Discussion:
Excited about Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III
dhallag
2014-04-11 21:48:14 UTC
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Here is a review and thread about the new Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III.

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?98652-Jolida-Glass-FX-Tube-DAC-III

I've ordered one and wanted to share my excitement.


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Archimago
2014-04-11 23:26:05 UTC
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Post by dhallag
Here is a review and thread about the new Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III.
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?98652-Jolida-Glass-FX-Tube-DAC-III
I've ordered one and wanted to share my excitement.
Enjoy...

I've hear 2 DACs with tubes. An Eastern Electric one switchable between
tube and solid state and a Wrightmod Oppo BDP-105.

Wondering what the tube-DAC-loving folks are hoping to achieve. I
actually got a chance to measure the Wrightmod unit but never got around
to posting the results... Mainly because I wasn't sure the measurements
were done right or if there was an issue with that unit. The tube output
stage certainly made things sound (and measure) different!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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Julf
2014-04-12 11:03:48 UTC
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Post by Archimago
Wondering what the tube-DAC-loving folks are hoping to achieve.
I think you answer this yourself: :)
Post by Archimago
The tube output stage certainly made things sound (and measure)
different!
"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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dhallag
2014-04-12 16:29:33 UTC
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Post by Archimago
Enjoy...
I've hear 2 DACs with tubes. An Eastern Electric one switchable between
tube and solid state and a Wrightmod Oppo BDP-105.
Wondering what the tube-DAC-loving folks are hoping to achieve. I
actually got a chance to measure the Wrightmod unit but never got around
to posting the results... Mainly because I wasn't sure the measurements
were done right or if there was an issue with that unit. The tube output
stage certainly made things sound (and measure) different!
haha... good different or bad different?


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Archimago
2014-04-12 17:15:20 UTC
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Post by dhallag
haha... good different or bad different?
Well... That depends if you believe non-flat frequency response and
harmonic distortion could result in euphonic outcome. They very well
could and I certainly didn't think the DACs sounded bad. I didn't like
the Eastern Electric MinMax tube stage as much as the solid state
because the noise level was clearly inferior at higher volumes. The
MinMax is interesting in that it allows mode switching and so allows the
listener to judge for him/herself.

In all seriousness though. I hope you enjoy the new DAC and tell us what
you think! I haven't heard Jolida gear in awhile, the last time was >5
years ago on an Asian trip and whatever model tube amp it was sounded
very good.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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dhallag
2014-04-12 18:03:12 UTC
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Post by Archimago
Well... That depends if you believe non-flat frequency response and
harmonic distortion could result in euphonic outcome. They very well
could and I certainly didn't think the DACs sounded bad. I didn't like
the Eastern Electric MinMax tube stage as much as the solid state
because the noise level was clearly inferior at higher volumes. The
MinMax is interesting in that it allows mode switching and so allows the
listener to judge for him/herself.
In all seriousness though. I hope you enjoy the new DAC and tell us what
you think! I haven't heard Jolida gear in awhile, the last time was >5
years ago on an Asian trip and whatever model tube amp it was sounded
very good.
I'm definitely not an audiofile like everyone here -- but I'll do my
best to compare what I hear with and without (using touch as DAC) the
DAC. I'm not sure if all USB cables are created equal and would imagine
not. Any suggestion on a moderately priced USB cable?

thanks...


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Julf
2014-04-12 18:38:04 UTC
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I'm not sure if all USB cables are created equal and would imagine not.
Why not? Have you seen archimago's tests?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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dhallag
2014-04-12 19:09:22 UTC
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Post by Julf
Why not? Have you seen archimago's tests?
so I just read this:

http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/04/measurements-usb-cables-for-dacs.html

ok -- thanks for the education! I guess it doesn't make a difference.


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Julf
2014-04-12 19:38:04 UTC
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Post by dhallag
ok -- thanks for the education! I guess it doesn't make a difference.
There are people who really, really believe (almost like the Elactric
Monk) that they do make a difference, but funny enough they tend to go
quiet when it is pointed out that if there is a difference, the effect
of the cable should very much vary depending on the type of both source
and DAC (some DACs should be much more sensitive than others).



