24/192 vs. 24/96 files on Transporter.

[bzlrbi]

Has anyone done an A/B comparison on downsampled 24/192 files vs.
"original" 24/96 files? I'm wondering if it's worth the few extra bucks
to buy stuff in 24/192 for the future, i.e. after my Transporter goes to
the Great Beyond. Any opinions?

Thanks.


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[Julf]

Are you worried that the downsampling would be audible? Have you managed
to successfully ABX 96 vs. 192 on *any* player?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[bzlrbi]

Post by Julf
Are you worried that the downsampling would be audible? Have you managed
to successfully ABX 96 vs. 192 on *any* player?

I assume it would be audible on the Transporter. The question I have is
if the downloaded 24/192 would sound the same as the 24/96 version. I
don't have any DAC capable of handling 24/192 so, no, I can't do a
comparision.


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[garym]

Post by bzlrbi
I assume it would be audible on the Transporter.

I disagree. Highly unlikely unless some really bad downsampling tool was
used. I don't often purchase > 16/44.1, but when only option is hires
download, I personally only pay for 24/96. The mastering of the 24/192
and 24/96 is the same and the likelihood of any audible difference is
basically zero.

edit: I have ABX'd 24/192 compared to 24/96 downsampled files (from
24/192 source), and found no difference I could distinguish. Not through
transporter, as it can't do 24/192. But through Touch with EDO, which
*can* do 24/192.



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Streaming - Spotify
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[bzlrbi]

Post by garym
I disagree. Highly unlikely unless some really bad downsampling tool was
used. I don't often purchase > 16/44.1, but when only option is hires
download, I personally only pay for 24/96. The mastering of the 24/192
and 24/96 is the same and the likelihood of any audible difference is
basically zero.
edit: I have ABX'd 24/192 compared to 24/96 downsampled files (from
24/192 source), and found no difference I could distinguish. Not through
transporter, as it can't do 24/192. But through Touch with EDO, which
*can* do 24/192.

Gary, that's precisely what I'm hoping for. I meant that the 24/192
files would be audible, not that the differences would be audible. If
that's the case, I'll probably spring for the 24/192s, under the
assumption that one of these days I'll have another more "modern" DAC.
Thanks.


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[Julf]

Post by bzlrbi
I assume it would be audible on the Transporter. The question I have is
if the downsampled 24/192 would sound the same as the 24/96 version. I
don't have any DAC capable of handling 24/192 so, no, I can't do a
comparision.

The downsampling would have to be really badly implemented to be
audible.

In any case, paying extra for 192 k "just in case" doesn't make much
sense - I have not seen any studies that would have shown people can
hear the difference between 96 k and 192 k unless a really bad
downsampling algorithm is used. The studios also know this, and pretty
much nobody records in 192 k - so most of the stuff advertised as "192k"
is probably upsampled (or resampled from SACD).



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[pablolie]

Post by bzlrbi
Has anyone done an A/B comparison on downsampled 24/192 files vs.
"original" 24/96 files? I'm wondering if it's worth the few extra bucks
to buy stuff in 24/192 for the future, i.e. after my Transporter goes to
the Great Beyond. Or, will the "original" 24/96 files sound better on
the Transporter? Any opinions?
Thanks.

based on measurable human hearing thresholds the answer is "no". most
articles on the matter seem to indicate that the best ears out there max
out around 20/44 realistically. and the gatekeeper is what the recording
engineer was doing. it is very debatable whether many of my favorite
jazz albums ever even merit anything above 320mp3 based on the recording
quality.

but then there is the psychoacoustics that happen in the brain of the
audiophile aficionado, and just like i love to look at thick pure silver
speaker cables and interconnects, it doesn't bother me to pay the
premium and get the "HD" version of some of my favorite music, just to
make absolutely sure i am not missing on anything. we don't need to
justify to anyone if we blow a lot of money on equipment and cable, so
why shouldn't we pay an extra $10 for the source files of our favorite
records just to make sure our music shrine truly is at its absolute
ideal best?

my attitude is - hey, i know a lot of the stuff i do with audio doesn't
make scientific, measurable sense... but sue me. :-) i'll still do it.

so yes, i do have quite a few 24/192 files. i have listened to them
through USB (which delivers them at full res) and through wireless and
toslink (which gets me 24/98) and they sound absolutely identical, be it
via revealing monitor speakers or headphones. and despite that, if i am
going to bother, and i know the recording is excellent, why shouldn't i
get the 24/192?



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- Creek Destiny Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->-
KEF LS50
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> AudioEngine5
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[bzlrbi]

I have no problem telling the difference between a 16/44.1 and a 24/96
recording on my home system. I guess time will tell if I can hear a
difference between 24/96 and 24/192 (assuming of course that they are
all mastered from the original studio source).


