[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD's vs. vinyl

[usc95]

I have never understood the resurgence of vinyl and the insistence of
those who swear it sounds better. Perhaps my limited budget for gear
will forever condemn me to enjoying digital music and missing the
superior pops and hiss of my youth but I don't plan on buying back in
and will have to make do with my beloved squeezebox and digital music.
I found the following article an interesting read and thought some of
you might as well:
http://www.laweekly.com/music/why-cds-may-actually-sound-better-than-vinyl-5352162


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[dasmueller]

Quite interesting. Thanks for posting this. I can remember one of the
1st CD's I bought was a recording of the 1812 Overture. I was able to
hear things that were not there before. Or so I thought/believe. I did
not have the same recording in the vinyl medium to do a comparison. the
precept of the wider dynamic range being most effective for "classical"
music makes sense to me though.


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[paulster]

CD as a medium is arguably superior. High resolution is definitely
superior.

But, and here's the but, check out the dynamic range comparisons of
modern CD releases versus the vinyl releases at
http://dr.loudness-war.info/ and you'll see why vinyl can be a source of
much better recordings these days. You can't compress the crap out of
vinyl and then expect to be able to cut the grooves, so they don't have
a choice but to not apply such ridiculous levels of compression.

This is a great example of a record company really getting it wrong:
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=foo+fighters&album=wasting+light
Terrible dynamics on the CD, and yet the vinyl has pretty dynamic range.
But the kicker is the MP3s you can download for free with the vinyl are
from the same master as the vinyl, so probably sound way better than the
CD too!



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[dasmueller]

I do not pretend to understand all this, but sometimes the folks making
decisions are not qualified to do so from the example above


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[pablolie]

none of this will make me revive my Technics turntable ever. i was glad
when i was digitizing my LP collection. i will never ever spin a record
again. i made sure everything was at its best when i digitized - clean
the -nearly new- needle, microfiber brush on the record etc etc. never
saw the magic in the inconvenient ritual. loved CDs as soon as they came
out.



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[philippe_44]

What is interesting is too see again "more is better" which is really
BS. As somebody else pointed out in another thread, it is confusion
between perception, psychology and theory. 16 bits @ 44.1KHz gives you a
certain quantity of information (in the meaning of information's theory)
and this is math, not black magic and not open for "opinion". 24 bits @
192 kHz gives you more, but totally marginal for human senses. Now it is
about what you do with that quantity of information: all sort of pre and
post processing (including cigar and cognac) will absolutely change *a
lot* the listening experience, no doubt, but you can get this wide range
of results with 16/44.1, do not need to use the excuse of bitrate



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[Julf]

Post by philippe_44
this is math, not black magic and not open for "opinion".

"Ah, but what do scientists think they know about art, music and
enjoyment?" :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[RonM]

Post by Julf
"Ah, but what do scientists think they know about art, music and
enjoyment?" :)

Actually, your typical scientist knows a great deal more about art,music
and enjoyment, than the typical art or music critic knows about science.



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[Julf]

Post by paulster
But, and here's the but, check out the dynamic range comparisons of
modern CD releases versus the vinyl releases at
http://dr.loudness-war.info/ and you'll see why vinyl can be a source of
much better recordings these days.

*Can* be. Often isn't. Exactly the same master will often show a higher
DR number for the vinyl version than the CD version just because the
non-linearity and noise of vinyl. The DR numbers can be misleading.

Often dynamic compression is an artistic choice. The CD sounds the way
it sounds, because that is how the artists, producers and studio
engineers intended it to sound.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[paulster]

Post by Julf
*Can* be. Often isn't. Exactly the same master will often show a higher
DR number for the vinyl version than the CD version just because the
non-linearity and noise of vinyl. The DR numbers can be misleading.

True, but look at the example I posted. Unless there's a different MP3
master, you can see the small difference in DR between the vinyl and the
MP3 because of the differences in the media types, but you can also see
that they are both manifestly different from the CD.

Post by Julf
Often dynamic compression is an artistic choice. The CD sounds the way
it sounds, because that is how the artists, producers and studio
engineers intended it to sound.

You will usually find that artists want their music to sound as good as
possible. Unfortunately they have to turn their works over to the
record company when they've finished tracking and mixing, for it to
usually get butchered at the mastering house. It is rare that artists
get control over the mastering, and that's where the damage really seems
to occur. Granted, there are producers and mixing engineers who engage
in loudness war tactics, but they are usually concerned with getting it
to sound as good as they can on the mains in the studio. And, on the
flipside, there are mastering engineers who also go to great lengths to
try to preserve the integrity of the source material.

When you hear a modern record being played back in the studio post
mixing, but prior to mastering, it'll sound a world apart from what will
typically be released out into the wild.



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[Julf]

Post by paulster
True, but look at the example I posted. Unless there's a different MP3
master, you can see the small difference in DR between the vinyl and the
MP3 because of the differences in the media types, but you can also see
that they are both manifestly different from the CD.

Sure, your example is pretty clear. Just wanted to warn against
generalizing to other records.

Post by paulster
You will usually find that artists want their music to sound as good as
possible.

But sometimes the artist has a different idea of "good" than the average
audiophile. My favourite recent example is Daft Punk, who have pretty
much 100% control over the end result. Check out their DR numbers...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[paulster]

Post by Julf
But sometimes the artist has a different idea of "good" than the average
audiophile. My favourite recent example is Daft Punk, who have pretty
much 100% control over the end result. Check out their DR numbers...

This is a great example, actually. Random Access Memories sounds pretty
good, but has poor DR scores. Also, the scores for NIN's Hesitation
Marks Audiophile Mastered release aren't great either.
Heavily-synthesized music does seem to reflect poorly in general in DR
terms, so I wouldn't use this as an arbiter of whether a record is going
to sound good or not.

You could also have had an original CD master done with terrible ADCs
that would be dynamic, but harsh, and a modern remaster which was more
compressed but done on much better converters that could sound a whole
lot better, despite having a worse DR score.



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[ralphpnj]

Post by usc95
I have never understood the resurgence of vinyl and the insistence of
those who swear it sounds better. Perhaps my limited budget for gear
will forever condemn me to enjoying digital music and missing the
superior pops and hiss of my youth but I don't plan on buying back in
and will have to make do with my beloved squeezebox and digital music.
I found the following article an interesting read and thought some of
http://www.laweekly.com/music/why-cds-may-actually-sound-better-than-vinyl-5352162

Thanks for the link! A very informative article.