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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dhallag
2014-04-12 20:25:15 UTC
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Post by Julf
There are people who really, really believe (almost like the Elactric
Monk) that they do make a difference, but funny enough they tend to go
quiet when it is pointed out that if there is a difference, the effect
of the cable should very much vary depending on the type of both source
and DAC (some DACs should be much more sensitive than others).
I also saw the Touch Transport numbers and I was so happy to see that
there are no audible differences between USB/Coax/Toslink. (The more
and more I learn about the Touch), the more impressed I am with this
technology. So your point is sound on how the Jolida will handle Coax,
Toslink or USB may make a difference. I don't know if I am going to
actually have 192/24 music -- right now I only have one album here.
Since the difference between 192/24 and 96/24 is ultrasonic, I don't see
a need here.

What I was really surprised about was the measurements of the Analog RCA
Connects:
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/05/measurements-analogue-rca-interconnects.html
I figured there would be an audible difference and maybe to some it
would, but based this, I imagine that for most, there isn't an audible
difference.

Overall, I am very happy to know scientifically that as long as you have
a shielded cable, that's all you really need and thus no need to waste
money on cables. Much appreciated the advise to read Archimago's
measurements.


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Archimago
2014-04-13 03:56:59 UTC
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Post by dhallag
I also saw the Touch Transport numbers and I was so happy to see that
there are no audible differences between USB/Coax/Toslink. (The more
and more I learn about the Touch), the more impressed I am with this
technology. So your point is sound on how the Jolida will handle Coax,
Toslink or USB may make a difference. I don't know if I am going to
actually have 192/24 music -- right now I only have one album here.
Since the difference between 192/24 and 96/24 is ultrasonic, I don't see
a need here.
What I was really surprised about was the measurements of the Analog RCA
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/05/measurements-analogue-rca-interconnects.html
I figured there would be an audible difference and maybe to some it
would, but based this, I imagine that for most, there isn't an audible
difference.
Overall, I am very happy to know scientifically that as long as you have
a shielded cable, that's all you really need and thus no need to waste
money on cables. Much appreciated the advise to read Archimago's
measurements.
A pleasure, dhallag.

Many moons ago, I was very much influenced by purely subjective reviews
and suggestions. I remember being entranced by the green CD pen,
captivated by the theories around Peter Belt's remarkable "foil", and
all manner of audiophile tweaks... Yes, including the various cables;
making and testing many of my own.

But I did take to heart the suggestion to "find out yourself" during one
of these forum debates - but of course not as the guy suggested (ie.
spending ridiculous $$$ on buying and listening to crazy expensive power
cables, USB cables, and the like to gather "experience" with the
esoterica - that would never settle anything!). The blog in many ways is
a personal testimony of that journey out of a purely subjective mindset
using what I had around the house (an unused E-MU0404 as ADC) and
software freely available on the Internet. While I don't claim authority
in definite answers based on just the tests, I do insist during
discussions and debates that the other side show me what evidence they
have beyond vague impressions. I try to keep my mind open and am totally
willing to change my viewpoint if there is reason and evidence.

Now as for the Touch - yes, amazing technology for the price! Bar none
the best value for the money I have spent on audio gear. The thing that
really blew me away was when I tested that TosLink output with EDO
firmware and discovered it worked with my ASUS Essence One DAC at
*24/192*... I had never come across this before and I think this speaks
to the quality of the parts and the design.

Enjoy the hobby!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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Julf
2014-04-13 07:58:54 UTC
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This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
ralphpnj
2014-04-13 12:12:02 UTC
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Post by Julf
Glad to hear. Just like Archimago, I too started out as a "real
audiophile" years ago, believing all the voodoo and folklore basically
based on "if everybody keeps saying it, it must be true". Fortunately an
engineering education helped me to "go out and find for yourself". What
also helped was coming across, and helping to debunk some of the
non-audiophile-related cults, superstitions and outright frauds. A very
educating experience aboout the gullibility of the human mind - and the
ways that gets exploited.
I think that the "I too was once a true kool-aid drinking audiophile" is
pretty much the norm for must of the regular posters on this forum and
that is why many of us express such strong feelings when we encounter
suspect audiophile claims. Remember there are no greater zealots than
converts.

