Discussion:
Anomalies in Beck's "Morning Phase"...
Archimago
2014-03-03 03:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the tip Wombat.

It appears that there's more of an issue with "Morning Phase" than I
originally thought beyond DR6!

http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/03/follow-up-anomalies-in-becks-morning.html

Sad... Really...



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Mnyb
2014-03-03 06:55:46 UTC
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Yea get the CD version , I'm listening to it I do like beck ,but I have
not come to any conclusion to if/how good it is yet.



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ralphpnj
2014-03-03 16:26:26 UTC
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Seriously, HDTracks... Do you guys ever look at these files for quality
control purposes before declaring the album fit for high-resolution and
charging folks $18USD? I know you claim to just sell what the label
gives you, but isn't it a bit disingenuous to be calling much of this
album "Audiophile 96kHz/24bit"?
There is one simple fix for HDTracks to resolve this whole mess:

HDTracks should just convert the 24/96 PCM tracks to DSD!

Once everything is convert to DSD is it, by default, Audiophile quality
- regardless of what any stupid graphs might show :)



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Archimago
2014-03-03 20:52:13 UTC
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Post by ralphpnj
HDTracks should just convert the 24/96 PCM tracks to DSD!
Once everything is convert to DSD is it, by default, Audiophile quality
- regardless of what any stupid graphs might show :)
Nice one... Alas, that's not good enough.

You must run it through a *TUBE* DAC, then ANALOGUE TAPE, then ANALOGUE
CONSOLE, then a Meitner DSD ADC. Furthermore, you must ensure that this
is all Cardas / Nordost cabling. The process must further be supervised
by Cookie Marenco herself.

ONLY THEN is it truly "ripened" enough for audiophile tastes...
:rolleyes:



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ralphpnj
2014-03-03 21:41:39 UTC
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Post by Archimago
Nice one... Alas, that's not good enough.
You must run it through a *TUBE* DAC, then ANALOGUE TAPE, then ANALOGUE
CONSOLE, then a Meitner DSD ADC. Furthermore, you must ensure that this
is all Cardas / Nordost cabling. The process must further be supervised
by Cookie Marenco herself.
ONLY THEN is it truly "ripened" enough for audiophile tastes...
I believe that you almost have it but there are still two things
missing:

First you must copy the PCM files onto a Mac Mini then you must run it
through a *TUBE* DAC with asynchronous USB, then ANALOGUE TAPE, then
ANALOGUE CONSOLE, then a Meitner DSD ADC and then back to the Mac Mini
via asynchronous USB. Furthermore, you must ensure that this is all
Cardas / Nordost cabling.

Now I think that we have all the latest audiophile buzzwords covered!



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Daverz
2014-03-03 22:08:05 UTC
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Thought he was better with the Yardbirds anyway.


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callesoroe
2014-10-08 08:24:24 UTC
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Post by Daverz
Thought he was better with the Yardbirds anyway.
This is NOT Jeff Beck ;)



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Archimago
2014-03-03 23:22:57 UTC
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Post by ralphpnj
I believe that you almost have it but there are still two things
First you must copy the PCM files onto a Mac Mini then you must run it
through a *TUBE* DAC with asynchronous USB, then ANALOGUE TAPE, then
ANALOGUE CONSOLE, then a Meitner DSD ADC and then back to the Mac Mini
via asynchronous USB. Furthermore, you must ensure that this is all
Cardas / Nordost cabling.
Now I think that we have all the latest audiophile buzzwords covered!
Oi. Don't you dare forget COOKIE. Never forget COOKIE.

;)



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ralphpnj
2014-03-03 23:42:56 UTC
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Post by Archimago
Oi. Don't you dare forget COOKIE. Never forget COOKIE.
;)
mea culpa!



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Wombat
2014-03-06 02:06:35 UTC
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I have some other view meanwhile. I doubt it is bad what happened here.
Beck may have collected this music over a while and gave it for
mastering.
I have no doubt this material is mixed at 24/96 and so this is a valid
"Studio Master" - people ask for it, people get it.