Post by usc95
And for an example of a company really getting it wrong, how about Neil
Young and his Pono claiming that dynamic compression and the loudness
wars are caused by mp3?

Neil Young should know better. Dynamic range compression has been around
a lot longer than digital audio and the mp3 format. Dynamic range
compression has been used in radio broadcasting since at the 1960s, if
not before that. Dynamic range compression is used to make the quieter
passages louder since when one is listening to the radio in a car the
quiet passages can often sound like "dead air" and "dead air" in radio
means death, i.e. that the listener will just change to another radio
station. The big difference between the dynamic range compression that
was used by radio stations and the the dynamic range compression in use
today is that in the old days the radio stations did the compressing (of
an uncompressed recording) whereas today the recording comes with
dynamic range compression already applied and once applied there is no
way to uncompress and restore the original dynamic range of the
recording.



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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
Thanks for the link! A very informative article.
Neil Young should know better. Dynamic range compression has been around
a lot longer than digital audio and the mp3 format. Dynamic range
compression has been used in radio broadcasting since at the 1960s, if
not before that. Dynamic range compression is used to make the quieter
passages louder since when one is listening to the radio in a car the
quiet passages can often sound like "dead air" and "dead air" in radio
means death, i.e. that the listener will just change to another radio
station. The big difference between the dynamic range compression that
was used by radio stations and the the dynamic range compression in use
today is that in the old days the radio stations did the compressing (of
an uncompressed recording) whereas today the recording comes with
dynamic range compression already applied and once applied there is no
way to uncompress and restore the original dynamic range of the
recording.

Yup... Hate it when the sound is "baked in" :-(

Time for a blog post on this:
'MUSINGS: The ongoing Vinyl vs. Digital debate...'
(http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/02/musings-ongoing-vinyl-vs-digital-debate.html)

Fascinating how Fremer brought out an article of questionable value... I
see he also got upset at Neil Young (that's OK, who isn't upset at NY
these days!?). Do these guys actually read what they post up!?



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[paulster]

Great blog post. I love my vinyl, but I hate that I have to love
listening to vinyl to get better quality sound out of an inferior
medium, because of the ongoing loudness wars!



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[Archimago]

Post by paulster
Great blog post. I love my vinyl, but I hate that I have to love
listening to vinyl to get better quality sound out of an inferior
medium, because of the ongoing loudness wars!

Yeah. That's a tragedy IMO! As much as I can enjoy needle drops, they're
still obviously not as good as the original direct-to-digital.

Please indulge me for a second...

/rant on!/

It's really quite sad that on the one hand we have folks like Neil Young
pushing digital but seemingly -moronic- in relying on "big numbers" to
impress the populace who I think have essentially had enough. Who knows
if this can be turned around, but I honestly hope Neil can start
speaking sense.

On the other hand we have vinyl pushers like Mike Fremer promoting a
technologically obsolete format which has ZERO chance of going
mainstream again no matter how much of a revival it might enjoy at this
time. I wish I could enjoy his comedy shtick promoting vinyl like this
if only I weren't so disgusted. Tonight I see he has a review of the new
Dylan album. Good review and I might pick up the album... However, he
insists the CD sounds bad and even considered if the better sounding
vinyl was because it originated from the 24-bit master. Yeah, right...
Unless they're different masterings, the idea of hearing the
"improvement" 24-bit makes after going through the vinyl LP process is
beyond ridiculous. There are other possibilities, but -how can anyone in
their right mind even declare this kind of hypothesis with a straight
face and consider himself educated as an audio reviewer!?-

Looking around the Net we find...

Mike Lavorgna on AudioStream. I think he's a nice enough guy but in the
business of advertisement. But there's all the crazy tweaks and
Synergistic wares peddled by that Steve Plaskin guy. Horrifying.

I don't know what to think of the Computer Audiophile any more. Looks
like he's happy to take a sponsorship to visit a factory and basically
regurgitates ad copy in those "reviews". Lately posting up
audiophile-approved pretentious "designs" of computers that bear
unpronounceable names with claims of audible superiority. Jeez... If one
is going to talk about improved jitter, lower noise (like with filtered
"clean" USB ports), please, at least demonstrate *something* to show the
components made a difference as claimed. These things are measurable,
right!?

Stereophile, TAS, Hi-Fi+, UHF Magazine here in N. America... What's
there to say?

Sadly, these are the mouthpieces of audiophilia.

I have a feeling that the MQA rhetoric is going to get "good" in the
months ahead. Prepare for Bob Stuart the salesman taking over from Neil
Young.

/rant off!/

Despite my general pessimism, I actually have a contrarian streak which
is telling me -maybe it really is darkest before the dawn-...



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[Mnyb]

Post by Archimago
Yeah. That's a tragedy IMO! As much as I can enjoy needle drops, they're
still obviously not as good as the original direct-to-digital.
Please indulge me for a second...
/rant on!/
It's really quite sad that on the one hand we have folks like Neil Young
pushing digital but seemingly -moronic- in relying on "big numbers" to
impress the populace who I think have essentially had enough. Who knows
if this can be turned around, but I honestly hope Neil can start
speaking sense.
On the other hand we have vinyl pushers like Mike Fremer promoting a
technologically obsolete format which has ZERO chance of going
mainstream again no matter how much of a revival it might enjoy at this
time. I wish I could enjoy his comedy shtick promoting vinyl like this
if only I weren't so disgusted. Tonight I see he has a review of the new
Dylan album. Good review and I might pick up the album... However, he
insists the CD sounds bad and even considered if the better sounding
vinyl was because it originated from the 24-bit master. Yeah, right...
Unless they're different masterings, the idea of hearing the
"improvement" 24-bit makes after going through the vinyl LP process is
beyond ridiculous. There are other possibilities, but -how can anyone in
their right mind even declare this kind of hypothesis with a straight
face and consider himself educated as an audio reviewer!?-
Looking around the Net we find...
Mike Lavorgna on AudioStream. I think he's a nice enough guy but in the
business of advertisement. But there's all the crazy tweaks and
Synergistic wares peddled by that Steve Plaskin guy. Horrifying.
I don't know what to think of the Computer Audiophile any more. Looks
like he's happy to take a sponsorship to visit a factory and basically
regurgitates ad copy in those "reviews". Lately posting up
audiophile-approved pretentious "designs" of computers that bear
unpronounceable names with claims of audible superiority. Jeez... If one
is going to talk about improved jitter, lower noise (like with filtered
"clean" USB ports), please, at least demonstrate *something* to show the
components made a difference as claimed. These things are measurable,
right!?
Stereophile, TAS, Hi-Fi+, UHF Magazine here in N. America... What's
there to say?
Sadly, these are the mouthpieces of audiophilia.
I have a feeling that the MQA rhetoric is going to get "good" in the
months ahead. Prepare for Bob Stuart the salesman taking over from Neil
Young.
/rant off!/
Despite my general pessimism, I actually have a contrarian streak which
is telling me -maybe it really is darkest before the dawn-...

