Discussion:
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Study finds ...
Paul Webster
2016-06-29 09:03:15 UTC
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Just pointing out the pigeons to the cats.


http://eecs.qmul.ac.uk/news/view/people-can-hear-the-difference-in-high-resolution-audio-study-finds



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cliveb
2016-06-29 10:02:28 UTC
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Post by Paul Webster
Just pointing out the pigeons to the cats.
http://eecs.qmul.ac.uk/news/view/people-can-hear-the-difference-in-high-resolution-audio-study-finds
As an alumnus of Queen Mary, I hesitate to call into question their
statement. But the claims they are reporting go against a large number
of studies that have time and again shown no ability to discriminate
between redbook and "hi-res" under properly controlled conditions.

Nowhere in QMC's synopsis does it mention whether this meta-analysis was
careful to include only those studies which used the same masterings in
level matched double blind comparisons. Unless the hi-res master is
downsampled to redbook for the purposes of the comparison, all bets are
off.

Anyone have any more details about this study?



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utgg
2016-06-29 10:21:40 UTC
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Post by cliveb
Anyone have any more details about this study?
Full paper is freely available here: http://www.aes.org/journal/


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arnyk
2016-06-29 12:06:00 UTC
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Post by utgg
Full paper is freely available here: http://www.aes.org/journal/
Note that unlike most AES papers, the download is at this time totally
free.

The meta study could be summarized as follows:

One of the funnier aspects of the article can be found en by checking
the footnotes. There are papers describing approaches to this problem
going back to 1931, and still all the high res advocates like this
author can come up with is a call for more experiments!

Even with some pretty obvious cherry picking of results, the best the
author could come up with is according to Table 2, a total of 12,645
trials with 6,736 or 53.27% correct responses. This is 3.27 % better
than placebo.

In most areas of human endeavor, people would call this sort of weak
performance a lost cause. The call for more testing looks to me like a
lame attempt to obfuscate the absence of compelling results after over a
century of trying and over 10,000 trials, even after fairly obvious
cherry-picking.


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cliveb
2016-06-29 13:51:18 UTC
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Post by utgg
Full paper is freely available here: http://www.aes.org/journal/
Thanks for the pointer. As Arny says, it's unusual to be able to freely
download AES papers - so I had naively assumed it wouldn't be easily
available.
I will download and study it.



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pablolie
2016-06-30 16:10:16 UTC
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The key here is if they define "CD Quality" as hi-bitrate MP3 (256k+) or
an uncompressed CD. The article doesn't say (perhaps the study does).

I can differentiate between the two (although most of the time for
relaxed music listening I may not care much about the difference). As to
the same recording in 16/44 vs 24/192... nah. Maybe it's because my
testing was limited to 3 albums (none of which were originally mastered
at 24/192, but rather in analog), but I doubt it, and honestly they
sound amazing the way it is. And I just think the obsessions about
minimal nuances totally stands in the way of enjoyment, but that's a
different matter.



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pablolie
2016-06-30 16:14:15 UTC
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I was curious about the paper's definition, and came across this...

".. This can be transformed into an XY
test by assuming that correct discrimination is made when
24 bit / 192 kHz was rated higher than 16 bit / 44.1 kHz, and
incorrect discrimination if 24 bit / 192 kHz was rated lower
than 16 bit / 44.1 kHz. *Results where they are rated equal
are ignored*, since there is no way of knowing if participants
perceived a difference but simply considered it too small
compared to differences between other formats, and hence
cannot be categorized. .."

Whoa. Really? I think them being rated equal is very significant.



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drmatt
2016-06-30 18:00:12 UTC
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As to the same recording in 16/44 vs 24/192... nah.
Given that many DACs can't really resolve much more than 16 bits and you
can't hear above 20khz this is not a surprise. Though maybe you have a
very good DAC?

I think the study defines CD quality as 16/44 uncompressed (or lossless
compression).




