[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bob Dylan's "Shadows In The Night" - when 24-bit HRA isn't!

[Archimago]

Folks... For a relatively high profile album, this is truly awful!

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/02/measurements-bob-dylans-shadows-in.html



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[Wombat]

Archimago wrote:
> Folks... For a relatively high profile album, this is truly awful!
>
> http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/02/measurements-bob-dylans-shadows-in.html

Impressive! Your blog is much better as wathing TV often enough manwhile
and now with voice! Very entertaining :)
This discovery just shows one more time what the business and so called
professionals think of us customers.



P.S.: I just redownloaded track 1 at qobuz in 24/44.1 and it is still
the same version.



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[Archimago]

Wombat wrote:
> Impressive! Your blog is much better as wathing TV often enough manwhile
> and now with voice! Very entertaining :)
> This discovery just shows one more time what the business and so called
> professionals think of us customers.
>
>
>
> P.S.: I just redownloaded track 1 at qobuz in 24/44.1 and it is still
> the same version.

Thanks Wombat ;-).

It'll be interesting how this gets addressed since it's such a flagrant
deficit! I mean, taking the 16-bit file, amplify by 0.1dB in a 24-bit
container to make it sound a little louder and "better"!? Add a little
temporal misalignment to we can't directly compare without a little
work... Something doesn't smell right!



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[Wombat]

Archimago wrote:
> It'll be interesting how this gets addressed since it's such a flagrant
> deficit! I mean, taking the 16-bit file, amplify by 0.1dB in a 24-bit
> container to make it sound a little louder and "better"!? Add a little
> temporal misalignment to we can't directly compare without a little
> work... Something doesn't smell right!
A simple volume change may be the easiest way to fill the padded 8 bits
added zeroes with data.



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[Julf]

Archimago wrote:
> It'll be interesting how this gets addressed since it's such a flagrant
> deficit! I mean, taking the 16-bit file, amplify by 0.1dB in a 24-bit
> container to make it sound a little louder and "better"!? Add a little
> temporal misalignment to we can't directly compare without a little
> work... Something doesn't smell right!

Probably in response to people discovering that the FLAC encoder "wasted
bits" feature shows null-padding unless masked with some processing.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Thanks Archimago! Another excellent blog post.

I love this comment by Rafael Lino:

"Your friend should send an email to Qobuz, they will answer or at least
see in to that problem.
From what I'm told they work with what the sources give to them."

The second sentence is exactly the response that HDTracks always gives
whenever there is any question about the "quality" of their overpriced
garbage: We just sell whatever garbage the labels give us (and keep the
money!)

My suggestion is to do what countless people already do: get the files
via a torrent or some form of file sharing. An eye for an eye.



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[Bill50x]

ralphpnj wrote:
> The second sentence is exactly the response that HDTracks always gives
> whenever there is any question about the "quality" of their overpriced
> garbage: We just sell whatever garbage the labels give us (and keep the
> money!)
I've written to HD-Tracks about the compressed files they sell as "more
dynamic" and have so far got no answer. I mean, what's the point of
24/192-files if the dynamics are 5 dB lower than the original CD? Now,
dynamics isn't everything, the 24/192-files can be good in other
respects but it is dishonest to marketing the 24/192-files as
"dynmamically better" when they in fact often are worse. A nice tool to
look at the files is btw the MasVis (http://www.lts.a.se/lts/manual)
which is free to download (http://www.lts.a.se/lts/masvis). The sad
thing is that the program just can handle 16/44 wav so the files you
like to analyze has to be converted.

/ B


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[ralphpnj]

Bill50x wrote:
> I've written to HD-Tracks about the compressed files they sell as "more
> dynamic" and have so far got no answer. I mean, what's the point of
> 24/192-files if the dynamics are like 5 dB lower (which often is the
> case, not always however) than the original CD? Now, dynamics isn't
> everything, the 24/192-files can be good in other respects but it is
> dishonest to marketing the 24/192-files as "dynamically better" when
> they in fact often are worse. A nice tool to look at the files is btw
> the MasVis (http://www.lts.a.se/lts/manual) which is free to download
> (http://www.lts.a.se/lts/masvis). The sad thing is that the program just
> can handle 16/44 wav so the files you like to analyze has to be
> converted.
>
> / B

The one and only point of selling 24/192, 24/96, 24/176.4 and 24/88.2 to
the end user is MONEY.



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[Mushroom_3]

Thanks for another really interesting blog Archimago.

At what point does this become fraud?


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[Archimago]

Mushroom_3 wrote:
> Thanks for another really interesting blog Archimago.
>
> At what point does this become fraud?