The ligth in the tunnel... it's the train :P



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[cliveb]

Let me start by stating that I fully understand and acknowledge that
vinyl is a deeply flawed and inaccurate medium. In all objective senses
it is vastly inferior to CD. I long ago gave up using vinyl for
day-to-day listening (although I still transfer LPs to digital as a
hobby).

And yet... back in the late 1980s my listening was a mixture of CD and
vinyl. I clearly recall that in any given session, once I ever put on an
LP, I never wanted to listen to a CD again that evening - the remainder
of the session was exclusively vinyl. Bear in mind that this was in the
days before CDs were routinely trashed with hypercompression, so that
wouldn't account for it.

Even now, when a needle-drop gets played over the Transporter it somehow
grabs my attention that many CD sourced files don't.

There has to be something euphonic about the shortcomings of vinyl.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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[probedb]

Post by cliveb
There has to be something euphonic about the shortcomings of vinyl.

Not really, you just happen to like the distortion etc that it
introduces, some people like lots of bass, some people like different
EQs. It's just that for vinyl people mistakenly associate it with a
better sound. There's nothing wrong with liking the sound of vinyl at
all.



'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb)
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[Mike Sargent]

Post by probedb
Not really, you just happen to like the distortion etc that it
introduces, some people like lots of bass, some people like different
EQs. It's just that for vinyl people mistakenly associate it with a
better sound. There's nothing wrong with liking the sound of vinyl at
all.

I think there is serious money to be made by someone who builds a device
that sits between a CD player and an amp that introduces all of the
distortions, frequency limitations, wow & flutter, etc. that vinyl has,
and then periodically adds a click or snap to the audio and maybe even
once a day skips forward or backward on a particularly loud passage to
simulate a tone arm skip. An extra cost option would allow the user to
control just how badly the mismatch is between the RIAA equalization
curve applied during recording and playback. It could include a
magnifying glass so CD artwork appears as big as an album cover.

I think I'm off to the patent office.

Mike


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[bonze]

Post by Mike Sargent
I think there is serious money to be made by someone who builds a device
that sits between a CD player and an amp that introduces all of the
distortions, frequency limitations, wow & flutter, etc. that vinyl has,
and then periodically adds a click or snap to the audio and maybe even
once a day skips forward or backward on a particularly loud passage to
simulate a tone arm skip. An extra cost option would allow the user to
control just how badly the mismatch is between the RIAA equalization
curve applied during recording and playback. It could include a
magnifying glass so CD artwork appears as big as an album cover.
I think I'm off to the patent office.
MikeHmm, I may also patent the device I used to use to stop the arm

jumping.
OK, it may look like an old one penny coin and a piece of cellotape, but
I can include some mystical words in the advert.



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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mike Sargent
I think there is serious money to be made by someone who builds a device
that sits between a CD player and an amp that introduces all of the
distortions, frequency limitations, wow & flutter, etc. that vinyl has,
and then periodically adds a click or snap to the audio and maybe even
once a day skips forward or backward on a particularly loud passage to
simulate a tone arm skip. An extra cost option would allow the user to
control just how badly the mismatch is between the RIAA equalization
curve applied during recording and playback. It could include a
magnifying glass so CD artwork appears as big as an album cover.
I think I'm off to the patent office.
Mike

Hate to burst your bubble but there already is a way to accomplish this
and it's called a needle drop, i.e. playing a record and digitally
recording it. Plus you can even set the bit depth and sampling rate to
something like 24bit/96kHz in order to a high resolution version of all
those vinyl distortions. And by not doing any kind post recording clean
up one can capture all those lovely vinyl clicks and pops as well. Sure
your device would be much more convenient but after all what do vinyl
lovers care about convenience. Needle drops for all!!!!!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
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Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
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[Mnyb]

Post by Mike Sargent
I think there is serious money to be made by someone who builds a device
that sits between a CD player and an amp that introduces all of the
distortions, frequency limitations, wow & flutter, etc. that vinyl has,
and then periodically adds a click or snap to the audio and maybe even
once a day skips forward or backward on a particularly loud passage to
simulate a tone arm skip. An extra cost option would allow the user to
control just how badly the mismatch is between the RIAA equalization
curve applied during recording and playback. It could include a
magnifying glass so CD artwork appears as big as an album cover.
I think I'm off to the patent office.
Mike

we where halfway there in the early 90's there was an actual device that
downtransformed and anti-riaa filtered the output of CD player to
something you could put into your phono input on your beloved high end
rig .
I'm surprised that it did not caugth on ? it's cargo cult enough to be
an instant hit ?

I'm also miffed by how some audio writers that claims to know stuff
misunderstand the implications of correctly used dither noise in digital
audio. Claiming nonsense like at minus such and such dB the music is
only presented at 5 bits that’s not how things work .
The noise in a dithered digital chain becomes random and uncorrelated to
the sampling it's mathematically equal to random analog noise such as
tape noise , the dithered digital system then behaves like the perfect
analog system that never was a signal and a noise floor .

See Monthys videos about digital audio at xiph org where he presents a
signal presented by 1/4 bit clearly visible in the noise if you don’t
believe me :) and also debunks the myth that a digital system does not
get it's timing better than the sample rate .

Our reconstruction filters in our digital systems may not be perfect but
that’s really a red herring these errors are magnitudes below what vinyl
or tape does to the signal .

