Genius loves company

[heisenberg]

I've downloaded Ray Charles's album "Genius Loves Company" in hi rez
hoping to enjoy the music as well as the much touted high quality
'audiophile-grade' recording. Well, the music was a-okay (although I
prefer Ray's older material), but the sound quality left me cold. I must
say I much prefer the sound quality of Ray's old recordings from the
'50s and the '60s. Somehow the sound is livelier on those old tracks.
The newly minted tracks (from 2003) are somehow dead sounding (to me).

Anyone else had similar experience? I'm wondering why would a modern
recording lose over the old school recordings that were made over fifty
years ago using primitive recording equipment?


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[JJZolx]

I question whether the sound quality is worse. But there's no question
that the older performances are superior and more lively.


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[heisenberg]

Post by JJZolx
I question whether the sound quality is worse. But there's no question
that the older performances are superior and more lively.

I found the sound on this hi rez album to be somewhat dull and
non-engaging. The late '50s/early '60s recordings have brisker, livelier
sound, regardless of the quality of performance.


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[JJZolx]

"Brisker" sound doesn't register. What's that mean??

Livelier might mean better transients, but I still think you're
describing (or influenced by) the performance rather than the recording.


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[heisenberg]

Post by JJZolx
"Brisker" sound doesn't register. What's that mean??
Livelier might mean better transients, but I still think you're
describing (or influenced by) the performance rather than the
recording.
One thing I've always disliked about many of the old Ray Charles
recordings is that they were overproduced, with far too many strings and
other crap tossed into the mix. I wish more of them had been trio or
quartet performances, with maybe a backup singer or two.

By 'brisker' I mean the vocals and the instruments tend to leap out of
speakers. The hi rez newfangled recording keeps the vocals and the
instruments politely contained inside the speakers. The presentation
appears less substantial, less vivacious,, more polished and polite,
sort of like observing the museum of wax figures. This, of course,
according to my ears. Your ears may vary.

I actually like the strings and the mammoth choirs on some of the old
recordings. The voices on some of those giant choirs are eerily present,
you can almost pick each singer apart from the crowd.


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[Mnyb]

There are also artistic choices done by the mixing engineer and
producer.

A modern recording may be beyond reproach technically , but the actual
sounds put on to it may sound as you discribe .
Some one else on this forum made the remark that some 50's microphones
had a bit of a hot shouty sound of thier own :) etc.

The old record may have noise distortion and limited frequency response
, you may not hear what they actually produced , but enough of it is
there for us to enjoy . The made production decision that where more to
your liking .

This is my pow that the media is almost unimportant , the actual playing
,recording ,producing makes the record.
Not if it happens to be a cd , lp , cassette , or hirez file .
Audiophiles often obsess over the carrier format, hence why HD tracks
seem to able to (re)sell any thing ?

I should actually explore more of this music , it's actually missing in
my collection :)
That's nice with this forum some one always talk about interesting music
even in treads not directly about it .


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[darrenyeats]

Post by Mnyb
This is my pow that the media is almost unimportant , the actual playing
,recording ,producing makes the record.
Not if it happens to be a cd , lp , cassette , or hirez file .
Audiophiles often obsess over the carrier format, hence why HD tracks
seem to able to (re)sell any thing ?
.

I've had some contact lately with people in the business and often the
mastering for vinyl and digital is done by different people. The people
doing the digital mastering are very conscious of the sound for airplay.
This simple fact is probably doing the most damage. It isn't any wonder
that the vinyl ends up with wider DR and a better sound, in some cases.
In a sense digital is the victim of its own success (all the radio
stations use it).

All that we can do is raise the issue of DR at every opportunity and
perhaps the truth of the damage being done will permeate the general
public. It would be nice if the labels produced two digital masters but
it's coming up with an economic reason for that ... I suppose this is
where SACD was supposed to come in but your average pop album isn't
concerned with that! This is the music "business".
Darren


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[Mnyb]

Post by darrenyeats
I've had some contact lately with people in the business and often the
mastering for vinyl and digital is done by different people. The people
doing the digital mastering are very conscious of the sound for airplay.
This simple fact is probably doing the most damage. It isn't any wonder
that the vinyl ends up with wider DR and a better sound, in some cases.
In a sense digital is the victim of its own success (radio stations use
digital as a default ... vinyl is played so rarely the DJ mentions it
when it is played!)
All that we can do is raise the issue of DR at every opportunity and
perhaps the truth of the damage being done will permeate the general
public. It would be nice if the labels produced two digital masters but
it's coming up with an economic reason for that ... I suppose this is
where SACD was supposed to come in but your average pop album isn't
concerned with that! This is the music "business", sadly.
Darren

Yea sadly this is true for the most popular genres . And they are
obviously incompetent as radio station has for ages done their own
multiband compression to equalise all levels .
but I suppose that's its even worse besides the compression they tend to
produce things with a very ear splitting penetrating sound on for
example vocals to much in the upper midrnGe low treble " presence band "
there is no soft sounds anymore .:/


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[heisenberg]