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cliveb
2016-06-30 18:48:53 UTC
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Having now downloaded and read the paper, I am concerned about the
criteria used to select which studies were included in the
meta-analysis. Unless I've missed something, all I can see is that
studies were selected based on the comparison methodology - ie. the
manner in which the redbook and hi-res material was compared. Nowhere
did I see any mention that studies would only be considered where the
redbook material had been downsampled from the hi-res. Any comparison
which does not obtain its sources in this manner is flawed and should
not be included in any meta-analysis. This is such a fundamental
criteria that the fact it is not mentioned seems a little suspicious.



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pablolie
2016-06-30 19:14:33 UTC
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Though maybe you have a very good DAC?
As my sig shows, I use a Benchmark DAC2 HGC as my reference, fed through
the Touch - of course that means that as a rule the 24/192 material is
down-sampled a tad. That said, I have also done tests sending files via
USB with Jriver Media Center, and couldn't discern a difference, be it
through speakers or headphones.

I should also note I didn't get the Benchmark because I am convinced it
sounds oh-so-much better than other DACs - I got it for convenience
because of the feature set and a myriad of input and output options that
make it quite versatile.

And of course there are far more esoteric audiophile jewelry options
than the DAC2, and if that's really the bottleneck... well, blame it on
my middle-aged ears (I have done the test and my hearing ends at 17kHz).
:-P

...paul



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Paul Webster
2016-07-03 10:35:16 UTC
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Post by cliveb
As an alumnus of Queen Mary
Me too.

Fancy a trip down to Mile End Road for a chat with the authors?



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cliveb
2016-07-05 15:52:01 UTC
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Post by Paul Webster
Me too.
Fancy a trip down to Mile End Road for a chat with the authors?
When were you there?
I was at QMC between 1975 and 1978, studying Computer Science. (Well, I
started trying to do physics, but the maths got too hard :-)



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Paul Webster
2016-07-07 06:11:53 UTC
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Post by cliveb
When were you there?
I was at QMC between 1975 and 1978, studying Computer Science. (Well, I
started trying to do physics, but the maths got too hard :-)
Couple of years behind ... maybe you helped me load the asteroids game
onto the only graphics terminal to the side of the card reader ...
Started doing Maths with Computer Science (enjoyed maths at school and
only computing experience was writing Fortran after school on coding
sheets) and ended up with Computer Science with Maths (like you ...
Maths became too hard / theoretical).



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Julf
2016-07-07 17:15:21 UTC
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The audioXpress seems to be the first print mag to go gaga over the
study. In the intro by Editor-in-Chief Joao Martins, he writes:

"In this extensive study, which can be freely downloaded here, Reiss
painstakingly analyzes data from 18 studies involving 450 participants
listening to samples of music in different formats. In total, the
studies involved more than 12,000 different trials where participants
were asked to discriminate between formats. The conclusions state,
without any doubt, that "listeners can hear a difference between
standard audio and better-than-CD quality, known as high-resolution
audio," ...at least sixty percent of the time."



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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ralphpnj
2016-07-08 18:56:14 UTC
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Post by ralphpnj
Okay so how long before references to this study appear in all the
various high end audio publications and web sites?
I'm pretty sure that the article will be used like a giant club in an
attempt to beat us nonbelievers into submission. And of course Neil
Young will even write a song about the study.
The audioXpress seems to be the first print mag to go gaga over the
"In this extensive study, which can be freely downloaded here, Reiss
painstakingly analyzes data from 18 studies involving 450 participants
listening to samples of music in different formats. In total, the
studies involved more than 12,000 different trials where participants
were asked to discriminate between formats. The conclusions state,
without any doubt, that "listeners can hear a difference between
standard audio and better-than-CD quality, known as high-resolution
audio," ...at least sixty percent of the time."
Referenced with 60% audible distortion.