So using 11-13 bits it's no problem when doing a vinyl rip so 16bits is
just fine . However in the procedure I would use 24/96 ADC and then run
some minor adjustments and anti click if necessary , but then
downconverting to 16/48 would not do any harm .
Actually capturing >20kHz from a vinyl in practice the very best pickups
in the very best turntable and arm and a vinyl in mint condition might
do it .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Julf]

Post by Mike Sargent
I think I'm off to the patent office.

'iZotope vinyl'
(https://www.izotope.com/en/products/effects-instruments/vinyl/)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

Post by Julf
'iZotope vinyl'
(https://www.izotope.com/en/products/effects-instruments/vinyl/)

Does it simulate the other things like frequency dependent channel
separation ,phase variations and a slight acoustic feedback :)

The background noise has an interesting feature it has something akin to
dimensionality . Vinyl never gets as "dry" as a more perfect system it
never simulates a point IME .
I mean it's somewhat simulates 3D on its own even with bone dry source
material can be some very low level post echo from the acoustic feedback
that always exists .
Resonances from the platter etc .

I also experimented with removing the box around the sub chassi of one
of my players and also removed the bottom plate on one player . All this
significantly change their sound .
Wonder what mechanics are involved when the chassi or plint have a sound
?

I have Systemdeck with bruer tone arm and XYZ and ortofon pickups
somewhere , but as i've sold all my vinyl it's rarely used .
I was young when CD took over in so I opted out at 300-400 vinyls and
sold them and gone digital since ..

For a while i even rresisted CD and was hooked on vinyl .

I also recall some of the older cheaper CD players not sounding
particularly good . One Yamaha a friend had even had audible high
frequency swirling noises like aliasing artefacts !? on some material .

I very cheap soundcard from a decade ago can exhibit the same thing my
old PC had that tones from 19-22 kHZ produced artefacts .

Test this if you have a really crummy soundcard , or by all means try
these tones on your hifi especially if your DAC is of some kind of
"unorthodox design" :D ( meaning voodoo crap )
http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_aliasing.php



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Mike Sargent]

Post by Julf
'iZotope vinyl'
(https://www.izotope.com/en/products/effects-instruments/vinyl/)

That's what I get for trying to be clever. Build a better mousetrap and
nature will build better mice.

Mike


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[pablolie]

i still have my turntable in storage, because i have about 10 LPs i
didn't digitize yet. i wonder if that procrastination was an excuse to
simply keep it.

ah the old days. mixing friends a tape would take over the hours, from
pristinely played LP to compact cassette. it meant something. but
listening to LPs was so unwieldly i had tons of mixed tapes. a lot of my
listening sessions were cassette recording sessions.

but i am in no way missing the ritual. even playing CDs was intrusive.
my CDs and my remaining LPs live the exact same fate - they are in
storage.

for my favorite albums i scanned and PDFd the artwork and booklet, and
will sometimes check it out and read as i listen. i have started to buy
CDs again, because you can buy many dead cheap used and flac them. then
they're put away into a big box i drop off at Rasputin with regularity.
my favorite CDs remain in relatively inaccessible storage. maybe i'll
digitize the rest of them. but i have become lazy :-) some of them
stgarted to appear as torrents, and i see nothing illegal about
downloading them because i own the media, after all. :-)

the analog ritual - no way, i don't miss any of it. there is absolutely
no doubt in my mind CDs always sounded better, even in their worst early
days. my turntable was (is) a Technics 1210 with a better arm and
needle. i fondly remember my premium Denon 1290 CD player, because it
was really good, connected to a used Luxman amp and modded German
speakers. that was my main rig for 10 very satisfying years that saw my
CD collection grow into the 1000s.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity
M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e
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[RonM]

Post by cliveb
Let me start by stating that I fully understand and acknowledge that
vinyl is a deeply flawed and inaccurate medium. In all objective senses
it is vastly inferior to CD. I long ago gave up using vinyl for
day-to-day listening (although I still transfer LPs to digital as a
hobby).
And yet... back in the late 1980s my listening was a mixture of CD and
vinyl. I clearly recall that in any given session, once I ever put on an
LP, I never wanted to listen to a CD again that evening - the remainder
of the session was exclusively vinyl. Bear in mind that this was in the
days before CDs were routinely trashed with hypercompression, so that
wouldn't account for it.
Even now, when a needle-drop gets played over the Transporter it somehow
grabs my attention that many CD sourced files don't.
There has to be something euphonic about the shortcomings of vinyl.

When CDs were young, they were often not very well done. Especially
when recorded digitally with early equipment. For instance, Ry Cooder's
Bop 'Till You Drop was the first major label release that was "all
digital" and it just does not sound very good. It's not hard to imagine
a combination of inadequate recording/mastering/production, along with
early inferior DACs in inexpensive CD players, resulting in a listening
experience inferior to a tried and true (albeit limited) technology like
vinyl.

Situation is different now. S****y CDs still abound, but it's usually
the result of conscious decisions. And probably no one on this forum
actually has CD players with as poor sound reproduction as we probably
all had in the 80s.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC3)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
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[pablolie]

Post by RonM
When CDs were young, they were often not very well done. Especially
when recorded digitally with early equipment. For instance, Ry Cooder's
Bop 'Till You Drop was the first major label release that was "all
digital" and it just does not sound very good. It's not hard to imagine
a combination of inadequate recording/mastering/production, along with
early inferior DACs in inexpensive CD players, resulting in a listening
experience inferior to a tried and true (albeit limited) technology like
vinyl.
Situation is different now. S****y CDs still abound, but it's usually
the result of conscious decisions. And probably no one on this forum
actually has CD players with as poor sound reproduction as we probably
all had in the 80s.

early CD players and many early CD recordings (some of those who proudly
declared themselves DDD on the back sleeve) were kinda yucky. plus our
ears maybe weren't used to all the digital "brightness", oh, and they
were 30 years younger too. :-)

of course i have some of those CDs, now as flac or MP3, and they still
sound utterly horrible (and they were converted correctly, so yes, bit
perfect original). so i still experience that "wow this sounds like a
64k MP3 and it's a flac" moment every once in a while when i come across
those.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity
M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e
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[Mnyb]

Found some history here .

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/early-pop-rock-full-digital-recordings.211920/

And here .

http://www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/fine_dawn-of-digital.pdf



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Mnyb]

OT fell free to direct me to another tread if one exist .