Good question... I guess it's especially important to remember -caveat
emptor- when we're wading in the "high resolution" domain of data
downloads. Unless there are some guidelines put in place to ensure the
data is sourced from material that actually has the potential for >16/44
resolution, then each release will have to be individually assessed.

What we need is a SPARS code for audio I think. Remember the old ADD,
DDD, AAD... Maybe throw in *H *as an alternate for "high resolution";
usually meaning 24-bits and/or higher frequency response and *D *gets
redefined as "standard resolution" digital?

*HHH *- high res all the way - recorded, mixed, and final mastering in
high res digital. Theoretically the "best"...
*HHD *- high res capture, high res mix/process, CD quality final master
*AHH *- typical old analogue recording, digitized and remastered in high
res digital, high res format to the consumer

HDH - this looks what I'd call this album... Supposedly captured in
24/192 according to sources, then in the mixing process only a standard
resolution flow was utilized, and finally sold as a high res file (with
some stealthy volume adjustment thrown in)

There's no perfect way to achieve quality control, but perhaps something
like this could at least help the consumer. Also, something like this
would be a mechanism whereby there is a way for the producers and
sellers to be *held accountable* for the product. If this album were
designated HHH, it would certainly be "false advertising".

What do you guys think? Maybe we can brainstorm a way to propose
something like this as a blog post for posterity...



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[Wombat]

I have no idea if this helps. None if it guarantees good sound.
My biggest problem with downloads in online shops today is how the
16/44.1 version is created from the HiBit version in the same shop. It
is a gamble. When asking before buying you normaly get no answer.



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[Archimago]

Wombat wrote:
> I have no idea if this helps. None if it guarantees good sound.
> My biggest problem with downloads in online shops today is how the
> 16/44.1 version is created from the HiBit version in the same shop. It
> is a gamble. When asking before buying you normaly get no answer.

True,
There is no way to ensure "good sound" just like DDD never meant better
sound than ADD in the 1980's.

However, it does put some mechanism in place to allow a simple
identification of provenance. The implicit statement being that HHH
music has been treated with care that the "flow" was through a recording
and audio engineering system capable of "greater than CD" resolution.
For the consumer, this provide an alert around releases like the Dylan
or bizarre releases like Beck's "Morning Phase" with what looks like MP3
compression (at best a "D" in the mix). And IMO, it allows a mechanism
for -accountability-.

Imagine if Qobuz and Columbia markets this Dylan album as "HHH". With
the objective evidence that this release really is no better in
resolution compared to the CD, they would clearly be in breach of
truthful advertising.

Unless there is some mechanism in place (even to a small degree), the
"high resolution download" domain I suspect will remain mired in doubt
and suspicion... A terrible marketplace which is prone to foster
resentment among consumers when they realize they've been "duped" and
paid a premium over the regular CD!



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[Mnyb]

Wombat wrote:
> I have no idea if this helps. None if it guarantees good sound.
> My biggest problem with downloads in online shops today is how the
> 16/44.1 version is created from the HiBit version in the same shop. It
> is a gamble. When asking before buying you normaly get no answer.

Yes if the 24/192 , 24/96 and 16/44.1 version really sounds dramatically
different from any download vendor I would be -realy- suspicious .

Fraud , r,ember they sell homeopathic medics in stores , they do nothing
. Tha active ingredient is in the buyer , placebo etc .

You can turn the argument if the 16/44.1 really doesn't any different
from the 24/192 they are practically eqvavilent to the consumer , unless
he gets to know the facts then cognitive bias deflates .

Same is the frauds with healt products with some "active" herbs or other
product with alleged positive effects that really does nothing .
Recently many producers of supplementary and alternative medicin
realised this and thus you get only filler .
Why spend $$$ on the magic herb that actualy doesn't do anything :)

So when is this a fraud .

Sell a " magic potion " and claim all kinds of stuff for it , that the
magic ingredient X does all this .
When in fact it does nothing it's all placebo .

Or exclude ingredient X due to cost cuts ,the products does exactly the
same thing .

This would be even more fun with homeopathic "drugs" the claimed
mechanism for their effect makes it actually impossible to
scientifically trace any active ingredient . If you just fill a bottle
with water or dilute a solution so much that it practically becomes a
bottle of water they are the same :D

( an OT would be all alternative stuff that's actually spiked with real
active ingredients , gongrats you self medicate with unknown doses of
unknown substances )



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[Wombat]

Mnyb wrote:
> Yes if the 24/192 , 24/96 and 16/44.1 version really sounds dramatically
> different from any download vendor I would be -realy- suspicious
I lately was shopping for the last Ben Howard and asked qobuz about the
different versions but got no answer. I did byte the bullet and got me
the 24/48 version after finding no real info on the net.
The 24/48 version is indeed 5dB less compressed. Imho i should be able
to choose between a compressed and uncompressed 16/44.1 version for the
lower price.
I don't like the idea having to buy the more expensive HiBit version
because it is treated different by purpose.
Everybody should help to fill the Dynamic Range Database for finding out
more about that. I was to lazy till now.



