the brief audition before you
> buy - I would certainly strongly advise against buying from someone who
> has "already sold his other stuff" & is unable to offer an audition at
> all!
>
> Also you will get no warranty against new faults (unless you buy from a
> dealer, but their prices are usually higher & they'll only normally
> offer a 3 or 6 month limited warranty on used gear).
>
> On the up-side, if you find that the new item doesn't gel well with your
> existing kit, or gives you "listening fatigue" (which may not become
> apparent for quite some time after you've bought it), you can sell it on
> (with a clear conscience, since your buyer will have different stuff &
> different ears, lol) for more or less what you paid for it. I appreciate
> that good dealers offer extended sale or return trials, but these may
> still not be long enough to become really confident that the item fits
> your needs, & you certainly won't get any discount from them if they
> offer this service...
>
> Dave :cool:

Hi Dave!
That's very interesting, thank you for sharing your experience !



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Golden Earring
2017-09-09 09:46:09 UTC
Permalink
Antoniop wrote:
> Hi Dave!
> That's very interesting, thank you for sharing your experience !
> I'll consider differently buying second hand or not!

Hi Antoniop!

I just thought it was helpful to set out the arguments on both sides.

Some of my gear was new (or ex-demo, which amounts to the same thing
really, such gear has usually had very little use & its provenance is
known... ). This is usually either because I want something that hasn't
been around long enough to be easily obtained s/hand or simply because
it's so good that people don't want to sell it after they've bought it,
lol. My B&W 805S speakers fell into that category. However I did
approach a B&W dealer who I knew didn't have any in stock & negotiated a
15% discount on the basis that I would pay cash, he would order them in
& I would collect the unopened boxes as soon as they arrived. As a
consequence a pair sold on eBay a couple of weeks ago for a full 80% of
the price I paid 8 years ago - & they were of a similar age to mine
because only about 6 months after I bought mine B&W fitted the diamond
tweeter used in their more expensive floor-standers, & curiously the
list price went up from £1500 (pretty good value) to around £4000 (not
so good, especially since the initial 805D's were not very good -
they're on to the 805D S3 by now... ).

My Mytek Brooklyn DAC (ex-demo, acquired fro dealer in Scotland via an
actual eBay auction in which I was fortunate because the other 2 bidders
dropped out way below the price which I would have paid) is a recent
model with unique features - it incorporates a fully balanced Class A
headphone amplifier delivering up to 6W/channel (which I have used 7 can
confirm is good) & also an MC/MM analogue phono pre-amplifier (which I
haven't tried yet, but which should enable me to resurrect the Linn
LP12/Ittok/Koetsu Rosewood Signature set-up that has followed me around
since the 1980's, lol... ), as well as a very flexible DAC itself which
has a word clock out: this latter feature means that I can slave my
Transporter to the Mytek's clock (this is done by changing settings in
the Logitech Media Server software) & effectively eliminate the digital
jitter that tends to arise when a 2-box configuration is used, whether
it be a CD Transport/DAC combo or a Music Streamer/DAC combo. Exactly
the same engineering considerations are at play in either case. I have
posted extensively about this on other threads in this forum, but would
be happy to provide the links to the discussion of the issue by Sean
Adams himself & also to the technical engineering paper upon which he
justified his position...

But as regards new vs s/hand, it's entirely up to you which route you
choose - it's your money, after all!

Dave :cool:


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Antoniop
2017-09-11 13:58:03 UTC
Permalink
Golden Earring wrote:
> Hi Antoniop!
>
> I just thought it was helpful to set out the arguments on both sides.
>
> Some of my gear was new (or ex-demo, which amounts to the same thing
> really, such gear has usually had very little use & its provenance is
> known... ). This is usually either because I want something that hasn't
> been around long enough to be easily obtained s/hand or simply because
> it's so good that people don't want to sell it after they've bought it,
> lol. My B&W 805S speakers fell into that category. However I did
> approach a B&W dealer who I knew didn't have any in stock & negotiated a
> 15% discount on the basis that I would pay cash, he would order them in
> & I would collect the unopened boxes as soon as they arrived. As a
> consequence a pair sold on eBay a couple of weeks ago for a full 80% of
> the price I paid 8 years ago - & they were of a similar age to mine
> because only about 6 months after I bought mine B&W fitted the diamond
> tweeter used in their more expensive floor-standers, & curiously the
> list price went up from £1500 (pretty good value) to around £4000 (not
> so good, especially since the initial 805D's were not very good -
> they're on to the 805D S3 by now... ).
>
> My Mytek Brooklyn DAC (ex-demo, acquired fro dealer in Scotland via an
> actual eBay auction in which I was fortunate because the other 2 bidders
> dropped out way below the price which I would have paid) is a recent
> model with unique features - it incorporates a fully balanced Class A
> headphone amplifier delivering up to 6W/channel (which I have used 7 can
> confirm is good) & also an MC/MM analogue phono pre-amplifier (which I
> haven't tried yet, but which should enable me to resurrect the Linn
> LP12/Ittok/Koetsu Rosewood Signature set-up that has followed me around
> since the 1980's, lol... ), as well as a very flexible DAC itself which
> has a word clock out: this latter feature means that I can slave my
> Transporter to the Mytek's clock (this is done by changing settings in
> the Logitech Media Server software) & effectively eliminate the digital
> jitter that tends to arise when a 2-box configuration is used, whether
> it be a CD Transport/DAC combo or a Music Streamer/DAC combo. Exactly
> the same engineering considerations are at play in either case. I have
> posted extensively about this on other threads in this forum, but would
> be happy to provide the links to the discussion of the issue by Sean
> Adams himself & also to the technical engineering paper upon which he
> justified his position...
>
> But as regards new vs s/hand, it's entirely up to you which route you
> choose - it's your money, after all!
>
> Dave :cool:

Hi Dave,
I see that you're an expert regarding hifi and you're quite hard to
please, but what do you do about "gear fitting", I mean, I'm not an
expert myself but it seems to me that for example some speakers give a
better sound with some amplifiers than some others, regardless if the
amplifier is better or not, just because they fit better, or do you
think that the better gear together always give a better sound ?
Usually, I try to listen the new equipment I want to buy with the one
that I already have, or at least with equipments from the same brand, to
know what I'll have when back home.
That's not possible when you buy second hand.
I hope you understand what I mean (my english is a bit weak).

Antonio



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iPhone
2017-09-11 20:16:07 UTC
Permalink
Antoniop wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> I see that you're an expert regarding hifi and you're quite hard to
> please, but what do you do about "gear fitting", I mean, I'm not an
> expert myself but it seems to me that for example some speakers give a
> better sound with some amplifiers than some others, regardless if the
> amplifier is better or not, just because they fit better, or do you
> think that the better gear together always give a better sound ?
> Usually, I try to listen the new equipment I want to buy with the one
> that I already have, or at least with equipments from the same brand, to
> know what I'll have when back home.
> That's not possible when you buy second hand.
> I hope you understand what I mean (my english is a bit weak).
>
> Antonio
.
.
Hello Antonio,

"Gear Fitting" as you call it, IE matching separates for one of four
reason (price, sound, better half demands, or a combination of the first
three) takes many paths. For most of us, price plays a huge part in this
process plus what sounds good to one's own ears (all ears are shaped
differently and some are more sensitive then others). I am of the option
that the majority of one's HiFi Dollars need to go toward quality
Speakers. I say this for two main reasons, firstly having the best
source device, pre-amp, and amplifier are all wasted if the output
devices, one's speakers, are crap! No matter how great one's front is,
it can't make up for speakers that are poor quality, will not accurately
reproduce what is sent to them, and last are of a poor design that
actually adds artifacts or colors what they are being presented.
Secondly, if the majority (half to two thirds) of one's HiFi budget is
spent on quality Speakers knowing that they are fairly expensive and
hence a major expense to upgrade or replace (don't know anybody that
upgraded to a "Better" pair of speakers that cost less then the pair
they replaced), one can buy good source and amplification knowing that
those will be the pieces upgraded in the future trying to caught up to
the upper most ability of the speakers originally purchased. I have been
making this journey for decades repeating the process as I moved up the
HiFi quality ladder and this HiFi building/upgrading model has severed
me well. I am almost there as soon as I have saved enough money to
purchase my ultimate Pre-Amplifier.

