[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

[ralphpnj]

So as the article says, is the honeymoon over for MQA?

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/highresaudio-to-stop-offering-mqa/?utm_source=Default+Hi-Fi%2B+List&utm_campaign=4dc42b8f8f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_03_14&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ff6dfd0295-4dc42b8f8f-162614149

First PonoMusic and now this. Hey all my objectivitist (sp?) friends it
looks like we are starting to make some headway against the
subjectivitists.



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[Wombat]

I don't think you should take everything they claim to serious. Even now
i still see ECM MQA sold at their store. It may simply be something like
the licencing for them makes the profit per sold unit unattractive. Once
this is sorted they will tell you how good it is.
Also i never saw them distancing from selling UMGs watermarked
"lossless" studio masters. Funny if you imagine UMGs MQA may still have
this watermark in :)



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[ralphpnj]

Post by Wombat
I don't think you should take everything they claim to serious. Even now
i still see ECM MQA sold at their store. It may simply be something like
the licencing for them makes the profit per sold unit unattractive. Once
this is sorted they will tell you how good it is.
Also i never saw them distancing from selling UMGs watermarked
"lossless" studio masters. Funny if you imagine UMGs MQA may still have
this watermark in :)

Everything you said may indeed prove true but of the time being we get
to enjoy a small victory.



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[Wombat]

Ops, totaly forgot to make fun out of the pono promise.
For all that don't know this FANpage enjoy http://www.ponosucks.com



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[Golden Earring]

Post by Wombat
Ops, totaly forgot to make fun out of the pono promise.
For all that don't know this FANpage enjoy http://www.ponosucks.com

Thanks for the link on that Wombat!

Gave me a good laugh while I was waiting for my painkillers to kick
in...

Ok, it did hurt a bit to laugh, but it was worth it :D

Dave :)


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[Archimago]

Indeed Wombat, thanks for the links and the laughs... I still have my
black Pono sitting on my shelf for the memories.

I don't know if this is a victory whether Pono or Highresaudio not
selling MQA for objectivists per se. I hope it is a victory for
consumers being educated about bullshit and voting with their wallets.
That's how capitalism should work. If the Emperor has no clothes, he
should be called out on it. Apparently Neil was surfing with his shorts
down as the tide went out :eek:.

Anyone know if Neil has made any official statement BtW?



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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Indeed Wombat, thanks for the links and the laughs... I still have my
black Pono sitting on my shelf for the memories.
I don't know if this is a victory whether Pono or Highresaudio not
selling MQA for objectivists per se. I hope it is a victory for
consumers being educated about bullshit and voting with their wallets.
That's how capitalism should work. If the Emperor has no clothes, he
should be called out on it. Apparently Neil was surfing with his shorts
down as the tide went out :eek:.
Anyone know if Neil has made any official statement BtW?

I think that your optimism about consumers being educated is just a
little bit off after all Beats are still the number one selling
headphones and by a very wide margin. I think that it's less about
rejecting high resolution audio per se and more about just not needing a
media player other than their smart phone (in the case of Pono) in
addition to being told that to truly appreciate hi-rez audio they would
need better (and more expensive) playback equipment.

That last part comes from the simple fact that when a "high resolution"
audio file is played back on their smart phone and Beats headphones they
can't hear any difference from their mp3 version and so the industry's
answer is to try and sell them something. Doesn't seem to be working
just like 3D HDTV didn't work.



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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
I think that your optimism about consumers being educated is just a
little bit off after all Beats are still the number one selling
headphones and by a very wide margin. I think that it's less about
rejecting high resolution audio per se and more about just not needing a
media player other than their smart phone (in the case of Pono) in
addition to being told that to truly appreciate hi-rez audio they would
need better (and more expensive) playback equipment.
That last part comes from the simple fact that when a "high resolution"
audio file is played back on their smart phone and Beats headphones they
can't hear any difference from their mp3 version and so the industry's
answer is to try and sell them something. Doesn't seem to be working
just like 3D HDTV didn't work.

No need to be so pessimistic Ralph!

I totally understand that the common teenager/young adult music listener
isn't necessarily into high fidelity and won't care. Fashion rules in
that space. But the ones who do care about fidelity - the ones who might
be intrigued by "high resolution" as promoted by Neil Young or would
look at product specs to check out MQA - those people can be "reached".
Likewise the serious music lover - guys who would wander into Steve
Hoffman Forums for example - I know those guys also understand that
there is more than a little hype. Finally, I do believe when you look at
places like Stereophile and AudioStream website, people are getting more
than a little sick of the BS.

When the audiophile magazines see that serious "hi-fi" lovers "get it",
they will change.

The predictable death of Pono and likely gradual tarnishing of MQA are
useful reminders to audiophiles the ridiculous hype being perpetuated.
At some point, I think we reach a point where "faith" is lost and the
religion of the "high end" will crumble.

Stay the course, Ralph :-).



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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
No need to be so pessimistic Ralph!
I totally understand that the common teenager/young adult music listener
isn't necessarily into high fidelity and won't care. Fashion rules in
that space. But the ones who do care about fidelity - the ones who might
be intrigued by "high resolution" as promoted by Neil Young or would
look at product specs to check out MQA - those people can be "reached".
Likewise the serious music lover - guys who would wander into Steve
Hoffman Forums for example - I know those guys also understand that
there is more than a little hype. Finally, I do believe when you look at
places like Stereophile and AudioStream website, people are getting more
than a little sick of the BS.
When the audiophile magazines see that serious "hi-fi" lovers "get it",
they will change.
The predictable death of Pono and likely gradual tarnishing of MQA are
useful reminders to audiophiles the ridiculous hype being perpetuated.
At some point, I think we reach a point where "faith" is lost and the
religion of the "high end" will crumble.
Stay the course, Ralph :-).

I attended Head-fi's CanJam in early February in NYC and headphone
enthusiasts tend to be young and are often considered the next
generation of audiophiles. Based on what I show and heard at CanJam I
would say that both of us are just a little off in our predictions about
the coming death of high end audio. CanJam was filled with all the usual
audio voodoo, which I'm sad to say was being swallowed many of the
attendees. Lots of after market cables, lots of Tidal streaming (with
and without MQA), plenty of over priced DACs and amps and of course all
kinds of headphones. Perhaps many of the next generation audiophiles
will "get it" and reject at least some of the more outlandish high end
audio dogma but I'm pretty sure that quite a bit of this nonsense will
make it through and continue being believed.



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[arnyk]

No need to be so pessimistic]
The predictable death of Pono and likely gradual tarnishing of MQA are
useful reminders to audiophiles the ridiculous hype being perpetuated.
At some point, I think we reach a point where "faith" is lost and the
religion of the "high end" will crumble.
.