Post by darrenyeats
I've had some contact lately with people in the business and often the
mastering for vinyl and digital is done by different people. The people
doing the digital mastering are very conscious of the sound for airplay.
This simple fact is probably doing the most damage. It isn't any wonder
that the vinyl ends up with wider DR and a better sound, in some cases.
In a sense digital is the victim of its own success (radio stations use
digital as a default ... vinyl is played so rarely the DJ mentions it
when it is played!)
All that we can do is raise the issue of DR at every opportunity and
perhaps the truth of the damage being done will permeate the general
public. It would be nice if the labels produced two digital masters but
it's coming up with an economic reason for that ... I suppose this is
where SACD was supposed to come in but your average pop album isn't
concerned with that! This is the music "business", sadly.
Darren

Is it possible to then convert the LP to digital without losing the
clarity of the signal? If yes, the above would actually be good news.
Instead of buying the crapy digital master, we could buy the LP and
convert it at home, no?

Or am I daydreaming here?


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[Mnyb]

Post by heisenberg
Is it possible to then convert the LP to digital without losing the
clarity of the signal? If yes, the above would actually be good news.
Instead of buying the crapy digital master, we could buy the LP and
convert it at home, no?
Or am I daydreaming here?

Absolutely , there are a bunch of treads suggesting ways of doing it ,
but it is labour intensive .
Just record the output of your dawored vinyl system , the influence of
acoustical feedback will usually be removed , which make it possible for
the vinyl rip to actually sound better than playing the lp itself .


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[gatzou]

Interesting thread...

I am a big fan of Ray Charles (I know very well his records) and I am
quite an old school ears guy (preferring old uncompressed (dynamically)
standards to modern production).
But I find this "Genius love company" quite well produced for a modern
prod, regardless of artistic quality.
Beside compression, the sound may be much cleaner and free of analog
saturation / color compared to former Ray records.
Ray Charles was a big fan of analog production chain, for it's grainy
sound. All production under his watch was this way. Maybe this is what
you are missing ?


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[heisenberg]

Post by gatzou
Interesting thread...
I am a big fan of Ray Charles (I know very well his records) and I am
quite an old school ears guy (preferring old uncompressed (dynamically)
standards to modern production).
But I find this "Genius love company" quite well produced for a modern
prod, regardless of artistic quality : It sound quite good to me.
Beside compression, the sound may be much cleaner and free of analog
saturation / color compared to former Ray records.
Ray Charles was a big fan of analog production chain, for it's grainy
sound. All production under his watch was this way. Maybe this is what
you are missing ?

Yeah, maybe that's the answer. With the old school sound, I seem to get
more three-dimensionality. It could very well be due to some
saturation/distortion and the graininess of the analog tape. But the
individual instruments/voices tend to leap out of the speakers, which I
find delightful.

In comparison, a lot of modern day production sounds flat -- like
looking at a brick wall. Yes, all the details and all the resolution is
there, plain as a day. But it doesn't leap toward the listener, it's
just staying politely where it was originally placed by the sound
engineers/producers. Boring...


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[heisenberg]

Post by Mnyb
There are also artistic choices done by the mixing engineer and
producer.
A modern recording may be beyond reproach technically , but the actual
sounds put on to it may sound as you discribe .
Some one else on this forum made the remark that some 50's microphones
had a bit of a hot shouty sound of thier own :) etc.
The old record may have noise distortion and limited frequency response
, you may not hear what they actually produced , but enough of it is
there for us to enjoy . The made production decision that where more to
your liking .
This is my pow that the media is almost unimportant , the actual playing
,recording ,producing makes the record.
Not if it happens to be a cd , lp , cassette , or hirez file .
Audiophiles often obsess over the carrier format, hence why HD tracks
seem to able to (re)sell any thing ?
I should actually explore more of this music , it's actually missing in
my collection :)
That's nice with this forum some one always talk about interesting music
even in treads not directly about it .

It could also be that my ears are more used to the old school sound?
Perhaps the new 'brickwalled' sound is an acquired taste?

All I know is that I tend to cringe when I hear many of the recently
produced tracks. Going back to the old CDs etc., I breathe a sigh of
relief. Suddenly everything begins to sound like music again:) If I then
switch over to the newly produced music, I feel like I've been shoved
into a crappy night club:(


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[Stratmangler]

I'm wondering why would a modern recording lose over the old school
recordings that were made over fifty years ago using primitive recording
equipment?

I've had a quick listen to the album on Spotify, and the recording is
fine.
The performances on the other hand leave a lot to be desired.
The actual playing of instruments is beyond reproach, it's just that
nobody seems to be injecting much of themselves at all.


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[mlsstl]

Post by Stratmangler
I've had a quick listen to the album on Spotify, and the recording is
fine.
The performances on the other hand leave a lot to be desired.
The actual playing of instruments is beyond reproach, it's just that
nobody seems to be injecting much of themselves at all.

+1.

This is just another typical record company effort to cash in on an
aging star's popularity by pairing him other popular artists to rehash
old material. Some people love this stuff, but for me it is almost
always lifeless and stale. Had the same response to the Sinatra Duets
albums.


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