[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Devialet Phantom Speakers

[ralphpnj]

Any opinions or experience with the Devialet Phantom Speakers?

http://phantom.devialet.com/phantom/en/v3/?gclid=Cj0KEQjwx7u5BRC1lePz2biJpIYBEiQA-ZeDmvwiobcTUPD92875RS0NrAgVHt9YwqJGGcGxGsFGdfcaAg1G8P8HAQ

http://en.devialet.com/phantom/discover

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=devialet+phantom&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=71772381036&hvpos=1t2&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14956531803383119480&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_35m9rqyuew_e

Don't know if they can be made work with LMS but if they did then they
could really be a game changer. Active speakers done right?



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[Jeff07971]

Maybe interesting but expensive

Post by ralphpnj
Active speakers done right?

Absolutely not !

The decreasing bandwidth at increasing SPL's is just showing they are
using (too much) equalisation to try to overcome physical laws.
105 db using 3000 W Peak !!! Thats under 80db/w/m



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[ralphpnj]

Post by Jeff07971
Maybe interesting but expensive
Absolutely not !
The decreasing bandwidth at increasing SPL's is just showing they are
using (too much) equalisation to try to overcome physical laws.
105 db using 3000 W Peak !!! Thats under 80db/w/m

I'm a bit lost here, could you please put the db/w/m measurement in
context?

Your comment about using equalization to overcome physical laws makes me
think of smartphone, tablet, laptop and many bluetooth speakers which
use DSP, like the Devialet, to make their tiny speakers sound halfway
decent.



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[Mnyb]

Or velodyne subs , they also fight the laws of nature ,but in velodynes
case it works out rather OK as sub bass performance is so and so anyway
in normal speakers and subs ,to much distortion in most normal speakers
.

In this case they seems to use all thier tech know how to make a design
statement perform well in general why fight against the laws of physics
accepting that the speaker is going to of a certain size is the rigth
way IMHO .

Is it not the case that tweeters should be just slightly above ear level
when seated ? That's sets a natural size limit ,smaller you need stands
anyway the foot print in the room will be the same ( or you have the
speakers on gimballed wall mounts )

I would be prefer a slightly better compromise with the physics , you
can still build nice speakers with furniture quality look or some more
artful look , but super small is to much of a compromise .

Btw I've never heard them so I can't comment about them more than this
.

Btw2 my own active suffers a little bit from design over function , they
look like thier larger siblings , but really in this class they should
have been large stand mounted speakers on a short stand a bit deeper and
boxier , and yes they would not have looked as nice ( point in case the
centre speaker has the best midrange ).



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[cliveb]

Let me begin by saying I've not heard these Phantom speakers...

The speakers are clearly tiny. Unless someone has changed the laws of
physics, real bass at realistic levels requires that large volumes of
air be moved. The tiny drivers in the Phantom are clearly incapable of
moving sufficient air, even at exteme levels of excursion. So how can
the Phantom possibly achieve decent bass? The only solution that occurs
to me is that they use DSP to generate harmonics and rely on the brain's
tendency to fill in the missing fundamental. Which would basically mean
they are deliberately adding harmonic distortion, which seems at odds
with their "no distortion" claim. One might think of it as "cheating",
but I suppose if it works, then fair enough.



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[Jeff07971]

Post by ralphpnj
I'm a bit lost here, could you please put the db/w/m measurement in
context?
Your comment about using equalization to overcome physical laws makes me
think of smartphone, tablet, laptop and many bluetooth speakers which
use DSP, like the Devialet, to make their tiny speakers sound halfway
decent.
Your comment about using equalization to overcome physical laws makes me
think of smartphone, tablet, laptop and many bluetooth speakers which
use DSP, like the Devialet, to make their tiny speakers sound halfway
decent.

I don't think I've ever heard any of the above sound "halfway decent"

With the specs, Where to start !

The specs they have produced are odd, contradictory and point to the
problem.

"Uncover the richness of songs you have heard a thousand times in all
their amplitude, from sub bass at 16hz to ultra sharp sound at 25kHz
with no background noise, no saturation, no distortion, all that up to
3000 Watts and 105 Decibels of power."

"no background noise, no saturation, no distortion" thats the rules of
physics out of the window for a start !

They then state "ADH amplification Distortion: 0.001% | Saturation : 0 |
Background Noise : < 0,5dB SPL at 3m " so contradicting their first
statement

I'm dubious about "Background Noise : < 0,5dB SPL at 3m" cant be
bothered to do the calc but this would mean an incredibly quiet signal
path
No saturation, this means no limit to speaker excursion or amplifier
power, again this can be faked by automatic gain control but who really
wants a frequency and amplitude dependent compression in their speakers
?

With particular respect to LF output

All speakers produce distortion and saturate dsp (or any other eq)
cannot correct for distortion if the drivers have run out of excursion
if the cone is on its end stop no more compensation can work.