Really old CD's can have pre-emphasise aplied they then the CD player
used its de-emphasis filter to counteract ?
( a rise in the treble to avoid noise in the recording equipment , the
subsequent damping of it in the playback system )

What happens when we rip such CD I suspect that this info gets lost ? Do
you know a way to regognises this a marking on the cd case , put it in a
25 year old CD player and watch the de-emp ligth come on ?
Is there a de-emp filter for foobar or dBpower amp etc ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Gandhi]

Post by Mnyb
What happens when we rip such CD I suspect that this info gets lost ? Do
you know a way to regognises this a marking on the cd case , put it in a
25 year old CD player and watch the de-emp ligth come on ?
Is there a de-emp filter for foobar or dBpower amp etc ?

*Filters*
foobar2000 (foo_dsp_effect)
sox

*Detection*
dBpoweramp

There are probably many others too. As de-emphasis just is a filter, it
could be done using any filter editor if you know the coefficients. I
once saw eledged ones at some website.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
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[atrocity]

DETECTION
dBpoweramp

CueTools can also detect pre-emphasis.

Just to make it more confusing, the flag can be (IIRC) in either the TOC
or subcode. dBpoweramp and EAC detect one but not the other.

I've got a Japanese black label pressing of "The Dark Side of the Moon"
(one of the first CDs I ever bought, circa January 1985). dBpoweramp
says there's no pre-emphasis, but CueTools says there is.


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[paulster]

Post by atrocity
CueTools can also detect pre-emphasis.
Just to make it more confusing, the flag can be (IIRC) in either the TOC
or subcode. dBpoweramp and EAC detect one but not the other.
I've got a Japanese black label pressing of "The Dark Side of the Moon"
(one of the first CDs I ever bought, circa January 1985). dBpoweramp
says there's no pre-emphasis, but CueTools says there is.

There are two places for storing pre-emphasis flags on CDs. I think
it's in the TOC or in the tracks themselves somehow. I have a Linux
utilitity (whose name escapes me as I have a script wrapper around it)
that checks both places.



Receiver stuck at blue LED state after reboot? Please vote for bug
'17462' (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17462)
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[paulster]

Post by Mnyb
What happens when we rip such CD I suspect that this info gets lost ?

You are correct that it gets lost. Some rippers that detect it can add
a tag into the data, or apply de-emphasis, but there isn't a standard
tag (that I'm aware of) that allows automatic de-emphasis at playback.

Throughout my collection (which admittedly doesn't have a lot of 80s
classical CDs where this is far more prevalent) I found precisely one CD
with pre-emphasis.



Receiver stuck at blue LED state after reboot? Please vote for bug
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[Wombat]

The only defacto standard that exists is imho the "FLAGS PRE" info that
can be part of a CUEsheet. EAC detects and adds it a while now. I guess
foobar can add de-emphasis on the fly with a plugin on playback.
XLD for example couldn't detect it a while and implemented it pretty
late.
itunes applies an EQ for de-emphasis while ripping. Last time i checked
it was more then 1dB off.
The filter itself can be created with several EQs that have the correct
behaviour. There are also convolver presets for foobar. Waves "Q"
equalizers did this many years back already also with the abbility for
pre-emphasis for mastering.
The most accurate implementation may be the biquad used in SoX and its
deemph option.
The values for the filter are gain=-9.477, frequency=5283 kHz and
slope=0.4845
As biquad highshelf this should be for SoX:
sox i o treble -9.477 5283 0.4845
I collected several pre-emphasised testtones created by different
sources and all are more or less different. I use a slight different
curve therefore to have a slight dipp in the critical area. Better
-0.1dB to less as +0.1dB to much @4kHz



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[SuperQ]

Post by cliveb
Let me start by stating that I fully understand and acknowledge that
vinyl is a deeply flawed and inaccurate medium. ...
Even now, when a needle-drop gets played over the Transporter it somehow
grabs my attention that many CD sourced files don't.
There has to be something euphonic about the shortcomings of vinyl.

Maybe just have a needle-drop plugin that inserts one for every track?
:-)


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[get.amped]

coverlib.com has lots of cover art including booklets.



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.9.0 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
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[Julf]

how can anyone in their right mind even declare this kind of hypothesis
with a straight face and consider himself educated as an audio
reviewer!?

I don't think "educated as an audio reviewer" implies actually having to
know or understand anything... :)

I don't know what to think of the Computer Audiophile any more.

Well, I do know what I think - apart from the obvious commercial
promotion and bias, there is the fact that anyone who is critical of the
BS, or the stuff spewed out by a few "big names" he has attracted (I
wonder if they get compensated) gets blocked, and any "objective"
threads just disappear.

Despite my general pessimism, I actually have a contrarian streak which
is telling me -maybe it really is darkest before the dawn-...

I think the hi-fi industry is going to continue splitting into the
high-end/lifestyle/feng shui millionaire segment and basic, good
sounding audio for everyone.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Yup... Hate it when the sound is "baked in" :-(
'MUSINGS: The ongoing Vinyl vs. Digital debate...'
(http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/02/musings-ongoing-vinyl-vs-digital-debate.html)
Fascinating how the vinylphile's vinylphile Fremer brought out an
article of questionable value... Do these guys actually read what they
post up!?
I see he also got upset at Neil Young the other day (that's OK, who
isn't upset at NY these days!?).

Another nice post. Archimago you are spoiling us with the consistently
high quality of your blog posts. The writing and the objectivity of
these posts lays bare the clownish nature of of the garbage that gets
that published in the "official" high end audio publications. Please
keep up the good, no great, work.

This post got me to thinking about an area where digital audio continues
to fall way short of it's vast potential. I'm referring to the lack of
hyper-linking within a digital audio music library. For example by this
I mean the ability to be listening to Miles Davis' classic "Kind of
Blue" while looking at the "now playing" display on either a computer,
tablet or smart phone and having the all the information about the
recording right in front of you but with full hyperlinks to various
aspects of the recording. There would hyperlinks on the all the songs,
composers, musicians and recording data (engineer, studio, date, etc.)
and clicking on any hyperlink would bring up information about that
item, both in general and in one's own music library. Click on "Bill
Evans" (the piano player on "Kind of Blue") and one could see a full
biography and discography of Mr. Evans plus a list of all the recordings
in one's music library that Evans appears on. To me this is the kind of
connectivity and information that computer based audio should be
striving for and once this kind hyper-linking is properly and fully
developed and implemented the power of computer based digital audio
would be well beyond reproach.

