Discussion:
Setting Transporter to Slave for World Clock Input
mofuv
2007-10-29 21:36:49 UTC
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I have an external world clock connected to the world clock input of the
transporter. I cannot find any information how to set the transporter as
slave when using the external world clock a master. Where can I find
this information? Any ideas?


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Eric Seaberg
2007-10-29 21:50:28 UTC
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Can I ask why you want to do this? The only reason would be if you're
taking a digital output of the TP and feeding it into another digital
source that is ALSO locked to the same word clock.

You can select the word clock source by using the WEB Browser within
the Transporter settings.


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mofuv
2007-10-29 22:16:02 UTC
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I want to use a DAC with a world clock output as master.

What do you mean with WEB Browser within the transporter settings?
Under settings in the transporter there is no WEB browser topic and
connecting the computer via slimserver to the transporter does not give
a menue with settings, only the music playing functions. Trying to
connect directly to the IP address does also not work. It would be
great if you could describe for a beginner what exactly I have to do to
get to the world clock settings.


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radish
2007-10-29 23:48:33 UTC
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In slimserver go to Player Settings/Audio, and scroll down to "Clock
Source".


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Eric Seaberg
2007-10-30 04:21:02 UTC
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mofuv;238794 Wrote:
> I want to use a DAC with a world clock output as master.

So you have a D-to-A converter than has a wordclock output? Haven't
heard of that one. You may want to listen to the analog output of the
Transporter on its own before going through all of the hassle.

I did some major testing of our ProTools HD rigs (4-studios) comparing
the output jitter when they were running on INTERNAL clock or having to
sync to an EXTERNAL clock. The output jitter was considerably LESS when
run internal.

I don't have all of the info here in front of me, but I did verify this
theory at a digital maintenance session sponsored by Sencore, the
manufacturer of the test gear.

We only run our studios using a house wordclock source when we need to
do realtime digital transfers between studios. Otherwise, they all run
on their own internal clock. Of course all of the digital gear in that
room is locked to the ProTools master clock.


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seanadams
2007-10-30 05:01:34 UTC
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Eric Seaberg;238845 Wrote:
> So you have a D-to-A converter than has a wordclock output? Haven't
> heard of that one.

That's the whole point of it! You are thinking of a very different
application of the concept.

> You may want to listen to the analog output of the Transporter on its
> own before going through all of the hassle.

I'd agree with you there.

>
> I did some major testing of our ProTools HD rigs (4-studios) comparing
> the output jitter when they were running on INTERNAL clock or having to
> sync to an EXTERNAL clock. The output jitter was considerably LESS when
> run internal.

That's correct, jitter is always lower with an internal clock. That is
why IF you are using an external DAC, you ideally want the DAC to have
an INTERNAL clock, and then send its clock signal out to the data
source's clock input. Then the data source device is acting _only_ as a
data source, not a data + (poor) clock source.

>
> We only run our studios using a house wordclock source when we need to
> do realtime digital transfers between studios. Otherwise, they all run
> on their own internal clock. Of course all of the digital gear in that
> room is locked to the ProTools master clock.

That is the right way to do it, but what you're describing is more
properly called "house sync", even though it can use the audio word
clock frequency. It is a different application that has nothing to do
with reducing jitter. Indeed, as you say it would make it worse, which
is why a word-clock-derived clock signal should never be used to drive a
DAC.


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Eric Seaberg
2007-10-30 05:17:22 UTC
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We do have house sync (video black) as well as house wordclock... two
different things and used for two different purposes. Our rooms were
designed by some of the folks that worked at Lucas' Skywalker Ranch as
well as myself. We've been doing this a long time. ;-)


We have 6 Benchmark DAC1s in our facility and they don't have a WC
out... that's why I asked. I hadn't seen a DAC like that. In my case,
I'd supply WC to the Transporter if I wanted to run in to a digital
input for re-recording.


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mofuv
2007-10-31 10:57:40 UTC
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Thank you for the hint how to set the world clock input.

I am using a dcs scarlatti dac - http://dcsltd.co.uk/ - as master which
has a world clock output. The dac receives the digital data from the
transporter and the transporter is directly connected via an ethernet
cable to a QNap Turbo Station TS-109 NAS Drive with built-in
SlimServer. I am using no computer in between, that's the reason why I
had difficulties to find the world clock setting. It is not possible to
do this on the transporter itself.

The NAS Drive came with a built in SlimServer. Has anyone an idea how
to access the settings of the SlimServer in the QNap Turbo Station NAS
Drive?


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Mark Lanctot
2007-10-31 13:32:38 UTC
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mofuv;239168 Wrote:
> Has anyone an idea how to access the settings of the SlimServer in the
> QNap Turbo Station NAS Drive?

http://<QNap IP address>:9000 in any browser, as with all SlimServer
installs.


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mofuv
2007-11-01 17:46:48 UTC
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thanks Mark, it is easy to change the setting that way, but difficult to
get the transporter really running (with an external clock as master).
First it did not have any output at all, but setting it back to master,
then again to slave, then switching it off and on showed positive
results. Now it's working fine and the sound quality has distinctly
improved with the DAC as master.


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anselld
2007-11-04 18:00:13 UTC
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mofuv;239487 Wrote:
> thanks Mark, it is easy to change the setting that way, but difficult to
> get the transporter really running (with an external clock as master).
> First it did not have any output at all, but setting it back to master,
> then again to slave, then switching it off and on showed positive
> results. Now it's working fine and the sound quality has distinctly
> improved with the DAC as master.

Wow, someone actually has a Scarlatti! (Do you work for dCS?)
I use this setup with the dCS Delius. Don't forget to set the
Scarlatti to MS:Mastr as well as setting the Transporter to World Clock
Input.
I also find this the best setup, though very occasionally they seem to
drop sync and there is a pause in the music.
I guess you will be needing Scarlatti master clock now!!


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mofuv
2007-11-04 22:09:44 UTC
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I am not working for dcs nor do I have any affiliation with them. But
they make great products. The sound I get with the transporter and the
scarlatti is the best I have ever heard. I am running in parallel a
Linn Akurate CD player. EAC ripped CD's in my system can fully compare
to the same discs played with their SACD side on the Linn.

I have no drop outs when the scarlatti DAC is set to master and the
transporter to slave, everything works perfectly well.

The only issue is that the DAC can only be switched to master when the
transporter is sending the information on the sampling frequency
usually 44.1. But the transporter does this only when he receives a
clock signal. When that happens I have to set the transporter back to
master (internal clock), switch the DAC then to master and after this
the transporter back to slave.

Since I have connected the transporter to the QNAP directly not linked
through my router (to avoid interferences from the router) I must
disconnect it every time from the router and connect it to the
computer. This is time consuming. The world clock setting should be
possible directly at the transport and not only through the slimserver
webinterface.


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Mark Lanctot
2007-11-04 22:14:29 UTC
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mofuv;240184 Wrote:
> Since I have connected the transporter to the QNAP directly not linked
> through my router (to avoid interferences from the router) I must
> disconnect it every time from the router and connect it to the
> computer.