"16Hz to 25kHz ± 2dB at 82dB SPL" this says the LF speaker only has
enough excursion to produce 82db @ 16hz
The specs at higher spl's and the fact that the LF units will be hitting
the end stops mean that the bandwidth must be reduced at higher spl's
In fact an exploration of the white paper reveals this as "the drive
unit model" and "acoustic level tracking" oh and of course "The magic
wire " !!

There's far to much in the data that the engineer would raise and
eyebrow to "A new engineering that outperfoms all existing systems" is
my favourite, what is OUTPERFOMS ? :)

As to context of 80db/w/m my speakers are 93 db/w/m 49hz-20khz ie nearly
20 times more efficient (and speakers are really inefficient to start
with (especially hifi ones) )

I'd really like to see an audio distortion plot at various spl's

I seem to be turning this into a rant so I will stop, but this sort of
fluffery annoys me

In reality they may sound OK but an active speaker done right ? No



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[Jeff07971]

mnyb, Agree totally

cliveb, your speakers are probably closer to "An active speaker done
right"



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[cliveb]

Post by Jeff07971
"16Hz to 25kHz ± 2dB at 82dB SPL"

Ah - interesting. The threshold of hearing for a healthy human at 16Hz
is about 80dB SPL.
So it would appear that this speaker is able to deliver 16Hz at 2dB
above the threshold of hearing.
Why bother?



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[cliveb]

Because "16Hz to 25kHz ± 2dB" looks good in the marketing material?

I guess I should have elaboated on my "why bother?" comment.
In order to produce that output down at 16Hz is going to require
considerable power.
Since it's not actually going to be audible, that's just wasting a
shedload of power for no good reason.
If they had instead just EQ'd out the very low bass, they could have
used a much less powerful (ie. cheaper) amplification stage.

But I suppose for marketing purposes being able to say it has 3000W is
seen as a plus point.



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[Julf]

Post by cliveb
But I suppose for marketing purposes being able to say it has 3000W is
seen as a plus point.

Indeed. More is more.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Wow I'm away for day or so and this thread really took off! Thank you
everyone who responded and to those who answered my questions. This has
turned out to be a very informative discussion.

With respect to the Devialet speakers I like to think of them as "a shot
across the bow" by one high end manufacturer to other manufacturers, by
which I mean that if consumer audio is going to move forward with the
one box/active speaker model versus the multi-box/passive speaker model
then mistakes and misfires are going to happen. So while these Devialet
speaker may come up a little short at least they are out there and
creating some very interesting discussions,like this one.



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[Mnyb]

I personally have 3 brands of active speakers .

Meridian , a speaker with digital input and digital internal crossover
.

Fostex and ADAM , analog actives . An analog active is also a great leap
compared to passive speakers . The cross over is analog , there are
tricks aviable for a digital active .

The least interesting one would be what I call powered speakers
basically passive speakers with built in amp



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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
I personally have 3 brands of active speakers .
Meridian , a speaker with digital input and digital internal crossover
.
Fostex and ADAM , analog actives . An analog active is also a great leap
compared to passive speakers . The cross over is analog , there are
tricks aviable for a digital active .
The least interesting one would be what I call powered speakers
basically passive speakers with built in amp

I like the idea of a digital active speaker with a digital crossover and
individual DACs and amp for each driver. I believe that some
professional, aka studio, speakers that work as I described but I don't
know what company makes them.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
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[Julf]

Post by ralphpnj
I like the idea of a digital active speaker with a digital crossover and
individual DACs and amp for each driver. I believe that some
professional, aka studio, speakers that work as I described but I don't
know what company makes them.

Genelec.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[arnyk]

Post by Julf
Genelec.

JBL Pro


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[Lucmichaud]

Forget the tech talk. Just go and listen to them.

They may not be the absolute best speakers, but nothing under 10,000 $
comes close.

I heard them in Paris at their office with 24 bit files . I was
impressed.

I have Wilson Sacha 3 speakers. I would not change, but if I had no room
for them, I would get Phamtoms.

Luc


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[Julf]

I heard them in Paris at their office with 24 bit files.

I assume they would have sounded even better with 32 bit
files...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Archimago]

Post by Lucmichaud
Forget the tech talk. Just go and listen to them.
They may not be the absolute best speakers, but nothing under 10,000 $
comes close.
I heard them in Paris at their office with 24 bit files . I was
impressed.
I have Wilson Sacha 3 speakers. I would not change, but if I had no room
for them, I would get Phamtoms.
Luc

I have heard them twice already. Agree they sound good. But *nothing*
under 10k sounds close!? That's a pretty bold statement that I'm sure
many would disagree with :-).

personally think they look pretty ugly to me plus the wife would have
issues. A no go no matter how they sound!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[pablolie]

I have listened to it.

Given the novelty of the design, I was skeptical, but I must admit it
sounded great. Not groundbreaking in any way, just clean and articulate
(I am not sure about the staging with classical music, seemed a bit
diffuse to me). I didn't get to pick any of the music.