Interconnects, power cords, and speaker cables are important, but good
quality that works properly in where to spend the money on these, not in
fancy covers or looks, nor on over priced hype. Properly setup, 4 coat
hangers can sound just as good as $5000 speaker cables! So again, don't
waste large sums of money on outrageous speaker cables and interconnects
when good quality engineered ones do the exact same job as $25,000
cryogenic silver speaker cables!
.
.



*iPhone*
Media Room:
ModWright Platinum Signature Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp,
Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers:
Quatro Wood Mains, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video:
Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1, Vandersteen V2W Subwoofer

Living Room:
Transporter, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model
3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1

Office: Touch with Vandersteen VSM-1s
Kitchen: Touch in-wall mount w/ Thiel Powerpoint 1.2s
Bedroom: Squeezebox BOOM
Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio
Around the House: SliMP3, SB1, SB2, SB3
Ford Thunderbird: SB Touch, USB drive
Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive
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Antoniop
2017-09-12 12:58:00 UTC
Permalink
iPhone wrote:
> .
> .
> Hello Antonio,
>
> "Gear Fitting" as you call it, IE matching separates for one of four
> reason (price, sound, better half demands, or a combination of the first
> three) takes many paths. For most of us, price plays a huge part in this
> process plus what sounds good to one's own ears (all ears are shaped
> differently and some are more sensitive then others). I am of the option
> that the majority of one's HiFi Dollars need to go toward quality
> Speakers. I say this for two main reasons, firstly having the best
> source device, pre-amp, and amplifier are all wasted if the output
> devices, one's speakers, are crap! No matter how great one's front is,
> it can't make up for speakers that are poor quality, will not accurately
> reproduce what is sent to them, and last are of a poor design that
> actually adds artifacts or colors what they are being presented.
> Secondly, if the majority (half to two thirds) of one's HiFi budget is
> spent on quality Speakers knowing that they are fairly expensive and
> hence a major expense to upgrade or replace (don't know anybody that
> upgraded to a "Better" pair of speakers that cost less then the pair
> they replaced), one can buy good source and amplification knowing that
> those will be the pieces upgraded in the future trying to caught up to
> the upper most ability of the speakers originally purchased. I have been
> making this journey for decades repeating the process as I moved up the
> HiFi quality ladder and this HiFi building/upgrading model has severed
> me well. I am almost there as soon as I have saved enough money to
> purchase my ultimate Pre-Amplifier.
>
> Interconnects, power cords, and speaker cables are important, but good
> quality that works properly in where to spend the money on these, not in
> fancy covers or looks, nor on over priced hype. Properly setup, 4 coat
> hangers can sound just as good as $5000 speaker cables! So again, don't
> waste large sums of money on outrageous speaker cables and interconnects
> when good quality engineered ones do the exact same job as $25,000
> cryogenic silver speaker cables!
> .
> .
Hi iPhone, thank you for your post. I agree with all you're saying but
I'm not sure you see what I mean, I was not clear.
I don't mean choosing (very) good speakers for a good amp, I agree it's
not right to buy an expensive amplifier or dac when speakers are poor. I
still agree with you, they are the most important components.
I will speak about my (limited) experience: last time (a long time ago)
I bought my amp and speakers, I bought it at the same shop. In the
auditorium I first choose the best speakers that I listened with my own
music in my budget, then I tried the different amps and selected two of
them, one luxman and a Denon, they were about the same price, but the
Denon was a noticeably better. Then I tried the luxman and the denon
with another pair of speakers, Cabasse speakers, a little pricier
(Cabasse was very famous in France in the past). The Luxman was better
than the Denon with the Cabasse, but Cabasse was very good with
Classical music but poor with other styles of music, and I'm not very
found of classical. According to the salesman, it's because Cabasse
where more defined than the speakers I preferred, then they fitted
better with the Luxman, that was less defined than the Denon (ie A high
defined amp fits well with less defined speakers and vice-versa).
So my question is: don't you think it's better to try to listen at least
the amp and the speakers together, just to hear if they fit well ? or is
it just an illusion I had.
Of course, sound appreciation is very subjective, one can be influenced
by the look of the gear (must be killing), flattering reviews, the price
(the higher is the better), a friend who said that gear was fantastic,
an advice on amazon from someone who was an expert, or the reputation of
the brand, and realize some days later, with time, at home, that we just
don't like the sound of it. That happened to me recently.
A good thing that we have in France, by the way, is that when we buy on
the internet we have 2 weeks to change our mind, we can send back the
gear and get the money back, we'll pay only the transport. If you buy in
a shop, you usually only have your tears to cry.

I agree about the cords, I don't see the point paying 1000 euros for an
electric cable, even if it's the best electric cable in the world, since
all the other cables in the area are just average honest electric
cables.



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Golden Earring
2017-09-12 12:17:15 UTC
Permalink
Antoniop wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> I see that you're an expert regarding hifi and you're quite hard to
> please, but what do you do about "gear fitting", I mean, I'm not an
> expert myself but it seems to me that for example some speakers give a
> better sound with some amplifiers than some others, regardless if the
> amplifier is better or not, just because they fit better, or do you
> think that the better gear together always give a better sound ?
> Usually, I try to listen the new equipment I want to buy with the one
> that I already have, or at least with equipments from the same brand, to
> know what I'll have when back home.
> That's not possible when you buy second hand.
> I hope you understand what I mean (my english is a bit weak).
>
> Antonio

Hi Antonio!

I absolutely agree with the previous answer to your question, i.e. it is
the transducers which have the final job of imparting the sound waves
into your listening room that are now the weakest (arguably the only
weak) link in the audio chain as far as modern music reproduction
equipment goes. Indeed, at least in theory, any earlier components
*-should-* work together without any significant problems, since the
voltage levels & impedances of both unbalanced (RCA phono) & balanced
(XLR) interconnections at the line level are now standardised & most
equipment adheres to these specifications.

The problems with loudspeakers (or headphones for that matter) derive
from the physical construction of the drivers (cone stiffness, mass,
linearity when displaced from their static position & off-axis response)
& in the case of loudspeakers the choice of loading (infinite baffle,
reflex, transmission-line or even occasionally free-air or even
isobaric) combined with the quality of construction & precise internal
volume of the cabinet. There are other schools of thought (e.g.
Harbeth's deliberately flexible cabinets), but most designers now aim to
make their enclosures as rigid as possible. There is also the critical
choice between a stand-mount cabinet (often referred to as "bookshelf"
loudspeakers, although actually placing them on a crowded wall-shelf
will usually result in a poor sound compared to using rigid & adequately
damped speaker stands & having some free space around the enclosures...
) or having larger floor-standing enclosures (which usually have more
drivers than stand-mounts). Finally, the crossover design & positioning
of the various drivers relative to each other are critical to achieving
a coherent musical performance. Active speakers may be preferable to
passive ones if you have deep pockets! Whilst the fidelity of modern
transducers has improved markedly compared to designs from say 40 years
ago with the current availability of lightweight rigid materials such as
carbon fibre, graphite or Kevlar for LF drivers & exotic ones like
beryllium or even diamond for HF drivers, it remains the case that
almost all of the non-linearity (aka distortion) of your system will
derive from the transducers - even the very best & astronomically
expensive ones are still not perfect! The specific impact of these
issues for you will depend in part upon the size, shape & even
construction materials of your listening room.

So loudspeaker design still involves considerable compromise, &
different speakers will usually sound much more distinct from each other
than different amplifiers or earlier components in the audio chain. So
whilst there are some general guidelines that will point you in the
right direction in terms of selecting the right type of loudspeaker for
your room, ultimately the acid test is whether you are happy with the
musical reproduction that you achieve which is inevitably a subjective
matter. I do not believe that any published numerical specifications
pertaining to loudspeakers have any useful bearing on their sound
quality (this is not the case with amplifiers, for example, where
generally accepted measurements can give a reasonable basis for the
unit's suitability(. Arnyk recently send me a link for a 2017 research
paper by 3 eminent Danish academics who were seeking to quantify
loudspeaker performance. It was a tough read, but ultimately I did not
feel that they had actually made much headway! A particular problem is
that some loudspeakers may sound very initially impressive & it is over
the course of several months of regular listening that their sound
begins to grate upon you - the trial period typically offered by even
"top-dollar" dealers is usually NOT long enough for this effect to
manifest itself, which is another reason that I would serious recommend
buying "as new" s/hand loudspeakers, since it leaves you the option of
selling them on later *-without-* losing a significant amount of money
if you change your mind 6 months down the line...