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[Julf]

Post by bzlrbi
I have no problem telling the difference between a 16/44.1 and a 24/96
recording on my home system.

What downsampling software do you use?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[bzlrbi]

Post by Julf
What downsampling software do you use?

Audacity, if I'm so inclined. I've got varying sample rates (i.e. 16
vs. 24bit) on a number of recordings on a HD, and if I switch back/forth
"blindfolded", I bat about 100% on telling which is which. Despite what
the sarcastic know-it-alls might think.

For what I was inquiring about, I'll just buy the 24-192's and let the
Transporter handle it from there. No muss, no fuss...


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[Julf]

I've got varying sample rates (i.e. 16 vs. 24bit) on a number of
recordings on a HD, and if I switch back/forth "blindfolded", I bat
about 100% on telling which is which.

So these are recordings that all started as the same hi-res recording,
but were downsampled and/or truncated to lower sample rates and word
lengths by yourself?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[probedb]

Post by bzlrbi
Audacity, if I'm so inclined. I've got varying sample rates (i.e. 16
vs. 24bit) on a number of recordings on a HD, and if I switch back/forth
"blindfolded", I bat about 100% on telling which is which. Despite what
the sarcastic know-it-alls might think.

So the 16-bit recordings are resampled from the 24-bit recordings I take
it? If they're different recordings/masters/sources then your 'test' is
completely irrelevant and proves nothing.



'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb)
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[bzlrbi]

Post by probedb
So the 16-bit recordings are resampled from the 24-bit recordings I take
it? If they're different recordings/masters/sources then your 'test' is
completely irrelevant and proves nothing.

These are typically recordings separately mastered. Whether they
"prove" anything to you is not my concern.


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[Julf]

Post by bzlrbi
These are typically recordings separately mastered. Whether they
"prove" anything to you is not my concern.

Yes, they prove that you can hear differences between differently
mastered versions of the same record. They do not prove anything about
your ability to hear differences in word length or sample rate, so using
it to support your argument is a bit futile. Oh, and just to be a
pedant, 16 vs. 24bit has nothing to do with sample rates.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[bzlrbi]

Post by Julf
Yes, they prove that you can hear differences between differently
mastered versions of the same record. They do not prove anything about
your ability to hear differences in word length or sample rate, so using
it to support your argument is a bit futile. Oh, and just to be a
pedant, 16 vs. 24bit has nothing to do with sample rates.

Whatever. Bye.


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[Apesbrain]

Post by bzlrbi
Whatever. Bye.

These arguments are so predictable but this one was more predictable
than most.


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[Julf]

Post by Apesbrain
These arguments are so predictable but this one was more predictable
than most.

Maybe some day someone will actually respond with "Oh yes, true, I had
that wrong. Thanks!". Some day. Maybe. Not holding my breath. :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Post by bzlrbi
Whatever. Bye.
These arguments are so predictable but this one was more predictable
than most.
Maybe some day someone will actually respond with "Oh yes, true, I had
that wrong. Thanks!". Some day. Maybe. Not holding my breath. :)

Gentlemen you seemed to have missed the hidden meaning of the simple
"Whatever. Bye." statement. The statement is audiophile shorthand for "I
have golden ears, deep pockets and believe everything written by my
fellow golden eared audiophiles in the slickly produced high end audio
magazines. In addition, logic, science and objective proof are no match
for subjective listening."



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Julf]

In addition, logic, science and objective proof are no match for
subjective listening."

Ah yes! Logic, science and objective proof is for boring people.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Julf
Ah yes! Logic, science and objective proof is for boring people.

And for almost all other enthusiast hobbies such as photography, video,
computers (except Apple), automobiles. Wine and high end audio rely
wholly on unprovable subjective claims (and lots of advertising money).



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Julf]

Post by ralphpnj
And for almost all other enthusiast hobbies such as photography, video,
computers (except Apple), automobiles. Wine and high end audio rely
wholly on unprovable subjective claims (and lots of advertising money).

Even in wine they have now mostly moved to blind tasting...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Julf
Even in wine they have now mostly moved to blind tasting...

After about four glasses it's all blind testing :)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[get.amped]

...computers (except Apple)...

What's different about Apple?



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.9.0 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
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[ralphpnj]

Post by get.amped
What's different about Apple?