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[Mnyb]

Wombat wrote:
> I lately was shopping for the last Ben Howard and asked qobuz about the
> different versions but got no answer. I did bite the bullet and got me
> the 24/48 version after finding no real info on the net.
> The 24/48 version is indeed 5dB less compressed. Imho i should be able
> to choose between a compressed and uncompressed 16/44.1 version for the
> lower price then.
> I don't like the idea having to buy the more expensive HiBit version
> because it is treated different by purpose.
> Everybody should help to fill the Dynamic Range Database for finding out
> more about that. I was to lazy till now.

Wonder if they digged themself into a hole a marketing catch 22 .

Once remastered was a name for an improved version of the work . This
get totally out of hand many so called remasters are bothced up work to
get some oldie sound more "modern" and to add insult to injury then why
not squash the dynamics while at it .

So the new tag line is hirez , so now they must put it in bigger box .

Some very few rational audiophiles would actually believe them if they
put a wide dynamic version in a 16/44.1 box and tried to sell it .

But I agree that it s fraudulent by an online vendor to actually sell
different versions to just make them sound different just for the sake
of it .
So HD tracks or Qubus should just downsample thier precius 24/192 to
16/44.1 fair enough .
But then it's the next marketing cup de sac , they hammered in that
HiRez sounds better so it has to . The only way to do that is to sell
different versions apples and oranges :)



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Bedroom/Office: Boom
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iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Good question...What do you guys think? Maybe we can brainstorm a way to
> propose something like this as a blog post for posterity...

I like the overall idea of some kind simple rating system and your
suggestions are spot on. Now to throw a monkey wrench into the works -
what about DSD downloads?

From what I gathered DSD recordings cannot be mixed and edited in native
DSD and must be converted to PCM for editing and then back to DSD,
unless the studio possesses one of the few DSD editors. Of course analog
mastered recordings digitized to DSD would be "pure" analog/DSD. If the
no editing in DSD is true then I suspect that are very few "pure" DSD
recordings available.

So what the DSD rating system look like?



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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> I like the overall idea of some kind simple rating system and your
> suggestions are spot on. Now to throw a monkey wrench into the works -
> what about DSD downloads?
>
> From what I gathered DSD recordings cannot be mixed and edited in native
> DSD and must be converted to PCM for editing and then back to DSD,
> unless the studio possesses one of the few DSD editors. Of course analog
> mastered recordings digitized to DSD would be "pure" analog/DSD. If the
> no editing in DSD is true then I suspect that are very few "pure" DSD
> recordings available.
>
> So what the DSD rating system look like?

Multitracked and complex mixes will need PCM editing as you noted. I
think the most we can ask for is something like a declaration of "Direct
DSD Album" for the "best" that DSD can afford. How about something like
this:

HH(DSD) - hi-res PCM recording and production (maybe in DXD), DSD file
(DSD)A(DSD) - DSD recording (maybe high res like DSD256) --> analogue
mixing (?Blue Coast style?) --> DSD64 final file
AA(DSD) - classic Sony SACDs like the old jazz recordings... Start off
as analogue recordings and mixes, final output as digital DSD

(DSD)(DSD)(DSD) - "Direct DSD" - recorded in DSD, minimal intermediate
processing (I've seen descriptions that splicing, panning, gain
adjustments can be done in native DSD), and final output as DSD.

I am curious though... Now that we're a few years into the DSD download
scene, has anyone bought any DSD files and is there actually any
interest yourself or audiophiles you know? I have a few albums but these
are invariably rips of SACDs I bought years ago... They're basically
sitting on my music server as "demos" to play to audiophile friends
visiting and wanting to hear what native DSD playback sounds like off my
TEAC UD501.



