[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MEASUREMENTS: PonoPlayer!

[Archimago]

Boys. Just got done with the PonoPlayer write-up...

Having just completed the digital filters test, I think what Ayre is
doing with the filters is pretty funky :-).

Anyhow, some measurements and opinions...

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/08/measurements-ponoplayer-another-mans.html



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[ralphpnj]

Thanks Archimago!

What I liked most about your write up was that you very clearly
differentiated between the hardware and all the surrounding hype/BS. In
essence: as a piece hardware the Pono Player delivers as promised,
however when the hype/BS about hi-rez audio is removed the question that
remains seems to be - "what's the point of a portable hi-rez audio
player?"



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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
Thanks Archimago!
What I liked most about your write up was that you very clearly
differentiated between the hardware and all the surrounding hype/BS. In
essence: as a piece hardware the Pono Player delivers as promised,
however when the hype/BS about hi-rez audio is removed the question that
remains seems to be - "what's the point of a portable hi-rez audio
player?"

You're welcome! It was a fun night of measuring and thinking about what
I wanted to say about this piece of equipment after playing with it for
the last couple months off and on.

I think the Pono saga has been a fascinating one to watch and comment on
over the last few years - essentially last 3 years. A fascinating
exploration of technological evangelism by a guy (NY) who I believe
truly believes what he says (eg. hi-res sounds like "God", MP3's having
literally 8% or whatever of "the sound", analogue being unquestionably
the hi-res standard, and countless others) despite the lack of even face
validity for anyone who spends time with the technology or actually
honestly do some testing and experimentation for themselves. Then to see
the millions of $$$ of Kickstarter support for these claims, the merger
of fact (yes, hi-res music can be more objectively "accurate") and
fantasy ("revolutionary" sound). Ultimately the comingling of the
audiophile "cult of personalities" - Neil Young's legendary status as a
musician mixed with someone who supposedly knows how the technology
works...

The polarity between what technology folks see and how it's presented in
the audiophile magazines is a fascinating projection of these
intertwined threads of faith and truth. I think someone should write a
book on this one day :-).



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[arnyk]

Post by Archimago
You're welcome! It was a fun night of measuring and thinking about what
I wanted to say about this piece of equipment after playing with it for
the last couple months off and on.
I think the Pono saga has been a fascinating one to watch and comment on
over the last few years - essentially last 3 years. A fascinating
exploration of technological evangelism by a guy (NY) who I believe
truly believes what he says (eg. hi-res sounds like "God", MP3's having
literally 8% or whatever of "the sound", analogue being unquestionably
the hi-res standard, and countless others) despite the lack of even face
validity for anyone who spends time with the technology or actually
honestly do some testing and experimentation for themselves. Then to see
the millions of $$$ of Kickstarter support for these claims, the merger
of fact (yes, hi-res music can be more objectively "accurate") and
fantasy ("revolutionary" sound). Ultimately the commingling of the
audiophile "cult of personalities" - Neil Young's legendary status as a
musician mixed with someone who supposedly knows how the technology
works...
To a smaller extent we can say this about Ayre as well - I would bet if
Meridian stayed the hardware designer Bob Stuart would be all over it
and we'd be looking at the Meridian 'apodizing' minimum phase filter - I
guess he had other fish to fry in the form of MQA.

one question is whether or not the rather obvious treble roll-off is
audible:

18530

The Pono (white line) is about 0.5 dB down @10 KHz and about 5 dB down
at @20 KHz. Severe enough to perhaps even be audible.

What is unknown from these measurements is the corresponding phase
response and its corresponding effects on transient response.


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[Wombat]

one question is whether or not the pono's rather obvious treble roll-off
What is unknown from these measurements is the corresponding phase
response and its corresponding effects on transient response.

They advertise a minimum phase filter. So they obviously use a slow
roll-off together with minimum phase. That should calm even the most
frightened with the fear of ringing.
Btw. if you already use some weird, early rolling off filter for
resampling high samplerate music to 44.1 the chance rises to hear
differences at 44.1 with such implementations.



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[arnyk]

So they obviously use a slow roll-off together with minimum phase.

In terms of modern trends and fashions, I agree that minimum phase and
slow roll offs come together,

but if I remember what I learned in filter design class, not so much.

For example any Butterworth filter is minimum phase, and all it takes is
a fairly high order of Butterworth filter and a 20 KHz (-3) filter to
provide a 100 dB stop band at the 44.1 KHz Nyquist frequency.

There is a matter of practiality, except that minimum phase digital
filters are completely possible.


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[Archimago]

Post by arnyk
What is unknown from these measurements is the corresponding phase
response and its corresponding effects on transient response.

Yes, good point Arny. I'll see if I can get the phase graphs up...



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[Mnyb]

one question is whether or not the pono's rather obvious treble roll-off
18530
What is unknown from these measurements is the corresponding phase
response and its corresponding effects on transient response.

Yes imho there is a risk that this is audible the only way to get proper
hf response with this player is to use hirez material or maybe upsample
your cd stuff :) what is the hf drop at 13khz or 15khz ? That 20k is
gone down -5dB can bother young audiophiles but thats does not seem to
be the core demographic for the product.