My move away from swallowing audiophile voodoo hook, line and sinker
started when I moved into computer based digital audio. What I was
experiencing on a daily basis when playing digital music and what was
being claimed in the audiophile press were less and less in alignment.
Many things being claimed, from on the fly flac to wav conversions
degrading the sound (note: never any mention of alac to wav conversions
- I wonder why ;)), to high end digital cables "sounding" better, ran
counter to my own first hand experiences and from very well established
scientific theories and laws.

So as the effects of kool-aid wore off I became more and more of a
selective nonbeliever. I say "selective" since many audiophile
principles, especially those based on good scientific theories, are
still completely valid and their application often results in better
sounding equipment. However the high end audio press' outright refusal
to submit any of their unscientific claims to any kind of scientifically
valid testing has only served to strengthen my anti-audiophile feelings.
As it was things were not looking good for the audiophile side of things
and then I started to "follow the money" and the audiophile cause was
completely lost.

While the lofty and stated goal of of high end audio is to provide "good
sound", there is another more important goal at work, which is to sell
product and which I am in no way against. However in the pursuit of
selling product there is a need to make any given product appear more
desirable than other similar products and we barraged with silly
marketing claims. At one time the audio press was willing to debunk many
of these claims but those days are now long gone. It is now up to the
consumer to try and gather some truthful information and make educated
buying decisions. Thanks to people like Archimago we are now able to
directly refute many of the more outrageous audiophile claims and put
our buying power on the side of proven and truthful claims.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
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cliveb
2014-04-15 08:12:41 UTC
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Post by ralphpnj
I think that the "I too was once a true kool-aid drinking audiophile" is
pretty much the norm for must of the regular posters on this forum
Since we're exchanging stories of how we came to see the light...

Back in the early 2000's I compared my Micro-Seiki CD-M100 CD player (16
bit 4x oversampling multibit Philips chipset) to a Lucid DA9624 (24 bit
96kHz DAC using some kind of sigma-delta conversion technology). The two
DACs could hardly be more different.

Level matched with a 1kHz test tone, and connected via a Nakamichi CA7
preamp to ATC SCM100A speakers. I was surprised how similar they
sounded, but convinced myself that the Lucid seemed somewhat more
detailed. So I then asked my wife to run a blind comparison, and scored
precisely 50% - ie. there was no audible difference.

Having your audiophile beliefs exposed to be illusory via a blind test
is a "Road to Damascus" experience.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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darrenyeats
2014-04-15 12:09:57 UTC
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I've also had such disillusioning moments.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Psychological bias is very real and very pervasive, but the fact sighted
impressions are unreliable doesn't mean they are always wrong. Any more
than failure to prove someone is guilty means they didn't do it! Process
and governance and reliability of evidence is one thing, what is
actually the case is another.

http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/features-menu/general-interest-interviews-menu/455-searching-for-the-extreme-bruno-putzeys-of-mola-mola-hypex-and-grimm-audio-part-one

"You might then have this DAC which listeners feel has a “shine,” that
puts an unnatural shine everywhere, and then suddenly you find this
noise modulation when digging deeper, and you realize that might be the
answer for why."

There is no mention of double blind listening in his working method -
just because it's sighted doesn't mean it's WRONG. It just means you
can't be sure it's right and that's a DIFFERENT THING!



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
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Julf
2014-04-15 14:24:53 UTC
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But the fact sighted impressions are unreliable doesn't mean they are
wrong.
Unfortunately that is logically pretty close to "just because we have no
evidence that unicorns might exist, we can't prove they *don't* exist".
There is no mention of double blind listening in his working method
Just because there is no mention of it in that specific interview
doesn't mean double blind listening isn't part of his working method.
just because it's sighted doesn't mean it's WRONG. It just means you
haven't proved it's right, it might be psychological - and that's a
DIFFERENT THING!
Right. So the next step, if you think you can hear a difference, is to
verify it. By double-blind listening.
We had the example on PFM of a skeptical listener hearing no difference
between sources - turns out they differed wildly in output level, way
above received wisdom of audibility - but he heard no difference.
Expectation bias cuts both ways, remember that.
Indeed. So sighted listening allows for bias both ways, double blind
removes the bias - whichever way your bias goes.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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darrenyeats
2014-04-15 15:53:32 UTC
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Post by Julf
Unfortunately that is logically pretty close to "just because we have no
evidence that unicorns might exist, we can't prove they *don't* exist".
It's a nice argument, but I don't know of mythophile forums where people
claim they see unicorns every day.

