Discussion:
Cognitive biases
Julf
2014-06-19 06:39:14 UTC
Permalink
I was going to ask "how many of these apply to hi-fi?", but then I
realized it is probably better to ask "any that don't apply?"

'Business Insider: 58 Cognitive Biases That Screw Up Everything We Do'
(http://www.businessinsider.com/cognitive-biases-2014-6)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Gandhi
2014-06-19 08:47:19 UTC
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Good stuff.

While I admit to suffering from all of these problems, it's not
immediate clear to me how the following pertains to audiophilism: Affect
heuristic, Duration neglect, Galatea effect, Hard-Easy bias, Omission
bias.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
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Julf
2014-06-19 10:30:15 UTC
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Post by Gandhi
Good stuff.
While I admit to suffering from all of these problems, it's not
immediate clear to me how the following pertains to audiophilism: Affect
heuristic, Duration neglect, Galatea effect, Hard-Easy bias, Omission
bias.
Hmm... Yes, those ones are pretty hard to apply to audiophilia.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Mnyb
2014-06-19 11:20:55 UTC
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Post by Gandhi
Good stuff.
While I admit to suffering from all of these problems, it's not
immediate clear to me how the following pertains to audiophilism: Affect
heuristic, Duration neglect, Galatea effect, Hard-Easy bias, Omission
bias.
Some maybe ? we do get ourselfs motivated to do stuff due to our
comunity here that we otherwise wont do or would not think off .

Remebre bias is niether good or bad its just bias :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
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MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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get.amped
2014-06-19 12:35:54 UTC
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My bias about biases is that bias is bad and even though I'm cognizant
of my bias I am still biased by it.



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.9.0 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
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Gandhi
2014-06-19 14:15:17 UTC
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Post by Mnyb
Some maybe ? we do get ourselfs motivated to do stuff due to our
comunity here that we otherwise wont do or would not think off .
Remebre bias is niether good or bad its just bias :)
I don't quite follow. Which one(s) are you refering to?

I think even bias is biased.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Mnyb
2014-06-19 15:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gandhi
I don't quite follow. Which one(s) are you refering to?
I think even bias is biased.
Yes my argument is weak (and biased) and i don’t get all of the
explanations i googled up "Galatea effect" is a kind of self fullfilling
prophecy , you "succeed" as audiophile if you believe as much mumbo
jumbo as possible . You may even take possitively to beileve even more
if you peers cheer you on "I did not believe this POS before I tried,
but now I’m convinced that you rub you speaker cable with garlic" . They
actually dare each other to becomme even more gullible it's called an
"open mind" ;) (what an abuse of words) .

ON the positive side we can encourage each other in to be more sceptical
and think for ourself building another kind of spiral.... towards what
?

My weak argument is that all human activity incorparate elements off all
bias all the time in some degree :)

For example to really do an objective review of components ,it would be
really hard .

*Find people with no prior experience in the cult but trained as good
listeners or you could possible train them .

*let these persons do the subjective evaluation ABX ofcourse with a
reference system or the other components if its a group test (5 amps or
some such ) .
Further this testers should not know anything about the components at
all (not even what kind of components it is ,or the reference if any )
just listen .
They should see the components in question

*other people does the measurments functional and feature test and
quality assessment (these are important to ) and the general feel of the
equipment ,some are very biased factors but contribute to pride of
ownership. LIke cool design or some retro look.

* some editor not involved combine the open experience of using the
product with the facts gained from blinded listening test . Then we
would see interesting results "the group was very happy using Y in the
system but it does not really sound any different than reference X" we
recomend Y on basi of better qulity and features ... .

* the puplication releases several test at the same time "the subjective
tester" would not even know which test he/she did .

* some editor not involved combine the open experience of using the
product with the facts gained from blinded listening test .

It can possibly have some bias creeping in but it's better .

You cant get at the obvious dishonesty in the business big spenders in
ads etc will get good review no matter what "the money bias", the step
from performing useless test to just make things up is not big or
qualitatively different .
Useless test=supports random product ,made up test=support product of
certain advertiser or giver of "loan equipment" .
There is no prefered outcome , the random product can be cr*p . The
bought review product at least stays in bussines and can possibly
perform warranty and repairs later on.. :) bah to cynical of me



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Gandhi
2014-06-19 17:03:26 UTC
Permalink
..."Galatea effect"...
Ah, yes. I misread the definition of the Galatea effect. I thought it
just was about underperforming (which I thought was odd), but I see now
that it also is about succeeding.