What sort of "interferences"?


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mofuv
2007-11-13 18:35:53 UTC
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It is a wireless router which is not suited to transfer the necessary
datastream for high quality audio.


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Mark Lanctot
2007-11-13 18:49:27 UTC
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You mean it doesn't have enough bandwidth?


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achri-d
2007-12-27 11:33:55 UTC
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Does the Transporter lock - when slaved - to other frequencies than
44.1Hz? Rgds.


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mofuv
2007-12-27 15:43:33 UTC
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achri-d;251773 Wrote:
> Does the Transporter lock - when slaved - to other frequencies than
> 44.1kHz? Rgds.

I have only tried out 44,1 kHz so far, will check others in the near
fuutre.


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Konig
2007-12-28 17:18:02 UTC
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This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
achri-d
2008-01-02 21:23:29 UTC
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mofuv;251835 Wrote:
> I have only tried out 44,1 kHz so far, will check others in the near
> fuutre.

I think there is a serious flaw in the Transporter clocking system - so
I assume you don't succeed.

My system is a dCS Paganini DAC and clock. When I try to syncronize the
Transporter I am not able to lock the Transporter to 48kHz. 44.1kHz
works.

Rgds


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seanadams
2008-01-02 22:09:45 UTC
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achri-d;253579 Wrote:
> I think there is a serious flaw in the Transporter clocking system - so
> I assume you don't succeed.
>
> My system is a dCS Paganini DAC and clock. When I try to syncronize the
> Transporter I am not able to lock the Transporter to 48kHz. 44.1kHz
> works.
>
> Rgds

I think a more likely explanation is that you are not syncing in either
case - perhaps they are both trying to be master, and it only _appears_
to work at 44.1 because the nominal clock speeds are the same.

What happens if you disconnect the word clock during 44.1 playback?
What _should_ happen is that the Transporter and the external DAC will
immediately go out of sync and the DAC should go silent. That would be
a good test to do to make absolutely sure that the word clock is in
fact functioning at 44.1.

Incidentally, do you know how your DAC knows to output a 48KHz clock?
Is that a manual setting, or is it supposed to get it from the s/pdif
channel status information?


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achri-d
2008-01-02 23:48:44 UTC
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seanadams;253597 Wrote:
> I think a more likely explanation is that you are not syncing in either
> case - perhaps they are both trying to be master, and it only _appears_
> to work at 44.1 because the nominal clock speeds are the same.

No.

seanadams;253597 Wrote:
>
> What happens if you disconnect the word clock during 44.1 playback?
> What _should_ happen is that the Transporter and the external DAC will
> immediately go out of sync and the DAC should go silent. That would be
> a good test to do to make absolutely sure that the word clock is in
> fact functioning at 44.1.

It goes silent.

seanadams;253597 Wrote:
>
> Incidentally, do you know how your DAC knows to output a 48KHz clock?
> Is that a manual setting, or is it supposed to get it from the s/pdif
> channel status information?

Yes it is a manual setting. Please, notice that I use a DAC and en
external clock, i.e. two units.

The clock (square waves) is fed to the Transporter using a standard 75
Ohms cable with BNC connectors. No- not S/PDIF format. That is, one
cable feed the clock TO the Transporter, and another (S/PDIF) sends the
signal FROM the TRansporter to the DAC.

Rgds.


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seanadams
2008-01-03 00:27:59 UTC
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achri-d;253632 Wrote:
>
> It goes silent.
>

OK good... next thing to test is to try listening to Transporter's
_analog_ outputs while it is being fed by the 48KHz word clock. They
should operate both in 44.1 and in 48KHz mode. Then if you disconnect
the word clock while playing, the analog outputs should either go
silent or speed way up or down.

Also, try playing both 44.1 and 48 KHz tracks while in 48KHz mode. The
44.1 tracks should sound sped-up.

>
> Yes it is a manual setting. Please, notice that I use a DAC and en
> external clock, i.e. two units.

?!? Why?

Such a configuration should only be used if you have some requirement
to synchronize multiple _source_ components, perhaps for editing
purposes.

It is the MCLK (eg 11.2896MHZ) signal that actually drives the internal
operation of a modern DAC chip, and the whole point of word clocking
(for the purpose of reducing jitter) is to put that clock as close as
possible to the DAC chip itself.

A PLL is absolutely _terrible_ at generating a master clock from a word
clock, compared to generating it directly with a crystal. But that is
not even the only source of jitter - you are also accumulating it in
all the connections between this equipment, and in the clock source
device itself, as it has to divide a crystal-generated clock internally
to produce that low word clock frequency.

I am not aware of any situation where a word clock would be advisable
for driving a DAC. You will get jitter much worse than anything you'd
get even from traditional s/pdif master->slave clocking.... i.e. this
is not only defeating the jitter eliminating mechanism of the word
clock interface, but is actually making the jitter far worse even than
plain s/pdif. You are probably running your DAC on a few hundred
picoseconds of jitter, as opposed to the 30ps or less that would come
from a good quality internal oscillator.

> The clock (square waves) is fed to the Transporter using a standard 75
> Ohms cable with BNC connectors. No- not S/PDIF format. That is, one
> cable feed the clock TO the Transporter, and another (S/PDIF) sends the
> data FROM the TRansporter to the DAC.
>
> Rgds.

That's fine... but driving the DAC from a word clock signal is not OK.
The problem could in fact be that the jitter is so high that the system
is on the borderline of being able to operate at all.

Have you tried hooking things up in the usual word clock configuration
where the DAC (not a separate box) is the clock master?

Also, have you talked to dcs about this issue? I'm not just trying to
point fingers here, but without having the equipment on-hand this is
very hard for me to diagnose. They may be able to provide some
additional insight here.


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achri-d
2008-01-03 01:15:17 UTC
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seanadams;253647 Wrote:
> OK good... next thing to test is to try listening to Transporter's
> _analog_ outputs while it is being fed by the 48KHz word clock. They
> should operate both in 44.1 and in 48KHz mode. Then if you disconnect
> the word clock while playing, the analog outputs should either go
> silent or speed way up or down.

The Transporter, when using the internal DAC, works just fine. It
produces analogue output for 44.1, 48 and 96 (which I have tried) and
sounds good.

seanadams;253647 Wrote:
> Also, try playing both 44.1 and 48 KHz tracks while in 48KHz mode. The
> 44.1 tracks should sound sped-up.