I'd suggest the converse, based on an analysis of the same evidence
plus my own life's experience.

For example, computer audio was relatively free of placebophiles until
about 5-7 years ago. Most really serious computer audio hardware were
professional tools, and as long as a product category mainly appeals to
professionals, a fairly large dollop of pragmatism goes with it. OK,
there was a little trickle of regular high end products but it was
relatively speaking a trickle.

Now, the influx of snake oil has taken over the computer audio market,
and placebo dependent products like magic USB and LAN cables are in
their way, mainstream in the computer audiophile market. One other clear
symptom of that is the advent of a large market of high-priced earphones
and headphones.

In the mid 1970s there was one of the first attempts to add rationality
to the audio market by popularizing bias-controlled listening test in
the form of ABX Comparators. Starting around year 2000, a particularly
effective form of ABX Comparators entirely based on low-cost and no-cost
Windows software was brought to the marketplace.

Today, there is no lack of software availability. There are dozens for
Windows and Google Play Store shows at least 2 that even run on
commodity and high end cell phones. Yet, accounts of their use are like
hen's teeth on the web. They are highly convincing, especially when the
audiophile uses them to do their own tests. But, people have got to
actually use them.


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[mlsstl]

"Placebophiles" -- I like it... ;-)


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[cliveb]

Post by arnyk
Today, there is no lack of software availability. There are dozens for
Windows and Google Play Store shows at least 2 that even run on
commodity and high end cell phones. Yet, accounts of their use are like
hen's teeth on the web. They are highly convincing, especially when the
audiophile uses them to do their own tests. But, people have got to
actually use them.

Audiophiles aren't going to use ABX tests, because so-called high end
audio operates much like religions: it requires faith over and above
rational analysis. Consider a devout Christian/Muslim/Jew/etc who is
offered the chance to take a test that will prove beyond any doubt the
existence or otherwise of God. They're not going to take that test,
because it puts at risk their investment in a belief system. Audiophiles
who buy in to the snake oil ideas are in pretty much the same position.

And of course they have a get out clause: the high priests of
audiophilia tell them that ABX tests are inherently flawed, so they have
a rational (to them) reason not to take them.



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[ralphpnj]

Post by cliveb
Audiophiles aren't going to use ABX tests, because so-called high end
audio operates much like religions: it requires faith over and above
rational analysis. Consider a devout Christian/Muslim/Jew/etc who is
offered the chance to take a test that will prove beyond any doubt the
existence or otherwise of God. They're not going to take that test,
because it puts at risk their investment in a belief system. Audiophiles
who buy in to the snake oil ideas are in pretty much the same position.
And of course they have a get out clause: the high priests of
audiophilia tell them that ABX tests are inherently flawed, so they have
a rational (to them) reason not to take them.

Nicely stated. Plus throw in some additional nonsense like "the reason
why you can't a difference between a high bit rate mp3 and a flac file
or between a CD quality flac file and high resolution flac file is that
the playback system is not high end enough" and you've constructed an
almost bullet proof belief system.

I do see an interesting parallel between that of hi-rez audio versus CD
quality audio and that of digital audio versus analog audio - in that in
the early days of CDs I was always amazed when I played an LP only to
find that it really sounded quite good, less convenient to be sure, but
not all that terrible sounding. The same thing is probably happening now
with CD quality or even well made mp3s, in that upon close listening
they sound pretty darn good, so good in fact that the hi-rez version
doesn't offer a clearly better sound. And without a clearly better sound
to justify the high price one's money tends to stay in one's wallet.

As for high priced earphones and headphones - the up side is that better
sound quality is coming to much less expensive earphones and headphones.
I heard plenty of great sounding headphones and even one set of amazing
planar magnetic earphones at CanJam. For me the price point at which the
differences in audio quality between headphones becomes smaller and
smaller is around $1000. For example the difference between the $1,000
Focal Elear headphone versus their $4,000 Utopia headphone is more of
build quality rather than audio quality. And the Elear headphone is
quite well made.

*Disclaimer: since all of my listening at CanJam was sighted and not
very well controlled do not place any value on my observations.*



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[Mnyb]

Anyone considered that that the sq of an iPhone 6 is rather good,
ability to drive certian headphones can be limited but not a bad source
:)

There is simply no piont getting a special portable player for most
people even people who actually cares .

Pono should have made a stationary device to , if they wanted to sell
hardware rather than just files ? ( never understood the hardware
offering , why not just a music store ? )
And some app for our popular mobile OS.



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[arnyk]

Post by cliveb
Audiophiles aren't going to use ABX tests, because so-called high end
audio operates much like religions: it requires faith over and above
rational analysis. Consider a devout Christian/Muslim/Jew/etc who is
offered the chance to take a test that will prove beyond any doubt the
existence or otherwise of God. They're not going to take that test,
because it puts at risk their investment in a belief system. Audiophiles
who buy in to the snake oil ideas are in pretty much the same position.
And of course they have a get out clause: the high priests of
audiophilia tell them that ABX tests are inherently flawed, so they have
a rational (to them) reason not to take them.

You are absolutely right about that, especially as applied to true, dyed
in the wool audiophiles.

I still remember the first anti-ABX comment I ever heard back in the
late 1970s. The guy (a high end dealer) said: I don't believe in ABX. I
said nothing because he was obviously in an irrational frame of mind.
Reason does nothing at such times. Up until then I had never thought
that good generally accepted science was up for a test based on what
someone wanted to believe. In time I learned that this was not
uncommon.

I'm thinking about those who have not yet made the leap of faith to
become placebophiles.


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[Archimago]

I'm actually not worried about the proliferation of expensive goods.
Financial disparity is getting worse in this world at least for now and
there will always be the very rich who will go for price-no-object goods
in that part of the market. Sure, many will purchase audio equipment as
beautiful pieces of furniture, jewelry, and bragging rights.

But what I believe we can achieve is to marginalize the truly ridiculous
even further by shedding light on the nonsense of hundreds/thousand
dollar cables, companies like Synergistic I suspect are in decline
(notice the gradual decline of ads and website write-ups), reminding
people of how technology (especially digital audio) actually works, and
questioning the unwise proclamations of the high priests in ways that
hopefully allow the silent majority watching from the sidelines to see
their ridiculous stance.

I think all of us here recognize ourselves as "audiophiles" but we don't
need to be "high end" audiophiles as the magazines proclaim. I suspect
the "high end" is weak and we can promote a kind of "audiophilia" which
can accommodate the "love" of audio and the hardware, but dissociates
the claims of sound quality from price, belief in voodoo, and can speak
out against the unnecessary/detrimental like MQA.