And I must confess I often equate cynisism with realism.

An objective component review would indeed be hard with ABX. I have
always been suspicious of ABX, as it, from a purely practical
standpoint, simply is too difficult to manage. It's almost as hard as
doing a doubleblind study on the effects of oil massage. Fugedaboudit. I
think a more fruitful way is to measure, measure and measure again. We
would perhaps need to develop more methods of testing. For instance some
people seem to believe that single test tones are not enough. Maybe they
have a point. Well, then develop a different method to investigate that.
It's not just about proving things, it's also about explaining why it is
a proof to the people that don't have the background to understand it by
themselves. And hearing/seeing is believing. Never waste time with
subjectivities. Always find hard facts and build on those. Yada yada.
(Why do these discussions always come to this?)

But I actually believe the optimal testing method is already since long
invented; the null test. It's extremely powerful, but more importantly;
it's also extremely transparent. Everyone understands it and it's hard
to argue that the test is inadequate, when you actually measure the
entire audio content of some complex piece of music and compare this to
the source. What could possibly be missed? And if you get a difference
at the -120dB level, this would be very difficult to hear. It's easily
tested, just attenuate a sound in a sound editor by that amount and see
if you can hear it with the volume knob unchanged. If you can, then add
a masking noise and we're done.

By the way, doing a null test with the the entire audio chain would be
very unforgiving. There is a reason that we never see distortion figures
for speakers, in the way that we do for amps. Not to mention the
listening room.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101733
Mnyb
2014-06-19 17:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gandhi
Ah, yes. I misread the definition of the Galatea effect. I thought it
just was about underperforming (which I thought was odd), but I see now
that it also is about succeeding.
And I must confess I often equate cynisism with realism.
An objective component review would indeed be hard with ABX. I have
always been suspicious of ABX, as it, from a purely practical
standpoint, simply is too difficult to manage. It's almost as hard as
doing a doubleblind study on the effects of oil massage. Fugedaboudit. I
think a more fruitful way is to measure, measure and measure again. We
would perhaps need to develop more methods of testing. For instance some
people seem to believe that single test tones are not enough. Maybe they
have a point. Well, then develop a different method to investigate that.
It's not just about proving things, it's also about explaining why it is
a proof to the people that don't have the background to understand it by
themselves. And hearing/seeing is believing. Never waste time with
subjectivities. Always find hard facts and build on those. Yada yada.
(Why do these discussions always come to this?)
But I actually believe the optimal testing method is already since long
invented; the null test. It's extremely powerful, but more importantly;
it's also extremely transparent. Everyone understands it and it's hard
to argue that the test is inadequate, when you actually measure the
entire audio content of some complex piece of music and compare this to
the source. What could possibly be missed? And if you get a difference
at the -120dB level, this would be very difficult to hear. It's easily
tested, just attenuate a sound in a sound editor by that amount and see
if you can hear it with the volume knob unchanged. If you can, then add
a masking noise and we're done.
By the way, doing a null test with the the entire audio chain would be
very unforgiving. There is a reason that we never see distortion figures
for speakers, in the way that we do for amps. Not to mention the
listening room.
There is the wonderfull audiodiffmaker program for this :) compare
Post by Gandhi
120dB zeros with for examle trying to hear anything attenuated -120dB
at your listening position good luck with that , or listen to the
residue signal itself !

.Afaik the arguments about test tones falls a bit short if you also
measure i'm with at least two tones , then you covered all bases as i
believe fourier was quite rigth any complex tone is composed of several
sine components



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Gandhi
2014-06-19 17:36:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mnyb
There is the wonderfull audiodiffmaker program for this :) compare
Post by Gandhi
120dB zeros with for examle trying to hear anything attenuated -120dB
at your listening position good luck with that , or listen to the
residue signal itself !
.Afaik the arguments about test tones falls a bit short if you also
measure iIM with at least two tones , then you covered all bases as i
believe fourier was quite rigth any complex tone is composed of several
sine components
Yes, audiodiffmaker is great. I played around with it a couple of years
ago. It cured a lot.

And yes, Fourier was definitely right. Can't be more right than right.
(I recall proving this as an exercise at school, a long time ago. Now, I
wouldn't know where to start.)



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Julf
2014-06-20 05:41:48 UTC
Permalink
EDIT: Better make that sines with cosines on the side. To go.
Well, a cosine is a sine that is running a bit late... :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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