I think there are much bigger rip-offs the other way around when the
versions that sell as Studio Master sound different to the 16/44.1
version by purpose.



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ralphpnj
2014-03-12 20:29:06 UTC
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There's a new clown in town:

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/stop-nonsense-bob-ludwig-true-numbers-behind-becks-imorning-phasei-album

Seems that once the bullets start flying everyone just circles the
wagons. I guess Ludwig's willingness to stretch the truth just means
that the clowns at the various high end audio magazines will now elevate
him to GOD status. Way to go big Bob!



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Archimago
2014-03-13 02:58:10 UTC
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The moral of this story is quite simple: if there is no penalty for
lying then why bother to tell the truth.
*That* is the truth.

What a joke... If Ludwig is to be believed that he mixed everything in
24/96, then he must have received *ALL* MP3-encoded masters for those 2
tracks. As I noted, that spectrum looks like 192kbps (and optimistically
256kbps) spectra. Seriously, there's no excuse for what the audio signal
look like. It's not necessarily about how it sounds either but rather
the fact that a poor resolution album is being sold at a prime price
with claims of high-resolution.

Forget the vinyl / analogue sound... Maybe Beck is so forward thinking
that he specifically called Ludwig and wanted those songs to have the
"MP3 sound" :)



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Daverz
2014-03-13 09:54:32 UTC
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From what I've read up to now, the RBCD should be perfectly adequate. I
can pay HDTracks to get an upsampled version, or I can have my DAC do it
for me. Just ordered the RBCD from Amazon Marketplace. Under $10,
including shipping.


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ralphpnj
2014-03-13 10:01:51 UTC
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From what I've read up to now, the RBCD should be perfectly adequate. I
can pay HDTracks to get an upsampled version, or I can have my DAC do it
for me. Just ordered the RBCD from Amazon Marketplace. Under $10,
including shipping.
To paraphrase: From what I've read up to now, a free download should be
perfectly adequate and justly deserved."



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Daverz
2014-03-20 11:10:53 UTC
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Got my RBCD copy. It is very compressed sounding to my ears.
Everything is at the same volume level. Other words that come to mind
are flat, processed, and hashy. All this works against the ambience
that the music seemts to be trying to create. It's nice music, but I
think a release like this would have sounded much better 40 years ago.


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Archimago
2014-03-20 15:38:54 UTC
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Post by Daverz
Got my RBCD copy. It is very compressed sounding to my ears.
Everything is at the same volume level. Other words that come to mind
are flat, processed, and hashy. All this works against the ambience
that the music seems to be trying to create. It's nice music, but I
think a release like this would have sounded much better 40 years ago.
40 years ago would have been about "Dark Side Of The Moon" (1973).

Clearly those old tapes have provided us with excellent quality
remasters over the years. In time, if "Morning Phase" ever were to be
reissued, I wonder just how much improvement could be had from those
master digital files? And will it always look like ruined lossy audio in
those 2 tracks?



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Julf
2014-03-20 16:23:58 UTC
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Post by Archimago
40 years ago would have been about "Dark Side Of The Moon" (1973).
Clearly those old tapes have provided us with excellent quality
remasters over the years. In time, if "Morning Phase" ever were to be
reissued, I wonder just how much improvement could be had from those
master digital files? And will it always look like ruined lossy audio in
those 2 tracks?
Well, 30 years ago would have been "Brothers in Arms" by Dire Straits.
Recorded in digital - hasn't stopped us from getting a bunch of
re-issues and "remasters". :)



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fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Daverz
2014-03-20 17:33:14 UTC
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Post by Julf
Well, 30 years ago would have been "Brothers in Arms" by Dire Straits.
Recorded in digital - hasn't stopped us from getting a bunch of
re-issues and "remasters". :)
I think some judicious digital filtering could make early digital more
listenable. Remastering from the mix tapes may also help.