What is your listening room like (i.e. approximate shape, size, ceiling
height, solid or plasterboard walls, solid or suspended floor &
ceiling)?

Dave :cool:


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Antoniop
2017-09-12 13:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Golden Earring wrote:
> Hi Antonio!
>
> I absolutely agree with the previous answer to your question, i.e. it is
> the transducers which have the final job of imparting the sound waves
> into your listening room that are now the weakest (arguably the only
> weak) link in the audio chain as far as modern music reproduction
> equipment goes. Indeed, at least in theory, any earlier components
> *-should-* work together without any significant problems, since the
> voltage levels & impedances of both unbalanced (RCA phono) & balanced
> (XLR) interconnections at the line level are now standardised & most
> equipment adheres to these specifications.
>
> The problems with loudspeakers (or headphones for that matter) derive
> from the physical construction of the drivers (cone stiffness, mass,
> linearity when displaced from their static position & off-axis response)
> & in the case of loudspeakers the choice of loading (infinite baffle,
> reflex, transmission-line or even occasionally free-air or even
> isobaric) combined with the quality of construction & precise internal
> volume of the cabinet. There are other schools of thought (e.g.
> Harbeth's deliberately flexible cabinets), but most designers now aim to
> make their enclosures as rigid as possible. There is also the critical
> choice between a stand-mount cabinet (often referred to as "bookshelf"
> loudspeakers, although actually placing them on a crowded wall-shelf
> will usually result in a poor sound compared to using rigid & adequately
> damped speaker stands & having some free space around the enclosures...
> ) or having larger floor-standing enclosures (which usually have more
> drivers than stand-mounts). Finally, the crossover design & positioning
> of the various drivers relative to each other are critical to achieving
> a coherent musical performance. Active speakers may be preferable to
> passive ones if you have deep pockets! Whilst the fidelity of modern
> transducers has improved markedly compared to designs from say 40 years
> ago with the current availability of lightweight rigid materials such as
> carbon fibre, graphite or Kevlar for LF drivers & exotic ones like
> beryllium or even diamond for HF drivers, it remains the case that
> almost all of the non-linearity (aka distortion) of your system will
> derive from the transducers - even the very best & astronomically
> expensive ones are still not perfect! The specific impact of these
> issues for you will depend in part upon the size, shape & even
> construction materials of your listening room.
>
> So loudspeaker design still involves considerable compromise, &
> different speakers will usually sound much more distinct from each other
> than different amplifiers or earlier components in the audio chain. So
> whilst there are some general guidelines that will point you in the
> right direction in terms of selecting the right type of loudspeaker for
> your room, ultimately the acid test is whether you are happy with the
> musical reproduction that you achieve which is inevitably a subjective
> matter. I do not believe that any published numerical specifications
> pertaining to loudspeakers have any useful bearing on their sound
> quality (this is not the case with amplifiers, for example, where
> generally accepted measurements can give a reasonable basis for the
> unit's suitability(. Arnyk recently send me a link for a 2017 research
> paper by 3 eminent Danish academics who were seeking to quantify
> loudspeaker performance. It was a tough read, but ultimately I did not
> feel that they had actually made much headway! A particular problem is
> that some loudspeakers may sound very initially impressive & it is over
> the course of several months of regular listening that their sound
> begins to grate upon you - the trial period typically offered by even
> "top-dollar" dealers is usually NOT long enough for this effect to
> manifest itself, which is another reason that I would serious recommend
> buying "as new" s/hand loudspeakers, since it leaves you the option of
> selling them on later *-without-* losing a significant amount of money
> if you change your mind 6 months down the line...
>
> What is your listening room like (i.e. approximate shape, size, ceiling
> height, solid or plasterboard walls, solid or suspended floor &
> ceiling)?
>
> Dave :cool:

Hi Dave !
You seems to be an endless source of knowledge regarding hifi ! Very
interesting post indeed.
Sorry, I was posting an answer to iPhone, and I'm very slow, my english
flows too slowly.
My room is a little sitting room, about 20 m² (67 ft), rectangular, I'll
be approximatively at 10ft from each speaker, ceiling is at 9 ft heigh,
walls are solid but it's open on each side of the room without doors (at
right I have a kitchen and at left the living room and dining room).
Floor is parquet and ceiling is solid. The room has a few furniture: a
sofa (where I sit in front of the speakers), an upright piano (very nice
old Pleyel, I'm proud of it), a little table at the corner of the sofa
(for the drink of course) and a low dresser.
Thanks a lot for your help ! :)



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Golden Earring
2017-09-12 15:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Antoniop wrote:
> Hi Dave !
> You seems to be an endless source of knowledge regarding hifi ! Very
> interesting post indeed.
> Sorry, I was posting an answer to iPhone, and I'm very slow, my english
> flows too slowly.
> My room is a little sitting room, about 20 m² (67 ft), rectangular, I'll
> be approximatively at 10ft from each speaker, ceiling is at 9 ft heigh,
> walls are solid but it's open on each side of the room without doors (at
> right I have a kitchen and at left the living room and dining room).
> Floor is parquet and ceiling is solid. The room has a few furniture: a
> sofa (where I sit in front of the speakers), an upright piano (very nice
> old Pleyel, I'm proud of it), a little table at the corner of the sofa
> (for the drink of course) and a low dresser.
> Thanks a lot for your help ! :)

Hi Antonio!

Thanks for the info, it's much easier to give specific advice based on
your actual room rather than to try to generalise!

Like everyone else on the forum (I guess, unless they listen out in
their garden, lol) the highest main modal resonance in your room will be
based on the floor to ceiling height, which is better than many people's
at 9', but will still be a shorter distance than that between any
parallel walls. The fact that your floor & ceiling are both solid makes
matters worse. But don't despair yet! If you are in love with your
(doubtless very pretty but also highly reflective parquet flooring, then
I would suggest a nice thick rug or two - you don't have to cover the
entire floor, any damping will improve the acoustic to some extent.
OTOH, if you don't mind covering it up, a THICK wall-to-wall wool carpet
on top of the thickest underlay you can get would be even better.

The open sides to your room will improve its acoustic, since the sound
will spill out into your kitchen on the one side, & your living & dining
room on the other: the effect will be as if you were in a larger
listening room. The conventional wisdom with a rectangular room is to
position the speakers on one of the long walls, 6 - 8 feet apart (&
certainly no more than 10', else you'll get a "hole" in the middle of
your stereo image unless you really turn the wick up!): however from
your description, I imagine that your walls with the door-less gaps are
the long ones, & that it will therefore be more ergonomic to put the
speakers across one of the shorter walls & sit to listen with your back
to the other one. This is OK, since the gaps in the side walls will
prevent the sound being unduly funnelled towards you. I would however
suggest that decent stand-mount speakers will give a more musical effect
than floor-standing speakers, because the former are less fussy about
being located relatively close to the wall behind, or even to being
fairly near the corner of the room (this will inevitably cause a LF
boost to a degree though, the bass radiates pretty much 360 degrees
around the speaker, it's the HF that is far more directional... ). If
you miss the lowest octave, a sub-woofer (or better yet 2, wired up in
stereo - not because you can hear an extreme LF stereo image: you can't,
but because having more than 1 source of low bass in the room,
especially doing different things, reduces room resonances) carefully
adjusted to match the LF roll-off of the stand-mounts, will sort that
out for you. The sub-woofer positioning is not critical, although it (or
they) should be in front of you, not behind. If you don't have it/them
close to your main speakers, you may find that they sound better with
the phase inverted - just try both settings, it'll be obvious which is
correct for the location. Then adjust the cross-over frequency to get a
good sound without overlapping or missing low frequencies & last of all
set the gain. -*Everyone*- sets it too high to start with, then you
detect some "boominess" after a while & keep edging the gain down for a
week or two until you finally get a smooth & natural effect. We're just
after a subtle reinforcement of the lowest notes... ;)

The strings of your beloved piano will try to "sing along" as well if
you turn up the volume, which will be bad for a sharp image - I'd
suggest a half-brick or heavy door-stop strategically placed on the soft
pedal when you're not playing, lol.