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arnyk
2016-07-08 22:04:07 UTC
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Post by Julf
The audioXpress seems to be the first print mag to go gaga over the
"In this extensive study, which can be freely downloaded here, Reiss
painstakingly analyzes data from 18 studies involving 450 participants
listening to samples of music in different formats. In total, the
studies involved more than 12,000 different trials where participants
were asked to discriminate between formats. The conclusions state,
without any doubt, that "listeners can hear a difference between
standard audio and better-than-CD quality, known as high-resolution
audio," ...at least sixty percent of the time."
Obviously, we are seeing a quote/paraphrase of the press release that
the author seems to have written for himself, and most specifically
*not* an accurate extract of the content of the peer-reviewed paper.

In reality the peer reviewed paper only claims that less than 5% of the
listener's experiences involved accurate identification.


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Julf
2016-07-09 08:42:45 UTC
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Post by arnyk
Obviously, we are seeing a quote/paraphrase of the press release that
the author seems to have written for himself, and most specifically
*not* an accurate extract of the content of the peer-reviewed paper.
Absolutely. But I am afraid it is an early example of a flood of similar
interpretations... :(



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
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edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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ralphpnj
2016-07-09 10:33:21 UTC
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Post by Julf
Absolutely. But I am afraid it is an early example of a flood of similar
interpretations... :(
Flood?!?!?! More like a tsunami, of biblical proportions.



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Julf
2016-07-09 10:52:12 UTC
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Post by ralphpnj
Flood?!?!?! More like a tsunami, of biblical proportions.
Unfortunately you are probably right. :(



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
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drmatt
2016-06-30 22:47:15 UTC
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..can't see your .sig on the Tapatalk client, so I didn't know that..

But I also don't care why you bought your DAC.. you appear to be a grown
adult and it's therefore none of my business..




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ralphpnj
2016-07-01 17:40:02 UTC
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Okay so how long before references to this study appear in all the
various high end audio publications and web sites?

I'm pretty sure that the article will be used like a giant club in an
attempt to beat us nonbelievers into submission. And of course Neil
Young will even write a song about the study.



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Wombat
2016-07-01 17:59:50 UTC
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The paper summarizes positives from studies at the edge of plausibility.
Just take the Bob S. paper that claims trained listeners can detect
differences. The files used are from the best recordings available, down
and upsampled again with unusal filters and bad dithering. Even then it
only shows a minimum of a positive hit number. For that an almost
anechoic chamber was used. There was no plausible testing done if higher
frequency content simply was audible due to intermodulation. I guess i
forgot even more pitfalls.
You can certainly ignore any claim from your audiophile fellow how close
he feels to Paul only when listening the 24 bit Beatles remaster or
Coltrane in dsd.



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Archimago
2016-07-02 00:57:24 UTC
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Ooohhhh... I thought Neil Young proved this conclusively with musicians
(obviously they have fantastic awesome hearing!) riding shotgun in his
souped up Cadillac years ago!?

Written like a typical academic meta-analysis of course. Like Arny said,
52.3% with 17 studies (excluding Meyer & Moran), that's all they got!
Well, I guess it wasn't as close as the Brexit vote :-).

Noted and commented on in my blog post this week...



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Wombat
2016-07-02 01:37:47 UTC
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Post by Archimago
Ooohhhh... I thought Neil Young proved this conclusively with musicians
(obviously they have fantastic awesome hearing!) riding shotgun in his
souped up Cadillac years ago!?
Written like a typical academic meta-analysis of course. Like Arny said,
52.3% with 17 studies (excluding Meyer & Moran), that's all they got!
Well, I guess it wasn't as close as the Brexit vote :-).
Noted and commented on in my blog post this week...
So much text :)
Funny you choose Clapton as example. I can imagine if the CD was done
with best quality in mind it may be possible to sound even better as the
HiBitrate download because of some watermark used for UMG related labels
and online distribution ;)



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Archimago
2016-07-02 21:48:07 UTC
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Yes. Lots of text :-).