Yes, when I used a dCS Delius as external clock to Transporter this
works as well. Indeed, the 44.1 sounds speed up. I also tried to run 96
like this. And then of course slows down. Notice, I still use the
analogue outputs.

seanadams;253647 Wrote:
> ?!? Why?
>
> Such a configuration should only be used if you have some requirement
> to synchronize multiple _source_ components, perhaps for editing
> purposes.
>
> It is the MCLK (eg 11.2896MHZ) signal that actually drives the internal
> operation of a modern DAC chip, and the whole point of word clocking
> (for the purpose of reducing jitter) is to put that clock as close as
> possible to the DAC chip itself.
>
> A PLL is absolutely _terrible_ at generating a master clock from a word
> clock, compared to generating it directly with a crystal. But that is
> not even the only source of jitter - you are also accumulating it in
> all the connections between this equipment, and in the clock source
> device itself, as it has to divide a crystal-generated clock internally
> to produce that low word clock frequency.

Well, I use a system where the dCS Paginini clock is used to syncronize
the Transporter and a dCS Paganini DAC. The DAC receives S/PDIF data
from the Transporter and does not need to decode the clock from the
data - as is also the situation in master mode.


seanadams;253647 Wrote:
> I am not aware of any situation where a word clock would be advisable
> for driving a DAC. You will get jitter much worse than anything you'd
> get even from traditional s/pdif master->slave clocking.... i.e. this
> is not only defeating the jitter eliminating mechanism of the word
> clock interface, but is actually making the jitter far worse even than
> plain s/pdif. You are probably running your DAC on a few hundred
> picoseconds of jitter, as opposed to the 30ps or less that would come
> from a good quality internal oscillator.

1) You may use a DAC in master mode to feed clock to the Transporter. I
used to do this with a dCS Delius, and have tried the same with the dCS
Paganini DAC.

2) Even better is to syncronize both the DAC and the Transporter to an
external clock - if this clock is of higher precision than the one in
the DAC.


seanadams;253647 Wrote:
> That's fine... but driving the DAC from a word clock signal is not OK.
> The problem could in fact be that the jitter is so high that the system
> is on the borderline of being able to operate at all.

Sorry, your statement is wrong - at least as I see this issue and as I
understand your statement. I use a dCS Paganini clock that syncronizes
a dCS Paganini DAC and the Transporter.

seanadams;253647 Wrote:
> Have you tried hooking things up in the usual word clock configuration
> where the DAC (not a separate box) is the clock master?

Yes, with a dCS Delius - 44.1 works but 48kHz does not work. The dCS
Paganini works well at 44.1 but does not output 48 so this I can not
try (that's why I have the Paganini clock - which outputs also 48).

seanadams;253647 Wrote:
> Also, have you talked to dcs about this issue? I'm not just trying to
> point fingers here, but without having the equipment on-hand this is
> very hard for me to diagnose. They may be able to provide some
> additional insight here.

I have the user's manual of my dCS units and they explain the issue in
details.

Further, I have tried to contact the support at slimdevices - may be I
did not succeed to post it properly(?) - and they haven't provided any
technical answer yet.

Rgds.


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seanadams
2008-01-03 02:29:58 UTC
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achri-d;253654 Wrote:
> Yes, when I used a dCS Delius as external clock to Transporter this
> works as well. Indeed, the 44.1 sounds speed up. I also tried to run 96
> like this. And then of course slows down. Notice, in this case I used
> the analogue outputs. If I turn
> off the clock the Transporter goes silent (in my system).

If that is the case then it means your transporter is definitely
recovering the 48KHz signal from the word clock input correctly.

A further test you could do would be to put the DAC into slave (normal
s/pdif clock) mode, and verify that it is able to play the s/pdif
signal coming from the Transporter while the Transporter is being fed
by the 48KHz external clock.

If this works, then you have now verified all of the following:

1. The external clock is generating an acceptable 48KHz word clock
2. Transporter's word clock input circuitry is able to electrically
receive this clock
3. Transporter's s/pdif output is indeed being derived from the word
clock input, and not it's internal clock.
4. All of Transporter's internal clcok paths are functioning
correctly (otherwise the DAC and/or s/pdif would not work).
5. The s/pdif connection (which is being used here only as a data
connection) is working correctly, and there is sufficient signal
integrity for the DAC's s/pdif receiver to be able to recover a data
stream from it.

This means the only possible explanation, given all the information at
hand, is that your DAC does not function when given a 48KHz word clock
input and a s/pdif signal synchronized to that clock. (A bizarre
configuration anyway, as I've noted).

> Well, I use a system where the dCS Paginini clock is used to syncronize
> the Transporter and a dCS Paganini DAC. The DAC receives S/PDIF data
> from the Transporter and does not need to decode the clock from the
> data - as is also the situation in master mode.

Yes I am aware that the clock is coming from the word clock input and
not the s/pdif. The point is that doing the former is definitely far
worse than using an internal oscillator directly, and probably even
worse than recovering the clock from s/pdif.

>
> 1) You may use a DAC in master mode to feed clock to the Transporter. I
> used to do this with a dCS Delius, and have tried the same with the dCS
> Paganini DAC.
>

And this also works at 48KHz, right?

>
> 2) Even better is to syncronize both the DAC and the Transporter to an
> external clock - if this clock is of higher precision than the one in
> the DAC.
>

No, this is where you are very wrong. I have already explained why from
a theoretical standpoint, but to put it another way, which do you expect
will have more jitter:

- A crystal oscillator running at 12.2880 MH, directly driving the DAC

Or

- A crystal oscillator running at 12.2880 MHz
- driving either a synchronous counter or a series of flip-flops, to
divide that signal down to 48 KHz
- then feeding this signal through some transmission circuit to a BNC
connector
- coupling that signal into a cable
- feeding it down the cable
- getting it into another connector at the other end of that cable
- driving that signal into a PLL circuit which multiplies the word
clock signal back up to 12.2880 Mhz
- feeding the output of that PLL into the DAC chip.


> Sorry, your statement is wrong - at least as I see this issue and as I
> understand your statement. I use a dCS Paganini clock that syncronizes
> a dCS Paganini DAC and the Transporter.

Well, one of us clearly is wrong. I have explained why I am right.
Could you point out the flaw in my reasoning?

Otherwise if you will not accept the theory, we would have to settle
the question empirically. That would require us to meet up in my lab
and you will need to bring all your equipment. :)

Also, again, have you contacted dcs? They have a technical paper about
jitter on their site so it is clear that someone there has an
understanding of these issues. I have no doubt that the author of that
paper would agree with me on this point. Their marketing person, on the
other hand, might tell you that you additionally need the external
$$$$$$$ clock in order to get the best sound.

>
> Yes, with a dCS Delius - 44.1 works but 48kHz does not work. The dCS
> Paganini works well at 44.1 but does not output 48 so this I can not
> try (that's why I have the Paganini clock - which outputs also 48).

Well, that is odd but given that the Transporter clearly is being
clocked by the 48KHz word clock (because the analog outputs are
working) it still points to an issue with the dcs.

>
> I have the user's manual of my dCS units and they explain the issue in
> details.

OK... so is there anything I'm missing? I looked on their web site and
they do not have the manuals posted for current products.

> Further, I have tried to contact the support at slimdevices - may be I
> did not succeed to post it properly(?) - and they haven't provided any
> technical answer yet.

They would just forward the question to me.