That's my two pennyworth, I hope it helps...

Dave :cool:

P.S. Enjoy your drink - I'm currently on the Jack Daniels with Zero Coke
(in a separate glass, of course... ). Salut!


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Mnyb
2017-09-12 15:34:36 UTC
Permalink
Well choose your speakers first .

Todays amp's -driven within their spec's- rarely impose any audible
signature at all unless designed that way ( tube amplifier with
transformers ) .

Speakers are usually designed so that an amp with very low output
impendance and a flat frequency response gives the output the designer
expects and designed for . ( There are exceptions as always )

So it comes down to speakers impedance demands ( complicated xover in
multiway speaker ) sensitivity and room size .

That sets how much power and stability you need then it's feature set
build quality and compatibility with other things and even design if
it's going to sit in fulll view in the music room .

If you are frugal you get the cheapest amp that can still handle your
speakers in your listening situation :)

Anecdotaly I've has speakers from Canton and Snell that where quite
happy with 50wpc and then Dynaudios that needed >200w



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Mnyb
2017-09-12 15:44:39 UTC
Permalink
Oh and "within specs" quality amps usually behaves ok when driven close
and slightly over their limits and still sounds "ok" not so well
designed stuff can behave really bad .

In the early 90's I saw magazine actually measuring amps with a real
speakers , they built a very robust speaker not intended for listening
but it had typical anomalies that real world speakers have like phase
and impedance shifts reverse EMF and such things , nonlinear coils in
the xover .

The best amps pretty much behaved as their specifications even if those
where the typical 8 ohm resistive load specs, they did not change much
with real speaker as load.
Lesser amps did not reach thier specs in these kind of tests .

What I want to say is that the old sayings that measurements don't tell
the whole story is kind of true but not in the way many audiophile's
think .
But rather if we had the rigth kind of measurements against a common
standard they could tell us much more that they actually do . Having the
spec wars of the 80's in fresh memory:)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Golden Earring
2017-09-12 20:13:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi Antonio!

I fully concur with Mynb's last 2 posts & would simply note that the
stand-mount style of loudspeaker which I have suggested for your room
tend to be simple 2-way designs, usually with equally simple passive
crossovers which present a relatively benign load for the amplifier.

So go listen to loudspeakers, & allocate the majority of your budget to
them: any halfway competent modern amplifier design (i.e. NOT expensive)
should be able to drive them satisfactorily.

Don't forget to damp out your piano, as recommended earlier, while
you're quaffing the Ricard Cinquante Et Un (SO much better than Pernod,
lol) & indulging your taste for contemporary music...

Dave :cool:


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Antoniop
2017-09-12 22:23:33 UTC
Permalink
Golden Earring wrote:
> Hi Antonio!
>
> I fully concur with Mynb's last 2 posts & would simply note that the
> stand-mount style of loudspeaker which I have suggested for your room
> tend to be simple 2-way designs, usually with equally simple passive
> crossovers which present a relatively benign load for the amplifier.
>
> So go listen to loudspeakers, & allocate the majority of your budget to
> them: any halfway competent modern amplifier design (i.e. NOT expensive)
> should be able to drive them satisfactorily.
>
> Don't forget to damp out your piano, as recommended earlier, while
> you're quaffing the Ricard Cinquante Et Un (SO much better than Pernod,
> lol) & indulging your taste for contemporary music...
>
> Dave :cool:

Hi Dave,
By "2-way designs" do you mean something like yours, the B&W 805S ? with
or without subwoofer ? At the moment, I have in this room a pair of
little Audioengine A2, they're the speakers I take with me when I leave
my home for some time, and a Audioengine S8 subwoofer that I added
recently. I like very much the A2, for their nice sound for the size,
but a bit disappointed by the S8, at too low volume I don't hear it, at
too high volume it's boomy. I'm not sure that I like very much
subwoofers actually.
The Ricard 51 is a good drink for the aperitif, specially in summer,
with some ice cubes, sitted at a Café Terrace or with friends at home.
When I try to have some quiet time at home, I rather have a good rum
from venezuela or an old Cognac ;) , But my origins are Portuguese
(please don't mention the paella, it's spanish) so I should have a
vintage porto, except that porto wine is not a drink for aperitif or for
the evening, it's a dessert wine. Hum, not so simple.
As for my taste in music, I think you're asking what it is, and
certainly it has its importance for choosing the gears, with the time it
has changed, it's true I liked very much contemporary music when Stevie
Wonder, the Pink Floyd, Bob Marley, the Dire straits or David Bowie were
contemporary, now I still love them but I don't usually like the
contemporary music, too much synthesizers pretending they're real
instruments. I prefer jazz: Piano, Guitar, Organ, classic or modern
jazz, everything except the female vocal jazz (really too boring), some
blues, and I don't dislike some modern artists like Dave Matthews (with
Tim Reynolds, I really love), John Mayer and a few others... To continue
with the clichés, I don't like Edith Piaf, but I like Amalia Rodrigues
(it's a "fado", the typical portuguese music, singer).
Thanks a lot, your posts are very funny ! (and instructive of course)
Antoniop



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Golden Earring
2017-09-13 11:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi Antonio!

I'm gratified to hear that you appreciate my (slightly droll!) English
sense of humour & equally that you find my posts, which are based upon a
lifetime's interest in music reproduction which started in my teens &
has continued unabated up to my present rather advanced age of 62,
helpful.

I also note that you yourself have a clear sense of what you like,
whether it be drinks or recorded musical offerings!

Now turning to your actual question about loudspeakers! My B&W 805S
stand-mounts are the baby brothers of the 800/801/802/803/804 range of
floor-standing B&W designs (they actually use the 800D model in the
famous Abbey Road Studio #3, which has been the source of many excellent
classical & contemporary recordings over the years. They also use pure
Class A amplifiers from the Canadian manufacturer Classe to drive them,
which are of course fabulous bits of kit but come at an equally fabulous
price, lol): all of these designs are based upon the extraordinary B&W
Nautilus loudspeaker (do check this beast out on Google images if you
haven't seen one - it is definitely a modern work of art in itself... ).
I haven't had the chance to hear a pair of these, but I am assured that
they sound as good as they look! They are a 4-way active design, & the
most unusual shape initially obscures one's realisation that the loading
of all 4 independently-amped drivers have a transmission-line loading.
Incidentally, B&W's trademark "outboard" tweeters all use a
transmission-line loading, hence the tapered shape of the pod. Because
they only operate at HF, the transmission-line does not need to be very
long to give an acceptable practical approximation to the theoretical
infinite transmission-line required by speaker design theory. OTOH, the
single LF driver in my speakers has a bass reflex loading, which comes
with advantages & disadvantages over the sealed-box "infinite baffle"
alternative. The up-side is that *-if-* the designer does his work well
in terms of matching the reflex port length, shape & location to the
electrical & physical characteristics of the driver, & to the shape &
internal volume of the enclosure, the LF extension of the loudspeaker
can be extended by in-phase resonance from the port - indeed, eventually
ALL of the LF is supplied by the port whilst the driver itself is
constrained by the mechanical impedance of the cabinet (this is
completely separate & different from the electrical impedance load of
the loudspeaker which the amplifier sees... ). Obviously, you can only
take this so far with a relatively small stand-mount enclosure & so the
LF response of the speaker eventually begins to roll off, & within the
audible range of much music programme material which is why having a
*-good-* subwoofer (or even better two, as previously explained) can
improve the musicality of your system. The most significant down-side is
that, no matter how carefully designed they are, you will get more LF
non-linearity (distortion), although this is not at a acute range of
human hearing. Also, when they do finally roll off, they go at
6dB/octave which is twice the rate as for a sealed box design.