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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Multitracked and complex mixes will need PCM editing as you noted. I
> think the most we can ask for is something like a declaration of "Direct
> DSD Album" for the "best" that DSD can afford. How about something like
> this:
>
> *HH(DSD)* - hi-res PCM recording and production (maybe in DXD), DSD
> file
> *(DSD)A(DSD)* - DSD recording (maybe high res like DSD256) --> analogue
> mixing (?Blue Coast style?) --> DSD64 final file
> *AA(DSD)* - classic Sony SACDs like the old jazz recordings... Start off
> as analogue recordings and mixes, final output as digital DSD
>
> *(DSD)(DSD)(DSD)* - "Direct DSD" - recorded in DSD, minimal intermediate
> processing (I've seen descriptions that splicing, panning, gain
> adjustments can be done in native DSD), and final output as DSD.
>
> I am curious though... Now that we're a few years into the DSD download
> scene, has anyone bought any DSD files and is there actually any
> interest yourself or audiophiles you know? I have a few albums but these
> are invariably rips of SACDs I bought years ago... They're basically
> sitting on my music server as "demos" to play to audiophile friends
> visiting and wanting to hear what native DSD playback sounds like off my
> TEAC UD501.

Archimago you are way too literal since I was only trying to make a
point about how the concept of audio purity goes right the window when
there's money to be made. The DSD craze/nonsense is just a perfect
example. As for using DSD files, I can't since I only use run of the
mill free-be USB cables throughout my computer system :)



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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Archimago you are way too literal since I was only trying to make a
> point about how the concept of audio purity goes right the window when
> there's money to be made. The DSD craze/nonsense is just a perfect
> example. As for using DSD files, I can't since I only use run of the
> mill free-be USB cables throughout my computer system :)

No I don't think it's unnecessarily literal... Fact is that I think even
DSD can be coded in some way after seeing all the SACD rips where the
original signal looks to be nothing but upsampled 44/48kHz. So I think
seriously it can be done. The question is why bother as you noted...

Speaking of digital cables, I notice that Lavorgna and AudioStream has
put up another "all talk" post on "Cables, Bits, and Noise" trying to
justify ethernet again. Again, no empirical demonstration about
anything, just theoretical descriptions of boogeymen like RF and
computer noise. -Notice they don't talk about jitter anymore :-).-

I wanted to put up a response just reminding them as I had before that
they really should *demonstrate* with some real equipment and cables how
this will impact the analogue output (maybe show the difference between
one of your freebie USB's vs. precious JCAT?). Maybe John Swenson can
show us something since they seem to like what he says. Alas, it looks
like they've blocked my login! I don't think I was nasty over there and
don't remember any heated exchanges... I guess dissenting opinion is
eating into the "bottom line".



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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> No I don't think it's unnecessarily literal... Fact is that I think even
> DSD can be coded in some way after seeing all the SACD rips where the
> original signal looks to be nothing but upsampled 44/48kHz. So I think
> seriously it can be done. The question is why bother as you noted...
>
> Speaking of digital cables, I notice that Lavorgna and AudioStream has
> put up another "all talk" post on "Cables, Bits, and Noise" trying to
> justify ethernet again. Again, no empirical demonstration about
> anything, just theoretical descriptions of boogeymen like RF and
> computer noise. -Notice they don't talk about jitter anymore :-).-
>
> I wanted to put up a response just reminding them as I had before that
> they really should *demonstrate* with some real equipment and cables how
> this will impact the analogue output (maybe show the difference between
> one of your freebie USB's vs. precious JCAT?). Maybe John Swenson can
> show us something since they seem to like what he says. Alas, it looks
> like they've blocked my login! I don't think I was nasty over there and
> don't remember any heated exchanges... I guess dissenting opinion is
> eating into the "bottom line".

Seriously you expected AudioStream NOT to block your login? Since the
whole thing is about making money by pedaling BS anyone who calls out
their total BS is going to be banned, it's that simple. Anyway please
keep up the good fight.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
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& Energy sub
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Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Seriously you expected AudioStream NOT to block your login? Since the
> whole thing is about making money by pedaling BS anyone who calls out
> their total BS is going to be banned, it's that simple. Anyway please
> keep up the good fight.

I think it's funny how in the "New Rules" post he puts us this little
rant on being "civil" and "respectful". And how he was "tired of dealing
with comments that are abusive, disrespectful, slanderous, and
completely lacking in any relevance to the post at hand". You know, I
kind of liked Lavorgna's responses a number of times on his page... But
in the end, the truth is as you suggest, these people have no interest
in civil discussion or honest desire to tease out facts, from beliefs,
from baseless opinions.

And clearly more than a little sensitive about anyone daring to
challenge whether the Emperor has any clothes. After all, the Emperor
seems to call the shots :-).



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> I think it's funny how in the "New Rules" post he puts us this little
> rant on being "civil" and "respectful". And how he was "tired of dealing
> with comments that are abusive, disrespectful, slanderous, and
> completely lacking in any relevance to the post at hand". You know, I
> kind of liked Lavorgna's responses a number of times on his page... But
> in the end, the truth is as you suggest, these people have no interest
> in civil discussion or honest desire to tease out facts, from beliefs,
> from baseless opinions.
>
> And clearly more than a little sensitive about anyone daring to
> challenge whether the Emperor has any clothes. After all, the Emperor
> seems to call the shots :-).