I can also point to many scientific discoveries of active ingredients in
old wives tales medicines that turned out to be real.

But a selective example like that would be as informative as the unicorn
example i.e. not very.

The point being, you are not always wrong when you hear something.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
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Julf
2014-04-15 18:06:30 UTC
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The point being, you are not necessarily the victim of bias because you
hear something.
So the next step, if you think you can hear a difference, is to verify
it. By double-blind listening.
Sent from my desktop computer using a a web browser



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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mlsstl
2014-04-15 20:38:49 UTC
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I'm a firm believer that blind testing is an excellent way to separate
out the subjective non-audio influences that often affect what people
hear. (An excellent general book on the subject is Cordelia Fine's "A
Mind Of Its Own", it's an entertaining read that clearly shows how
susceptible all humans are to subjective influences, though the book
isn't about the audio hobby.)

However, at some point, the blinders come off, so to speak, and the
listener is back to using the equipment with full knowledge of what's
there. Even if there is no true audible difference, many people may
prefer one item over another because of the non-audio subjectivities.
It's kind of like eating a meal in a restaurant -- the general
atmosphere and actions of the staff can enhance or detract from the
experience no matter how good the food by itself. The same is true of
audio. In my book, if fat wires, a thick faceplate and obscure exclusive
brand names bring a little extra joy to the listening experience, go for
it!

I use a tube amp, not because it sounds better, but because I like tube
equipment for aesthetic reasons -- a fondness from building and working
on tube gear over 40 years ago.

The great irony with most subjectivists is they just can't admit to
themselves, much less anyone else, that subjective factors affect their
judgement. So, you end up with bizarre denials about blind testing, wild
theories about exotic factors affecting sound, and a smug self-assurance
that their golden ears and superior knowledge place them well above the
hoi-polloi when it comes to audio choices.


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ralphpnj
2014-04-15 21:10:41 UTC
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Post by mlsstl
I use a tube amp, not because it sounds better, but because I like tube
equipment for aesthetic reasons -- a fondness from building and working
on tube gear over 40 years ago.
The great irony with most subjectivists is they just can't admit to
themselves, much less anyone else, that subjective factors affect their
judgement. So, you end up with bizarre denials about blind testing, wild
theories about exotic factors affecting sound, and a smug self-assurance
that their golden ears and superior knowledge place them well above the
hoi-polloi when it comes to audio choices.
I think a clearing of the air is in order.

I don't know about the other forum members but speaking for myself I
have no problems with "subjectivists" who behave as you yourself behave
- they are aware of the subjectivity of their beliefs but chose to
accept them anyway. What I do have a problem with are subjectivists who
declare their beliefs, many of which run completely counter to well
proven scientific facts, to be true and refuse to admit that more
rigorous testing is needed. The situation is even worse when these
subjectivists are "professional" audio reviewers and publish their false
beliefs in glossy magazines in order to bring in advertising revenue.

Due to these subjectivists who are "professional" audio reviewers over
the past few years the audio industry has seen several different trends,
none of which have led to any improvement in the sound of digital
audio:

1) The asynchronous USB craze - I'm unaware that any human can hear the
jitter in regular USB. But that's the least of it since asynchronous USB
is also claimed to be superior to coax, toslink and even Ethernet - pure
nonsense.

2) the high resolution audio craze - again can anyone consistently hear
the difference between high resolution and properly down-sampled
standard resolution (down-sampling the high resolution to standard
resolution ensures that the same mastering is being used on both
versions.)

3) The DSD craze - again, can anyone consistently hear the difference
bewtween DSD and PCM?