Let's just lay it on the table and get it done with. The use of the
impulse response to justify FUD is one of the greatest 'controversies'
out there.

As if we can actually hear the ringing for one.

As if going through a sharp filter would actually excite tons of ringing
in actual music.

And as if we should go ooohhhh and aaaahhhh over yet another $$$$ DAC
because the designer programmed some mystical algorithm in his fancy
FPGA!

Thanks for the tip on the Clapton. So I guess one could pay 30 bucks to
buy a 24/192 file with watermarking versus 10 bucks for a CD which at
best can be differentiated <53% of the time by researchers using
presumably great gear in a good room, with no watermarking to
potentially mar the sound... Hmm mmmmm...

This is just getting worse.



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ralphpnj
2016-07-03 00:03:20 UTC
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So much text about the fear of ringing :)
Funny you choose Clapton as example. I can imagine if the CD was done
with best quality in mind it may be possible to sound even better as the
HiBitrate download because of some watermark used for UMG related labels
and online distribution ;)
Yes. Lots of text :-).
Let's just lay it on the table and get it done with. The use of the
impulse response to justify FUD is one of the greatest 'controversies'
out there.
As if we can actually hear the ringing for one.
As if going through a sharp filter would actually excite tons of ringing
in actual music.
And as if we should go ooohhhh and aaaahhhh over yet another $$$$ DAC
because the designer programmed some mystical algorithm in his fancy
FPGA!
Thanks for the tip on the Clapton. So I guess one could pay 30 bucks to
buy a 24/192 file with watermarking versus 10 bucks for a CD which at
best can be differentiated <53% of the time by researchers using
presumably great gear in a good room, with no watermarking to
potentially mar the sound... Hmm mmmmm...
This is just getting worse.
Which is why there remains a very thriving underground culture of
downloading - all kinds of downloads - everything from well made high
bit rate mp3s to CD rips to vinyl rips to high resolution audio files.
It's all there if one knows where to look. And please no moralizing.
When was the last time anyone here bought and read an actual newspaper?



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pablolie
2016-07-03 04:21:28 UTC
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Post by Archimago
Yes. Lots of text :-).
Let's just lay it on the table and get it done with. The use of the
impulse response to justify FUD is one of the greatest 'controversies'
out there.
As if we can actually hear the ringing for one.
As if going through a sharp filter would actually excite tons of ringing
in actual music.
And as if we should go ooohhhh and aaaahhhh over yet another $$$$ DAC
because the designer programmed some mystical algorithm in his fancy
FPGA!
Thanks for the tip on the Clapton. So I guess one could pay 30 bucks to
buy a 24/192 file with watermarking versus 10 bucks for a CD which at
best can be differentiated <53% of the time by researchers using
presumably great gear in a good room, with no watermarking to
potentially mar the sound... Hmm mmmmm...
This is just getting worse.
And who exclude those who state they can't hear a difference from the
study...



...pablo
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Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem
DreamCatcher + Velodyne Minivee Sub
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado
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drmatt
2016-07-03 06:08:21 UTC
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Post by pablolie
And who exclude those who state they can't hear a difference from the
study...
Well, given the aims of the study, this is a legit statistical
technique. It might sound like cherry picking but when the point of the
study is to show only that *some* people can tell it's allowable to
exclude the ones who can't. Clearly if the study attempted to show that
*all* people can tell, this would not be legit.