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Wombat
2014-10-02 15:53:01 UTC
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Post by ralphpnj
HDTracks should just convert the 24/96 PCM tracks to DSD!
Once everything is convert to DSD is it, by default, Audiophile quality
- regardless of what any stupid graphs might show :)
Beck and business fellows seems to pull all excisting registers. Must be
well fitting his profit-oriented believe system.
I don't find his music anything special but stumbled across that weird
release.
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=beck&album=mutations
http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/99966/Beck-Mutations-DSD
How can Acousticsounds.com sell a 192kHz version that clips in every
song?
Acousticsounds.com also sells a DSD version of obviously the same
master.
I bet the higher DR for the DSD is only the DR meter misinterpreting
added garbage of a PCM -> DSD conversion.
This is really beyound being fun.



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Archimago
2014-10-04 04:36:43 UTC
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Post by Wombat
Beck and business fellows seems to pull all excisting registers. Must be
well fitting his profit-oriented believe system.
I don't find his music anything special but stumbled across that weird
release.
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=beck&album=mutations
http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/99966/Beck-Mutations-DSD
How can Acousticsounds.com sell a 192kHz and DSD version the same time
as master and it even clips in every song?
I bet the higher DR for the DSD is only the DR meter misinterpreting
added garbage of a PCM -> DSD conversion.
This is really beyound being fun.
That 'promo' version with DR11 looks interesting.

I wonder what it would take in terms of licensing for an audiophile
outfit like Acoustic Sounds to get that version instead to sell...



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Wombat
2014-10-04 11:35:17 UTC
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BTW: looks like the single reviewer liked the soundstage on the DSD
version :-) - "The soundstage is the deepest I've ever heard on any
recording I've tried. "
Like ralphpnj already suspected! The music must have been purified on
its way from PCM to DSD



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ralphpnj
2014-10-04 11:50:14 UTC
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Post by Archimago
That 'promo' version with DR11 looks interesting.
I wonder what it would take in terms of licensing for an audiophile
outfit like Acoustic Sounds to get that version instead to sell...
That question has a super easy answer: just have one of the many clowns
who edit and write for the various high end audio publications write one
of their typical gushing reviews of the 'promo', you know the kind of
review filled with all those standard and utterly worthless audio
phrases, like "a veil has been lifted", "tremendous pace", etc., and the
demand from the sheep, oops I meant, audiophiles will soon be
overwhelming.



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Archimago
2014-10-04 15:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Oi. Sadly they didn't even bother to hunt down the 'promo' from the look
of these DR numbers. Of course it'd be interesting to hear if the promo
actually did sound better if anyone has a copy!



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pablolie
2014-10-04 16:09:05 UTC
Permalink
.. She winced as the cable bit deeper into her flesh. He seethed "You
stupid cow, keep still behind the stereo rack and switch the XLR
connectors without making such a fuss. It's impossible to conduct an A-B
test with you! .."

I am a bit amused that the topic quickly turned into universal
condemnation of HiRez tracks established via a lab measurement... and
not by a listening test. :-) Does that partially imply that -rationally-
we should all be perfectly happy with an iPhone and a par of good
earbuds and some well recorded 256k VBR music?? :-D One could make the
point given the fact the person interpreting the files states (somewhat
carefully) that at 320k he probably wouldn't have been sure if he
measured a roll-off.

Typically I say, let people do what they do and feed their own
psycho-acoustic preferences. If it makes them happy, let 'em stack up
100ks worth of equipment and some voodoo unobtanium-enriched
super-conductor cabling and hey, it's no beef of mine. People ought to
chill and let each other chill. Then again, I have seen a guy storm off
in disgust when he lost a gentleman's bet about his 450k system not
sounding better -in fact, consensus was worse- than another gentleman's
25k system, to never be seen in the same wine bar again.