Nothing as far as the hardware and software is concerned. The Apple fan
boys, which at this point includes about 100% of the media, are another
story altogether. And let's not forget the advertising for Apple
products which would have one believe that an iPhone and/or an iPad can
do basically anything. Case in point, based on the latest Apple ads it
would seem that just having an iPhone in one's pocket will ensure
perfect health and fitness without the need to eat properly or exercise.
I've also noticed that some of the other computer/tablet/phone
manufacturers are copying this "pie in the sky" type of advertising.

Sad thing is I still haven't the app that enables my iPad to mow the
lawn.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[get.amped]

Post by ralphpnj
Nothing as far as the hardware and software is concerned. The Apple fan
boys, which at this point includes about 100% of the media, are another
story altogether. And let's not forget the advertising for Apple
products which would have one believe that an iPhone and/or an iPad can
do basically anything. Case in point, based on the latest Apple ads it
would seem that just having an iPhone in one's pocket will ensure
perfect health and fitness without the need to eat properly or exercise.
I've also noticed that some of the other computer/tablet/phone
manufacturers are copying this "pie in the sky" type of advertising.
Sad thing is I still haven't the app that enables my iPad to mow the
lawn.

I think I misread your meaning which is that "logic, science and
objective proof is for boring people" such as those who are "enthusiasts
[of] hobbies such as photography, video, computers (except Apple),
automobiles." In which case, I have to agree that I rarely find anyone
who chooses Apple products based on logic, science or objective proof.
Not sure that automobiles can be exempted though. Hard to explain MG
owners...



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.9.0 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
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[ralphpnj]

Post by get.amped
I think I misread your meaning which is that "logic, science and
objective proof is for boring people" such as those who are "enthusiasts
[of] hobbies such as photography, video, computers (except Apple),
automobiles." In which case, I have to agree that I rarely find anyone
who chooses Apple products based on logic, science or objective proof.
Not sure that automobiles can be exempted though. Hard to explain MG
owners...

MG owners are just people who really hate driving since most MGs are
rarely mechanically sound enough to drive, however MGs do look good
sitting on blocks in one's garage.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[RonM]

Post by ralphpnj
MG owners are just people who really hate driving since most MGs are
rarely mechanically sound enough to drive, however MGs do look good
sitting on blocks in one's garage.

I do have a friend with one of those, although the "on blocks" part is
generous. "In parts" is more like it.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
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[RonM]

Post by get.amped
I think I misread your meaning which is that "logic, science and
objective proof is for boring people" such as those who are "enthusiasts
[of] hobbies such as photography, video, computers (except Apple),
automobiles."

Actually, I read it slightly differently: "logic, science and objective
proof is for boring people" AND FOR "enthusiasts of hobbies. . .". The
latter not all being boring people.

R.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
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[garym]

Hard to explain MG owners...

As bad as they were my two MGs (1967 MGB and 1973 MG Midget (the latter
bought new no less)) were still better than my bright orange 1971 Austin
American. British Leyland at its best (worst). A (purchased much later
just for fun) 2nd hand 1965 VW Bug was a perfect car in comparison.
Those MGs did look cool though!



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
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[Julf]

Post by get.amped
Not sure that automobiles can be exempted though.

You have a point...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[netchord]

Post by bzlrbi
Whatever. Bye.

i wish i could rep this post.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
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G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
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[Mnyb]

But the original Q is also a bit futile as the transporter only supports
24/96 so 24/192 downsampled by the server anyway ?
To 24/96 .

So the choice is to buy 24/96 downsample 192 k files yourself or let LMS
do it for you .

Sonically the end result will be the same .

Personally i opted for not buying anything >24/96 as we are well past
the piont where it would make any difference to a human listener . So
24/96 is the limit for me .

And yes if I downsample my 24/96 files to 16/44 they sound exactly the
same .

And of course a dvda 24/96 of the same recording does in some cases
sound different than my cd version but the "24/96" has nothing to do
with it .

Buy the best master you can get of your fav recording , but this does
not corelate to the media it can be the LP , CD. Or Hirez version that
is the best . Sugest visiting some music related forum to get opinoins
on whats the best version of a recording



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[Apesbrain]

Post by bzlrbi
I have no problem telling the difference between a 16/44.1 and a 24/96
recording on my home system.

There you go. I now completely understand your concern about
"down-rezzing" those pristine high-bit files for your lowly Transporter
but the good news is that there's no need: you can buy original 24/96
files now and simply re-purchase the same music in the highest then
available format when you have a real DAC. Since you're one of the
lucky people who can hear the difference, of course you would appreciate
the 24/192 although you might wait for 24/384 because it will be -twice-
as good. I've read that DSD512 support -- -almost 35,000 times the CD
data rate- -- is right around the corner! Imagine the veils that will
be lifted! Just thinking about it gives me goosebumps!


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