A 2-way speaker is simply one that has a single crossover frequency
around which the programme material begins to be directed to one driver
(or sometimes in the case of the LF range, a set of drivers all doing
the same thing) or the other. The precise location of the drivers in any
loudspeaker with respect to each other is absolutely critical to
achieving good sound because the designer needs to avoid interfering
phase effects arising from the physical separation of the drivers -
because the crossover frequency is going to be smack in the middle of
the most sensitive range of human hearing (unlike the reflex port
loading discussed above which only comes into play near the lower end of
our hearing capability at which we are less discerning by nature's
design of our ears. So the best approach is to "keep things simple" &
the stand-mount design which will usually only have 1 HF driver
(tweeter) & 1 LF driver (woofer) follows this maxim: this is why good
stand-mount designs often provide the most accurate sound-staging
(stereo image), usually better than that achieved by larger
floor-standing designs which usually have more than 2 drivers... And
why they are well suited to smaller rooms!

The crossover in a passive full-range 2- (or more) way speaker is
exactly that: passive. IOW, it is driven by a single amplifier & has the
job of separating the frequencies between the drivers without the
assistance of any separately-powered circuitry containing
semi-conductors (valves, transistors or integrated circuits): so it will
consist of a combination of resistors, capacitors & inductors only.
Again the best advice is "keep it as simple as possible, but no simpler"
- it has to help to suppress unwanted phase effects arising from the
physical separation of the HF & LF drivers, so the designer may not
choose the very simplest design but rather go for a quicker roll-off
either side of the nominal crossover frequency. This is a highly
technical design issue for the speaker designer & consists of trying to
find the best compromise (which in itself is a subjective issue) usually
through a process involving multiple iterative prototypes before
settling on a final production design. But you also have your own
musical taste & ears, so you should listen to a variety of speakers
until you chance upon a designer (or brand) which has already settled
for the same sort of audible compromise that you would be prepared to
accept yourself when endeavouring to "suspend your disbelief" that these
2 boxes are really making music...

By contrast, subwoofers are always active, that is to say they are
mains-powered & contain active electronic crossovers & often DSP to
extend the lower frequencies by boosting them prior to amplification by
their in-built & generally very powerful Class D power amplifiers. The
DSP is the main reason why the amps need to be so big. The active
crossover enables them to present such a high input impedance that you
can connect them to your amplifier speaker terminals (or to the
terminals on your speakers themselves if it makes the wiring tidier)
*-without-* this having any discernible effect on the sound from your
full-range speakers (with which they are now connected in parallel).

Most decent subwoofers will have both high-level (amplifier speaker
output level) & line level inputs. Which you use shouldn't make a
difference in theory, but the line-level input is really intended for
use with a multi-channel A/V amplifier with a single (mono) subwoofer
output which is controlled by the master volume control. A few stereo
amplifiers have a variable level sub-woofer line output (& even fewer,
e.g. the s/hand Pathos Acoustics INPOL-2 which I'm actively chasing as
we talk, have one for each channel). But they do not filter out the
extreme low frequencies from the signal passed on to the power amplifier
stage (which a multi-channel A/V amplifier will do) in case you have BIG
floor-standers or listen exclusively to string quartet music & elect NOT
to use the subwoofer outputs...

I have a pair of B&W PV1 subwoofers, both of which I acquired s/hand.
When I bought the 1st one around 8 years ago, it was still a current
model so I had to pay £700 for it (still £250 cheaper than a new one!).
However the 2nd one which I bought this year & was made quite a bit
later than my 1st one, only cost £425 because B&W now sell the PV1D
model instead. Of course the older model still works just as well as it
ever did. Apart from reducing the on-board power from 500W to 400W, &
restricting the finishes to black or white (the PV1 also came in silver,
which is my preference since it matches the colour of the stands for my
805S's), B&W have added pre-sets to match the subwoofer to a number of
their full-range speakers (although not mine - they are also long out of
production) & a remote control for fiddling with the settings whilst
you're listening! I maintain that *-if-* you take the time to set your
subwoofers to integrate with your full-range speakers properly in the
1st place, there should be no need to do this, & have it pegged as a
marketing-inspired "innovation" of no real use. The PV1's are not the
cheapest decent subwoofers around, but they are quite pretty (being
spherical), compact & have opposed aluminium-mica 8" drivers in a sealed
enclosure which are compact & lightweight - as a consequence they are
very dynamic & musical. By using 2 of them, albeit in full stereo mode,
the 4 x 8" drivers have the same surface area to rattle the air in my
room as a single 16" cone would have, but *-much-* less cone mass to
start & stop (not to mention no cone break-up since they're metal, lol)
so the final effect is very musical & seamless. If I crank my system up
sufficiently there is ample power to make the metal RSJ's in my concrete
ceiling resonate - I do try to avoid this level of self-indulgence
(whenever possible... ) since the effect would be clearly audible in all
20 of the individual units in my apartment block & it is quite difficult
to arrange for *-all-* of my co-residents to be out at the same time. ;)

So I would advise that you -*can*- get a decent sound quality with good
subwoofers, although I concede that you have to be prepared to fiddle
around with their settings initially to get an acceptably balanced &
non-boomy sound. Now that it's done, I have a pretty but minimalist
system & I can focus my attention on the (nearly!) music which is the
point of the whole endeavour.

Dave :cool:


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Golden Earring
2017-09-19 10:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi all!

I'm much relieved that no-one has taken issue with any of the points
that I have made about loudspeaker design, room acoustics & the art of
selecting the most appropriate type of speaker for your listening space,
which I must confess that I wrote seriously, but "off the top of my
head".

I can only presume that either no-one has read this thread or that there
is broad agreement on the forum (which *-would-* be a first!) for what I
said... ;)

Dave :cool:


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Antoniop
2017-09-19 13:13:32 UTC
Permalink
Golden Earring wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> I'm much relieved that no-one has taken issue with any of the points
> that I have made about loudspeaker design, room acoustics & the art of
> selecting the most appropriate type of speaker for your listening space,
> which I must confess that I wrote seriously, but "off the top of my
> head".
>
> I can only presume that either no-one has read this thread or that there
> is broad agreement on the forum (which *-would-* be a first!) for what I
> said... ;)
>
> Dave :cool:

Hi Dave,
Actually, I wrote a reply, but it was rejected because the quote was too
long (lol) and I didn't notice.
I thank you for the lesson about electro-acoustics, physics, hifi,
electricity and much more !
I'll will not discuss with you about the points you mentioned, if I say
I understood everything, I would be lying.
I also thank you for your excellent and typically English humour. Most
of the cultures have a weak sense of humour, especially regarding the
understanding of the "second degré".
Going back to your excellent post, I understand that your advise is to
buy a pair of good stand-mount speakers with two subwoofers (second hand
is wiser), put a thick rug on the floor, damp my piano, and maybe also
change the excellent porto to a Jack Daniels.
My first intention was to buy a pair of floor-standing, just because I
thought it gives a better sound and I prefer the look of it, but then
with your advice I'll try some stand-mount speakers, preferably from
B&W, it seems to be your favourite brand in England, certainly for a
good reason, while here Focal is very popular and Jean-Marie Reynaud is
famous but also more elitist. And later I'll buy the subwoofers. I don't
think my better half (nice expression) would be happy if I spend all the
money for the holidays in the hifi this year.
Regarding the Transporter, I decided to buy one, as I said in a previous
post ! :)
Antonio



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Golden Earring
2017-09-19 22:21:57 UTC
Permalink
Antoniop wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> My first intention was to buy a pair of floor-standing, just because I
> thought it gives a better sound and I prefer the look of it, but then
> with your advice I'll try some stand-mount speakers, preferably from
> B&W, it seems to be your favourite brand in England, certainly for a
> good reason, while here Focal is very popular and Jean-Marie Reynaud is
> famous but also more elitist.

Hi Antonio!

I do like the B&W 800 series, but both Focal & Sonus Faber make
excellent stand-mounts too.

I must confess I've never heard of the Reynauds - are they utterly
esoteric?

I stand by my personal experience that stand-mount speaker usually
produce the better sound stage in a small listening room: floor-standing
speakers tend to work best in larger spaces, & often need to be spaced
away from any adjacent walls to give their best sound, which again is
not really practical in a modest-sized room...

I hope that you find some speakers that suit the kind of music you
prefer, & your own musical appreciation!