On this HiRez thing, in general I don't see the point of 1960s analog
tapes supposedly being taken out of a vault after 50 years
(deterioration anyone?) and sampled at 48/384; when the studio originals
prolly barely merit 192k MP3. I mean, I worship Bill Evans' "Waltz for
Debby", and I *do* own a 320k MP3 rip from CD I made with my original,
painful conversion run in 2005-2007 using dbPoweramp when Allmusic's
database was patchy and you had to enter the entire info for many albums
manually. (BTW I also FLAC'd it, but could never tell the difference).
When it was offered online at 24/192 I went for the test. Sure, they
cranked up the loudness some. But not a nuance more detail, in fact I
seemed to prefer the original rip. The clinking glasses, the bass or
piano aren't an ounce clearer.

With that I am not saying I don't believe in some additional envelope
beyond the 16/44 commandment that was seemingly burned into clay tablet
in ancient times. But with some new recordings that are pristinely
recorded, if I can get a 20/44 or 24/88 hey I will get it. Perhaps one
magic day I'll tell myself I did hear the difference. :-)

In the end - I am glad we have the choice between the different formats.



...pablo
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SlimChances
2014-10-04 17:30:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by pablolie
Typically I say, let people do what they do and feed their own
psycho-acoustic preferences. If it makes them happy, let 'em stack up
100ks worth of equipment and some voodoo unobtanium-enriched
super-conductor cabling and hey, it's no beef of mine. People ought to
chill and let each other chill.
In the end - I am glad we have the choice between the different formats.
+1 ;0)



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ralphpnj
2014-10-05 15:19:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by pablolie
.. She winced as the cable bit deeper into her flesh. He seethed "You
stupid cow, keep still behind the stereo rack and switch the XLR
connectors without making such a fuss. It's impossible to conduct an A-B
test with you! .."
I am a bit amused that the topic quickly turned into universal
condemnation of HiRez tracks established via a lab measurement... and
not by a listening test. :-) Does that partially imply that -rationally-
we should all be perfectly happy with an iPhone and a par of good
earbuds and some well recorded 256k VBR music?? :-D One could make the
point given the fact the person interpreting the files states (somewhat
carefully) that at 320k he probably wouldn't have been sure if he
measured a roll-off.
Typically I say, let people do what they do and feed their own
psycho-acoustic preferences. If it makes them happy, let 'em stack up
100ks worth of equipment and some voodoo unobtanium-enriched
super-conductor cabling and hey, it's no beef of mine. People ought to
chill and let each other chill. Then again, I have seen a guy storm off
in disgust when he lost a gentleman's bet about his 450k system not
sounding better -in fact, consensus was worse- than another gentleman's
25k system, to never be seen in the same wine bar again.
On this HiRez thing, in general I don't see the point of 1960s analog
tapes supposedly being taken out of a vault after 50 years
(deterioration anyone?) and sampled at 48/384; when the studio originals
prolly barely merit 192k MP3. I mean, I worship Bill Evans' "Waltz for
Debby", and I *do* own a 320k MP3 rip from CD I made with my original,
painful conversion run in 2005-2007 using dbPoweramp when Allmusic's
database was patchy and you had to enter the entire info for many albums
manually. (BTW I also FLAC'd it, but could never tell the difference).
When it was offered online at 24/192 I went for the test. Sure, they
cranked up the loudness some. But not a nuance more detail, in fact I
seemed to prefer the original rip. The clinking glasses, the bass or
piano aren't an ounce clearer.
With that I am not saying I don't believe in some additional envelope
beyond the 16/44 commandment that was seemingly burned into clay tablet
in ancient times. But with some post-1995 recordings that are pristinely
recorded, if I can get a 20/44 or 24/88 hey I will get it. Perhaps one
magic day I'll tell myself I did hear the difference. :-) (And what a
shame for some of the original DDD recordings, the harsh tiring nature
will be there forever).
In the end - I am glad we have the choice between the different formats.
I agree with almost everything you so nicely stated except that in your
statement:

"Typically I say, let people do what they do and feed their own
psycho-acoustic preferences. If it makes them happy, let 'em stack up
100ks worth of equipment and some voodoo unobtanium-enriched
super-conductor cabling and hey, it's no beef of mine. People ought to
chill and let each other chill."

What if the "people" are just ordinary people, such as friends or
relatives, but paid reviewers of audio equipment spouting off something
that runs completely counter to proven scientific facts? And the sole
purpose of their writing is to instill FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt)
in the mind of the reader?

