Discussion:
MEASUREMENTS: Using Cat5e USB Cable Extender - does it worsen jitter / audio quality?
Archimago
2013-12-29 19:57:58 UTC
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Probably the last measurement for the year :-).

Let's see what adding a 50-ft Cat5e cable extender does to the DAC's
audio output... If USB cables are *that* important, surely this should
ruin a few things like worsen jitter substantially, right? Measurements
with my -asynchronous- TEAC UD-501 DAC.

http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/12/measurements-usb-cable-extension-with.html

I want to thank you guys here on the forum for this past year! It's been
fun posting up some measurements and getting the blog started :-).

Hope you all had a wonderful 2013 with the Squeezeboxes and all the best
for 2014!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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mintaudio
2013-12-30 09:01:25 UTC
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I find your blog very interesting.. keep up the good work. I doubt it
would be very popular over at 'Computer Audiophile' though!


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Julf
2013-12-30 10:44:21 UTC
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I doubt it would be very popular over at 'Computer Audiophile' though!
+1 :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Archimago
2014-01-01 02:51:51 UTC
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Post by mintaudio
I find your blog very interesting.. keep up the good work. I doubt it
would be very popular over at 'Computer Audiophile' though!
Smopular popular :-)

Doesn't matter really... The interesting thing is that even if there are
lots of disagreements and gnashing of audiophile teeth, I'm just showing
folks what I'm finding beyond just subjective opinions - I hope this
kind of evaluation of gear takes hold out there or at least gets readers
thinking and questioning... Thus far, despite my invitations for links
to disprove my findings, I haven't seen anyone present alternate
objective findings! I think that's telling :-)

Have a wonderful 2014 everyone!



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mlsstl
2014-01-01 04:21:58 UTC
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I recently cancelled my account at Audio Asylum. Over the past months I
found that virtually none of the threads were of interest to me. The
sniping, arrogance and extremely odd (to me) insistence that their
subjective opinions couldn't possibly be due to subjective factors
finally got to me. I can take only so much babble.

I've got a simple system that pleases me and lots of music to play on
it. It is a lot more fun enjoying new music than buying some pricey
cable and seeing if I can hear some new sound [insert your choice of
audiophile terms here] from the millionth play of the hundredth
re-release/re-master of the "Dark Side Of The Moon".


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darrenyeats
2014-01-01 15:12:44 UTC
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As an ex-"solely objective" audiophile let me make the following
observations.

(1) We all hear according to our beliefs. Yes of course gross real
effects can impinge on any consciousness but the psyche is quite elastic
and to a large degree will hear according to world view. There is no law
that says this works only in the direction of hearing differences that
are not there. On another forum, a skeptical listener didn't perceive
any significant difference between several sources. But it was
established the sources were not level matched and the output levels
varied between 1.3 and 2.1Vrms. This doesn't prove the subjectivist
case, of course, but it proves that unstructured tests and hearing what
one believes are problems for all, regardless of belief.

(2) Blind listening. Very useful for putting personal perceptions in
perspective. To arrive at a scientific conclusion requires statistical
confidence and this requires a lot of repeated controlled tests. That
creates an unusual situation for the listener. Certainly, I've
experienced mental (not physical) fatigue rather quickly when trying it.
Once I've repeated it enough times to prove something statistically,
what have I really proved?

(3) Tests. I have a hard time investing in gear that doesn't measure
really well. But I do think that the normal rafts of tests are
insufficient. I would like to see more IM tests (with more than two
tones) and a way of testing more dynamic waveforms too. There are no
such standards AFAIK. There are few reports of harmonic distortion
profiles, instead the emphasis seems to be on aggregate harmonic
distortion. Are tests conducted under "lab conditions"? A great example,
using a very clean power supply without noise from switched power
supplies etc on the mains. If yes, the test may not be representative of
real world conditions. If no, perhaps this might influence the test
results. I'm not saying let's not measure, I'm saying you need to see
test results for what they are. Actually I am pro measurement -
Archimago's and Ken Rockwell's tests actually OPENED MY MIND to the fact
that digital transports and interfaces can differ measurably, measured
at the analogue output of the DAC. The differences are really small,
yes, but they are there. Why refrain from optimising things technically
when you can, just because you think it won't be audible?

(4) The sampling theorem. Sampling theory is perfect, ADCs and DACs are
not. This is fact, the only argument is over how imperfect and whether
it's audible.

(5) Audibility. Audibility is always in context. What might be inaudible
in my current system may be audible in another. The elusive concept of
"sound stage" is one area where high end systems operate at a higher
level than lesser ones. This is far less audible on headphones even
though headphones outperform speakers in many important performance
areas. This might be unproven but so many people hear it, it pays to
open your mind a little to admit there might be more to it than ABX on
headphones when refuting high end claims.

(6) What is hi-fi? For some hi-fi is being true to the recording. For
some hi-fi is about making recordings sound like real life. These are
very overlapping but very distinct approaches and either is valid IMO.
The confusion of these two approaches is very fundamental to the
subjective versus objective arguments. *Understanding this is key to
unravelling a lot of the confusing and circular arguments* IMO.