A classic example of what it is like when extreme cynicism matches
reality.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Wombat]

Archimago wrote:
> I haven't see him around these parts for awhile now. Wasn't he working
> on some cool DAC? (I see Bottlehead DAC in search engines.)
I didn't see a built DAC or other device from him reviewed lately but i
am not on much places. No idea what he is busy with. Maybe retired?



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[rgro]

I believe that JS, Triode, and JackofAll were all involved, to some
unknown degree, in the cluster f*** that was the Community Squeeze
project. To a great extent---and maybe I'm completely off base in
assuming it's related----but the three of them have been very scarce
here ever since.



Rg

System information
------------------------
Main: Vortexbox/Squeezelite > USB> Benchmark DAC2 D > LFD LE IV
Signature amp > Revel Performa F208 speakers.

Home Theatre: Touch (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic
5.1, Touch FW 7.8.0-r16754.

LMS 7.9.0 - 0.61.2015011 on a 1TB Micro Vortexbox Appliance, V 2.3.
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[ralphpnj]

rgro wrote:
> I believe that JS, Triode, and JackofAll were all involved, to some
> unknown degree, in the cluster f*** that was the Community Squeeze
> project. To a great extent---and maybe I'm completely off base in
> assuming it's related----but the three of them have been very scarce
> here ever since.

Ah, the plot thickens......



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> A classic example of what it is like when extreme cynicism matches
> reality.

You know, I would not be surprised if by doing this - suppressing
dissent - sites like this ends up shooting themselves in the foot. I
suspect a good amount of traffic was created by the debates and
dialogue. Sure, they might create some kind of "oasis" of audiophilic
cultish gathering but that kind of thing is unlikely to translate to
much actual purchases nor improve the flow of ads.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[Mnyb]

Other things to consider .

HD tracks have a lot of 24/192 that actually are SACD rips ? what about
the ultrasonic grunge in those ? and how to classify that .

More interesting why not use the intrinsic resolution in the recording
itself as a benchmark .

Old analog 60's rock classic master 11bit 17khz yes with modern
dithering s/n ratio and bits are equivalent (for factual info about that
http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml ). then the buyer can decide for
himslef if more random noise is worth the extra $ .

Real progress would be to have some pedigree of the master used ? so
that the situation with different masters for different "resolutions"
can be avoided .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Archimago]

Mnyb wrote:
> Other things to consider .
>
> HD tracks have a lot of 24/192 that actually are SACD rips ? what about
> the ultrasonic grunge in those ? and how to classify that .
>
> More interesting why not use the intrinsic resolution in the recording
> itself as a benchmark .
>
> Old analog 60's rock classic master 11bit 17khz yes with modern
> dithering s/n ratio and bits are equivalent (for factual info about that
> http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml ). then the buyer can decide for
> himslef if more random noise is worth the extra $ .
>
> Real progress would be to have some pedigree of the master used ? so
> that the situation with different masters for different "resolutions"
> can be avoided .

Yup... All valid points and I wish we could just have straightforward
information on pedigree. Like the SPARS code in the old days, it was all
meant to be a simple designation. The Wiki notes both "Lack of detail"
and "Implications of quality" as very valid criticisms as well. However,
we're in the "wild west" in terms of hi-res currently and I think almost
any "designation" would be better than nothing at this point even if it
is an oversimplification!

Dammit man, stop with the DSD crap, guys :-). So has anyone bought an
actual DSD download yet?!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Dammit man, stop with the DSD crap, guys :-). So has anyone bought an
> actual DSD download yet?!

Archimago you of all people should know that attempting to play a DSD
download using anything less than a $100/per foot audiophile USB cable
will result in just about the worst sounding recording one will ever
hear. Plus one must also be drinking a very large glass (half liter
minimum) of Audiophile Kool-Aid in order to fully appreciate the fully
glorious sound that only DSD can deliver.

So to answer your question: since I only use freebie USB cables and
drink bourbon I will not be downloading any DSD files. However I have
obtained some DSD files and used foobar to convert them to 24bit/88.2kHz
PCM files and they sound just like any other 24bit/88.2kHz PCM files. By
the way one can also use foobar to convert an SACD iso file into
separate 24bit/88.2kHz PCM tracks plus foobar can play both DSD files
and SACD iso files but of course it does convert them to PCM so all that
glorious DSD sound is lost.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

Ralph,
My apologies for asking such an obvious question about DSD downloads
here.