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pablolie
2016-07-03 16:08:27 UTC
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Post by drmatt
Well, given the aims of the study, this is a legit statistical
technique. It might sound like cherry picking but when the point of the
study is to show only that *some* people can tell it's allowable to
exclude the ones who can't. Clearly if the study attempted to show that
*all* people can tell, this would not be legit.
So if 90% of people were to admit they can't hear a difference no matter
how hard they try, the best thing is to listen to the 10% who can, and
if 6 of them get lucky, we've proven it's possible to tell a difference?
:-)



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Wombat
2016-07-03 16:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by pablolie
So if 90% of people were to admit they can't hear a difference no matter
how hard they try, the best thing is to listen to the 10% who can, and
if 6 of them get lucky, we've proven it's possible to tell a difference?
:-)
This is even optimistic. Like mentioned before the metadata comes from
studies that themself are all but free of questions. There are factors
that can lead to differences but not because of superiority of
HiBitrate. That is tried to hide in the papers somehow. I remember one
more that uses a really weird pyramix resampler that even for freeware
these days can be called lousy. One direct and not attemting to cloud
the outcome is a pretty new experiment from Robert Schulein

I hope someone takes the time to sum up the references of the
meta-analysis and the probably faults.



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drmatt
2016-07-03 20:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by pablolie
So if 90% of people were to admit they can't hear a difference no matter
how hard they try, the best thing is to listen to the 10% who can, and
if 6 of them get lucky, we've proven it's possible to tell a difference?
:-)
Well .. yes .. for the parameters of the study. Assuming they get lucky
often enough to beat pure chance. In that case it seems likely that
either they *can* tell the difference in this trial or the trial is
broken. But like all hypotheses, you only need to find -one- person who
can consistently tell the difference and you have disproved the theory
that "no-one can tell the difference".. the debate then moves on to the
technicalia of the test itself ....

The debate will live forever.


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Julf
2016-07-03 21:02:01 UTC
Permalink
But like all hypotheses, you only need to find -one- person who can
consistently tell the difference and you have disproved the theory that
"no-one can tell the difference"..
I guess that depends on your number of trials. If one person can tell it
all the time (not the case here) in all of 10 trials, but 1023 other
people couldn't, it is precisely what you would expect based on
statistics.
debate will live forever.
Indeed - just because it is hard to prove a negative, and many people
don't believer a proof anyway.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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ralphpnj
2016-07-03 21:07:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by drmatt
Well .. yes .. for the parameters of the study. Assuming they get lucky
often enough to beat pure chance. In that case it seems likely that
either they *can* tell the difference in this trial or the trial is
broken. But like all hypotheses, you only need to find -one- person who
can consistently tell the difference and you have disproved the theory
that "no-one can tell the difference".. the debate then moves on to the
technicalia of the test itself ....
The debate will live forever.
Question: can the one person who can tell the difference between the
sound of a CD quality file versus a high resolution file also tell the
difference between the sound of a high resolution file versus a DSD
file?

Which leads to the next question: can that same unique individual also
tell the difference between the sound of a DSD64 file versus a DSD128
file?

And so the debate rages on!



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pablolie
2016-07-04 03:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by drmatt
Well .. yes .. for the parameters of the study. Assuming they get lucky
often enough to beat pure chance. In that case it seems likely that
either they *can* tell the difference in this trial or the trial is
broken. But like all hypotheses, you only need to find -one- person who
can consistently tell the difference and you have disproved the theory
that "no-one can tell the difference".. the debate then moves on to the
technicalia of the test itself ....
The debate will live forever.
I think the standing question is "Do the vast majority of people benefit
from HD Audio?" ( to which I have established my own personal answer,
but to each their own). I am not a believer in absolute statements,
because -as you said- they can be easily proven wrong by a singularity.
Hence, any statement that contains "nobody" or "everybody" or "always"
will be always met by me with a questioning glance...

But the key thing is - I don't think this study set out to find the
singular exception to an absolute statement, the goal was to show wider
validity of the parting premise - in which case the elimination of those
who admit to be unable to tell a difference seems questionable.



...pablo
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Mnyb
2016-07-05 04:49:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by pablolie
I think the standing question is "Do the vast majority of people benefit
from HD Audio?" ( to which I have established my own personal answer,
but to each their own). I am not a believer in absolute statements,
because -as you said- they can be easily proven wrong by a singularity.
Hence, any statement that contains "nobody" or "everybody" or "always"
will be always met by me with a questioning glance...
But the key thing is - I don't think this study set out to find the
singular exception to an absolute statement, the goal was to show wider
validity of the parting premise - in which case the elimination of those
who admit to be unable to tell a difference seems questionable.
I go for practically nobody ;) which is about the same .. Couple that
with the typical audiophile demographic and the typical old analogue
recordings they listen to and I would not be surprised that if such a
singular person ever would be found she would not be an audiophile .