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[arnyk]

BTW: Speaking of the marginalizability of "high end" audio and the high
priests, did anyone else see the video feature of Herb Reichert?
http://www.stereophile.com/content/reviewer-video-profile-herb-reichert

Based on your comments Mr. A, I watched it.

Geez. I don't think many people would post nasty comments due to respect
of human idiosyncrasies but just look at that... My wife would be
horrified if this guy was some kind of role model. I would be horrified
if my kids thought this was "cool". Notice there was barely room to
move. Notice too no shot of his listening room to give us an idea of the
size or whether reviews are done in a space that's reasonably treated
for acoustics!

Reading between the lines, I get the feeling that this is also JA's
neighborhood. My first reaction is that like most of the close in NYC
area, its a smelly $#!^ hole. I've spent enough time in NYC that my
brain filled in the sounds and smells that go with the pictures. So I'm
thinking who are you, Detroit-boy to cast stones? Fact is that the
population density around here is low enough that the place blows clear
due to the natural forces of nature. There are just too many sources of
pollution (IOW people) in the near-in NYC area for that to happen
there.

I agree with you. BTW compared to my experiences with some other
well-known SP staff like Fremer, this guy is Mr. personality. His audio
systems and his so-called audio lab appear to be artifacts of the 1970s.
The brand names and model names have changed but the basic technology is
pretty much the same. We both have Heathkit 'scopes, but mine is not in
use and hasn't been used for decades.


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[ftlight]

Post by arnyk
Reading between the lines, I get the feeling that this is also JA's
neighborhood. My first reaction is that like most of the close in NYC
area, its a smelly $#!^ hole. I've spent enough time in NYC that my
brain filled in the sounds and smells that go with the pictures. So I'm
thinking who are you, Detroit-boy to cast stones? Fact is that the
population density around here is low enough that the place blows clear
due to the natural forces of nature. There are just too many sources of
pollution (IOW people) in the near-in NYC area for that to happen
there.

Bed-Stuy is undergoing gentrification, as are many parts of Brooklyn,
Manhattan now being completely unaffordable for most people.

https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20160510/bed-stuy/bed-stuy-ranks-no-7-citys-top-gentrifying-neighborhoods-report

I suspect that Herb has a rent-controlled apartment, and it would be
almost impossible for him to move to another place. I have a friend in
Brooklyn in a similar situation, although he's in the rather nicer
section of Brooklyn Heights.


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[ftlight]

Post by Archimago
I think all of us here recognize ourselves as "audiophiles" but we don't
need to be "high end" audiophiles as the magazines proclaim. I suspect
the "high end" is weak and we can promote a kind of "audiophilia" which
can accommodate the "love" of audio and the hardware, but dissociates
the claims of sound quality from price, belief in voodoo, and can speak
out against the unnecessary/detrimental like MQA.

"Rational Audiophiles", perhaps?


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[Archimago]

Post by ftlight
"Rational Audiophiles", perhaps?

Nice. I like that - the -rational audiophile-.



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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Nice. I like that - the -rational audiophile-.

Ranks right up there with some other oxymorons like "military
intelligence" and "elevated subway"



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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
Ranks right up there with some other oxymorons like "military
intelligence" and "elevated subway"

Let's try to change that Ralph! Promote another "option", "path",
"school" to follow in the public Forums and Marketplaces...

Men (usually) of distinction willing to submit to reason, objectivity,
and scientific techniques like ABX and blind testing to adjudicate
hardware fidelity. Able to use intellect to debate without spite. Able
to acknowledge opinion from fact. Willing to call out falsehoods in the
media and from Industry claims. Yet acknowledge the subjectivity of
esthetics whether it be in the music we enjoy, the creature comforts of
the hardware, the appearance of milled fasciae, and all sorts of other
"non-utilitarian" functions of the sound system in our homes and in our
possession because we can accept ultimately the joy of satisfaction in
whichever way this hobby achieves for each individual.

This "path" has always been there all along of course despite the
"mainstream" subjective-based ridicule, ignorance, and heavy-handed
"banning" of such viewpoints. Times are changing for better or worse
(probably both). And I think in audiophileland, the "rational
audiophile" can significantly impact the hobby for the good. The
Internet is the tool for affecting the masses.

I believe the path of the "subjectivist audiophile" is weak, ignorant,
and clearly rests on an unstable foundation based on nothing but -faith-
in false or grossly intellectually compromised idols and idiosyncratic
"high priests".

That's my rallying cry for the "rational audiophile".

:-)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Julf]

Post by Archimago
I believe the path of the "subjectivist audiophile" is weak, ignorant,
and clearly rests on an unstable foundation based on nothing but -faith-
in false or grossly intellectually compromised idols and idiosyncratic
"high priests"

I agree. Unfortunately that is a very popular path these days (not just
in audio matters). Anti-intellectualism is doing all too well.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Let's try to change that Ralph! Promote another "option", "path",
"school" to follow in the public Forums and Marketplaces...
Men (usually) of distinction willing to submit to reason, objectivity,
and scientific techniques like ABX and blind testing to adjudicate
hardware fidelity. Able to use intellect to debate without spite. Able
to acknowledge opinion from fact. Willing to call out falsehoods in the
media and from Industry claims. Yet acknowledge the subjectivity of
esthetics whether it be in the music we enjoy, the creature comforts of
the hardware, the appearance of milled fasciae, and all sorts of other
"non-utilitarian" functions of the sound system in our homes and in our
possession because we can accept ultimately the joy of satisfaction in
whichever way this hobby achieves for each individual.
This "path" has always been there all along of course despite the
"mainstream" subjective-based ridicule, ignorance, and heavy-handed
"banning" of such viewpoints. Times are changing for better or worse
(probably both). And I think in audiophileland, the "rational
audiophile" can significantly impact the hobby for the good. The
Internet is the tool for affecting the masses.
I believe the path of the "subjectivist audiophile" is weak, ignorant,
and clearly rests on an unstable foundation based on nothing but -faith-
in false or grossly intellectually compromised idols and idiosyncratic
"high priests".
That's my rallying cry for the "rational audiophile".
:-)

Nice missive however you seem to have forgotten that the anti-science
political party here in the US now has complete control of the
government and by extension the mood of the country and the people. So
basically science is now like religion and one has the option of
choosing whether or not to believe in science. Even worse is that one
can even choose to believe in certain parts of science while rejecting
other parts. So for audiophiles this means one can believe in
measurements when it comes to bit depth and sample rates (as in digital
audio) but not when to comes to harmonic distortion (as in tubes versus
solid state).



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[Julf]

for audiophiles this means one can believe in measurements when it comes
to bit depth and sample rates (as in digital audio) but not when to
comes to harmonic distortion (as in tubes versus solid state).