Well then I take issue with that writer's motives and call BS on their
"observations".

However if the "people" in your statement are just ordinary people then
I try to present the facts which show that what they think are hearing
cannot be so and hope that they will see the error of their way.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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& Energy sub
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pablolie
2014-10-05 15:49:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
...
What if the "people" are just ordinary people, such as friends or
relatives, but paid reviewers of audio equipment spouting off something
that runs completely counter to proven scientific facts? And the sole
purpose of their writing is to instill FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt)
in the mind of the reader?
Well then I take issue with that writer's motives and call BS on their
"observations".
Writers are no different than people. They *always* have an opinion,
it's only in the best case when they make an honest effort to dig up
facts reflecting both sides, and proceed to explain how they form their
opinion. They may be utterly ignorant or biased on the issue they write
about. I come to the conclusion every time I read some of the articles
in the "Opinion" section of the WSJ. :-)

Especially in this age where everybody and their senile dog can publish
& blog, we all know that just because someone wrote something doesn't
make them an expert we should automatically respect. I don't think many
of my friends would go plop down $6k on cables because they read how
great they sound in some obscure online publication.

As far as HD music goes, I think we all know that it's all about
Nyquist. The higher the sampling rate, the higher the frequency range
that can be recovered. Mathematically indisputable. So HD Music *is*
better, if by better we define more accurate. Just because our hearing
cuts it off doesn't mean there aren't frequencies outside the 20-20k
range (once when we were new borns :-D). The first question is, and will
always be... given the limits of our hearing, does it matter? And the
second one, which this topic raised, isn't even a question, but a fact:
if the original isn't HD, for heaven's sake, don't upsample it and try
to sell it as an HD track... but when a buck can be made, someone will
always be there to exploit the niche...



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
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ralphpnj
2014-10-05 16:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by pablolie
Writers are no different than people. They *always* have an opinion,
it's only in the best case when they make an honest effort to dig up
facts reflecting both sides, and proceed to explain how they form their
opinion. They may be utterly ignorant or biased on the issue they write
about. I come to the conclusion every time I read some of the articles
in the "Opinion" section of the WSJ. :-)
Especially in this age where everybody and their senile dog can publish
& blog, we all know that just because someone wrote something doesn't
make them an expert we should automatically respect. I don't think many
of my friends would go plop down $6k on cables because they read how
great they sound in some obscure online publication.
As far as HD music goes, I think we all know that it's all about
Nyquist. The higher the sampling rate, the higher the frequency range
that can be recovered. Mathematically indisputable. So HD Music *is*
better, if by better we define more accurate. Just because our hearing
cuts it off doesn't mean there aren't frequencies outside the 20-20k
range (once when we were new borns :-D). The first question is, and will
always be... given the limits of our hearing, does it matter? And the
if the original isn't HD, for heaven's sake, don't upsample it and try
to sell it as an HD track... but when a buck can be made, someone will
always be there to exploit the niche...
Once again you make some well stated and excellent points.

My issue with, what you correctly stated, are just simple "opinions" is
that these "opinions" are all too often presented as FACTS. For example
my all time favorite audiophile misstatement of "opinion" as fact is the
all the nonsense surrounding high end USB (and other digital) cables.
All properly functioning USB cables that meet or exceed specifications
sound the same and this can be proven both by science and any well run
double blind test.

But as you said: "but when a buck can be made, someone will always be
there to exploit the niche..."