But the interesting part is why this never ending quest ? there are some
ingrained beliefs that digital can't really be any good and it goes on
and on .

And on the other hand there is hardly no such quest for better records ?
Well there is a handful of audiophile labels , but they hardly record
anything anyone would listen to anyway ?

Priority must be to make better sounding records as >99% of what's ever
recorded would not fit any hirez criteria or even challenge good old
16/44.1 CD .

But this passive aproach does not suit OCD type audiophiles with thier
strong belief systems . Hope that the next records you buy sounds better
and that some artist of any pedigree happened to record a good sounding
record ? Instead they buy cable lifters and special power cords....



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Mnyb
2016-07-05 04:59:02 UTC
Permalink
I migth be wrong about classical records they migth already do records
as good as we ever need in many cases .
But they have other challenges to cope with like a very small consumer
base .
And a very long recorded history of excellent performances that sounds
good enough for most .
Which make it hard , as you must not only record sith higher quality (
easy ) but also make the best ever musical interpretation of the work ?



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drmatt
2016-07-05 07:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mnyb
And on the other hand there is hardly no such quest for better records ?
Well there is a handful of audiophile labels , but they hardly record
anything anyone would listen to anyway ?
Priority must be to make better sounding records as >99% of what's ever
recorded would not fit any hirez criteria or even challenge good old
16/44.1 CD
Agree. At the very least we need a THX-like mastering standard that
removes the desire to saturate every bit with compression. If it can be
extended all the way back to studio recording principles then even
better.

No one would argue against this. (Except studios who need to spend
money.)




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Mnyb
2016-07-05 09:13:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by drmatt
Agree. At the very least we need a THX-like mastering standard that
removes the desire to saturate every recording at -0.02db.. If it can be
extended all the way back to studio recording principles then even
better.
No one would argue against this. (Except studios who need to spend
money.)
Justan standard listening level like THX would be a wonder



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Wombat
2016-07-05 14:42:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mnyb
I go for practically nobody ;) which is about the same .. Couple that
with the typical audiophile demographic and the typical old analogue
recordings they listen to and I would not be surprised that if such a
singular person ever would be found she would not be an audiophile .
+1
Reading on other forums these people hear fempto jitter, noise at -160dB
and dsd as better. Ask the same person to listen for real problems in
samples that are way more mangled and you get mostly fluff, to many
knobs or stress...



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ralphpnj
2016-07-05 14:57:30 UTC
Permalink
I don't understand the fascination with THX. THX is simply a label that
is available for purchase along with a set of loosely defined
"standards". Pay the money (aka licensing fee) and the THX label is
yours whether or not the "standards" have been met.

https://www.google.com/#newwindow=1&safe=off&q=how+much+does+thx+certification+cost



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drmatt
2016-07-05 23:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
I don't understand the fascination with THX. THX is simply a label that
is available for purchase along with a set of loosely defined
"standards". Pay the money (aka licensing fee) and the THX label is
yours whether or not the "standards" have been met.
Yeah, I realise that there's always a cynical view.. :) but at least
it's -something- that provides a baseline of supposed mastering
standard. How well enforced it is is another matter..


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ralphpnj
2016-07-05 23:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by drmatt
Yeah, I realise that there's always a cynical view.. :) but at least
it's -something- that provides a baseline of supposed mastering
standard. How well enforced it is is another matter..
Whenever money is involved, as is the case with THX certification,
cynicism is never a bad point of view.