For me measurements and subjectivity can and SHOULD live together.
Demonstrated facts must be accepted but I accept also that scientific
models have changed over time, usually but not always by a process of
evolution. It's a reasonable bet the future will look similar. In the
meantime, we do have to use our ears, preferably blind, although some
will prefer the comfort of "knowing the facts".



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

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Julf
2014-01-01 16:37:25 UTC
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What is hi-fi? For some hi-fi is being true to the recording. For some
hi-fi is about making recordings sound like real life. These are very
overlapping but very distinct approaches and either is valid IMO. The
confusion of these two approaches is very fundamental to the subjective
versus objective arguments. *Understanding this is key to unravelling a
lot of the confusing and circular arguments* IMO.
Unfortunately we have a third class - the "subjective objectivists", if
you like, who generalize from "sounds better to me" to "is therefore
better in an absolute sense, for everybody".
For me measurements and subjectivity can and SHOULD live together.
Demonstrated facts must be accepted but I accept also that scientific
models have changed over time, usually but not always by a process of
evolution.
But what hasn't changed (well, since the 1500's) is the process and
method of verifying and modifying our scientific models. Observations
that appear to go against our current understanding are only the first
step - most "subjectivists" (and adherents of faith/belief/personal
experience-based systems in general) never get beyond that first step to
the next one, verifying and replicating the observations, not to mention
any of the further steps along the path...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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darrenyeats
2014-01-01 18:30:40 UTC
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On one hand you don't have to accept people's impressions, especially if
you think they are biased by non-aural factors.

On the other hand, hobbyists don't have to accompany their impressions
with scientific proof.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk



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RonM
2014-01-11 01:19:57 UTC
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Post by darrenyeats
On the other hand, hobbyists don't have to accompany their impressions
with scientific proof.
Yes, I suppose, but supporting opinions in some systematic and logical
way grounded in facts IS important. Otherwise it's not a hobby, it's a
religion.

R.


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darrenyeats
2014-01-12 10:13:27 UTC
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Right but a reasonably intelligent and well educated person finding
something -implausible- does not constitute "fact"!

Not long ago, it was a fact that digital transports and USB cables
couldn't make a difference for DACs, until Archimago got his measuring
stick out.

As I said, measurable technical improvements in DACs are being sought
and achieved even by the pro firms. The only question is audibility, but
surely some studios and systems might benefit, otherwise we must accept
that Benchmark, Mytek, Weiss et al are really high end con artists or
deluded audiophiles?

Skepticism is good and healthy starting point for arguments but it
doesn't itself end arguments.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk



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Archimago
2014-01-12 21:34:35 UTC
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Post by darrenyeats
Right but a reasonably intelligent and well educated person finding
something -implausible- does not constitute "fact"!
Not long ago, it was a fact that digital transports and cables couldn't
make a difference for DACs, until Archimago got his measuring stick
out.
Just a note to clarify what the results show:
1. Yes, transports do make a difference. Small changes can be found
between the Squeezebox units and laptops mainly in the extreme high
frequencies... I suspect this is the result of timing differences with
the -synchronous- SPDIF interface and my old adaptive isochronous USB
DAC. This effect goes away with asynchronous USB DACs (ASUS Essence One,
TEAC UD-501).

2. Digital cables -by themselves- do not seem to make any difference -
TosLink, coaxial, USB, HDMI all measure the same for me (obviously so
long as the digital data isn't being corrupted). Theoretically,
extremely long cables could cause timing errors but I haven't seen this
with a 12-foot length of plastic TosLink (2x6' connected with plastic
optocoupler) or 25-foot poor quality coaxial SPDIF. Of course, my
billionaire playboy friend Keaton Goulden-Eyre III subjectively heard
differences ;-).

I'm still looking for the opportunity to borrow some expensive cables to
try from the local audio store but have not been down there in a few
months now...



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darrenyeats
2014-01-12 23:35:14 UTC
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Post by Archimago
TosLink, coaxial, USB, HDMI all measure the same for me (obviously so
long as the digital data isn't being corrupted). Theoretically,
extremely long cables could cause timing errors but I haven't seen this
with a 12-foot length of plastic TosLink (2x6' connected with plastic
optocoupler) or 25-foot poor quality coaxial SPDIF.
What about here
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/measurements-logitech-touch-as-transport.html
for 24/96? You have different results for "RCA" and "cheap RCA".



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Archimago
2014-01-15 17:03:00 UTC
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Post by darrenyeats
What about here
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/measurements-logitech-touch-as-transport.html
for 24/96? You have different results for "RCA" and "cheap RCA".
Good point. Fair enough :-). That was a demonstration of noise getting
into the DAC from an unshielded RCA cable not meant as a digital coaxial
interconnect.

I guess it's best to say that so long as there's adequate shielding from
noise in a non-galvanically isolated digital interface and bit
perfection is achieved, there should be no differences...

As a reminder, even though the "cheap RCA" cable demonstrated higher
noise floor, the difference was really small and can be bettered with
just a decent inexpensive generic coaxial cable!



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