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seanadams
2008-01-03 04:36:26 UTC
Permalink
achri-d,

I have been doing some testing just now with version 33 firmware and I
am able to sync with any word clock frequency from 1KHz to 100KHz. I
can also vary the frequency, unplug and re-plug the cable, or even set
it to rapidly sweep a wide range of frequencies (that sounds really
weird!) but it always stays synced.

There are a number of documented bugs that I am currently working on
related to the audio logic, but I don't think any of them are related
to the symptoms you are describing. I really think you have some issue
on the DAC side, because Transporter doesn't know or care what
frequency is coming into its word clock input... it will just run at
whatever rate it is fed and doesn't do anything different for 44.1 vs
48. Of course it is possible for a bug to manifest at one clock
frequency and not another, but I am not seeing that behavior on our
end.

Where to go next depends on the result of the test I mentioned in the
previous post:

> A further test you could do would be to put the DAC into slave (normal
> s/pdif clock) mode, and verify that it is able to play the s/pdif
> signal coming from the Transporter while the Transporter is being fed
> by the 48KHz external clock.

But I am running out of ideas...


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achri-d
2008-01-03 19:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Today I tried the analogue outputs again and this is what happened:

1) Internal clock.

44.1, 48, 88.2 played well (I did not try 96 but can see no reason why
it shouldn't work).

2) External clock 44.1kHz - using data at 44.1kS/s.

If I turn the external clock off the music slows down.
If I set the external clock to 48 the music speeds up.

3) External clock 44.1kHz - using data at 88.2kS/s.

Only white noise.

3) External clock 48kHz - using data at 48 and 96kS/s.

Only white noise.

The rest of what I have written in this post regarding what happens
when I use the Transporter is still correct.

I use slimserver 6.5.4. What firmvare version is that.

Rgds.


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achri-d
2008-01-03 20:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Today I tried the analogue outputs again and this is what happened:

1) Internal clock.

44.1, 48, 88.2 played well (I did not try 96 but can see no reason why
it shouldn't work).

2) External clock 44.1kHz - using data at 44.1kS/s.

If I turn the external clock off the music slows down.
If I set the external clock to 48 the music speeds up.

3) External clock 44.1kHz - using data at 88.2kS/s.

Only white noise.

3) External clock 48kHz - using data at 48 and 96kS/s.

Only white noise.

I did not test this yesterday but relied on tests I did before. Now
after checking I am almost sure that I did something wrong last time I
tested months ago - late March 2007. I got the Transporter in March
2007. To use the 48kHz clock input has never worked with the
Transporter.

The rest of what I have written in this post regarding what happens
when I use the Transporter is still correct.

I use slimserver 6.5.4. Which firmware version is that?

seanadams;253669 Wrote:
> A further test you could do would be to put the DAC into slave (normal
> s/pdif clock) mode, and verify that it is able to play the s/pdif
> signal coming from the Transporter while the Transporter is being fed
> by the 48KHz external clock.
>

I checked this now just to make sure and it does not work. Using the
internal clock of the Transporter works.

Rgds.


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seanadams
2008-01-03 21:03:29 UTC
Permalink
achri-d;253940 Wrote:
>
>
> I checked this now just to make sure and it does not work. Using the
> internal clock of the Transporter works.
>

OK... well if that is the case then it points to an interaction with
one of the open bugs I am working on. It may be solved already for the
new firmware that is in the works, but I will do some more testing and
see if I can find an explanation. I still do not see any problem here,
but some of these have been hard to reproduce.

> Finally, I still can not understand your theory of internal vs external
> clock (high precision oscillator) for a DAC. Please, notice that both
> Esoteric and dCS promotes this idea - and for me it works well with the
> Transporter and 44.1kHz.

Which part of it is unclear?

Just for the sake of argument, consider an absolutely perfect clock
with zero jitter. No such thing exists, but let's just suppose for the
sake of argument that your external clock source is such a device.

Now, divide that clock signal down to word clock speed (/128 or /256),
send it through a bunch of cables and connectors, through a PLL and
across another circuit board to the DAC chip. How can that possibly
still be a clean clock? How could it possibly be cleaner than if you
placed the crystal oscillator right next to the DAC chip? It can not.
Not by any stretch of the imagination, and not even if you consider a
_perfect_ external clock source compared to the poorest imaginable
local crystal clock source. It is not even close. The external clocking
scheme is worse by about a factor of ten. In practice you would get
about 15-50ps for the internal clock, versus 100-300ps for the
external, PLL-recovered clock.

The fundamental principle of word clocking, when used for the purpose
of reducing jitter, is that you are eliminating all the crap between
the clock source and the DAC. This is where jitter comes from. The
quality of the crystal oscillator is actually not even a major factor.


Finally ask yourself, if dCS can produce a better clock signal through
such a convoluted means, why would they not then simply build this
technology into their $18K(?) DAC? Maybe they just want to sell you yet
another overpriced box.

Look, I am not making this up and I have nothing more to sell you. What
I am telling you is all solid theory that can easily be tested with
suitable equipment. Have a look at this (and also be sure to jump back
to part 1 for the introduction):

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diginterf2_e.html

What you need to do is shown in the "clock backwards" configuration.
This is ideal - it puts the oscillator right at the DAC so that the
clock signal does not flow through PLLs, dividers, or interconnects.

If anywhere in my reasoning you have found a mistake, please point it
out and we can discuss. Otherwise it's pretty silly to just not believe
me because my conclusions conflict with what the high priced stereo
vendors have told you. There are guys who will sell you lacquered knobs
and granite isolation plates too.


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wshields
2008-01-03 22:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Sean,

I am the person who reported the bug with using the word clock in with
a EMM dcc2. I have been following this thread and did something today
that may have fixed my problems. (or it could be a coincidence) To
summarize my problem was that the clock was getting out of sync when
using the emm as master causing popping noises. This was fixed by
switching the streaming format to wav so flac was decoded at server.

If you look at the emm dac connection to its own transport(manual is
on web at emm site) when using the dac as master there is a clock in
and out connection to the transport(2 cables for clock, 1 cable for
data). Both must be connected for the dac to work as master. There is a
clock in and a clock out for external source as well. So I just today
connected a cable out of the transporter to the clock in of the dac.( I
already had a word clock in to the transporter) I set the transporter to
output a clock thru the digital outs. I set the file types to stream
flac from the server and haven't noticed any popping so far. I did test
that the clock is being supplied by the dac by switching the clock on
the dac to 48 and the sound did speed up. I don't know if by having a
clock in and out to the dac did anything or something else changed to
get rid of my problem. Do you think this could have had an effect?