4) The high end USB cable craze - my personal favorite and a real money
maker.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Mnyb
2014-04-15 21:56:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by mlsstl
I'm a firm believer that blind testing is an excellent way to separate
out the subjective non-audio influences that often affect what people
hear. (An excellent general book on the subject is Cordelia Fine's "A
Mind Of Its Own", it's an entertaining read that clearly shows how
susceptible all humans are to subjective influences, though the book
isn't about the audio hobby.)
However, at some point, the blinders come off, so to speak, and the
listener is back to using the equipment with full knowledge of what's
there. Even if there is no true audible difference, many people may
prefer one item over another because of the non-audio subjectivities.
It's kind of like eating a meal in a restaurant -- the general
atmosphere and actions of the staff can enhance or detract from the
experience no matter how good the food by itself. The same is true of
audio. In my book, if fat wires, a thick faceplate and obscure exclusive
brand names bring a little extra joy to the listening experience, go for
it!
I use a tube amp, not because it sounds better, but because I like tube
equipment for aesthetic reasons -- a fondness from building and working
on tube gear over 40 years ago.
The great irony with most subjectivists is they just can't admit to
themselves, much less anyone else, that subjective factors affect their
judgement. So, you end up with bizarre denials about blind testing, wild
theories about exotic factors affecting sound, and a smug self-assurance
that their golden ears and superior knowledge place them well above the
hoi-polloi when it comes to audio choices.
Enjoy your vacuum tube gear for what it is :) is it some kind of classic
design ?

I get cranky when the type of " golden ear " you describe invoke very
far fetched ideas that their DHT or other tube gear somehow "resolves"
stuff that SS gear can't resolve at all ? and sound more true to the
source ? When in fact in you can show the absolute opposite is true .
Just admitt that you like the sound despite that it migth not be correct
to the source .

Sadly , there is anew breed of tube design that differ very much from
the classical stuff ,who at its hayday was the pinnacle of engineering
McIntosh and Quad , Marantz etc they did it scientifically and as good
as they could as tubes was what they got .

The new retro tube stuff may sometimes be designed in ways that would
baffle the designers of old ?
It usually has a very large quantity of other audiophile lore built in
and is very expensive , I especially loathe Audio Note in any form
*urgh* I think they even have managed to broke the very essential I/V
converter that many DAC's uses with some very nonlinear silver coil
passive design , but I'll stop there . There are to many weird tweaks
done to some tube gear to mention ,sometimes they have the full spectrum
of all things gone bad the last 30 years in one package , almost a
showcase of how not to do ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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mlsstl
2014-04-15 23:24:38 UTC
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Post by Mnyb
Enjoy your vacuum tube gear for what it is :) is it some kind of classic
design ?
I've got an Image Audio 65i with KT88s that I picked up used a few years
back. Pretty standard circuits, but very well built and good
transformers. I like the visual design and it works well with my Spendor
SP1/2Es. I had a Bel Canto S300 prior to this which sounded excellent,
but couldn't resist the opportunity to go back to tubes.

I'm also long past the stage where I worry what others think of my gear,
my choice in music, or that their philosophy differs from mine.

15831


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Mnyb
2014-04-16 00:51:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by mlsstl
I've got an Image Audio 65i with KT88s that I picked up used a few years
back. Pretty standard circuits, but very well built and good
transformers. I like the visual design and it works well with my Spendor
SP1/2Es. I had a Bel Canto S300 prior to this which sounded excellent,
but couldn't resist the opportunity to go back to tubes.
I'm also long past the stage where I worry what others think of my gear,
my choice in music, or that their philosophy differs from mine.
15831
The KT88 concept seems familiar ,nice picture .



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Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Julf
2014-04-16 07:00:06 UTC
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Post by mlsstl
I use a tube amp, not because it sounds better, but because I like tube
equipment for aesthetic reasons -- a fondness from building and working
on tube gear over 40 years ago.
Not only that, but I actually like the sound of my tube amp - for some
types of stuff. But I *know* it is because of the distortion and
colouring. Would never claim it is "better" in any absloute sense.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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