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
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callesoroe
2014-10-07 14:53:12 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the tip folks!
It appears that there's more of an issue with "Morning Phase" than I
originally thought beyond DR6!
'Anomalies In Beck's \"Morning Phase\" (HDTracks 24/96)'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/03/follow-up-anomalies-in-becks-morning.html)
Unfortunate... Really...
Album sounds awsome with Wimp-hifi FLAC streaming :)



Callesoroe
Living room: Transporter, Tact RCS 2.2X digital preamp, Martin Logan
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ralphpnj
2014-10-07 15:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by callesoroe
Album sounds awsome with Wimp-hifi FLAC streaming :)
Glad to see that at least someone isn't obsessing over the sound, which
they find "awesome", and is enjoying the music.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
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pablolie
2014-10-08 02:01:05 UTC
Permalink
... and is enjoying the music.
*like*. Most vital and important.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
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KEF LS50
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Archimago
2014-10-08 03:35:20 UTC
Permalink
Good points folks. Ultimately it is about being able to enjoy the final
product.

However, speaking of "final product", let's go back to the item about
Beck's "Mutations" album. A blog reader sent me copies of one of the
tracks "Nobody's Fault But My Own":

DR11 Promo:
16466

DR7 CD:
16467

It's clear with listening that the "promo" is better. More nuanced,
spacious, no distortion with the loud parts. There's a sitar-like
instrument throughout that just seems more "resonant" and real.

If I were a Beck fan, I guess I could enjoy the standard CD... However,
given the choice, personally, that promo does sound better and I think I
would be unhappy paying a premium over the $10 Amazon price for the CD -
especially buying from some site calling itself "SuperHiRez" and without
the ability to sell the CD off one day if I don't want it any more.

As with all purchases, caveat emptor. However with the power of
communications at our disposal, I do believe it is good for 'us' to
express concerns when questions arise around honesty, integrity, and to
express truth. I certainly hope those who put time into good research
and development be rewarded and those who are out to "make a buck" with
unsubstantiated claims discredited.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: Regular.png |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16467|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


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callesoroe
2014-10-08 07:48:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
Good points folks. Ultimately it is about being able to enjoy the final
product.
However, speaking of "final product", let's go back to the item about
Beck's "Mutations" album. A blog reader sent me copies of one of the
16466
16467
It's clear with listening that the "promo" is better. More nuanced,
spacious, no distortion with the loud parts. There's a sitar-like
instrument throughout that just seems more "resonant" and real.
If I were a Beck fan, I guess I could enjoy the standard CD... However,
given the choice, personally, that promo does sound better and I think I
would be unhappy paying a premium over the $10 Amazon price for the CD -
especially buying from some site calling itself "SuperHiRez" and without
the ability to sell the CD off one day if I don't want it any more.
As with all purchases, -caveat emptor-. However with the power of
communications at our disposal, I do believe it is good for 'us' to
express concerns when questions arise around honesty, integrity, and to
express truth. I certainly hope those who put time into good research
and development be rewarded and those who are out to "make a buck" with
unsubstantiated claims discredited.
One would hope that the audiophile press could function as the
independent reviewer capable of critical thought and is able to discern
what piece of equipment truly "raises the bar" or would boldly declare
when an album is clearly too compressed and just plain sounds bad.
Although there are exceptions, I feel that they have failed in this
function of the "free" press over the years that I have been interested
in this hobby...
The album is very loud mixed. But I turn on replay gain, and external
streaming from Wimp-hifi is set to -7 .
And while this is 16 bit it does not affect soundquality, as sb is
working as a 24 bit system. Most important with this is that you prevent
clipping comming to your DAC(my case Transporter). And when playing the
album with the -7, it really sounds good.... :)
I really like the feature, that you can turn down the loud albums.....
The DR numbers really don't say very much about the soundquality. I have
albums with low numbers that sounds better than albums with high
numbers.
So it is really just a number..... But it confirms the loudness war. No
doubt there.
But i am happy to have the feature to turn the loud albums down, and
just enjoy the music.
This album is good example for that.