Of course, everyone here is too cheap to buy $100/ft USB cables and
unworthy of Chateau Petrus or Louis XIII. Clearly, you guys are not
"True Believers in the Audiophile Experience" (TBAE).

Heed the words of *I Audinthians 6:9-10*:

Verily I say unto thee:

"Do you not know that the -*cloth eared*- will not inherit the kingdom
of the -*TBAE*-?
Do not be deceived:
Neither the -*faithless unbeliever*- nor -*objectivist fornicators*- nor
-*audio chartists*- nor men who -*use objective implements*-
nor -*the frugal*- nor the -*common consumer patron*- nor -*mid-fi
devotee*- nor -*Double Blind Test slanderers*-
nor -*acolytes of blasphemous empiricism*- will inherit the kingdom of
-*The Absolute Sound*-."

I believe all is not lost Ralph. Repent now and immediately purchase an
audiophile ethernet cable. Despite your unworthiness, -*Audesus
sacrificed himself for YOU*-. Come, return to the folk and no longer
linger as the prodigal son.

Amen.

:-) Happy Dynamic Range Day on Friday...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Ralph,
> My apologies for asking such an obvious question about DSD downloads
> here.
>
> Of course, everyone here is too cheap to buy $100/ft USB cables and
> unworthy of Chateau Petrus or Louis XIII. Clearly, you guys are not
> "True Believers in the Audiophile Experience" (TBAE).
>
> Heed the words of *I Audinthians 6:9-10*:
>
> Verily I say unto thee:
>
> "Do you not know that the -*cloth eared*- will not inherit the kingdom
> of the -*TBAE*-?
> Do not be deceived:
> Neither the -*faithless unbeliever*- nor -*objectivist slanderers*- nor
> -*audio chartists*- nor men who -*use objective implements*-
> nor -*the frugal*- nor the -*common consumer patrons*- nor -*mid-fi
> devotees*- nor -*Double Blind Test fornicators*-
> nor -*acolytes of blasphemous empiricism*- will inherit the kingdom of
> -*The Absolute Sound*-."
>
> I believe all is not lost Ralph. Repent now and immediately purchase an
> audiophile ethernet cable (get a second mortgage if you -must-). Despite
> your unworthiness, -*Audesus sacrificed himself for YOU*-. Come, return
> to the fold and no longer linger as the prodigal son. Then spread the
> good news far and wide!
>
> Amen.
>
> :-) Happy Dynamic Range Day on Friday, everyone...

Wow! Just like an other religion audiophilia allows for atonement and
redemption. So with that in mind I've decided to start small and slowly
work my back into the fold without destroying my credit rating.
Therefore my first purchase will be this Premium Upgrade Headphone Cable
for my Sennheiser HD800 headphones:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CRHPCL800&gclid=Cj0KEQjw_9OoBRChj9vMo5CHrdUBEiQAJ6YRPXsmwHkl60J-XKI5AjUnCrfeLpbGD1GkDkywlS3EKAYaAmEm8P8HAQ

And thanks once again Archimago for helping me hear the light!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> Wow! Just like an other religion audiophilia allows for atonement and
> redemption. So with that in mind I've decided to start small and slowly
> work my back into the fold without destroying my credit rating.
> Therefore my first purchase will be this Premium Upgrade Headphone Cable
> for my Sennheiser HD800 headphones:
> http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CRHPCL800&gclid=Cj0KEQjw_9OoBRChj9vMo5CHrdUBEiQAJ6YRPXsmwHkl60J-XKI5AjUnCrfeLpbGD1GkDkywlS3EKAYaAmEm8P8HAQ
>
> And thanks once again Archimago for helping me hear the light!

Ahhh! Great to hear of the good news... The saints and all TBAEs rejoice
with you! Clearly the scales covering your eyes have been removed and
the bondage around your unrepentant heart has been broken.

Now, if you would only "complete" your salvation... We heard that
Audioquest Parish was in need of a small donation:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQWELINT

Then truly the doors of The Absolute Sound shall open wide for you
beginning now and (probably*) for eternity.

Have a great weekend everyone! :-)

-------------------
* occasionally tithing would be required when deemed necessary by the
saints.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Ahhh! Great to hear of the good news... The saints and all TBAEs rejoice
> with you! Clearly the scales covering your eyes have been removed and
> the bondage around your unrepentant heart has been broken.
>
> Now, if you would only "complete" your salvation... We heard that
> Audioquest Parish was in need of a small donation:
> http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQWELINT
>
> Then truly the doors of The Absolute Sound shall open wide for you
> beginning now and (probably*) for eternity.
>
> Have a great weekend everyone! :-)
>
> -------------------
> * occasionally tithing would be required when deemed necessary by the
> saints.