By the way the excellent program "Muso" (http://klarita.net/muso.html),
which is an LMS front end player and music library information center
for use on Windows computers, has a few of the features I outlined above
and is moving in the right direction. In addition I believe that the
Sooloos/Meridian music server system also has some of these features.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[audio53]

...This post got me to thinking about an area where digital audio
continues to fall way short of it's vast potential. I'm referring to the
lack of hyper-linking within a digital audio music library. For example
by this I mean the ability to be listening to Miles Davis' classic "Kind
of Blue" while looking at the "now playing" display on either a
computer, tablet or smart phone and having the all the information about
the recording right in front of you but with full hyperlinks to various
aspects of the recording. There would hyperlinks on the all the songs,
composers, musicians and recording data (engineer, studio, date, etc.)
and clicking on any hyperlink would bring up information about that
item, both in general and in one's own music library. Click on "Bill
Evans" (the piano player on "Kind of Blue") and one could see a full
biography and discography of Mr. Evans plus a list of all the recordings
in one's music library that Evans appears on. To me this is the kind of
connectivity and information that computer based audio should be
striving for and once this kind hyper-linking is properly and fully
developed and implemented the power of computer based digital audio
would be well beyond reproach.

Do we really need all of this distraction while listening to music? I
realize it is all 'different strokes for different folks', but I can't
imagine the value of spending my listening time clicking through a bunch
of hyperlinks.



Regards,
Bob

FLAC->SB Touch (wired)->PS Audio DLIII DAC->Yamaha RX-595->Paradigm
Reference Studio 60 v.5.
Music files are stored on a Synology NAS.
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[ralphpnj]

Post by audio53
Do we really need all of this distraction while listening to music? I
realize it is all 'different strokes for different folks', but I can't
imagine the value of spending my listening time clicking through a bunch
of hyperlinks.

I can understand your thinking about spending listening time clicking
away but that is not actually what I had in mind. As a long time jazz
fan and listener I am more interested in being able to go from one
recording to another related recording with just a few clicks. So I
might be listening to a Miles Davis recording where I find the alto sax
is doing some incredible playing then I could simply click on that
musician's name and presto I see of list of all the recording in my
music library that feature that particular musician. Or as you stated I
could just sit back and enjoy the music.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
...
This post got me to thinking about an area where digital audio continues
to fall way short of it's vast potential. I'm referring to the lack of
hyper-linking within a digital audio music library. For example by this
I mean the ability to be listening to Miles Davis' classic "Kind of
Blue" while looking at the "now playing" display on either a computer,
tablet or smart phone and having the all the information about the
recording right in front of you but with full hyperlinks to various
aspects of the recording. There would hyperlinks on the all the songs,
composers, musicians and recording data (engineer, studio, date, etc.)
and clicking on any hyperlink would bring up information about that
item, both in general and in one's own music library. Click on "Bill
Evans" (the piano player on "Kind of Blue") and one could see a full
biography and discography of Mr. Evans plus a list of all the recordings
in one's music library that Evans appears on. To me this is the kind of
connectivity and information that computer based audio should be
striving for and once this kind hyper-linking is properly and fully
developed and implemented the power of computer based digital audio
would be well beyond reproach.
By the way the excellent program "Muso" (http://klarita.net/muso.html),
which is an LMS front end player and music library information center
for use on Windows computers, has a few of the features I outlined above
and is moving in the right direction. In addition I believe that the
Sooloos/Meridian music server system also has some of these features.

Interesting comment about the links and Muso.

I tried Muso about a couple years back. Nice idea and features but I
didn't buy it because I rarely played the music off the Windows
machine.

There could be a lot of work done to improve the "virtual" cover/booklet
experience. I control the music with my Android tablet using Squeeze
Commander most of the time or 'eos' when I'm playing songs as DLNA off
JRiver. We can of course look at the cover already but I do want more!
Apps like FoobarCon goes online and has lyrics playback and can dig out
biographies and discographies for the artist.

Like pablolie, I have most (essentially all) of my CD's in the server
now but I have the booklets scanned as JPGs into an "Art" folder in the
folder of the album. I would love to somehow have a control device like
my Android tablet access that 'Art' directory to show the pages if I
want to read the booklet. Should not be difficult I would guess? I don't
see how this can be done at present. For me, this would go a good ways
towards matching something like the CD at least; a convenient way to see
and read the booklet integrated into the control UI device that I've
scanned in already.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Interesting comment about the links and Muso.
I tried Muso about a couple years back. Nice idea and features but I
didn't buy it because I rarely played the music off the Windows
machine.
There could be a lot of work done to improve the "virtual" cover/booklet
experience. I control the music with my Android tablet using Squeeze
Commander most of the time or 'eos' when I'm playing songs as DLNA off
JRiver. We can of course look at the cover already but I do want more!
Apps like FoobarCon goes online and has lyrics playback and can dig out
biographies and discographies for the artist.
Like pablolie, I have most (essentially all) of my CD's in the server
now but I have the booklets scanned as JPGs into an "Art" folder in the
folder of the album. I would love to somehow have a control device like
my Android tablet access that 'Art' directory to show the pages if I
want to read the booklet. Should not be difficult I would guess? I don't
see how this can be done at present. For me, something simple like this
would go a good ways towards matching the CD at least (even without more
fancy hyperlinks, lyric retrieval...); a convenient way to see and read
the booklet integrated into the control UI device that I've scanned in
already.

One of muso's features is that one can view the jpgs and pdfs that are
located in the album folder, either within the album folder or a "scans"
subfolder. To do something similar using a tablet one needs to have a
program that can access and read the album folder on the computer
running LMS. Of course Squeeze Commander, Orange Squeeze (another
android controller app) or iPeng (an iOS controller app) and the file
reader program would not be linked so one would have to know the exact
location of the album folder in order to view the contents. Either way
no hyperlinks :(



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
One of muso's features is that one can view the jpgs and pdfs that are
located in the album folder, either within the album folder or a "scans"
subfolder. To do something similar using a tablet one needs to have a
program that can access and read the album folder on the computer
running LMS. Of course Squeeze Commander, Orange Squeeze (another
android controller app) or iPeng (an iOS controller app) and the file
reader program would not be linked so one would have to know the exact
location of the album folder in order to view the contents. Either way
no hyperlinks :(

One way I can see this working is on an app like Squeeze Commander,
there's already a "Music Folder" option to explore where the music is.
We can already traverse the directory tree and go into the directories.
I can already see the "Art" folders but the program will not "see" the
JPEGs.