Callesoroe
Living room: Transporter, Tact RCS 2.2X digital preamp, Martin Logan
Vista speakers, AMPS(Icepower): Acoustic Reality Ear Enigma
PLUS(PANELS), Acoustic Reality Ear TWO MKII(Bas)
Kitchen: Transporter, Prodipe Pro 5 active bi-amp speakers. Bedroom:
Receiver+UE boombox, Kids: Receiver+Active speakers, WIMP-HIFI flac
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ralphpnj
2014-10-08 10:49:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by callesoroe
The album is very loud mixed. But I turn on replay gain, and external
streaming from Wimp-hifi is set to -7 .
And while this is 16 bit it does not affect soundquality, as sb is
working as a 24 bit system. Most important with this is that you prevent
clipping comming to your DAC(my case Transporter). And when playing the
album with the -7, it really sounds good.... :)
I really like the feature, that you can turn down the loud albums.....
The DR numbers really don't say very much about the soundquality. I have
albums with low numbers that sounds better than albums with high
numbers.
So it is really just a number..... But it confirms the loudness war. No
doubt there.
But i am happy to have the feature to turn the loud albums down, and
just enjoy the music.
This album is good example for that.
Turning down the volume on a dynamically compressed recording DOES NOT
remove the clipping produced in the compression process so it is not
"just a number".



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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Wombat
2014-10-08 11:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Thanks again Archimago for funny pictures!
One thing that drowns in this talk a bit is how the practise of selling
these releases in PCM and DSD is. There is NO explanation about what is
the real material delivered by the label to Acousticsounds.
Imagine they only convert the PCM to DSD with something like jriver and
sell it. Is this ok without claryfying? I doubt this.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
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Archimago
2014-10-09 15:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wombat
Thanks again Archimago for funny pictures!
One thing that drowns in this talk a bit is how the practise of selling
these releases in PCM and DSD is. There is NO explanation about what is
the real material delivered by the label to Acousticsounds.
Imagine they only convert the PCM to DSD with something like jriver and
sell it. Is this ok without claryfying? I doubt this.
When i buy High Bitrate stuff i make it a 16/44.1 myself for daily use.
I want the real source for that of course.
Given that Mutations came out in 1998, is a multitrack studio recording,
it's assured that we're dealing with a PCM recording unlikely 24/192
back then. So your concerns about the hi-res provenance is definitely
understandable for them selling a 24/192 copy... I certainly hope it
wasn't just a 44kHz file converted to DSD via JRiver! To call that
"hi-res" would be fraudulent I think!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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ralphpnj
2014-10-09 22:05:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
Given that Mutations came out in 1998, is a multitrack studio recording,
it's assured that we're dealing with a PCM recording unlikely 24/192
back then. So your concerns about the hi-res provenance is definitely
understandable for them selling a 24/192 copy... I certainly hope it
wasn't just a 44kHz file converted to DSD via JRiver! To call that
"hi-res" would be fraudulent I think!
"fraudulent" and high end audio - perish the thought! ;)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
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Wombat
2014-10-10 12:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
Given that Mutations came out in 1998, is a multitrack studio recording,
it's assured that we're dealing with a PCM recording unlikely 24/192
back then. So your concerns about the hi-res provenance is definitely
understandable for them selling a 24/192 copy... I certainly hope it
wasn't just a 44kHz file converted to DSD via JRiver! To call that
"hi-res" would be fraudulent I think!
We can only speculate how the original was mixed exactly. I believe in
1998 there surely where made mastertapes out of the mix with extended HF
content.
I am also pretty sure vendors like AS get a capture of that tape
delivered. What i highly doubt is that these captures are done 2 times,
one as DSD and one as PCM.
Since AS does not clarify anything about that case my understandingn is
they simply convert PCM themself and let some wackos explain how
beautiful the DSD version is.



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ralphpnj
2014-10-10 12:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wombat
We can only speculate how the original was mixed exactly. I believe in
1998 there surely where made mastertapes out of the mix with extended HF
content.
I am also pretty sure vendors like AS get a capture of that tape
delivered. What i highly doubt is that these captures are done 2 times,
one as DSD and one as PCM.
Since AS does not clarify anything about that case my understandingn is
they simply convert PCM themself and let some wackos explain how
beautiful the DSD version is.
The simple fact that "Morning Phase" is a multi-track recording mixed
down to two track stereo means that even if there was a DSD recording
made in 1998, which is highly unlikely since the first SACD did not come
out until 2001 and the those early SACDs were mostly original analog
recordings converted to DSD, the DSD data would have had to be converted
to (hopefully) high bit rate PCM for editing.