If a portable hirez player is a bit anochronistic would it compete as
headphone amp ? Or is the battery power such a compromise such that it
easilly beaten by a more dedicated headphone dac/amp .

Or maybe this is not anachronistic to some users ? Anyone prefering
keeping a separate portable music player these days



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[Archimago]

Post by Mnyb
Yes imho there is a risk that this is audible the only way to get proper
hf response with this player is to use hirez material or maybe upsample
your cd stuff :) what is the hf drop at 13khz or 15khz ? That 20k is
gone down -5dB can bother young audiophiles but thats does not seem to
be the core demographic for the product.
If a portable hirez player is a bit anochronistic would it compete as
headphone amp ? Or is the battery power such a compromise such that it
easilly beaten by a more dedicated headphone dac/amp .
Or maybe this is not anachronistic to some users ? Anyone prefering
keeping a separate portable music player these days

Anachronistic devices are everywhere in the audiophile world of
course... Tubes (or tubes in digital players), 'modern' turntables,
'new' LP media, and a reintroduction to DAP's at a time when smartphones
are ubiquitous.

I think the term "parachronistic" may be more in tune with the idea in
that there's nothing wrong with the device in this time period and isn't
necessarily surprising, but it's not "normally" expected given the
progression of technology.

Yeah... Just upsample your 44kHz music with a typical filter to 96kHz
for this device and I think many folks would have difficulty hearing any
difference from the naive 96kHz 'hi-res'.

For inefficient headphones, I believe an amp remains essential! Like I
noted in my post, at 100%, it was merely adequate for something like my
AKG Q701. A proper headphone amp would make a significant difference...



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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Anachronistic devices are everywhere in the audiophile world of
course... Tubes (or tubes in digital players), 'modern' turntables,
'new' LP media, and a reintroduction to DAP's at a time when smartphones
are ubiquitous.
I think the term "parachronistic" may be more in tune with the idea in
that there's nothing wrong with the device in this time period and isn't
necessarily surprising, but it's not "normally" expected given the
progression of technology.
Yeah... Just upsample your 44kHz music with a typical filter to 96kHz
for this device and I think many folks would have difficulty hearing any
difference from the naive 96kHz 'hi-res'.
For inefficient headphones, I believe an amp remains essential! Like I
noted in my post, at 100%, it was merely adequate for something like my
AKG Q701. A proper headphone amp would make a significant difference...

The upsampling is approach would be better if the Pono was able to
upsample on the fly since that would save a lot of storage space being
able to use 44.1kHz flac files versus 96kHz flac files.

As for the headphones, there are quite a few quality headphones
available that are specifically made to work with smartphones and other
DAPs. For example the Beyerdynamic Tp5
(http://www.amazon.com/Beyerdynamic-T5p-Audiophile-Portable-Headphone/dp/B004C04P46).
Or one could just spend a lot less money on a portable headphone amp :)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
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[Mnyb]

Parachronistic :) thats it , i know a some folks that ridee motorcycles
. In the 50 and 60 and possible early 70 these where designed as actual
vehicles nowadays it's all about brand recognition and image and look
and feel for many of them . Not a practical thing to commute with .



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Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
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[Archimago]

Just thought this spectral frequency plot looked interesting for the
PonoPlayer!

Lots of high-frequency gets through of course but not the usual Nyquist
ringing. Linear with no phase shift in the higher frequencies. An
interesting low frequency "afterimage" in the plot. (Not sure how else
to call this... Any thoughts?)

18569


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[Mnyb]

Post by Archimago
Just thought this spectral frequency plot looked interesting for the
PonoPlayer!
Lots of high-frequency gets through of course but not the usual Nyquist
ringing. Linear with no phase shift in the higher frequencies. An
interesting low frequency "afterimage" in the plot. (Not sure how else
to call this... Any thoughts?)
18569

can it be god old aliasing ?



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[utgg]

Post by Archimago
Just thought this spectral frequency plot looked interesting for the
PonoPlayer!
Lots of high-frequency gets through of course but not the usual Nyquist
ringing. Linear with no phase shift in the higher frequencies. An
interesting low frequency "afterimage" in the plot. (Not sure how else
to call this... Any thoughts?)
18569

Maybe just showing the DC decay resulting from AC/capacitively coupled
output. I.e. the impulse injects a very small amount of DC which decays
over a few ms - perhaps no overshoot/ringing involved in that at all. I
assume the timescale ticks are 1ms?


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[Archimago]

Post by utgg
Maybe just showing the DC decay resulting from AC/capacitively coupled
output. I.e. the impulse injects a very small amount of DC which decays
over a few ms - perhaps no further overshoot/ringing involved after the
initial 'rebound'. Should be visible with a lot more gain on the signal
trace. I assume the timescale ticks are 1ms?

Excellent work utgg! Indeed it looks like as you said, a D/C offset
which decays over at least 40ms. Here's a zoomed in look at the tracing
of the impuse:

18581

Result of those big 1000uF capacitors seen in the 'hardware teardown'
(http://mikebeauchamp.com/2014/12/pono-player-teardown/)?