So I am not against it in any way, but on the other hand it didn't make
me reconsider anything, other than the fact I'd have no idea how to set
it up at my place. :-)



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[arnyk]

Post by ralphpnj
I'm a bit lost here, could you please put the db/w/m measurement in
context?

90 dB/W is typical of the efficiency of a typical home audio speaker.
100 dB/W would be more appropriate for the large horn-loaded speakers
used for sound reinforcement. 80 dB/W speakers are very inefficient.

Post by ralphpnj
Your comment about using equalization to overcome physical laws makes me
think of smartphone, tablet, laptop and many bluetooth speakers which
use DSP, like the Devialet, to make their tiny speakers sound halfway
decent.

DSP is a specific case of a general approach to audio which involves
driving non-flat speakers with non-flat sources that are (hopefully)
designed to compensate for the non-flat speakers. Just because a device
uses equalization does not mean that it necessarily uses a DSP. There
are many other means for equalization that are commonly used. For
example passive loudspeaker crossover networks can be designed to act as
equalizers and frequently are.

The laws of physics are never overcome, but they can be played off
against each other to obtain a desired result. Equalization can be used
to trade off the frequency response of the speaker drivers, the room,
and the crossover network. If the speaker drivers lack the dynamic range
required to product loud, clear bass, then there are obvious audible
problems. The fundamental law at work relates to the size of the
diaphragm and its linear excursion. A small driver that is equalized to
extend its bass response can work very well if there is sufficient
linear range of movement of the diaphragm.

One common end run on a lack of dynamic range is to turn down the
equalization before the speaker is driven into audible distortion. What
happens is as the user increases the system gain close to the point of
audible distortion, the gain control stops increasing level. Many people
don't notice that their recent increases of system level aren't actually
making any change. Being able to turn the knob with no actual effect
still satisfies their actual need. Yup, placebo effect.


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[Jeff07971]

It's a myth that you invariably need membrane size and volume. Active
pressure wave shaping works and with modern high performance magnets you
can get the excursions required

There go the laws of physics again !!

p=Sd*Xmax*f^2*pi*rho0/(r*sqrt(2))

where p=sound pressure in Pa, Sd=eqv. piston area in m2, Xmax=max peak
excursion in m, f=frequency in Hz, rho0=1.2kg/m3, r=speaker-to-mic
distance in m.

or in excel form

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/spl_max1.xls



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[Mnyb]

Suppose xover to an active sub , thats needed for most speakers ? Dont
you think ?

The very few speakers ive heard that not really needs a sub was for
example ,meridian DSP8000 largest possible B&W some huge JBL system ,
but sub would have been nice anyway innthose systems



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
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iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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[Mnyb]

But then againnwhy all this enginering when a simple thng as a 4 times
larger box makes it possible to use say 250w peak power , extreme
excursion to make the diplacement and extrem power to overcome the size
limit and then soke DSP to overcme distorsion .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[artee]

Hm, while you are taking this apart... Has any one of you actually HEARD
this speaker?

I did listen to one at a local audio store (Sydney). The salesman seemed
to think "if sound is a good thing, more (louder) is better". It did put
out a lot of noise for its size, but it wasn't particularly enjoyable
and there seemed to be a distinct lack of midrange.

I'm convinced that active speakers are the way forward, but these aren't
the ones for me.


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[pippin]

Oh, you don't have to reach that far. Sonos, for example, does that.
Although they go one step further and completely replace a traditional
DAC with a serialized (DSD-like) digital signal into a speaker with a
low-pass filter.
If you get your maths right this is probably the most promising of
"clean" approaches



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Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
*New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch*
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[Mnyb]

One amp per driver gives you control over q and damping factor , no
reactive components in the way like coils , less ringing and the driver
is controlled out of band to . Nice impulse response is possible say god
buy to boomy bass hello tight bass and you get amplifier damping in
higher midrange and treble to if needed , in the passive speaker there
is typically a bunch of passive components . Basically amp should be
directly coupled to driver :)

Two other novel approaches are also possible .

Very high output impedance in the amp close to infinite ,gives you a
true current output . Drawbacks freque response has to be equalised no
damping so the box has to do that . But no power compression in the
drivers coil less THD and smaller box who now does more of the the
damping .

Tailored negative output impedance you manipulate the TS parameters of
the drivers a bit .

An active filter on the electronic side gives you a much easier way to
do steep filter slopes without much of the penalties a passive filter
gives you . A DSP based active filters makes good impulse response and
steep filters a thing at the same time , that matters less than folk
thinks ( first order filter myth by some audiophiles ) compared to the
positives .
For example the treble driver in a two way speaker with a shallow filter
, it has to handle rather lot of midrange much more than it would be
happy with so this limits clean distortions free output and you also
have to use very expensive tweeters who can take the punishment



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Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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