Dave :cool:

P.S. It is an irritation that the forum software does not let you know
you've exceeded its maximum number of words for a post until you think
that you've finished - it's happened to me a couple of times & it can be
difficult to prune your outpouring without losing the flow. Oh well,
very little IS perfect in this life! :D


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Antoniop
2017-09-20 06:20:26 UTC
Permalink
Golden Earring wrote:
> Hi Antonio!
>
> I do like the B&W 800 series, but both Focal & Sonus Faber make
> excellent stand-mounts too.
>
> I must confess I've never heard of the Reynauds - are they utterly
> esoteric?
>
> I stand by my personal experience that stand-mount speaker usually
> produce the better sound stage in a small listening room: floor-standing
> speakers tend to work best in larger spaces, & often need to be spaced
> away from any adjacent walls to give their best sound, which again is
> not really practical in a modest-sized room...
>
> I hope that you find some speakers that suit the kind of music you
> prefer, & your own musical appreciation!
>
> Dave :cool:
>
> P.S. It is an irritation that the forum software does not let you know
> you've exceeded its maximum number of words for a post until you think
> that you've finished - it's happened to me a couple of times & it can be
> difficult to prune your outpouring without losing the flow. Oh well,
> very little IS perfect in this life! :D


Hi Dave,
I've never heard of the Reynauds too, they 've an excellent reputation
but there are not many in the auditoriums. Focal are quite easy to find,
for the less expensive products.

Choosing a pair of speakers will be a loooong process for me, I'm not
easy to make up my mind !
Thanks again for your help
Antonio



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Golden Earring
2017-09-20 09:49:48 UTC
Permalink
Antoniop wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> I've never heard of the Reynauds too, they 've an excellent reputation
> but there are not many in the auditoriums. Focal are quite easy to find,
> for the less expensive products.
>
> Choosing a pair of speakers will be a loooong process for me, I'm not
> easy to make up my mind !
> Thanks again for your help
> Antonio

Hi Antonio!

I don't blame you in the slightest for wanting to take your time over
speaker selection.

Have you got the rest of your system in place? The kind of speakers that
will be likely to sound best in your room are almost certainly 2-way
designs (whether full-range floor-standers, or stand-mounts which will
inevitably be slightly lacking in the bottom octave of the bass register
although with compensating advantages which I hope that I have already
sufficiently explained in my previous posts), & an incidental bonus
because of this is that they are likely to present a relatively well
behaved impedance load on your power amplifier because they usually have
fairly simple passive crossovers.

It is the capacitors & inductors in the crossover network which create
the reactive portion of the loudspeakers impedance (the drivers
themselves present a purely resistive load). The impedance of any
speaker system will vary with frequency & it is often possible to find a
published graph of impedance vs. frequency (either by the speaker
manufacturer themselves or in a decently conducted review of them). No
loudspeaker has a flat impedance curve, but there should be no
pronounced sharp peaks or troughs since the effect of these is likely to
become audible, at least with some programme material. Smaller wobbles &
gentle rises or falls are much less likely to cause the kind of effect
on a music programme that your brain will not quickly learn to
compensate for (the science of psycho-acoustics is not an area in which
I can profess any real technical expertise - suffice to say that it's a
complex subject & one in which our understanding remains less than
total).

From your power amplifier's viewpoint, as it attempts to deliver its
power bandwidth (that's power vs frequency) linearly into the
loudspeaker, it is the reactive element of impedance arising from the
speaker's crossover network that is the part which *-might-* cause some
problems for a lesser amplifier. But the truth is that most amplifiers
currently available are actually pretty good designs (the cut-throat
nature of the audio industry has seen to that) & certainly power
amplifiers with solid-state (bipolar or field effect transistor) output
stages should have no difficulty as long as the impedance doesn't fall
too low - such amps can be switched on with no speakers connected at
all, but will expire rapidly should you contrive to short circuit their
output - so going below their recommended *-minimum-* impedance rating
carries the risk of creating audible instability (although they are
unlikely to actually blow up! :D ). Valve output stages are the opposite
- they will survive a short circuit without any problem, but will start
blowing their output valves quickly if they have no load at all. They
also tend to require more careful speaker matching & may have different
taps of an output transformer for speakers of various nominal
impedances. Some people swear by valve power amplifiers, but they then
seem to spend half their life subsequently "rolling2 tubes & switching
speakers in a never-ending quest for nirvana: the MOSFET's in my Pathos
amp are just fine by me.

The practical matters arising from these issues: 1. it is*- -**-always-*
a good idea to switch all your gear off (& then give the capacitors in
the power supplies a couple of minutes to fully discharge) before adding
or removing any cables; 2. if you are using a solid state amplifier it
is worth putting insulating tape around any metal parts of the amplifier
or speaker posts that are still exposed once the connections are made
(to minimise the risk of an accidental short circuit) &, if you make up
your own speaker cables (as I do from decent oxygen-free copper speaker
wire) it is also a good idea to offset the cable lengths of the +ve &
-ve wires at either end so that if either end of your cabling somehow
becomes detached it is much less likely that the now exposed plugs or
wires will come into contact with each other; & 3. if you are using a
valve amplifier, rig up some form of cable clamping at either end to
make damn sure that neither end of the speaker cable can come loose...

You will obviously have to audition your speakers at a dealership with
demonstration facilities. High-end dealers will usually offer to let you
then have your choice of speaker for extended home trial on the basis
that you can return them in exchange for a different set from their
supported brands if you are not satisfied within that trial period. This
is good dealership practice, but also great salesmanship because firstly
they will expect to sell at full retail price & secondly your
replacement speakers (if any) will also be supplied at full retail
price! In other words, they are guaranteed a high-margin sale as soon as
you sign up for this "service". Your replacement choice would be limited
to the range of brands that they offer, so you have also already
narrowed your options.

My suggestion is that you draw up a "long list" based upon reputable
reviews & peer reports, & then see which of these can be demoed by
dealerships within your accessible range. Then book a short in-house
demo with no commitment & take along some favourite CDs that you are
familiar with for a listening session at no obligation. Even if you like
the sound, tell the dealer that you need to hear other brands that he
doesn't support, & don't let them pressure you into a deal. Add the
speakers you like to your "short list". When you think that you've
auditioned enough brands & have completed your shortlist, then seek out
a dealer who supports as many of your chosen brands as possible, so that
you are purchasing without limiting your options. There still remains
the risk that you may tire of the sound of your full price speakers
*-after-*
your agreed trial period is over.

Or you can take my preferred route & try to get one of your short list
speakers in "as new" condition (with boxes!) s/hand for a substantial
saving on the retail asking price. If you tire of these, you should be
able to sell the**m without substantial loss once you have located a
similar s/hand alternative from your original shortlist (this may
require some patience, but it is a cardinal virtue, lol). And so on.
:rolleyes:

I've had my B&W805S speakers for 8 years now & am very pleased with them
(although I had been unimpressed by B&W other speaker ranges in the
past). I try not to change my gear unless there is a genuine advantage
to be gained in terms of musicality: I'd really rather forget all about
it & enjoy the music...

Good luck whichever path you choose!

Dave :cool:


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drmatt
2017-09-08 12:28:06 UTC
Permalink
Antoniop wrote:
> Then, we're coming back to my point : Should I buy a transporter, that I
> could use as the digital source and the DAC, or use a SBT as a digital
> source with a recent external DAC, such as this one '*Rotel RDD-1580 *'
> (https://www.whathifi.com/rotel/rdd-1580/review)not too pricey, with a
> good amp, like the cambridge cxa60 or the 'Rega Brio'
> (https://www.whathifi.com/rega/brio/review) ?Well exactly, buy the TP if you just like its look or you want to use
its analogue stages, but I wouldn't buy one just as a digital source. If
you're just looking for a digital source you already have one..


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drmatt
2017-09-19 13:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Just to keep everyone guessing, I would personally recommend
floorstanding speakers for music and there's very little need for a
subwoofer.. I do have B&W in mind however..


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Antoniop
2017-09-20 06:08:46 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> Just to keep everyone guessing, I would personally recommend
> floorstanding speakers for music and there's very little need for a
> subwoofer.. I do have B&W in mind however..
>
>
> -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-

Hi Matt,
Thanks for this second advice. I'll try both anyway.



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drmatt
2017-09-20 07:29:45 UTC
Permalink
In truth whatever you choose your ears will adapt to it and unless it's
chronically ill suited to your tastes it will be quite enjoyable.