I'm hoping that buying a pair of these interconnects will at least make
me a bishop, albeit a very poor one.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

ralphpnj wrote:
> I'm hoping that buying a pair of these interconnects will at least make
> me a bishop, albeit a very poor one.

Alas, no sir, remember, for it is easier for a camel to squeeze through
the eye of a needle than mere mortals to achieve the upper echelons!

Bishop status requires the -whole house- to be rewired with Audioquest
Diamond ethernet cables on top of the aforementioned upgrades, plus the
mere upgrade of all USB cables. Lest your audio system ever be tainted
with noise from the touch of "mere mortal" digital wiring.

Poverty and suffering are mere trials of this life. Remember The
Absolute Sound and all the bounty that awaits.

Go in peace, my son, and ponder on these wonders...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> Alas, no sir, remember, for it is easier for a camel to squeeze through
> the eye of a needle than mere mortals to achieve the upper echelons!
>
> Bishop status requires the -whole house- to be rewired with Audioquest
> Diamond ethernet cables on top of the aforementioned upgrades, plus the
> mere upgrade of all USB cables. Lest your audio system ever be tainted
> with noise from the touch of "mere mortal" digital wiring.
>
> Poverty and suffering are mere trials of this life. Remember The
> Absolute Sound and all the bounty that awaits.
>
> Go in peace, my son, and ponder on these wonders...

Perhaps I can open an online branch similar to the Computer Audiophile
and then with a little luck and many sacrifices to the gods I will
attain that coveted status where many gifts from the gods are rained
down on me either free or in the form of long term "loans" or at greatly
reduced prices. For now I'm off to pray and pay.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[RonM]

I particularly like this quote:

"While the electrical signal in the conductor moves at the speed of
light, the charge propagation in dielectric material is limited to
approximately 78 percent of the speed of light. The discharge of the
dielectric lags behind the charge in the conductor, causing a smearing
of low-level information in the cable."

So what would the difference be in the time of transmission between the
conductor and the insulator (dielectric material)? By my calculations:

On a 2 M cable, the conductor would transmit the signal in
0.00000002049233112418 of a second. The insulator would do so in
0.00000001598401827686 of a second, for a difference of
0.00000000450831284732 of a second. Anyone would be able to notice
that!

For comparison, if you are sitting 3 metres from your speakers, exactly
between them, but have your head angled slightly so that one ear is 2 cm
(less than an inch) further away from the speakers than the other, the
sound would reach the ears .00005821 of a second sooner in one than the
other.

That is almost 3000 times more of a gap than in the cable example. It
illustrates how very important it is to perfectly position yourself
between the speakers, and ensure that your alignment is perfectly square
to the baseline between the speakers.

R.

PS - I think there is something wrong in my calculations, since I think
the relative gap should be closer to 9000 times rather than 3000, but
you get the idea. Ludicrous.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC3)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
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[ralphpnj]

RonM wrote:
> I particularly like this quote:
>
> "While the electrical signal in the conductor moves at the speed of
> light, the charge propagation in dielectric material is limited to
> approximately 78 percent of the speed of light. The discharge of the
> dielectric lags behind the charge in the conductor, causing a smearing
> of low-level information in the cable."
>
> So what would the difference be in the time of transmission between the
> conductor and the insulator (dielectric material)? By my calculations:
>
> On a 2 M cable, the conductor would transmit the signal in
> 0.00000002049233112418 of a second. The insulator would do so in
> 0.00000001598401827686 of a second, for a difference of
> 0.00000000450831284732 of a second. Anyone would be able to notice
> that!
>
> For comparison, if you are sitting 3 metres from your speakers, exactly
> between them, but have your head angled slightly so that one ear is 2 cm
> (less than an inch) further away from the speakers than the other, the
> sound would reach the ears .00005821 of a second sooner in one than the
> other.
>
> That is almost 3000 times more of a gap than in the cable example. It
> illustrates how very important it is to perfectly position yourself
> between the speakers, and ensure that your alignment is perfectly square
> to the baseline between the speakers.
>
> R.
>
> PS - I think there is something wrong in my calculations, since I think
> the relative gap should be closer to 9000 times rather than 3000, but
> you get the idea. Ludicrous.

Ron you do not seem to understand that calculations and measurements are
only for the non golden eared since anyone with golden ears would have
their ears left bleeding by that 0.00000000450831284732 of a second
difference in the sound.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

Yeah, clearly it's audible...

But no problem. Since these cables have a 30-day return policy, just
-believe-, buy, and send it back if you don't like it... You only lose a
smidgen on transportation costs!