Walt Shields


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seanadams
2008-01-03 23:52:34 UTC
Permalink
wshields;253999 Wrote:
> Sean,
>
> I am the person who reported the bug with using the word clock in with
> a EMM dcc2. I have been following this thread and did something today
> that may have fixed my problems. (or it could be a coincidence) To
> summarize my problem was that the clock was getting out of sync when
> using the emm as master causing popping noises. This was fixed by
> switching the streaming format to wav so flac was decoded at server.
>
> If you look at the emm dac connection to its own transport(manual is
> on web at emm site) when using the dac as master there is a clock in
> and out connection to the transport(2 cables for clock, 1 cable for
> data). Both must be connected for the dac to work as master. There is a
> clock in and a clock out for external source as well. So I just today
> connected a cable out of the transporter to the clock in of the dac.( I
> already had a word clock in to the transporter) I set the transporter to
> output a clock thru the digital outs. I set the file types to stream
> flac from the server and haven't noticed any popping so far. I did test
> that the clock is being supplied by the dac by switching the clock on
> the dac to 48 and the sound did speed up. I don't know if by having a
> clock in and out to the dac did anything or something else changed to
> get rid of my problem. Do you think this could have had an effect?
>
> Walt Shields

I just got off the phone from a long chat with EMM Labs... you may want
to contact them directly as they were quite willing to help.

As it turns out they had actually contacted me about a year ago to
discuss word clock issues, but at the time we were busy becoming a part
of Logitech and I was not able to devote a lot of time to it. I don't
have the details on the top of my head, but I did at that time fix a
software issue and they were able to get the word clock working. He
said they actually continue use the Transporter in-house in this
configuration.

I asked, completely separate from your issue, how the OptiLink
configuration (page 9 of DCC2 manual) works and what is the purpose of
the clock connection from the source to the DAC. He said it was a
special feature to allow a particular customer to switch between
internal and external clock sources in an editing/mastering
environment. This configuration does NOT make sense to use with
Transporter, and the clock signal from the source to the DAC should NOT
be required when the DAC is being the master clock.

Now, back to the issue you are describing: Transporter's feature to
send a word clock signal out of it's s/pdif ports is actually only
active and useable when Transporter is being a _DAC_. That is the point
of it... so that Transporter can be the master clock and some other
source (a CD player for example) can feed data to it over s/pdif.

I have no idea why your setup started to work when you connected a
cable from Transporter's s/pdif output to the DAC's word clock in.
Certainly there is no chance that Transporter was outputting a word
clock, because it could not have simultaneously been transmitting
s/pdif if that were the case. Not only is the word clock output feature
unusable except when Transporter is being a DAC, but it is electrically
impossible for that to happen because the ports can collectively only
be driven by one signal or the other.

I think there is still some very fundamental setup issue going on.
Either Transporter is not really trying to be slave, or the DAC is not
really trying to be master. One thing EMM mentioned that people
sometimes get confused about is the meaning of the ext clock LED. The
Ext Clock LED should be OFF when the DAC is the master.

I really don't have the foggiest idea why your setup appeared to start
working when you connected a cable from Transporter's SPDIF to the
EMM's word clock in. It makes no sense, on many different levels. I
would be concerned that even though it appears to work, the DAC is
almost certainly not obtaining its clock directly from its internal
oscillator.

We are making arrangements to get a DCC2 in my hands to do further
testing, but it will take some time.


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wshields
2008-01-04 00:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the reply. I thought it was probably just a coincidence. I do
have everything set up correctly. The dac is definitely the master as
the timing changes when I switch from 44 to 48 setting on the dac. I am
not really sure why it seems to be working now and not before. (It
always seemed to work with the file settings as wav streaming) I
believe the setup is working correctly now. No popping sounds where
before there were many distinct popping sounds. I am not sure what
other variables have changed. ( I originally had the problem in the
beginning of march but once I seemed to fix by going to wav streaming,
I haven't really checked it) Haven't changed cables although I have
disconnected and reconnected cables a couple times.

I hope I won't have any more issues. I will be checking to see if any
updates once you get a dcc to play with.

Thanks
Walt Shields


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seanadams
2008-01-04 00:29:33 UTC
Permalink
wshields;254032 Wrote:
> I thought it was probably just a coincidence.

I think so too. There are some intermittent issues going on. Also from
achri-d's symptoms it seems there were things inconsistent from one run
to the next.

It is possibly related to this bug, although it may have nothing to do
with word clock input per se:
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4834


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mofuv
2008-01-04 11:20:27 UTC
Permalink
Really interesting discussions about 48kHz locking and using an external
word clock.

In my first setting I used the dcs scarlatti dac and the transporter.
If trasnporter was master and the dac was running as slave the quality
using the separate dac was slightly better than using the analogue
outpur of the transporter directly. Running the dac as master and the
transporter as slave (via BNC word clock signal cable)improved the
quality distinctly.

I decided then to add an upsampling unit to the system (dcs Purcell).
Having now three separate digital systems running I also added an
external master clock (dcs scarlatti). The master clock connects to the
transporter, the dac and the upsampler. All three are set to slave and
are locking to the master clock. I have to say I have never hear a
better system and this clearly shows that music delivered from a hard
disc via the tranporter is a better solution than using any other very
expensive CD player as a source.

I am not a technician and cannot judge on the theoretical arguments
used in your comments but I will try in the near future some different
settings which have been described in the threads and also try wether I
can lock the transporter to different frequencies.


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vpnogueira
2011-04-22 01:09:49 UTC
Permalink
seanadams;254037 Wrote:
> I think so too. There are some intermittent issues going on. Also from
> achri-d's symptoms it seems there were things inconsistent from one run
> to the next.
>
> It is possibly related to this bug, although it may have nothing to do
> with word clock input per se:
> http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4834

Dear Sean Adams,

Is it possible to transfer high def audio 24/96 from the Transporter to
EMM Labs DCC2 SE?

Thanks,

Vicente


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michael123
2011-04-22 12:18:28 UTC
Permalink
vpnogueira;626897 Wrote:
> Dear Sean Adams,
>
> Is it possible to transfer high def audio 24/96 from the Transporter to
> EMM Labs DCC2 SE?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vicente

I tested Transporter feeding EMM XDS1 via AES/EBU without any issues.


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vpnogueira
2011-04-22 15:14:29 UTC
Permalink
michael123;626956 Wrote:
> I tested Transporter feeding EMM XDS1 via AES/EBU without any issues.

Hello Michael,

Thank you! This is great news.

How much better is the XDS1 receiving 24/96 instead of 16/44or48?
Would you mind sharing the settings you use in the EMM Labs and
Transporter when feeding it 24/96 with AES/EBU?

How much better is the XDS1 or DAC2 compared to the DCC2 SE, do you
know? I am wondering if it is worth the upgrade to the DAC2.

Thank you in advance. You certainly have a fantastic equipment and
music.