And even for bit depth and sample rates, it becomes a simplistic
pseudo-science application of numbers based on "bigger is better".



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Julf]

Oh, and just after I posted that I saw the World Health Organization
warning about measles making a comeback in the western world due to
people not vaccinating their children...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Julf
And even for bit depth and sample rates, it becomes a simplistic
pseudo-science application of numbers based on "bigger is better".

Correction:

In America in the year 2017 all science is now pseudo-science and one is
free to believe the science or not, depending on how the science may
effect one's bottom line.



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[Mnyb]

Post by ralphpnj
In America in the year 2017 all science is now pseudo-science and one is
free to believe the science or not, depending on how the science may
effect one's bottom line.

One of the wonderfull things about scientific results is that they are
true even if you don’t like them or believe in them . Heck even if no
one believes in them or likes them :)

Hence in the past before our brave new post-truth world leaders did
carefully evaluate thier advisors words in matters they did not
them-self grasped and accepted advice that was even against their belief
system .

The fact that folks in the most climate influencing country in the world
denies the climate disaster is just psychology ? Living in denial is the
word .
If a truth has little value to you its easier to accept . If its
emotionally disturbing and/or have greate impact on your lifestyle its a
harder pill to swallow...



--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Bedroom/Office: Boom
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Misc use: Radio (with battery)
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphpnj]

.....
BTW: Speaking of the marginalizability of "high end" audio and the high
priests, did anyone else see the video feature of Herb Reichert?
http://www.stereophile.com/content/reviewer-video-profile-herb-reichert
Geez. I don't think many people would post nasty comments due to respect
of human idiosyncrasies but just look at that... My wife would be
horrified if this guy was some kind of role model. I would be horrified
if my kids thought this was "cool". Notice there was barely room to
move. Notice too no shot of his listening room to give us an idea of the
size or whether reviews are done in a space that's reasonably treated
for acoustics!

Wow so I finally got around to watching the video and all I can say is
how do I get those 10 wasted minutes back? Another old guy living in the
past with outdated audio equipment from his youth.

It seems that anything related to digital audio, not to mention computer
audio and streaming, has never been able to penetrate the "bunker's"
defenses. Poor Herb just seems like a sad and lonely old man.



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[drmatt]

Cor, using intellect without spite? Bring it on!



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[Archimago]

Post by drmatt
Cor, using intellect without spite? Bring it on!

Absolutely! No need to have "a -desire -to hurt, annoy, or offend
someone".

Some people will be hurt or upset no matter what anyone says but there's
no -need -for arguments to go that direction. We don't need to hold a
position where that is a desired outcome nor catalyze that.

Like I said, I think the subjectivist position has been weakened
substantially over the years. Many subjectivists are reasonable folks
who I believe will acknowledge the limitations of positions the
"mainstream" audiophile writers take and will appreciate when examples
are shown to demonstrate the fallacies.

Now as for the comments expressed so far about politics and the
anti-science political party. I actually don't worry about it and
personally don't mind. Truth and change comes when there are challenges
placed before humanity. An anti-science position, so long as the regime
does not turn into some kind of fascist rule (which IMO it won't)
provides an opportunity to find reason. Otherwise if everyone agrees it
ends up being one of complacency... Did audiophilia become any more
rational, or did radical creationists weaken over the 8 years of Obama's
presidency? :-)

To get back on topic. Look at MQA now. They're digging the bottom of the
barrel in introducing MQA CD's. As I expressed in my blog post this
week, I see this as weakness. Their return on investment I suspect is
looking rather poor with 1st quarter 2017 in the books. Who knows, maybe
TIDAL had a small increase in sign-ups with the introduction of MQA in
January; but I'd be surprised they're seeing the benefits in the bottom
line. Let's see if they dare introduce another increase in fee for a
"Master" audio streaming tier! Remember, MQA streaming does require 30%
higher bandwidth and storage compared to FLAC lossless.

Bit by bit, the "sacred cows" of subjective audiophilia can be exposed
for what they are. With the power of the Internet at everyone's
disposal, the traditional media is in decline and it's not hard to have
a "rational audiophile" voice be heard these days. All in good time :-).



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[Julf]

Many subjectivists are reasonable folks who I believe will acknowledge
the limitations of positions the "mainstream" audiophile writers take
and will appreciate when examples are shown to demonstrate the
fallacies.

Whenever I start thinking that I just have a quick look over at CA... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
....
Now as for the comments expressed so far about politics and the
anti-science political party. I actually don't worry about it and
personally don't mind. Truth and change comes when there are challenges
placed before humanity. An anti-science position, so long as the regime
does not turn into some kind of fascist rule (which IMO it won't)
provides an opportunity to find reason. Otherwise if everyone agrees it
ends up being one of complacency... Did audiophilia become any more
rational, or did radical creationists weaken over the 8 years of Obama's
presidency? :-)
...

The whole reason behind sounding the climate change alarm is to try and
mitigate the harmful effects of those changes before they become
irreversible. Oh sure once the effects of climate change become
undeniable to even the most diehard climate change denier "truth and
change" will come however the earth doesn't have time to wait around for
that moment of truth to appear.

Denying science when it comes to audio is just not the same as denying
science when it comes the health and well being of the human species.

Post by Archimago
Whenever I start thinking that I just have a quick look over at CA... :)

How true, how true.



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[cliveb]

... however the earth doesn't have time to wait around for that moment
of truth to appear.

Actually the Earth *does* have plenty of time to deal with it. It's the
human race that doesn't.

If we stuff up the global climate enough to wipe out mankind (and
possibly take out some other innocent bystanding species with us), the
Earth will shrug its shoulders and recover.
And if it were sentient (which of course it isn't just in case anyone
thinks otherwise), it would probably think "good riddance".



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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[Archimago]

Post by cliveb
Actually the Earth *does* have plenty of time to deal with it. It's the
human race that doesn't.
If we stuff up the global climate enough to wipe out mankind (and
possibly take out some other innocent bystanding species with us), the
Earth will shrug its shoulders and recover.
And if it were sentient (which of course it isn't just in case anyone
thinks otherwise), it would probably think "good riddance".

Yup. I don't know about the "good riddance" part.

But IMO there are greater challenges coming -way- before global climate
change impacts most of our lives in very turbulent ways!



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[RonM]

Post by Archimago
Yup. I don't know about the "good riddance" part.
But IMO there are greater challenges coming -way- before global climate
change impacts most of our lives in very turbulent ways!

Not sure about that. I think climate change is already having
substantial effects on many of us. We lose track of that because the
change element can be buried, from an immediate-experience point of
view, by being embedded in the general fabric of our daily life.
Extreme weather events have impacted many, and the number of these has
increased substantially as a function of climate change. More will
happen often.