This is just another of the countless examples of the high end audio
industry, which includes manufacturers, vendors and the press, using FUD
to stir the pot and hopefully increase sales.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
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Archimago
2014-10-10 14:36:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wombat
We can only speculate how the original was mixed exactly. I believe in
1998 there surely where made mastertapes out of the mix with extended HF
content.
I am also pretty sure vendors like AS get a capture of that tape
delivered. What i highly doubt is that these captures are done 2 times,
one as DSD and one as PCM.
Since AS does not clarify anything about that case my understandingn is
they simply convert PCM themself and let some wackos explain how
beautiful the DSD version is.
I see very few hi-res music titles originating in 1998. A few I have
seen like Patricia Barber's "Modern Cool" and Sheryl Crow's "Globe
Sessions" are available in SACD for example. Neither of these appear to
have genuine high frequency extension beyond 24kHz.

I think the chances are good that at best, "Mutations" was recorded in
24/96 and even if mixed in analogue, the frequency extension is
basically analogue noise... DSD in 1998 would have been available to
mainly the classical folks like Telarc and Sony would have been doing
some conversions back then, but chance of Beck doing it in native DSD I
believe is nil. Furthermore, no way they would have been doing a
multitrack job in DSD even if parts were recorded in DSD.

Either way, chances are poor there's any justification for 24/192 or
DSD. I think I would even put some money down that this is upsampled
44/48kHz with analogue noise. Alas, I'm not enough of a Beck fan nor
want to give Acoustic Sounds any money to buy their offering to check it
out myself!



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darrenyeats
2014-10-08 12:43:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
Turning down the volume on a dynamically compressed recording DOES NOT
remove the clipping produced in the compression process so it is not
"just a number".
+1.

Some oversampling DACs lack "DSP headroom" and can create some extra
unnecessary distortion when they encounter brickwalled recordings. For
these DACs using some digital attenuation, in the Touch or inside the
DAC or indeed with replay gain, allows intersample peaks >0db to be
correctly rendered. But of course the main brickwall compression
remains. So as Ralph says, DR7 reduced by 4db is still DR7 but quieter,
not DR11. And if you're using any digital attenuation already in the
Touch or in the DAC, replay gain gives no further benefit - you just
need some attenuation -somewhere- (5db will do for all sane recordings).



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
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callesoroe
2014-10-08 12:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
Turning down the volume on a dynamically compressed recording DOES NOT
remove the clipping produced in the compression process so it is not
"just a number".
I fully aware of that...... But it can do something to the signal send
to your DAC. If replay gain is off, the "near clipping" indicator(on my
Tact) lights up all the time. It does not when you turn it Down.
What I mean by "just a number" is that a high DR number is NOT equal to
good soundquality. This is a big missunderstanding.....



Callesoroe
Living room: Transporter, Tact RCS 2.2X digital preamp, Martin Logan
Vista speakers, AMPS(Icepower): Acoustic Reality Ear Enigma
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ralphpnj
2014-10-08 13:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by callesoroe
I fully aware of that...... But it can do something to the signal send
to your DAC. If replay gain is off, the "near clipping" indicator(on my
Tact) lights up all the time. It does not when you turn it Down.
What I mean by "just a number" is that a high DR number is NOT equal to
good soundquality. This is a big missunderstanding.....
Quite true, however a low DR number usually means that the recording is
either dynamically compressed or has very little dynamic range (such as
live recording of a heavy metal band playing with all their amps turned
up to "11") which usually makes for a very unpleasant sounding
recording.

More to the point you are making, one could take something that was
originally very well recorded with plenty of dynamic range and then add
lots of dynamic range compression. What you would end up is a version of
the recording with most of the original detail but now sounding rather
lifeless, which is exactly what natural dynamic range imparts to a
recording. Now whether or not you consider a well recorded but heavily
compressed recording to have good sound quality is up to you. In my case
I say NO.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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