Suppose when we play a song, if the app has a link to the source
directory so I can just click on the JPEG art to see them... That would
be a simple way to do it? Would LMS allow the tablet app to show JPEGs?



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Suppose when we play a song, if the app has a link to the source
directory so I can just click on the JPEG art to see them... That would
be a simple way to do it? Would LMS allow the tablet app to show JPEGs?

This is exactly how muso works.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
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[Julf]

Post by paulster
This is a great example of a record company really getting it wrong

And for an example of a company really getting it wrong, how about Neil
Young and his Pono claiming that dynamic compression and the loudness
wars are caused by mp3?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Daverz]

You can't compress the crap out of vinyl

Of course the you can compress the crap out of the digital master and
cut that. Having vinyl as the medium doesn't guarantee that excessive
digital compression hasn't been used somewhere in the production chain.

If we're talking about pre-digital records, then, yeah, they could only
use analog compression in those days.


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[d6jg]

I have two turntables - one in the Living Room and one in my Office - I
am in the process of digitising my mainly 70s vinyl collection into
FLAC. I have no idea when I will finish and still buy the odd vinyl.
In the office I stick an album on, click record in VinylStudio and carry
on working on the same PC (two monitors). It is a less than five minute
job at the end to split the tracks and add metadata and album art. I use
a Behringer USB mixer in a non mixing mode which allows very quick
switching between source and playback.
I wouldn't say that either of my turntables are particularly high end
although the office one was very highly regarded in its day as being the
best entry level belt drive turntable then around (Trio KD1033B).
I have found that the biggest factor on the digitising process (apart
from the condition of the vinyl) is the cartridge/stylus and I have
upgraded (?) to modern Ortofon 2M Red on both turntables fairly
recently.
In -some - cases the results are such that you can only tell which FLAC
is vinyl ripped and which is CD ripped by listening on headphones. In
others its obvious it was a vinyl rip. When the vinyl condition is
simply not good enough to digitise I will buy the CD.
Like others I do wish there was a better way to handle the artwork as
there is no substitute for a decent LP cover. In fact I have coffee
table style books about them as I suspect a lot of us do.



*Vortexbox LMS 7.8 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* -
iThingys/iPeng/Tablets
*Living Room* - SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 connected Digitally - > Celestion
Ditton F20s - and connected Analogue for Zone 2 -> Sony TA FE 320 ->
Sennheiser RS 130
*Office* - SB3 -> Sony TA FE320 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
*Dining Room* -> SB Boom
*Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
*Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch -> Topping TP21 -> AKG Headphones
*Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) -> Topping TP20 ->
Wharfedale Modus Cubes
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[pablolie]

i started the very arduous process of scanning covers and booklets in
high quality, both for CDs and LPs. to this day i am shocked that some
people don't complain about a $10 download often not including a PDF.

i wonder if it's legal to start a public library of art cover and
booklets, or if music companies would come after it.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity
M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e
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[ralphpnj]

Post by pablolie
i started the very arduous process of scanning covers and booklets in
high quality, both for CDs and LPs. to this day i am shocked that some
people don't complain about a $10 download often not including a PDF.
i wonder if it's legal to start a public library of art cover and
booklets, or if music companies would come after it. i mean, it's great
to learn new stuff as you listen to a recording by reading the history
of the songs and such, as in the attached. but putting it together for a
few hundred CDs that deserve it is a LOT of work...

Lots of cover art can be found just by doing a simple google or bing
image search.

And thanks for the lovely pdf of the Joe Henderson CD. I have this CD
ripped into my music library but without the booklet and now, thanks to
you, I have a beautiful pdf of the booklet.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[pablolie]

Post by ralphpnj
Lots of cover art can be found just by doing a simple google or bing
image search.
And thanks for the lovely pdf of the Joe Henderson CD. I have this CD
ripped into my music library but without the booklet and now, thanks to
you, I have a beautiful pdf of the booklet.

my pleasure - i shall find a way to share the rest. cover art and
booklets are a gateway to find more music you love - by knowing
composers, musicians, producers... by reading the cover in a record
store i used to find related music, a method that seldom failed... i
don't want to outsource that to a music service.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity
M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e
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[ralphpnj]

Post by pablolie
my pleasure - i shall find a way to share the rest. cover art and
booklets are a gateway to find more music you love - by knowing
composers, musicians, producers... by reading the cover in a record
store i used to find related music, a method that seldom failed... i
don't want to outsource that to a music service.

Daddy, what's a "record store"?



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[atrocity]

Post by pablolie
i wonder if it's legal to start a public library of art cover and
booklets, or if music companies would come after it.

http://www.albumartexchange.com - just covers and no booklets, though.


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[Wirrunna]

Post by pablolie
i started the very arduous process of scanning covers and booklets in
high quality, both for CDs and LPs. to this day i am shocked that some
people don't complain about a $10 download often not including a PDF.
i wonder if it's legal to start a public library of art cover and
booklets, or if music companies would come after it. i mean, it's great
to learn new stuff as you listen to a recording by reading the history
of the songs and such, as in the attached. but putting it together for a
few hundred CDs that deserve it is a LOT of work...

pablolie, have you checked out discogs -
http://www.discogs.com/Joe-Henderson-Lush-Life-The-Music-Of-Billy-Strayhorn/release/1741973
- below the album cover is a link to "more images", it may save you some
time on other CDs.

I regularly check discogs for back covers and booklets and save them for
viewing as local artwork with the Music and Artist info plugin. Works
really well on a tablet (Orange Squeeze).

I'm sure that Discogs allows updating of images, although there is no
mention of that on the linked release.



A camel is a racehorse designed by a committee.
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[Daverz]

I started collecting records as a kid in about 1975, and only started
collecting CDs about 1987. CDs were a godsend for classical music --
particularly large symphony works with a large dynamic range -- because
you didn't have to worry about the surface noise inevitably accumulate
no matter how well you cared for your records. Listening to the quiet
parts of a Mahler symphony could feel like falling into a snow drift of
vinyl surface noise. The playback equipment I had in the 90s was only
OK (two different B&O tables), but even with the pretty good playback
equipment I have now (Michell Gyro SE with an SME 309 arm) and a record
cleaning machine, I don't feel that records sound better than CDs except
in cases where the analog transfer was botched.