Short of a some sort of nuclear nastiness, or the imposition of a truly
fascist state, I suspect that the impacts of climate change will be the
BIG THING over the near future.

R.



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[ralphpnj]

Post by RonM
Not sure about that. I think climate change is already having
substantial effects on many of us. We lose track of that because the
change element can be buried, from an immediate-experience point of
view, by being embedded in the general fabric of our daily life.
Extreme weather events have impacted many, and the number of these has
increased substantially as a function of climate change. More will
happen often.
Short of a some sort of nuclear nastiness, or the imposition of a truly
fascist state, I suspect that the impacts of climate change will be the
BIG THING over the near future.
R.

To which I would add to the list of BIG THINGS to worry about in the
near future: financial / stock market collapse



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[arnyk]

I suspect that the impacts of climate change will be the BIG THING over
the near future.

As is probably well known, the current US President is a global warming
denier, and is deconstructing our environmental regulatory
infrastructure.

One of his major properties which he visits often is Mira Largo Florida,
which is so close to sea level...


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[arnyk]

Post by Julf
Whenever I start thinking that I just have a quick look over at CA... :)

or many other spots. The slippery slope starts when people start
suspending disbelief. It takes hold when they spend money on it, and the
hook is usually irretrievably set once they brag about it.


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[ralphpnj]

Post by arnyk
or many other spots. The slippery slope starts when people start
suspending disbelief. It takes hold when they spend money on it, and the
hook is usually irretrievably set once they brag about it.

Nicely stated!

And one should add:

completely lost once they get paid to write about it.



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[Golden Earring]

Post by Julf
Whenever I start thinking that I just have a quick look over at CA... :)

I think anyone prepared to live in a major active earthquake zone (when
they could obviously afford to live elsewhere) needs a substantial
element of subjectivity in their psyche...

Dave :)


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[Julf]

Post by Golden Earring
I think anyone prepared to live in a major active earthquake zone (when
they could obviously afford to live elsewhere) needs a substantial
element of subjectivity in their psyche...

Ah, yes, or induce it chemically. :)

With "CA", I was actually referring to a certain commercial web forum,
not the state, but that forum is a state of mind too...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Golden Earring]

Post by Julf
Ah, yes, or induce it chemically. :)
With "CA", I was actually referring to a certain commercial web forum,
not the state, but that forum is a state of mind too...

Since all our "realities" are a construct by our brains from a set of
tiny electrical impulses, it is entirely possible that we are all wrong
:cool:

Dave (I think... )


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[Julf]

Post by Golden Earring
Since all our "realities" are a construct by our brains from a set of
tiny electrical impulses, it is entirely possible that we are all wrong

Or if we only exist as a computer simulation...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[drmatt]

Did you take the blue pill again?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk



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[Archimago]

Here's a look at the MQA Rendering of the Dragonfly Black:
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/06/measurements-audioquest-dragonfly-black_24.html

I honestly don't see anything "good" here that argues for higher
fidelity... Also good for HIRESAUDIO for not selling this kind of
questionable "technology"!



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[Wombat]

I picked some info here and there but your summary is the most complete
i did read. Well done!
Funny is how the aliased HF crap from 'unfold' 2 by some is
misinterpreted as original content because of BS using cloudy wordings.



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[Julf]

Great job - as usual!



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Archimago]

Post by Wombat
I picked some info here and there but your summary is the most complete
i did read. Well done!
Funny is how the aliased HF crap from 'unfold' 2 by some is
misinterpreted as original content because of BS using cloudy wordings.

And that's an important observation about MQA, Wombat.

I think the reason so many reasonable/rational audiophiles have been
concerned about MQA is the nebulous way that it's being presented since
late 2014. The strange burst of Q&A articles from Bob Stuart last year,
the lack of A/B comparisons from the start. On the one hand, vague hints
at "time domain" this and "origami" that. Combined with rather extreme
superlatives about just how much better it is compared with everything
else down to the micro/pico/nanoseconds... Replete with colorful graphs
and impulse responses that on the surface might look enticing but is
ultimately all about a sales job. Sure, who doesn't want it to be true?
But there ways always that fishy smell and intellectual itch that seems
"too good to be true".

I don't know how much money Meridian/MQA/TIDAL/record industry want to
burn with pushing MQA to keep this going... I won't be surprised if by
this time next year, everyone will have moved on (including the aging
audiophile mainstream press writers, their shills, and their
"alternative facts").



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[Golden Earring]

Post by Archimago
I don't know how much money Meridian/MQA/TIDAL/record industry want to
burn with pushing MQA to keep this going... I won't be surprised if by
this time next year, everyone will have moved on (including the aging
audiophile mainstream press writers, their shills, and their
"alternative facts").

Hi Archimago!

I agree entirely with your prophecy that MQA will be judged by
audiophile history to have been a "7 day wonder".

However I note from one of your earlier blog posts that a friend of
yours has a Mytek Brooklyn DAC (which has hardware MQA capability & was
therefore of use for your initial investigations of MQA). I too have one
of these "Brokkly"s, to use Wombat's expression, which I was lucky
enough to acquire cheaply through an eBay auction - it's "ex-demo" but
as new & warrantied.

I just wondered what your opinion of this DAC is. I didn't buy mine
because of the MQA capability but because it seemed reasonably flexible
with regard to higher resolution PCM & DSD streams, & also includes a
decent balanced headphone amplifier for my Sennheiser HD800S cans
together with an MC/MM phono preamp for my legacy LP12/Ittok/Koetsu
Rosewood Signature which I have been safeguarding through numerous
relocations since the 1980's.

Have you run any of your excellent testing routines on the Brokkly?

Dave :)


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[arnyk]

Post by Golden Earring
Hi Archimago!
I agree entirely with your prophecy that MQA will be judged by
audiophile history to have been a "7 day wonder".
However I note from one of your earlier blog posts that a friend of
yours has a Mytek Brooklyn DAC (which has hardware MQA capability & was
therefore of use for your initial investigations of MQA). I too have one
of these "Brokkly"s, to use Wombat's expression, which I was lucky
enough to acquire cheaply through an eBay auction - it's "ex-demo" but
as new & warrantied.
I just wondered what your opinion of this DAC is. I didn't buy mine
because of the MQA capability but because it seemed reasonably flexible
with regard to higher resolution PCM & DSD streams, & also includes a
decent balanced headphone amplifier for my Sennheiser HD800S cans
together with an MC/MM phono preamp for my legacy LP12/Ittok/Koetsu
Rosewood Signature which I have been safeguarding through numerous
relocations since the 1980's.
Have you run any of your excellent testing routines on the Brokkly?
Dave :)

Just goes to show that you can't teach Placebophiles about audio.