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[Wombat]

Post by Archimago
Excellent work utgg! Indeed it looks like as you said, a D/C offset
which decays over at least 40ms. Here's a zoomed in look at the tracing
of the impuse
Result of those big 1000uF capacitors seen in the 'hardware teardown'
(http://mikebeauchamp.com/2014/12/pono-player-teardown/)?

Again, i think it is simply the absense of any capacitor at the output.
The 1000yF are for the electronics, i doubt they are in the signal
path.
I didn't look around much but this review lists no capacitor in the
signal path as feature.
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/pono-player-and-promises-fulfilled#TqIoqM2k5WM0tb5W.97



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[Archimago]

Post by Wombat
Again, i think it is simply the absense of any capacitor at the output.
The 1000yF are for the electronics, i doubt they are in the signal
path.
I didn't look around much but this review lists no capacitor in the
signal path as feature.
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/pono-player-and-promises-fulfilled#TqIoqM2k5WM0tb5W.97

Ahh, I see... Good sleuthing!

Post by Wombat
To sum up, Hansen claims the sonic performance of the Pono Player is due
Gentle digital filters with no pre-ringing.
Discrete components.
Zero negative feedback.
No capacitors in the audio path.
Audio circuitry with dedicated +/- supply regulators.
Balanced headphone drive.

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[HeadBanger]

This made me chuckle :)

HB



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[arnyk]

Post by Archimago
Just thought this spectral frequency plot looked interesting for the
PonoPlayer!
Lots of high-frequency gets through of course but not the usual Nyquist
ringing. Linear with no phase shift in the higher frequencies. An
interesting low frequency "afterimage" in the plot. (Not sure how else
to call this... Any thoughts?)
18569

Reading between the lines, the Pono DAC may have an Apodizing
reconstruction filter.

An Apodizing filter is based on the DAC's filter which is usually linear
phase, or that has the same phase/amplitude response as a simple time
delay.

Based on sighted evaluations and questionable other listening tests, a
sonic phobia about linear phase filters has developed in some people's
minds. The focus of the phobia is ringing that comes before the impulse
with a linear phase filter.

The Apodizing filter adds additional phase shift to transform the filter
response so that its phase response is more like that of a Minimum Phase
filter which has all of its ringing following the impulse.

Since actual evidence that linear phase filters > 20 KHz have any
audible effects, the likelihood that an Apodizing Filter having any
audible benefits is slim and none.

One key concept that must be true, that many are in denial about, is
that in order to have improved sound, there has to a sonic difference.

Hence, testing for audible differences should precede testing for
preferences.

The ringing of reconstruction filters is often best measured with
conventional time versus amplitude measurements.

Impulse response of linear phase brick wall low pass filter:

18572

Impulse response of minimum phase brick wall low pass filter:

18573

It is well known that when the filter has a corner frequency that is
well within in the audible range, difference between pre-ringing and
post-ringing can be audible. With digital audio reconstruction or brick
wall filters the challenge to audibility is the fact that ringing takes
place above the normal range of hearing.


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[Mnyb]

Arny yes it has apodizing its developed by ayre thtas their thing for
the moment.
Also notice archimogos measurment that shows a treble rolloff within the
audible range . So ofcourse it may sound "different" to some users :)
different=better for some audiophiles . Some recordings may benefit ,but
once we had tone controls for this purpose before the fad of omitting
those on audio products ? ( i have quite usefull tone controls in my
hifi they are needed )



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Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[arnyk]

Post by Mnyb
Arny yes it has apodizing its developed by ayre thtas their thing for
the moment.
Also notice archimogos measurment that shows a treble rolloff within the
audible range . So ofcourse it may sound "different" to some users :)
different=better for some audiophiles . Some recordings may benefit ,but
once we had tone controls for this purpose before the fad of omitting
those on audio products ? ( i have quite usefull tone controls in my
hifi they are needed )

Please note this post:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104094-MEASUREMENTS-PonoPlayer!&p=826328&viewfull=1#post826328


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[Wombat]

I gues if it was the typical Meridian filter attempt we had no alias.
Would be interesting to show the sweep picture used on the famous src
page.
For the low frequency in the pic i second it may be DC like utgg
suggest. Is the output advertised capacitorless?



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[Wirrunna]

Post by ralphpnj
Thanks Archimago!
What I liked most about your write up was that you very clearly
differentiated between the hardware and all the surrounding hype/BS. In
essence: as a piece hardware the Pono Player delivers as promised,
however when the hype/BS about hi-rez audio is removed the question that
remains seems to be - "what's the point of a portable hi-rez audio
player?"

Agree entirely.

I also enjoyed the blog on room acoustics -
http://archimago.blogspot.com.au/2015/08/measurements-room-acoustic-absorption.html.
Good references there including one in the replies about "Calibrated
Acoustic String (TM)" which I thought was a tongue in cheek comment
until I went to the referenced web site (
http://www.mcsquared.com/string.htm ) that has some good reading and
explanations.



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