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Mnyb
2016-07-06 05:32:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by drmatt
Yeah, I realise that there's always a cynical view.. :) but at least
it's -something- that provides a baseline of supposed mastering
standard. How well enforced it is is another matter..
It actually works to a degree , but not many goes the whole mile and get
"everything thx" including speakers to their ultra standard so it kinds
of fall apart. The ultra standard is basically the original thx but not
watered down to just a badge.

In cinemas it's actually works , basically the demands for matched
levels certain acoustics and speaker specs ( polar pattern and
directivity ) real do make the local cinema sound very similar to the
mixing suit so the producers of the film will know what the audience
will hear .

But it does some good at home too .

The part I would like most for hifi would be records mixed for a defined
listening level .

Anyone familiar with the loudness curves aka fletcher Munson curves .
How they are is sensitive to different frequencies at different levels
it makes huge differences in timbre and audibility .

The THX part where they spec speaker directivity patterns can be a
harder pill to swallow for stereo use it works well for multichannel of
all times on almost any movie .
But music has been done on some much different equipment over the years
so it's maybe impractical and would not be great for all music .
But mixing for a certain type of speakers knowing that the consumers
sounded similar would work .

Cinema sounds uses these to great effect , sounds just at the limit of
audibility or close to to loud and in between subtly when you want it or
force when you want that . A sad side note there are wonderful sound
mixes and bad ( loud all the time ) in cinema to .
But movies are allowed to use space and dynamics in the sound ,
sometimes when watching a DVD with old compressed Dolby AC3 I wonder why
does it sound so good ? Then I remeber what music producers do to thier
stuff...


For home use maybe mix to a more sane level than cinema ;)



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cliveb
2016-07-06 06:30:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mnyb
The part I would like most for hifi would be records mixed for a defined
listening level
I don't see how that can work. Different people like to listen to their
music at very different levels.
One man's "too quiet" is another lady's "TURN IT DOWN!!" (well, in my
house, anyway :-)



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drmatt
2016-07-06 08:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by cliveb
I don't see how that can work. Different people like to listen to their
music at very different levels.
One man's "too quiet" is another lady's "TURN IT DOWN!!" (well, in my
house, anyway :-)
This is of course true but if the mix was done to cater for a particular
volume level, always, then playback systems could retune it for lower
levels. Remember the loudness button? Graduated version of that in a
DSP?

In movie playback most devices have a setting for playback at low volume
with reduced dynamic range too.




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arnyk
2016-07-06 09:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by drmatt
This is of course true but if the mix was done to cater for a particular
volume level, always, then playback systems could retune it for lower
levels. Remember the loudness button? Graduated version of that in a
DSP?
In movie playback most devices have a setting for playback at low volume
with reduced dynamic range too.
Audyssey Dynmic Eq handles this situation.

http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/dynamic-eq


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cliveb
2016-07-06 12:58:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by drmatt
This is of course true but if the mix was done to cater for a particular
volume level, always, then playback systems could retune it for lower
levels. Remember the loudness button? Graduated version of that in a
DSP?
The first stereo amp I ever bought back in the early 1970s had that. It
was an Alba (the model number was something like "UA700") and it had two
volume controls. You set one as a kind of preset maximum volume, and
then the other was used in day-to-day listening; as you turned it down
from max, it gradually boosted the bass and treble, so it was in effect
a "variable loudness button".



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drmatt
2016-07-06 14:18:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by cliveb
The first stereo amp I ever bought back in the early 1970s had that. It
was an Alba (the model number was something like "UA700") ....
.... so it was in effect a "variable loudness button".
Cunning.. From an old British name in TV, back when they were a real
name not just a badge.




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arnyk
2016-07-06 14:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by cliveb
The first stereo amp I ever bought back in the early 1970s had that. It
was an Alba (the model number was something like "UA700") and it had two
volume controls. You set one as a kind of preset maximum volume, and
then the other was used in day-to-day listening; as you turned it down
from max, it gradually boosted the bass and treble, so it was in effect
a "variable loudness button".
Not the only product with that feature. I saw several, but the one that
comes to mind most exactly was from an American (Chicago) company named
Sherwood, whose good name is now in the hands of some asians.