In general if you do proper listening comparisons among DACs, you can't
reliably hear the difference between a $7.95 DAC from eBay and the Mytec
or Benchmark products, as good as they are and as mediocre as the eBay
DAC is.

These days even just technically mediocre is better than our ears can
tell. Our eyes, well that is a different matter. ;-)


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[Golden Earring]

Post by arnyk
Just goes to show that you can't teach Placebophiles about audio.
In general if you do proper listening comparisons among DACs, you can't
reliably hear the difference between a $7.95 DAC from eBay and the Mytec
or Benchmark products, as good as they are and as mediocre as the eBay
DAC is.
These days even just technically mediocre is better than our ears can
tell. Our eyes, well that is a different matter. ;-)

Hi Arny!

Hope you're having a good weekend - I note that you're back to your
irascible best. :eek:

I've already got your take on DAC's loud & clear from your previous
posts: my enquiry was directed to Archimego who has certainly spent a
great deal of effort testing various DAC's, & may or may not take your
hard line on this matter.

Quite apart from purported audible differences, which objective tests
would seem to show should be minimal or negative rather than positive,
there are such areas as feature set, ergonomics and the performance of
analogue stages to consider, so my enquiry is quite genuine.

I am still hoping to receive a reply from Archimego who appears to have
a friend whom you would label a "placebophile" - I hope that he has a
thick skin like me, or else that he doesn't follow this forum...

Dave :)


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[Mnyb]

It's seems that mqa can be implemented differently ( which is strange
given what they say they ate doing ...)
So it can be intresting to see how diffrent DAC's switch filters and
varies other settings and implement the noise shaping dither etc ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
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[drmatt]

Post by Mnyb
It's seems that mqa can be implemented differently ( which is strange
given what they say they ate doing ...)
So it can be intresting to see how diffrent DAC's switch filters and
varies other settings and implement the noise shaping dither etc ?

Indeed. Presumably "mqa certification" just means "thou shalt implement
a bunch of filters like this; and switch to them according to the
instructions sent". The idea being, presumably, that mqa certified music
sources choose a suitable output filter according to the analogue->
digital filtering types at the other end.

Of course this is doomed to failure as there are probably tens of
different ADCs used for any given commercial recording.


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[drmatt]

Interesting reading. I can vouch for the Chord DACs sounding quite
obviously special but don't have a meridian experience to talk about..


<i>Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk</i>



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[pippin]

MQA certification primarily means you pay a license fee and then you can
use the label.



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[cliveb]

After everything I've seen emerge about MQA, it's becoming increasingly
clear that it is a cynical attempt to extract more cash from punters
through FUD.

The people who have built this system almost certainly know full well
that it's all a bunch of smoke and mirrors.
And they also know that if you present the right kind of pseudo-science
to the right kind of audiophile and then get them to do a sighted
comparison, they will hear an improvement due to their expectations
based on the hoodwinkery they've been exposed to.

This is just blatent, shameful scamming of the public. If they were in
the financial or pharmaceutical industry they'd probably be a in jail by
now.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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[drmatt]

If they were in the financial or pharmaceutical industry they'd probably
be a in jail by now.

I doubt it. 2008 was a long time ago, and nothing going on there yet...


<i>Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk</i>



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[cliveb]

I don't think the word "fraud" should be on anyone's lips. Misguided,
naive, weak minded, arguable, but let's not overstate things.

I generally follow the principle "do not ascribe to malice that which
can be explained by incompetence".
But frankly I don't think Bob Stuart is incompetent enough to actually
believe this MQA hogwash - he does have a fairly illustrious engineering
background, after all.
So in this case, yes, I really do think what's going on is tantamount to
fraud.



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[Wombat]

For Meridian it may be the needed follow-up for MLP licensing. They had
to develop something new licensible so they create some magic around it
to get the income they are used to.



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[arnyk]

Post by Wombat
For Meridian it may be the needed follow-up for MLP licensing. They had
to develop something new licensible so they create some magic around it
to get the income they are used to.

AFAIK MLP was not appreciably better than FLAC which was as I recall in
the public domain. It may have been attractive to media producers for
exactly that reason, but technically it seems to have been a matter of
charging for something that performed technically no better than what
knowledgeable people were already using for free.


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[Mnyb]

Post by pippin
MQA certification primarily means you pay a license fee and then you can
use the label.

Yes agree , then we migth ask how inportant they think their own spec is
.

Post by pippin
Indeed. Presumably "mqa certification" just means "thou shalt implement
a bunch of filters like this; and switch to them according to the
instructions sent". The idea being, presumably, that mqa certified music
sources choose a suitable output filter according to the analogue->
digital filtering types at the other end.
Of course this is doomed to failure as there are probably tens of
different ADCs used for any given commercial recording.
<i>Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk</i>

Yes the Idea is probably a fail , but given that , wonder if the DAC's
and softwares certified follows spec rigidly.. is there wiggle room in
spec , as long as you paid for the sticker ?? Would be interesting to se
more test of such DAC's .

I've would not be surprised if they are different and further that some
of settings do produce small audible differences . Some filter settings
combined with some DAC and you hifi may produce undesired side effects
.

Due to sighted testing and the intellectual corruption gone several
rounds in the industry , some "voodoo designers" may actually manage to
bodge such a well understood thing as DAC and produce kit that do sound
different , but not for any good reason..
It would be healthy if the magazines that do measurements could point a
finger at clearly broken stuff instead of producing more smoke and
mirrors and FUD usually trying to explain away the strange performance
with some claims of unorthodox design principles and hidden unmeasurable
variables that must exist due the excellent result in sighted testing
;)

Happy to see Archimago do his measurements.

It would however help tremendously if MQA themselfs produced a test
signal suite and publish it officially so that anyone could test
compliance in MQA branded products .



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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
I doubt it. 2008 was a long time ago, and nothing going on there yet...
And really? Scamming the public? You really think they are sitting there
trying to think of something that they can sell knowing full well it
does nothing and cackling into their capes as they swoosh off to the
bank?

Given "Dr Matt" (a fraudulent nickname) that I know that the truth
about so-called high rez audio gores one or more of your oxen... ;-)

A relevant factoid is that one or more AES conference papers leading up
to the announcement of MQA were pretty well hooted off the AES forum web
site. So they don't have to believe the truth, but they've been
introduced to it up front and personal by peers.

It is true that denial ain't just a river and Egypt and that denial is
greatly enhanced when somebody else's truth truth gets in the way of
your making a profit.

However, take that too far and you're committing legal fraud, plain and
simple. Ignorance does not confer immunity to the law.