Cheers,

Vicente


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michael123
2011-04-25 19:02:44 UTC
Permalink
vpnogueira;626973 Wrote:
> How much better is the XDS1 receiving 24/96 instead of 16/44or48?
Comparison of 16/44/48 to 24/96 has more to do with the quality of
recordings. There are certain 16/44 recordings that are better than
these in 24/96, however nothing can be compared to the best 24/96
recordings and XDS1 is quite good at that (it should be for its
price)!


vpnogueira;626973 Wrote:
> Would you mind sharing the settings you use in the EMM Labs and
> Transporter when feeding it 24/96 with AES/EBU?
I do not remember any particular settings, as far as I remember it is
plain plug-n-play


vpnogueira;626973 Wrote:
> How much better is the XDS1 or DAC2 compared to the DCC2 SE, do you
> know? I am wondering if it is worth the upgrade to the DAC2.
Do not know, sorry


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vpnogueira
2011-04-26 00:42:46 UTC
Permalink
Dear Michael,

Thank you very much!

I contacted EMM and now have the settings right.

If you don't mind me asking for more of your experience, do you still
use the Logitech Transporter with your EMM Labs? If so, is it
standard or modded? If modded, by whom? I have seen at least four Mods
for the Transporter (in this case, of course no need for a Mod in the
Dac or clock portion), but I was wondering if I a Mod would improve the
sound.

Cheers,

Vicente


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michael123
2011-04-26 03:02:57 UTC
Permalink
vpnogueira;627565 Wrote:
>
> If you don't mind me asking for more of your experience, do you still
> use the Logitech Transporter with your EMM Labs? If so, is it
> standard or modded? If modded, by whom? I have seen at least four Mods
> for the Transporter (in this case, of course no need for a Mod in the
> Dac or clock portion), but I was wondering if I a Mod would improve the
> sound.

Hi Vicente

The EMM is of my friend, not mine.
My Transporter is modded (by another friend), but if you're going to
use it solely as a digital transporter, then it is absolutely useless.


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vpnogueira
2011-04-26 04:11:34 UTC
Permalink
michael123;627584 Wrote:
> Hi Vicente
>
> The EMM is of my friend, not mine.
> My Transporter is modded (by another friend), but if you're going to
> use it solely as a digital transporter, then it is absolutely useless.

Hello Michael,

I have been trying to find the best way to feed the EMM labs using
music files from a computer instead of a CD or SACD, and using the EMM
as master clock to minimize jitter. I tried feeding the EMM labs DAC
connecting it to an apple TV (with itunes and WAV files) through a Hdmi
to spdif switch/converter, but the sound is substantially inferior to
the DAC connected to a levinson 37.

Reading this thread I was under the impression that since I can feed
the EMM Labs DAC using the Transporter and feeding the clock from the
EMM to the Transporter would minimize jitter, this would be the best
solution. I would then connect the transporter to a mac running Amarra
(which supposedly is better than itunes).

So, I don't understand why you say using the Transporter as a digital
transport would be useless. I understand it is quite important to use
the EMM Labs DAC clock as the master clock and I am not aware of any
other solution that would benefit from that. Is there a better way?

Thanks again. Sorry if I am asking too many questions. I am trying to
get this right.

Cheers,

Vicente


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michael123
2011-04-26 04:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Modding Transporter solely for digital transport purpose is useless, as
it is already very good (as digital transport)

Transporter can only be connected to Logitech Squeezebox Server through
the Ethernet (or wireless) link


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michael123
2011-04-26 17:42:50 UTC
Permalink
Vicente

FYI:
The friend with the EMM player bought Weiss INT202 to use with his
Mac.
If you're thinking of using Mac/Amarra as source, you shall consider it
as well..

--Michael


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transpose
2014-02-14 22:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Anyboy still here?

What is the level of the world clock IN required? Could not find those
spec.
My DAC outputs a word clock signal of 96kHz at roughly 5V peak-peak,
which seem to be to low for the transporter to lock on.

How much is required to work?


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vpnogueira
2011-04-02 19:26:13 UTC
Permalink
wshields;254032 Wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. I thought it was probably just a coincidence. The
> only reason I thought it might have had any effect was that I am using
> aes/ebu as main digital out and thought there was a small chance that
> the aes output might output data and other digital outs word clock in
> some software settings. Thinking about it now it doesn't make much
> sense that it would work that way. I do have everything set up
> correctly. The dac is definitely the master as the timing changes when
> I switch from 44 to 48 setting on the dac. I am not really sure why it
> seems to be working now and not before. (It always seemed to work with
> the file settings as wav streaming) I believe the setup is working
> correctly now. No popping sounds where before there were many distinct
> popping sounds. I am not sure what other variables have changed. When
> did you fix the software issue? ( I originally had the problem in the
> beginning of march but once I seemed to fix by going to wav streaming,
> I haven't really checked it) Haven't changed cables although I have
> disconnected and reconnected cables a couple times.
>
> I hope I won't have any more issues. I will be checking to see if any
> updates once you get a dcc to play with.
>
> Thanks
> Walt Shields


Dear Walt Shields,

I have an EMM Labs DCC2 SE, and after reading your posts, I would very
much appreciate your comments about the sound of the DCC2 feeding the
clock to the Transporter. If you prefer other alternatives (not
Transporter) to feed the DAC, feel free to e-mail me directly.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Cheers,

Vicente


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earwaxer9
2011-04-07 00:58:11 UTC
Permalink
vpnogueira;622740 Wrote:
> Dear Walt Shields,
>
> I have an EMM Labs DCC2 SE, and after reading your posts, I would very
> much appreciate your comments about the sound of the DCC2 feeding the
> clock to the Transporter. If you prefer other alternatives (not
> Transporter) to feed the DAC, feel free to e-mail me directly.
> Thank you in advance for your help.
> Cheers,
>
> Vicente

I drool over that ultra high end stuff!


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Kellen
2011-04-12 13:34:11 UTC
Permalink
I have a Transporter and I am curious about slaving it to a DAC's
clock.

I have found a DAC that interests me. It's a lessloss DAC 2004.

I note on the lessloss web site the following article on "how to slave
a CD player":

http://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=41&zenid=tplh7b62ogtefhfqkdi6t56ps5

In particular the following tidbit:

"How to Slave your CD Player to the DAC 2004

The CD or DVD player needs to have a generator (clock oscillator) of
the same frequency which is used in the DAC 2004. We ask that our
clients open up their CD player and check what frequency their clock
runs on. If your frequency is one of the following, then you can use
the DAC 2004 in Master Mode, which means you can run your CD player in
Slave mode (the best possible way).

Here are the frequencies you should look for:

11.2896 MHz
16.9344 MHz
33.8688 MHz

If you have any of these frequencies on your clock oscillator, let us
know and we will customize your DAC 2004 to run in Master Mode in
conjunction with your CD player. Any other frequencies are presently
not supported."


............... does anyone know if the Transporter employs either of
11.2896 MHz, 16.9344 MHz or 33.8688 MHz oscillator frequencies?


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achri-d
2008-01-03 23:01:12 UTC
Permalink
seanadams;253967 Wrote:
> OK... well if that is the case then it points to an interaction with one
> of the open bugs I am working on. It may be solved already for the new
> firmware that is in the works, but I will do some more testing and see
> if I can find an explanation. I still do not see any problem here, but
> some of these have been hard to reproduce.