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Rainer M Krug
2016-07-06 17:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
Post by cliveb
The first stereo amp I ever bought back in the early 1970s had that. It
was an Alba (the model number was something like "UA700") and it had two
volume controls. You set one as a kind of preset maximum volume, and
then the other was used in day-to-day listening; as you turned it down
from max, it gradually boosted the bass and treble, so it was in effect
a "variable loudness button".
Not the only product with that feature. I saw several, but the one that
comes to mind most exactly was from an American (Chicago) company named
Sherwood, whose good name is now in the hands of some asians.
There are a lot out there - I actually have two. One is the Yamaha
A-720 ( http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/a-720.shtml ),
the other one also a Yamaha AX-500
( http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/ax-500.shtml ).

Rainer
Post by arnyk
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pablolie
2016-07-07 01:09:11 UTC
Permalink
My first (and only) Luxman and even the Accuphase E-306v (which I still
own but currently don't use) had that "loudness" button. And I can't
claim I never used it. :-)



...pablo
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Mnyb
2016-07-07 05:02:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
Not the only product with that feature. I saw several, but the one that
comes to mind most exactly was from an American (Chicago) company named
Sherwood, whose good name is now in the hands of some asians.
The general problem with this feature was setting it up, which done
properly requires a complex wave generator and a SPL meter. In the 1970s
those did not exactly grow on trees, but today they do.
Yes that was the problem , fixed loudness button was to coarse and the
variable system requires level matching to your room and listening
position .

Which made the loudness function very misunderstood , most normal folks
used it as an instant disco button :) all the time .

And if the spectral timbre of the recording is not absolutely neutral it
migth not yield the desired pshoycho acoustic effect anyway ?
So it still sounds wrong in most practical uses cases .

So if the compensation for a lower listening level should be done at
home , I think so and also dynamic compression should be done at home if
needed .

The music needs to be produced at a reference level with correct timbre
, so it can be loudnes adjusted from there at home and still sound ok
and also have very wide dynamic range ( what that is I don't know ,but
you can probably agree on some maximum level that still usable in a home
setting ) and that dynamic range could then also be adapted in some
smart way to the environment you got .



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Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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toby10
2016-07-06 08:53:00 UTC
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......... and make sure you use only THX "certified" cables with your
THX certified equipment, otherwise it's all for naught. ;)


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Julf
2016-07-06 09:14:41 UTC
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Post by toby10
......... and make sure you use only THX "certified" cables with your
THX certified equipment, otherwise it's all for naught. ;)
The THX cable "certifications" are at least based on objective,
measurable criteria, designed to ensure the cables don't affect audio
quality (so the more exotic
"high-end" cables probably wouldn't pass)...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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cliveb
2016-07-05 15:58:13 UTC
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But like all hypotheses, you only need to find -one- person who can
consistently tell the difference and you have disproved the theory that
"no-one can tell the difference"...
And the crucial word here is *consistently*. If you run a trial with 20
people, it is statisically very likely that one of them will "pass the
test". What then needs to be done is to repeat the test and have *the
same person* pass the test again. If they don't, it's just a standard
case of regression to the mean.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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drmatt
2016-07-05 23:17:10 UTC
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Post by cliveb
And the crucial word here is *consistently*. If you run a trial with 20
people, it is statisically very likely that one of them will "pass the
test". What then needs to be done is to repeat the test and have *the
same person* pass the test again. If they don't, it's just a standard
case of regression to the mean.
Indeed though it totally depends on the test. If the test is designed
such that the expectation is that no-one will pass it, the norm is zero
and the standard deviation is very very narrow. If any person comes even
close to consistently "passing" then the result is statistically
significant. I haven't read the detailed data behind this paper, just
making observations about statistics here.


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