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[drmatt]

Post by arnyk
Given "Dr Matt" (a fraudulent nickname)

Seriously, why do you have a problem with my nickname? Not only is it
completely and utterly irrelevant, it's actually not even untrue.. lol

I'm aware that small high end hifi companies undoubtedly suffer from
enhanced pressure to turn a profit (they do not have the large company
buffer and all their jobs are on the line), but I don't believe there is
more than just a small element within each who might work to
*deliberately* pull the wool over people's eyes.

I can see where you're coming from though. Even if we ignore your
particular view that everything sounds the same it is still obvious to
all concerned that you really don't get a lot more engineering when you
pay a lot more money. I have to say my choice of cool looking hifi would
be a lot smaller if everyone felt like you, however, Mr K, and I'm not
sure I want that either.



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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
Seriously, why do you have a problem with my nickname? Not only is it
completely and utterly irrelevant, it's actually not even untrue.. lol

I'm afraid that I'm a prisoner of your earlier obfuscation and
apparently false claims on that topic. Given your history related to
that topic, how do we know that you are telling the truth now?

Post by drmatt
I'm aware that small high end hifi companies undoubtedly suffer from
enhanced pressure to turn a profit (they do not have the large company
buffer and all their jobs are on the line), but I don't believe there is
more than just a small element within each who might work to
*deliberately* pull the wool over people's eyes.

Morally, their position seems very weak. Their credibility as a supplier
rests in their credibility and ability to properly create and
characterize what they sell, but if their claims and products are easy
to falsify using generally taught and accepted science, then where does
that put them?

Post by drmatt
I can see where you're coming from though. Even if we ignore your
particular view that everything sounds the same

You are claiming falsely and libeling me. I've never said and I would
never say that everything sounds the same.

If there is any question I hereby assert before God and Man on this
twenty-sixth day of June 2017 that some audio gear sounds different and
some does not.

Post by drmatt
it is still obvious to all concerned that you really don't get a lot
more engineering when you pay a lot more money.

Not infrequently you get less engineering and less competent engineering
for that extra expenditure.

Post by drmatt
I have to say my choice of cool looking hifi would be a lot smaller if
everyone felt like you, however, Mr K, and I'm not sure I want that
either.

Again you are claiming falsely and irrationally. If people would quit
spending so much time and money on an irrational quest for better
sounding audio gear when none is possible, a greater proportion of the
development and product costs could be spent on industrial design
(appearance).


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[bakker_be]

Post by cliveb
After everything I've seen emerge about MQA, it's becoming increasingly
clear that it is a cynical attempt to extract more cash from punters
through FUD.
The people who have built this system almost certainly know full well
that it's all a bunch of smoke and mirrors.
And they also know that if you present the right kind of pseudo-science
to the right kind of audiophile and then get them to do a sighted
comparison, they will hear an improvement due to their expectations
based on the hoodwinkery they've been exposed to.
This is just blatent, shameful scamming of the public. If they were in
the financial or pharmaceutical industry they'd probably be a in jail by
now.

Not only is it an effort to extract more money, but it's also IMO yet
another effort at DRM enforcement. Add to this e.g. the trend for
disappearing 3.5mm jacks on smartphones, the current number one playback
device for a whole generation of (admittedly non-audiophile) music
"consumers" ...



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[drmatt]

But as you know companies will always prefer to use a format with a
contract and support rather than one without, where they may find
themselves with a bunch of support case and no expertise or will to fix
it.


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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
But as you know companies will always prefer to use a format with a
contract and support rather than one without, where they may find
themselves with a bunch of support case and no expertise or will to fix
it.

You have evidence that the FLAC developers refused to sign contracts or
support their product for a reasonable fee?

I doubt it.


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[drmatt]

Post by arnyk
You have evidence that the FLAC developers refused to sign contracts or
support their product for a reasonable fee?
I doubt it.

No, but I have plenty of evidence that corporations won't touch open
source with a bargepole.


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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
No, but I have plenty of evidence that corporations won't touch open
source with a bargepole.

Many of us already have evidence in their possession that the majority
of businesses and individuals that use cell phones already use open
source software.

Consider that 100s of millions of people and 10s of millions of
businesses use Android, which is software that will happily print out a
little statement saying that it is based on open source Linux, if you
ask it nicely.

I call BS on your unfounded and meaningless claim. Again.


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[Golden Earring]

Post by drmatt
No, but I have plenty of evidence that corporations won't touch open
source with a bargepole.

Hi guys!

It's all got a bit heated on this thread & I don't want to get involved
in the vitriolic stuff.

Nevertheless, it seems to me that Logitech's decision to ditch our
beloved system was based at least in part on its inability to recover
the ongoing development & maintenance costs of the open source
"Logitech" (read "Slim Devices"!) Media Server software...

Dave :)


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[drmatt]

I doubt it. Markets where there is a defacto generic product tend
towards less variety. Hipster kickstarters aside, most consumers
wouldn't buy anything but the defacto "good enough", and those that do
explore further would only really buy the one with the Apple logo..


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[arnyk]

I've usually observed that markets where there is a defacto generic
product tend towards less variety, so I don't know what's irrational
about that. Hipster kickstarters aside, most consumers wouldn't buy
anything but the defacto "good enough", and those that do explore
further would only really buy the one with the Apple logo..

I guess you are unaware of the fact that Apple is a minority provider in
most if not all of the markets it serves, including cell phones.

How long has it been since Apple released a major new product that
commands a majority of its market?


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[drmatt]

This is barely luke warm, not heated. We are calm. Well, I am.. ;)

I realised of course that android, osX, numerous zillions of
infrastructure devices the world over are Linux based and therefore open
source based. And yet, my Linux based smart TV won't play Ogg Vorbis
files. Why is that? They didn't have the codec expertise in-house, so
they didn't want to touch it. But they know they have to support
proprietary Microsoft, Sony, and apple formats so they pick up the phone
and buy the expertise in; but no-one has the breadth of imagination to
simply install the libs that come with the base OS for free to support
to the freebies.

Apple are a bit special aren't they. Or they were. Perhaps they need to
find a new industry to innovate in, their approach to the ones they are
in is becoming quite stale.


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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
This is barely luke warm, not heated. We are calm. Well, I am.. ;)
You can fairly accuse me of giving an incomplete answer.

No, I can fairly accuse you of obfuscation. The only question is whether
it is intentional or not.

Now "Dr Matt" you have further obfuscated by conflating the difficulty
of supporting a simple little file compression utility with an entire
media player or worse yet, a full fledged mainstream operating system.
Here's some friendly advice. They are orders of magnitudes different.
One is at best a part time position, one can take a small team, and one
can demand the efforts of battalions of the best IT people that you can
find.