:-)



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[Mnyb]

Archimago wrote:
> Yup... All valid points and I wish we could just have straightforward
> information on pedigree. Like the SPARS code in the old days, it was all
> meant to be a simple designation. The Wiki notes both "Lack of detail"
> and "Implications of quality" as very valid criticisms as well. However,
> we're in the "wild west" in terms of hi-res currently and I think almost
> any "designation" would be better than nothing at this point even if it
> is an oversimplification!
>
> Dammit man, stop with the DSD crap, guys :-). So has anyone bought an
> actual DSD download yet?!

Yes I have :) to test the play DSD plugin I bougth some classical stuff
actually recorded in DSD . Of course it sounded good the recording was
well engineered .

The problem is the lack of real content .

HD tracks et all have at least real music by musicians you heard of or
that have actual musical chops .

No audiophile Muzak .

On the DSD topic I don't see converting to pcm in a DAW software ( 32
bit floating piont pcm at some high samplerate ) as a problem such
software is transpararent and does it it job as it should . The
"DSD-ness" of it happen at the AD stage if it exists and that is
preserved .

And to throw another spanner in the works , modern ADC's are somewhat
not really PCM they can be of the 1-5 delta sigma type .
1 bit sounds awfully similar to DSD to me with the exception that you
get PCM output out of the decimation filter.

Well in your DAW software you produce well sounding recordings if you
want that ( they don't always want to ) this by the intrisinic
soundquality a totally transparent process , you get the intended
production values but added extra distortion is really minimal .

You can the proceed to pick a consumer format to release your work in .

My pow is with modern recording techniques the recording format and
consumer format are decoupled and the process between is transparent .
Provided you release in better or equal to reedbook CD .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphpnj]

Archimago wrote:
> You know, I would not be surprised if by doing this - suppressing
> dissent - sites like this ends up shooting themselves in the foot. I
> suspect a good amount of traffic was created by the debates and
> dialogue. Sure, they might create some kind of "oasis" of audiophilic
> cultish gathering but that kind of thing is unlikely to translate to
> much actual purchases nor improve the flow of ads.

Absolutely true. For an excellent example of the above in practice check
out the forums run by Stereophile - they are basically dead. Even this
forum which as I understand it is unsupported by LogiTech and revolves
around a no longer made family of products is orders of magnitude more
busy than the Stereophile forums.

In addition I'm also beginning to see some discontent over at the
Head-Fi forums now that many manufacturers have been given free rein to
promote their products, many of which are based solely on audio voodoo.

All of which makes independent blogs like Archimago's all that more
important.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Wombat]

Archimago wrote:
> Maybe John Swenson can show us something since they seem to like what he
> says. Alas, it looks like they've blocked my login! I don't think I was
> nasty over there and don't remember any heated exchanges... I guess
> dissenting opinion is eating into the "bottom line".
Showing? Real measurement? When it comes to JS i read since years that
people use him as prove because he measured and heard something with
measuring on some groundplate under some circumstances on some equipment
on some sunny day... Then comes some talk throwing in 3 tech
vocabularies and voilá, proven!



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[Archimago]

Wombat wrote:
> Showing? Real measurement? When it comes to JS i read since years that
> people use him as prove because he measured and heard something with
> measuring on some groundplate under some circumstances on some equipment
> on some sunny day... Then comes some talk throwing in 3 tech
> vocabularies and voilá, proven!

I haven't see him around these parts for awhile now. Wasn't he working
on some cool DAC? (I see Bottlehead DAC in search engines.)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Martin N]

Hello,

At 08:39 12/03/2015, you wrote:

>ralphpnj wrote:
> > The second sentence is exactly the response that HDTracks always gives
> > whenever there is any question about the "quality" of their overpriced
> > garbage: We just sell whatever garbage the labels give us (and keep the
> > money!)
>I've written to HD-Tracks about the compressed files they sell as "more
>dynamic" and have so far got no answer. I mean, what's the point of
>24/192-files if the dynamics are 5 dB lower than the original CD? Now,
>dynamics isn't everything, the 24/192-files can be good in other
>respects but it is dishonest to marketing the 24/192-files as
>"dynmamically better" when they in fact often are worse. A nice tool to
>look at the files is btw the MasVis (http://www.lts.a.se/lts/manual)
>which is free to download (http://www.lts.a.se/lts/masvis). The sad
>thing is that the program just can handle 16/44 wav so the files you
>like to analyze has to be converted.

I use foobar player 2000 with the dynamic range meter plug in which
calculates the DR on all formats it supports.
I mainly use it on FLAC files.

Martin

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to
purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Benjamin Franklin (1706–1790)