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Golden Earring
2017-09-22 23:34:19 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> In truth whatever you choose your ears will adapt to it and unless it's
> chronically ill suited to your tastes it will be quite enjoyable.
>
>
> -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-

H Doc!

We are in agreement about many things, & I endorse your statement that
if you sit in the same place in your room your brain will quite quickly
resolve the resonances of your room & reject the delayed reflections
from the walls of your listening space which arrive at your ears later
then the direct sound waves from your loudspeakers.

I can even introduce an evolutionary conjecture (deliberately
so-described because it would be fiendishly difficult to test!) to
justify this position.

Before we were forced to step out onto a savannah (created by global
weather effects, but still very recently in evolutionary terms) our more
distant ancestors would have lived their lives in a chaotic jungle
environment, not unlike my cat who seems to prefer my natural untidiness
& complains vociferous at my admittedly sporadic & generally demotivated
efforts to reduce my clutter! The point being that survival in such an
environment is critically dependent upon one's ability to distinguish
direct from reflected sounds, the alternative being becoming some
unpleasantly large & ferocious predator's lunch which is obviously a
one-way ticket to oblivion...

So you can acoustically treat your listening space to your heart's
content, or use complex DSP software in an attempt to convert it into an
anechoic chamber, but the only effect will be to impress occasional
visitors who are not used to your room's acoustic. Really the only
sensible use of that stuff is in a recording studio so that the recorded
end product has no unusual sonic signature when compared to your other
programme material. OR to stop your neighbours banging on your walls
quite so often if they are getting a lot of low frequency resonance
after your room boundary has stopped all the HF & even MF stuff getting
through. :D

To use a political analogy, as Machiavelli pointed out, it is actually
best to choose your Prince at the outset & stick with him!

Dave :cool:


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JohnB
2017-09-23 11:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Golden Earring wrote:
> So you can acoustically treat your listening space to your heart's
> content, or use complex DSP software in an attempt to convert it into an
> anechoic chamber, but the only effect will be to impress occasional
> visitors who are not used to your room's acoustic. Really the only
> sensible use of that stuff is in a recording studio so that the recorded
> end product has no unusual sonic signature when compared to your other
> programme material. OR to stop your neighbours banging on your walls
> quite so often if they are getting a lot of low frequency resonance
> after your room boundary has stopped all the HF & even MF stuff getting
> through. :D
>

I've dipped into this conversation from time to time and thought I would
comment on this.

That characterization of Digital Room Correction (if that is what you
were referring to) is extremely misleading. Of course, it won't appeal
to everyone but it can make a real and very worthwhile difference.

The aim has nothing at all to do with anechoic chambers or impressing
visitors - but to better represent the music in less than ideal rooms
with domestic constraints. But the how the correction filters are
generated is absolutely critical to the outcome and can make the
difference between something pretty bad and a result that is a great
enhancement and a pleasure to listen to. As a very narrow example, if
you take Acourate (a well regarded program used to generate correction
filters) it aims not to take into account room reflections by (as a
default) only using the first 15ms of the scanned sound in its
calculations. Some people find benefits in reducing this further to,
say, 8ms. No attempt to create an anechoic chamber effect there. The aim
is to improve the smoothness of the perceived frequency and phase
response in a wholly beneficial way and there are very real benefits,
especially in the bass and lower mid areas which can be notoriously and
frustratingly "lumpy".

(I use the InguzDRC plugin with correction filters generated by
Acourate.)



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Golden Earring
2017-09-24 19:24:59 UTC
Permalink
JohnB wrote:
> I've dipped into this conversation from time to time and thought I would
> comment on this.
>
> That characterization of Digital Room Correction (if that is what you
> were referring to) is extremely misleading. Of course, it won't appeal
> to everyone but it can make a real and very worthwhile difference.
>
> The aim has nothing at all to do with anechoic chambers or impressing
> visitors - but to better represent the music in less than ideal rooms
> with domestic constraints. But the how the correction filters are
> generated is absolutely critical to the outcome and can make the
> difference between something pretty bad and a result that is a great
> enhancement and a pleasure to listen to. As a very narrow example, if
> you take Acourate (a well regarded program used to generate correction
> filters) it aims not to take into account room reflections by (as a
> default) only using the first 15ms of the scanned sound in its
> calculations. Some people find benefits in reducing this further to,
> say, 8ms. No attempt to create an anechoic chamber effect there. The aim
> is to improve the smoothness of the perceived frequency and phase
> response in a wholly beneficial way and there are very real benefits,
> especially in the bass and lower mid areas which can be notoriously and
> frustratingly "lumpy".
>
> (I use the InguzDRC plugin with correction filters generated by
> Acourate.)


Hi John!

The problem with our different takes on this issue is the difficulty in
experimentally distinguishing between our opposed viewpoints.

Your room correction will undoubtedly change the soundscape in your
room. However you yourself concede that if it is not done correctly, it
can make matters worse rather than better. OTOH, you believe that it can
make your listening experience more enjoyable when done correctly.

My retort is the obvious one that whilst you may hear a short-term
improvement, over time your brain will simply adjust to its new
listening environment (which will *-measure-* better using microphones &
meters) but will ultimately end up sounding the same through your ears.

If you can dream up an experimental way of testing between these
different conjectures, then all I can say is that you have missed your
true vocation as an experimental physicist. Otherwise, we shall have to
(politely & respectfully, of course) agree to differ since neither case
is provable.

I do intend to install a couple of bass traps to reduce the massive
modal resonance of my square concrete box of a listening room (Concrete
floor + beam & concrete ceiling which is the floor for the tenant above)
in order to partially eliminate the modal resonance between the floor &
ceiling which are less than 8' apart, both for my own benefit & that of
my long-suffering fellow inmates. :D

I also intend to get my subwoofers up off the floor in an attempt to
acoustically decouple them from the floor.

I'm not opposed to DSP in principle - it is used to great effect in my
pair of PV1 subwoofers (which have opposed 8" aluminium mica long-throw
drivers in a sealed enclosure driven by a beefy 500W Class D amplifier
each, a lot of this power is used to increase the LF extension to
splendid effect.

It's simply that having listened to my system from the same location for
8 years now, I appear to be oblivious to the various minor room
resonances. When I listened to a "sweep test" on an audio test CD all I
heard was a series of constant pitch tones of progressively decreasing
frequency, *-all at exactly the same amplitude-*, at least for practical
purposes, except for the lowest tone which sounded about twice as loud,
corresponding I presume to the dreaded standing wave resonance between
my solid floor & ceiling. Which I think illustrates my point: I am sure
that my room would not register a flat acoustic if measured with test
equipment.

Dave :cool:


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drmatt
2017-09-20 10:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Speaker drivers are incredibly reactive to input frequency and this is
what drives the varying impedance of most speaker cabinets. Physics
dictates this. It's easy to push a cone that's oscillating at its
resonant frequency and very hard to push it significantly faster than
this.

Not that any of this matters to the end user.

One factor not thus far discussed is that in small rooms sitting fairly
close to speakers you can wind up in a near field monitor type scenario,
whereby the sound coming to your ears is predominantly direct from the
speakers rather than standing waves or reflected off other room
surfaces. Add in large amount of typical living room furniture and that
means you can quite successfully have large speakers in small rooms, as
long as you sit in the right place.. this probably explains why I get
away with a pair of 804s in a small room fed by a Naim amp.



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Golden Earring
2017-09-20 18:52:24 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> Speaker drivers are incredibly reactive to input frequency and this is
> what dominates the varying impedance of most speaker cabinets. Physics
> dictates this. It's easy to push a cone that's oscillating at its
> resonant frequency and very hard to push it significantly faster than
> this. The crossover electronics should not be a major part of this
> phenomenon.
>
> Not that any of this matters to the end user.
>
> One factor not thus far discussed is that in small rooms sitting fairly
> close to speakers you can wind up in a near field monitor type scenario,
> whereby the sound coming to your ears is predominantly direct from the
> speakers rather than standing waves or reflected off other room
> surfaces. Add in large amount of typical living room furniture and that
> means you can quite successfully have large speakers in small rooms, as
> long as you sit in the right place.. this probably explains why I get
> away with a pair of 804s in a small room fed by a Naim amp.
>
>
>
> -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-

Hi Doc!