So it remains for the reader to figure out whether this happens because
of abject ignorance related to the difference in complexity of simple
little file compression utility with an entire media player or worse
yet, a full fledged mainstream operating system; or a habitual liar who
invents facts de jour in a vain attempt to win arguments on a internet
forum and hides his malfeasance behind an alias.


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[Golden Earring]

Post by drmatt
Apple are a bit special aren't they. Or they were. Perhaps they need to
find a new industry to innovate in? It seems their approach to the ones
they are currently in is becoming quite stale.

When my #2 daughter finished her psychology degree, she announced her
intention to pursue a career in marketing.

I took her out to lunch for a "brain-storming" session, having attempted
to convey the notion that marketing was an industry dedicated to
identifying ways to make people want to buy things that they don't
actually need...

I wasn't sufficiently persuasive to put her off (although she has now
seen the error of her ways & switched to teaching), but it was a good
lunch & we had a number of original ideas & I was subsequently presented
with a transparent cylinder of plastic lemons & a bright yellow t-shirt
bearing the outline of a lemon & the caption "I just bought an iLemon" &
below (in rather smaller typeface) "We're Crackers but you'll still buy
it!".

The "iLemon" concept was to sell people an actual lemon, which is of
course self-powered (small internal potential), & will accept any kind
of connector shoved into its rind, although it doesn't actually DO
anything. And after a week or so it goes mouldy & you'd then need to buy
another one!

We figured that with the right marketing campaign & the appropriate
dealer support (at a 30% margin), an asking price of £50 seemed
attainable with the potential of a global market, using locally-sourced
lemons...

"Every system needs an iLemon" :D

Dave :cool:

P.S. I quite often wear the t-shirt!


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[drmatt]

Post by Golden Earring
.....
"Every system needs an iLemon" :D
P.S. I quite often wear the t-shirt!

Nice one Dave. Sounds like one for an episode of The Apprentice.. :)


<i>Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk</i>



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[Golden Earring]

Post by drmatt
Nice one Dave. Sounds like one for an episode of The Apprentice.. :)

The hardest part was thinking of a fruit with a negative connotation -
finally I got to "buying a lemon"...

Dave :cool:


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[Golden Earring]

I have now devised the "iGrape Award" for the sourest forum postings.

It's not quite decided yet but there are some prominent contenders...
;)

Dave :cool:


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[drmatt]

Personal insult escalation so quickly? I normally need at least five
messages to raise your blood pressure. You got up early to type this
rant. I think you are the only one confused about my position and my
observations.

Long and short is that I'm not trying to "win" anything, it's really
only you doing that.


<i>Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk</i>



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[arnyk]

Post by drmatt
Personal insult escalation so quickly? I normally need at least five
messages to raise your blood pressure. You got up early to type this
rant. I think you are the only one confused about my position and my
observations.
Long and short is that I'm not trying to "win" anything, it's really
only you doing that.

I've tried to discuss audio with some of the most subtle, polished,
ignorant, abusive and truth-challenged golden ears around. My life has
been threatened and there have been other forms of assault and
harassment as well. Even my wife's gardening preferences have been
attacked on an audio forum. I was accused repeatedly of abusing my late
son's lifeless body. All in support of the kind of false beliefs that
are espoused by some around here. I've pretty much seen it all.

Who is attacking whom should become clear if your opening round of false
accusations about my personal beliefs about audible differences is
considered.

A sincere person admits and apologizes for their errors. Seeing none
of either...

I suggest that you continue to deny your past misdeeds, as that strategy
actually fools a few people who share your biases as our current U.S.
President has put into practice nearly every time he speaks. ;-)


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[drmatt]

I remember when "X" was the letter you added to words to make them
cool...


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[Golden Earring]

Post by drmatt
I remember when "X" was the letter you added to words to make them
cool...

:D :D :D

Davex :cool:


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[Golden Earring]

Shock! Horror!

Sony ceased vinyl production in 1989, so this is unexpected.

I am anticipating an apoplectic reaction to this revelation... ;)

Davex :cool:


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[Wombat]

Aren't you in danger to get sued by apple when using the 'i' with
something similar, another fruit? I suggest a vegetable like 'i'broccoli
;)



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[Golden Earring]

Post by Wombat
Aren't you in danger to get sued by apple when using the 'i' with
something similar, another fruit? I suggest a vegetable like 'i'broccoli
;)

Hi Wombat!

I really think that my poor Brokklyx has taken enough stick!

Recalling the old definition of expert to be ex as in "has been" & spurt
as in "a drip of water", what about iPea? ;)

Davex :cool:


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[MichaelJ]

Post by Golden Earring
Shock! Horror!
Sony ceased vinyl production in 1989, so this is unexpected.
I am anticipating an apoplectic reaction to this revelation... ;)

Hopefully their new vinyl will be quadraphonic with a brilliant new
analog MQA encoding.
An audiophool's wet dream.&#128512;


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[Golden Earring]

Post by MichaelJ
Hopefully their new vinyl will be quadraphonic with a brilliant new
analog MQA encoding.
An audiophool's wet dream.&#128512;

Hi Michael!

I'm old enough to remember Virgin's SQ release of Tubular Bells which
proclaimed that it was "for people with four ears"! At least they
appreciated the irony :D

Davex :cool:


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[MichaelJ]

Back in 1970 our quad setup consisted of a radio in each corner of the
room listening to Casey Kasem's Top40.
We applied judicious amounts of herbals to convince ourselves that we
had achieved surround sound.


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[ftlight]

Post by MichaelJ
Back in 1970 our quad setup consisted of a radio in each corner of the
room listening to Casey Kasem's Top40.
We applied judicious amounts of herbals to convince ourselves that we
had achieved surround sound.

I remember the first time I heard stereophonic sound in the 1950s
("ping-pong stereo", with a real table tennis game!), which used a TV
tuned to the BBC for one channel and a radio tuned to the Third
Programme for the other.


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[RonM]

The first, and possibly only, time I heard what could be understood as
"true" quad sound was at an ELP concert. It was at a hockey arena, Maple
Leaf Gardens, in Toronto, and we had cheap seats up in the grays. Turns
out the ushers decided on some random basis that our particular seats
were obstructed, and they put us on the "floor". There were speakers set
up in the four corners of the rink, with some extra ones on the stage.
In effect, we were inside the quad environment.

It was very cool at the time, the coolness not being at all hindered by
chemical alterations to the synapses.

Although I owned some so-called quad vinyl, I never actually had the
equipment to play it back properly. In theory it was "stereo
compatible", although it always sounded kind of thin to me.



LMS on a dedicated server (FitPC3)
Transporter (Ethernet) - main listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Touch (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space
Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (WiFi) - home office
Control - Squeeze Control (Android mobile), 2 Controllers (seldom used),
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