So, please notify when it's fixed and I will test it. I am not a
regular visitor at this forum.

seanadams;253967 Wrote:
> If anywhere in my reasoning you have found a mistake, please point it
> out and we can discuss. Otherwise it's pretty silly to just not believe
> me because my conclusions conflict with what the high priced stereo
> vendors have told you.

I am not looking for mistakes - I want to know what you are talking
about in order to understand your logic and inference to make up my
mind. Why shouldn't I believe you?

On the other hand - this is practical engineering and it may happen
that other designers also know what they are doing and may be they were
able to design a PLL or other clock circuit that works?

-- Which concludes my posts on this subject.

Rgds.


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seanadams
2008-01-03 23:59:32 UTC
Permalink
achri-d;254017 Wrote:
> So, please notify when it's fixed and I will test it. I am not a regular
> visitor at this forum.

I will let you know when the new firmware is available. I can't promise
that it will fix your issue as I am still unable to reproduce the
problem. However, I am fixing other bugs related to the digital audio
logic and there is a good chance it will address the issue.

>
> I am not looking for mistakes - I want to know what you are talking
> about in order to understand your logic and inference to make up my
> mind. Why shouldn't I believe you?
>
> On the other hand - this is practical engineering and it may happen
> that other designers also know what they are doing and may be they were
> able to design a PLL or other clock circuit that works?
>

Sorry but I don't know what else to say. I think it will be much
clearer if you check out that URL in my previous post. It really is an
excellent explanation of the basic issues.

>
> -- Which concludes my posts on this subject.
>
> Rgds.

Fair enough.. I will be in touch by email. Thanks for your patience and
have a great new year.


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mofuv
2008-01-06 19:13:15 UTC
Permalink
seanadams;253693 Wrote:
> achri-d,
>
> I have been doing some testing just now with version 33 firmware and I
> am able to sync with any word clock frequency from 1KHz to 100KHz. I
> can also vary the frequency, unplug and re-plug the cable, or even set
> it to rapidly sweep a wide range of frequencies (that sounds really
> weird!) but it always stays synced.
>

I can confirm that also with firmware 31 the transporter (set to slave)
is locking correctly to 44.1 kHz and 48 kHz to an external word clock
serving as master.. It also transmits these frequencies to the dac via
AES. The dac locks to the frequencies sent to the transporter. Playing
44,1 kHz files with the word clock set to 48 kHz makes the sound speed
up, turning off the word clock slows it down distinctly.

But there is another issue: Playing 96 kHz/24bit files only creates
white noise with the external word clock. The white noise is speeding
up with 48kHz word clock input and shows lower frequencies at 44,1 kHz
and has very low frequencies without word clock input. Interestingly
now switching back to 44,1 kHz files creates the same white noise
symptoms. To cure it one has to shut down the transporter completely,
connect it again to the network and it is working fine again.

The 96 kHz files play fine when the transporter is set to master and it
transmits the information via AES to the dac correctly.

I have the impression that changing the input format of the files can
cause issues (if connected to an external word clock) and the
transporter has to be reset fully. It is often not enough to only
connect it again to the network, the best is to unplug it, wait for 20
sec and then to start again.

Maybe some of the different statements in this thread have been caused
with the transporter being in a different start setup when checking the
different situations.

Another minor issue is often occurring, which cost a lot of time to do
these checkouts: Reconnecting the transporter to the network the
transporter often shuts down during this procedure. One has to restart
this once, twice or even three times till it is connected to the
slimserver.

Maybe this is of some help to solve this issue.


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montanarane
2008-01-15 20:23:07 UTC
Permalink
I am interested to know how much jitter is present in the various
digital outputs from the transporter (Optical, RCA SPDIF, BNC SPDIF,
AES/EBU). Many Dacs dont have a clock output and rely on the quality
of the digital signal of the transport :)

I know it is hard to be objective but I am trying to figure out how
good the transporter is as a digital transport (primarily without a
clock input from the dac, but also as a slaved transport).

Thanks,


Montana Rane


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mofuv
2008-01-15 21:41:54 UTC
Permalink
jeanadams has given the answer in another thread, here it is:

jitter is lowest for streaming (17ps), and higher for s/pdif (50-200 ps
depending on the source).

S/PDIF is a unidrectional connection which transmits clock and data
together, which is why the clock is subject to degradation.

In contrast, the network is _only_ a data connection. The clock is
generated internally.

It is possible to get better performance with s/pdif only if the source
supports a word clock input. In that case you can get the same
performance as when streaming.


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montanarane
2008-01-15 22:45:08 UTC
Permalink
Hmmm... I am a little confused by your reply. I am trying to find out
how much jitter is present on the various transporter digital outputs
(the input is assumed to be streaming). I was hoping seanadams might
have this data.

My goal is to compare the transporter as a transport to various cd
based transports regarding jitter. I am specifically asking about
jitter on the various outputs since testing of cd based transports has
found that jitter varies from circuit to circuit.

Montana Rane


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seanadams
2008-01-15 22:56:08 UTC
Permalink
It's just a number, but the best I have seen on the receiving end fed by
a Transporter would be about 35ps RMS. That's a BNC going into a scope
with tee and a 75R terminating resistor right on the input. That is
your lower bound. Then the receiving circuit will add some by the time
it gets to the DAC chip - that is a function of whatever you hook it up
to.

Can you clarify your question - are you trying to compare figures with
a CD player? It is not possible unless they are measured in the same
way and in the same environment. Also many manufacturers will just tell
you that it's whatever their crystal vendor says it is, which is
completely meaningless.


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vijayt
2008-01-31 17:36:20 UTC
Permalink
I have been going through the threads on this subject and am vague on
the need for the Master Clock as it seems that it would be necessary
only when the master clock is driving multiple devices.

Does anyone use the Audio Synthesis DAX with their ASL Audio Synthesis
Link, or ASL, which is a dual-ST glass optical interface. ASL removes
S/PDIF's data induced jitter and rewrites the rules of data recovery
and thus the possible analogue resolution available from digital
sources.

The the transport has to be modified by Audio Synthesis. Since the
intergace is dual-ST glass, I do not know if it would work under the
current version. However, is it something that will improve
performance and, if so, a mod for consideration by Slim Devices. Thi


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Ciaran
2008-06-23 16:58:09 UTC
Permalink
A related issue arose in a thread I started here yesterday. I did a
Google search on "External Word Clock" and, lo and behold! found myself
back at this forum on this thread. I have dCS Elgar Plus DAC, Verdi la
Scala Transport and Verona Word Clock. I am interested in downloading
high resolution audio files and playing them through the Elgar. The
Transporter seems to be about the only device capable of doing this
over a wireless network (which would be convenient), and it is an
attraction for me that it has an external clock connection, so I could
use the Verona as master clock for both (even if Sean thinks this is
perverse and wrong!!). John Atkinson 'reviewed the Verona'
(http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/305dcs/) very positively
in -Stereophile- in 2005 (you may think -Stereophile- reviews are
rubbish, but they were very positive about the Squeezebox and the
Transporter, and brought them to my attention and that of many other
audiophiles (and John Atkinson is a lot more level-headed than Michael
Fremer, though I do blame him for persuading me to buy a Benchmark
DAC-1)). Now the Verona only outputs 44.1kHz and 48kHz (other dCS
devices can multiply these up as required (probably adding to the
wrongheadedness of the external master clock from Sean's point of
view)): but what will the Transporter do with, say, a 96kHz file when
it's being fed a 48kHz word clock signal?