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[Mnyb]

I do think it's a bit of a culture/future shock when cd was released .
We where simply used to how the vinyl sounded and vinyl is not really
the same as good analog ( reel to,reel tape is ) . And maybe just maybe
there was something to " digital ready " after al ;) some equipment
migth not have been able to handle it .

The following would be interesting to do .

Pop in some really old cd in your current system does it still sound
horrible .

Dig up some really old CD player conect it to your current system does
it still sounds as bad as remembered .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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[cliveb]

Post by Mnyb
The following would be interesting to do .
Pop in some really old cd in your current system does it still sound
horrible .

Early CDs did not sound universally bad. One of the first CDs I bought
was Pictures at an Exhibition on Telarc (Cleveland Orchestra, Maazel).
It sounded fabulous back in the 1980s and still sounds fabulous today.

Post by Mnyb
Dig up some really old CD player conect it to your current system does
it still sounds as bad as remembered .

My first CD player was a Philips 104 - which I believe was only a 14 bit
machine. I don't still have it, but seem to recall that it sounded just
fine. Perhaps a little relaxed and laid back, but very enjoyable
nonetheless.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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[Daverz]

Post by Mnyb
Pop in some really old cd in your current system does it still sound
horrible .
Dig up some really old CD player conect it to your current system does
it still sounds as bad as remembered .

There were definitely some really awful early digital recordings. Some
of the DDD recordings Karajan made, for example. Levine's Mahler 9 on
RCA is another example. There are recordings from the 1930s that I find
more listenable as recordings.


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[Mnyb]

Post by cliveb
Early CDs did not sound universally bad. One of the first CDs I bought
was Pictures at an Exhibition on Telarc (Cleveland Orchestra, Maazel).
It sounded fabulous back in the 1980s and still sounds fabulous today.
My first CD player was a Philips 104 - which I believe was only a 14 bit
machine. I don't still have it, but seem to recall that it sounded just
fine. Perhaps a little relaxed and laid back, but very enjoyable
nonetheless.
There were definitely some really awful early digital recordings. Some
of the DDD recordings Karajan made, for example. Levine's Mahler 9 on
RCA is another example. There are recordings from the 1930s that I find
more listenable as recordings.

Much as it is now then some truly horrible recordings some very good .

But to your pleasure I think the classical recording engineer have
mastered the technology !

We with other musical tastes suffer more but for other reasons .

Do you also think that the idea that all this was because "early digital
was bad" is an oversimplification ? I think so .
Sure it it was limited but so was the analog euipment it replaced ?
It must been some great relearning in the recording industry in the
early days .

I do wonder when dither became commonplace in professional AD conversion
and if there was real improvements to be heard ?

Was it not Sony and 3M that pioneered some early 14bit recording
equipment that actually camps to be used in some comercial recordings
wonder how these recordings fare .

I suspect ( partly knows ) that a studio can be a real lash up job :)
money and time , I don't think they suddenly throw out everything and
started fresh ? Wonder how long it took for the modern workflow to
emerge ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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Bedroom/Office: Boom
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Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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[philippe_44]

Unfortunately much more than they do really know, I agree :) ... and
this is what enjoyment should never be: rationalized. Try, experience
and the 'good' thing is what you like, at the end



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[Mnyb]

Post by philippe_44
Unfortunately much more than they do really know, I agree :) ... and
this is what enjoyment should never be: rationalized. Try, experience
and the 'good' thing is what you like, at the end

Yes ofcourse ,but it helps to realize that a CD as container is a good
enough fit for most recordings ever done and a good enogh fit for our
hearing ablities . Then you don't have to fuzz about that and start
finding good performances to enjoy .

I totally get vinyl as hobby :) there is a lot of things youll never see
in any digital format and it's fun . Dont get it confused with good
sound reproduction in general , but do get yourself a decent vinyl rig
if that what you want to get the best from those records .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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[Julf]

Post by philippe_44
this is what enjoyment should never be: rationalized. Try, experience
and the 'good' thing is what you like, at the end

Indeed. No need to try to rationalize it with pseudoscience, voodoo and
mumbo-jumbo.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

Post by Julf
Indeed. No need to try to rationalize it with pseudoscience, voodoo and
mumbo-jumbo.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Squeezemenicely]

Post by usc95
I found the following article an interesting read and thought some of

Thanks so much, what a great and interesting article!

I believe the trouble with CDs being seen as a minor product, with harsh
and cold sound, comes from the very first (affordable) CDplayers and
later CD Walkmans sold, plus inferior analog to digital transfers or
early digital recordings.

Millions of years ago I had a Philips CD player, it was great not having
scratches or having to turn the record in the middle of a classical
music piece - but there was someting cold. As time progressed I got
different CDplayers, shopping around I was fascinated how different they
could sound, some still pretty harsh others warmer. The DACs in the
players got better. Later again, I bought an extra DAC for my digital
music needs, music has never sounded this good at my home. Clean, but
warm and exciting, no fatigue. Early digital recordings also sound very
harsh and cold, therfore well remastered analogue recordings can often
sound a lot better than those digital recordings from the 80s.

Remember in the early days we were told CDs were indestructable, so they
were often scratched and treated badly and still popped into a CDplayer
and using error correction music came out. So bad first CDs plus
medeocre players with early DACs built in to them, sort of made up the
minds of people, that CDs were practical but cold and even irritating.

Never has it been so easy and cheap to get great sound at home as it is
today. Just think of our Rasbberry Pi with a DAC card- what comes out of
that litte device is better than many turntable setups costing
tremendous amounts.
I am pretty sure the Pi even matches - if not surpasses the Pogo, but
have never heard one and probably never will.

Vinyl to us older folks who have been there the first time they arrived
are just a sort of an emotional thing of the past and they have great
covers and booklets (That are easier to read as age progresses and sight
diminishes)

To young folks it is probably, being different and actually getting
something for your money. Many of the young generation have never bought
or collected CDs or digital music, so getting vinyl gives the them a
good feeling.



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Synology DS-410j NAS
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PicorePlayer
Schiit - BIFROST Dac
Spotify Premium
iPhone: iPeng - iPad: Squeezepad, iPengHD
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