I must confess that I have been bamboozled into thinking that the
mechanical impedance of the speaker cabinet was a separate phenomenon (&
I thought, a mostly resistive effect causing dissipation of unusable
power as heat energy in the voice coil that is mechanically prevented
from moving by the inertia of the air within the speaker enclosure) from
electrical impedance. Perhaps I have misunderstood this.

Your 804's are really not that much bigger than my 805's, & are probably
less affected by being placed close-ish to neighbouring walls than
larger floor-standers, although there must be some bass reinforcement
from this.

Studio oriented near-field monitors are intended for close range
listening for sure (primarily by ensuring that the drivers in them
integrate well at a very short listening distance), but the mixing desk
one is meant to be sitting at when using them (which they would be
sitting right on top of) would not ideally itself be jammed up against a
wall. I think that this is a separate issue from domestic listening room
acoustics, with respect.

I'm not meaning to be unnecessarily argumentative, just seeking clarity
myself really. As long as you're getting a musical experience that suits
you, that's fine really...

Dave :cool:


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drmatt
2017-09-21 14:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi again.

Yes, the driver plus its cabinet defines the resonance properties of the
transducer and that defines the observed impedance much more than the
crossover electronics does, I believe. If you have scope to test it,
replace the speaker drivers with an 8 ohm resistor and look at the
flatness of the impedance profile!

The 804s are much larger.. the 805s have a single combined bass/mid
driver while the 804s have a pair of 6" woofers for bass alone and a
separate 6" FST midrange, both in separate compartments within the body
of the speaker. The bass section has a front firing bass port, which
does certainly make the speaker less badly behaved in the corner of a
room though. The 804 is the same diameter as the 805 though, so the
midrange cabinet is broadly similar, though in the 804 it doesn't have
to handle anything below 200hz..




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Antoniop
2017-09-21 14:53:32 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> Hey, lots to talk about and learn, always. Me too, I'm not implying
> otherwise!
>
> Yes, the driver plus its cabinet defines the resonance properties of the
> transducer and that defines the observed impedance much more than the
> crossover electronics does, I believe. If you have scope to test it,
> replace the speaker drivers with an 8 ohm resistor and look at the
> flatness of the impedance profile! I'm no expert, but you can't dismiss
> the physical resonance of the speaker cone.
>
> But.. the 804s are much larger.. the 805s have a single combined
> bass/mid driver while the 804s each have a pair of 6" woofers for bass
> alone and a separate 6" FST midrange, both in separate compartments
> within the body of the speaker. The bass section has a front firing bass
> port, which does certainly make the speaker less badly behaved in the
> corner of a room though. The 804 is the same diameter as the 805 though,
> so the midrange cabinet is broadly similar, though in the 804 it doesn't
> have to handle anything below 200hz..
>
> I have found that standmount speakers are more "resonant" in the deep
> bass to compensate for their lack of physical volume, which can produce
> a pleasing simulation of bass but is likely less accurate. I've usually
> found floorstanders actually have tighter but better extended bass
> response, even if there's no more sheer dBs on offer.
>
> I've also found that b&w midrange drivers open up a lot when they don't
> have to handle deep bass or if you bung up the bass port to provide a
> little more damping. I believe that's the same advantage the 804 has
> over the 805. You are no doubt getting the same effect by using
> subwoofers....!
>
> -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-

Hi all, your discussion is bit too technical for me, but what I take
notice from your excellent remarks is that the room size and
characteristics have their importance, because showrooms are usually
larger than my room and they can give a false impression at listening,
so I shouldn't choose speakers too powerful. So sometimes the best is
not the better (hum, is it correct english ?).
On the other side, if I spend a lot of money (from my point of view, 2K€
is a lot of money) on these speakers, I wouldn't like to have to change
them if I move to a larger house, or I move them to a larger room.
Everything is a compromise, as usual.
As for the amp, I don't think I will have a valve amp, they're too
pricey. I would be very happy with something like the Rega Elex-R, which
has very good reviews. Is it powerful enough ?
Since I already have a DAC (the transporter), that will be all my hifi
investment for now.
Cheers
Antonio



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Golden Earring
2017-09-22 09:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi all!

I've got a few things to say (surprisingly!!), but my life is on fire
atm for reasons utterly beyond my control - my preferred approach to
life these days runs along the "manyana, but without the same sense of
urgency" lines. :D

I'll get back on this when I get a moment, lol.

Dave :cool:


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davidovada
2017-09-22 11:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Ciao, Antonio
Not sure if you've made your purchase. I have a used Transporter(with
knob) in black color(silver handles) for sale in Italia at correct
price. If you're interested just let me know.

grazie - david


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Antoniop
2017-09-24 13:46:01 UTC
Permalink
davidovada wrote:
> Ciao, Antonio
> Not sure if you've made your purchase. I have a used Transporter(with
> knob) in black color(silver handles) for sale in Italia at correct
> price. If you're interested just let me know.
>
> grazie - david

Hi David,
Thanks for the offer, but I'm sorry I already ordered mine.
Antonio



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drmatt
2017-09-24 20:45:09 UTC
Permalink
No, I do think that a well done room correction would always be a good
thing. Like human perception of white balance (or rather colour
constancy) though you always know what colour things are in a scene the
overall white balance is perceived as a mood rather than a colour shift.
Fix the white balance and you change the mood without changing the
perceived image itself..


-Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-



--
Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with
Debian+LMS 7.9.0
Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k
albums..
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Golden Earring
2017-09-24 21:03:05 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> No, I do think that a well done room correction would always be a good
> thing. Like human perception of white balance (or rather colour
> constancy) though you always know what colour things are in a scene the
> overall white balance is perceived as a mood rather than a colour shift.
> Fix the white balance and you change the mood without changing the
> perceived image itself..
>
>
> -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-

Hi Doc!

Yet again, I find myself chewing the fat with you, in a respectful way,
of course.

As a keen amateur photographer, I am well aware of the concept of white
balance, which is why I always process the raw images from my Nikon DSLR
in Adobe Lightroom before (sometimes!) exporting them as JPEGs to
Photoshop for the stuff that Lightroom won't do.

Nevertheless, still photographic images are intended to make an instant,
almost subliminal assault upon your visual faculties, which is a totally
different thing to using your music system on a regular basis to listen
to continuously & constantly changing music programmes.

So I stand by my previously stated opinion, whilst accepting that I
cannot disprove your position any more than you can disprove mine...

Dave :cool:


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drmatt
2017-09-24 21:29:43 UTC
Permalink
If I could be bothered I'd try it out.. happy with what I have though.
Like calibrating a TV, I can't see it ever being a bad thing though.
Just wish it was easier to get right on a hifi context. Doddle in an AV
context of course.


-Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-



--
Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with
Debian+LMS 7.9.0
Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k
albums..
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Golden Earring
2017-09-24 23:02:48 UTC
Permalink
drmatt wrote:
> If I could be bothered I'd try it out.. happy with what I have though.
> Like calibrating a TV, I can't see it ever being a bad thing, adding the
> finishing touch. Just wish it was easier to get right in a hifi context.
> A complete doddle in an AV context of course.
>
>
> -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-

Roger that! A/V is DSP all down the line, else it wouldn't work at all.

I've resisted the temptation myself so far, simply because of all the
extra amps + speaker cables which are hard to hide in an 11.2
configuration. lol

And the 3D which both my 46" Bravia .TV & my Panasonic HDD/BD-R dual
Freeview HD gizmo support has now gone out of fashion - what do you gain
with surround sound when the image (4K or not!) is firmly planted in
front of you?

I CAN see the point with immersive VR video games - but at the same
time, I predict an increase in domestic accidents - for God's sake ditch
the glass coffee table, it could kill you if you fall through it whilst
engrossed in a different universe...

Dave :cool:

P.S. Before you dismiss me as a total dinosaur I HAVE signed up to the
Kickstarter campaign for the Yarra 3D sound-bar (+subwoofer) as
championed by Dr Aix himself (aka Dr Mark Walthrop) - I'm down $299 as
we speak, it's scheduled to ship in March 2018. If it's a scam they
deserve my money for such a convincing effort! Quietly confident that
I'll get it - obviously I'll let you all know if it actually works,
lol...


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