To get to the point: if I buy a transporter, will I be able to use it
to feed 88.2/24 and 96/24 digital signals to my Elgar while clocking it
at 44.1 or 48 with my Verona?


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Nonreality
2008-06-24 00:31:57 UTC
Permalink
With the experts gathered here I'm hoping to get a couple of answers
that have me a bit perplexed. Earlier on this thread it was implied
that the bandwidth of a wireless router was not enough for high quality
sound. What rates are the real high quality music? I've checked my
SB3's wireless test and it runs 100% up to 4-5000kbps. I know a
regular wave file is in the 1400 range and works perfect, why isn't
this enough for almost any file type? There must be something I'm not
taking into account. The second question is that a lot of the gains
that you are getting takes place in the quiet ranges of the music and
in the difference of the low and high. What kind of rooms do you have
to enable you to hear this well enough to make use of the gains? Mine
is only reasonably quiet when I'm the only one here but still there is
air movement, heating AC etc, other electronic noises that make the
nuances hard in some cases but at the levels you are talking must be
very hard. Do you have rooms that are isolated from all that? This is
interesting stuff for me. Not all of the audiophile stuff is as it
seems sometimes to be a pissing match over who can out knowledge the
other. This thread has been interesting more on the scientific side.
Anyway no hurry on the answers, they just have been bugging me. Thanks


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Pat Farrell
2008-06-24 00:49:47 UTC
Permalink
Nonreality wrote:
> With the experts gathered here I'm hoping to get a couple of answers
> that have me a bit perplexed. Earlier on this thread it was implied
> that the bandwidth of a wireless router was not enough for high quality
> sound. What rates are the real high quality music?

I think it was more carefully that WiFi may have problems.

RedBook audio is 172 Kbytes/second. Flac is about half that.
http://www.pfarrell.com/prc/bits.html

172 Kbytes/second is over 1.3 megabit/second.
So Flac really needs 700k bits/second.

This is a significant portion of 11b networking, which is all that a SB1
could do. So with an ancient SB1, its marginal.

With any more recent stuff, SB2, SB3, SB Classic, Duet, you can run 11g.
It claims to be five times faster than 11b. This provides a fair amount
of headroom. But WiFi is a shared media, it is shared with bluetooth,
Zigbee, microwaves, some wireless phones, and your neighbor's WiFi.

So the fewer WiFi hops the signal has to make, the better. Most folks
run their SqueezeCenter hard wired with Ethernet to the Wireless
router/access point. I ran CAT5 cable to my Transporter. But I ran over
1500 feet of CAT5 in my house, so it was no big deal.

My serious stereo is in my living room, far away from the air
conditioner, and far away from the server with SqueezeCenter.

The room (and speaker placement in the room) can easily be the most
important thing for sound quality, once you get above a minimum level.
Rectangular rooms are death. Add book cases and stagger the books (do
*not* make it neat with all the same sized books on the shelves.



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Nonreality
2008-06-24 05:50:46 UTC
Permalink
It's been one of the things that has really impressed me about the SB3
is how well the wireless has worked and sounded. Granted it's only
about 25 feet away from my access point but it has been fantastic. I
run both Flac and Lame mp3 220 vbr and never have dropouts or any loss
of quality. Yes I don't have the 20k system that would maybe show me
the errors of my way but I do have a decent system for the average guy.
So in the right conditions, wireless can handle about anything but the
possibility exists and why do it if you invest a ton in your equipment.
That about right? I guess I do have one Audiophile characteristic in
that not keeping things neat is no problem here. :] Thanks for the
info my friend.


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GuyDebord
2007-12-28 19:34:45 UTC
Permalink
mofuv;240184 Wrote:
> I am not working for dcs nor do I have any affiliation with them. But
> they make great products. The sound I get with the transporter and the
> scarlatti is the best I have ever heard. I am running in parallel a
> Linn Akurate CD player. EAC ripped CD's in my system can fully compare
> to the same discs played with their SACD side on the Linn.
>
> I have no drop outs when the scarlatti DAC is set to master and the
> transporter to slave, everything works perfectly well.
>
> The only issue is that the DAC can only be switched to master when the
> transporter is sending the information on the sampling frequency
> usually 44.1. But the transporter does this only when he receives a
> clock signal. When that happens I have to set the transporter back to
> master (internal clock), switch the DAC then to master and after this
> the transporter back to slave.
>
> Since I have connected the transporter to the QNAP directly not linked
> through my router (to avoid interferences from the router) I must
> disconnect it every time from the router and connect it to the
> computer. This is time consuming. The world clock setting should be
> possible directly at the transporter and not only through the
> slimserver webinterface.

With such a sophisticated digital frontend, why rely on a slow QNAP? I
have already experienced with 2 NAS's (QNAP and Buffallo) and they all
have been terrible to install, terrible to follow for any customization
and very slow for music scans and pretty much everything else. I got
tired and bought a Mac Mini and installed it as a fully dedicated music
server, and I wish I had done it before, I bought a very small good
looking high resolution lcd monitor that is most of the time turned off
and got the logitech wireless media mouse and a mac bluetooth keybord
and any time I need to change settings, create playlists, revise
labels, etc. I can do it without a problem from my listening chair and
in a snap, unlike with the NAS's and besides a mac mini almost costs
the same as a NAS....


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Reference 3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration
cables, REL Strata 5 sub. AMP: Pathos Classic One MKIII. ANALOGUE:
Michell Gyro SE, Technoarm & Lyra Helikon SL cartridge, ASR Mini Basis
SQ phono preamp linked with Audioquest ColoradoÂ’s. DIGITAL: Mac Mini,
SlimDevices Transporter linked with van den Hul The Second XLRÂ’s.
POWER: Isotek Mini-sub GII, Isotek Elite cables (Mini-Sub, Rel &
Transporter) van den Hul Mainstream cable (Pathos) & van den Hul
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mofuv
2007-12-28 20:41:58 UTC
Permalink
GuyDebord;252222 Wrote:
> With such a sophisticated digital frontend, why rely on a slow QNAP?

I fully agree. The QNAP is very slow, also I was not satisfied using a
TranquilPC. The transporter had difficulties to connect to and to get
data from the tranquiPC running slimserver . The digital and analogue
output of the transporter did not send any signals after 10 to 30 sec
and the tranporter had to be resetted.

Now I am using a Laptop with two external 800 firewire 1TB HDD from
Western Digital. They are also very quiet and the overall handling is a
lot better.


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