Discussion:
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
netchord
2015-04-18 00:38:51 UTC
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ja? oder nein?



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Mike Sargent
2015-04-18 13:26:44 UTC
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Anything that "burns in" or "breaks in" is also wearing out.

Why would you buy a cable that's wearing out?

(Basically, cable break in is a lie, just designed to get you to hold
onto the new cable until you can't return it, because they sound
*exactly* the same as much cheaper cables.)

Mike


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Mnyb
2015-04-18 13:39:14 UTC
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What " burns in " is your mind :)

Re cables as any reasonably designed cable is the same as any other ,
they can't per definition burn in as you can't hear them in the first
place .

And there is no property that change in any reasonable time span .
cables are the same for decades .

Maybe they burn a hole in wallet .....



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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netchord
2015-04-21 13:29:03 UTC
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interesting experience recently. i moved my system around, and needed
longer speaker cables (25'). I had been using Ocos, an 8' pair, and
liked it, but it's no longer available. i also needed something that
was relatively small in diameter so i could run it either under my rug,
or run it under the floor, via the basement. just to get things up and
running i bought some inexpensive monoprice 12 gauge speaker wire, which
sounded ok, but rather raw. it did improve a bit after the first week
or so, but still pretty rough.

then i found a dealer who still had some Ocos, and could make a 25'
pair. it was expensive, but exactly what i thought i wanted, so I took
the plunge. when i first hooked it up, it sounded ok, definitely not as
rough as the monoprice, but also very flat sounding, almost lifeless and
devoid of dynamics. figured it needed to burn in, so i left it alone
and tried not to listen critically.

two weeks in, and it still sounded broken, and the right speaker sounded
much louder, with the image skewed to that side as well. granted, that
speaker is in a corner, so you'd expect some emphasis on that speaker,
but i'd never heard anything quite like this. i began to suspect that
maybe they'd mis-terminated it, and the speakers were out of phase, so i
swapped the +/- on one speaker. center image immediately improved, so i
left it that way for a while, but it sounded disjointed, bass suffered,
and i realized they'd been wired correctly after all.

so i swapped +/- again, and voila! everything came into focus, center
image remained, bass improved, tightened up now, not overly boomy like
previously, and the sound had depth and space to it, and the sense of
effortless openness and neutrality i associated with my prior pair of
Ocos. by this time i'd been listening for a good 3 weeks, probably
75-100 hours.

so yes, cable does change over time; whether that's "burn in" or some
other term i can't say.



--
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MichaelJ
2015-04-21 15:19:05 UTC
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Post by netchord
so yes, cable does change over time; whether that's "burn in" or some
other term i can't say.
It's been my experience that perception changes over time....cables
remain constant.


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netchord
2015-04-21 15:34:17 UTC
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Post by MichaelJ
It's been my experience that perception changes over time....cables
remain constant.
perception burn in- interesting concept.



--
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G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
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Mnyb
2015-04-21 15:40:39 UTC
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Post by netchord
perception burn in- interesting concept.
Yes if you move speakers or move to another house, it sounds radically
different for while until you get used to it .
That said I've had bad and good rooms , the bad ones never sounded
really good regardless off time to settle for me or the equipment .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
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iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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netchord
2015-04-21 16:48:45 UTC
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Post by Mnyb
Yes if you move speakers or move to another house, it sounds radically
different for while until you get used to it .
That said I've had bad and good rooms , the bad ones never sounded
really good regardless off time to settle for me or the equipment .
didn't move the speakers.



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RonM
2015-04-21 17:58:24 UTC
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Post by netchord
didn't move the speakers.
He wasn't suggesting you did. What he WAS suggesting is that the mind
is a flexible thing, and that it's easy to convince ourselves of things
that have no objective reality.

It's why systematic observation using controlled methodologies is so
very important.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC3)
Transporter (Ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space
Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (WiFi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theater, all others),
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netchord
2015-04-21 18:43:01 UTC
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Post by RonM
He wasn't suggesting you did. What he WAS suggesting is that the mind
is a flexible thing, and that it's easy to convince ourselves of things
that have no objective reality.
It's why systematic observation using controlled methodologies is so
very important.
i'd rather just listen to the music and enjoy a glass of wine.



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cliveb
2015-04-21 19:19:11 UTC
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Post by netchord
i'd rather just listen to the music and enjoy a glass of wine.
That's ok, we're fine with that.

But what we're not fine with is you coming here and stating that your
(utterly unscientific) experience demonstrates that cables do change
character over time.

Theory predicts they won't, proper experiments show they don't, and well
understood psychology explains why you might think they do when they
don't. In other words there's a mountain of evidence that is at odds
with your anecdotal experience.



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Mnyb
2015-04-21 19:22:47 UTC
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Yes thats it if the output of the quipment does not change ( they
electrical output and the soundwaves are the same ) and you still
experience a difference, you are forced to find the explanation
somewhere else :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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toby10
2015-04-21 21:18:22 UTC
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So what actually changes in the copper to alter (your) sound in speaker
cable? Do the electrons age? Electrons change course? Electrons
changing their orbit? Electrons reproducing? Maybe the great grand
children of the original electrons are better at moving
differently/faster? ;)


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netchord
2015-04-22 00:52:07 UTC
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Post by cliveb
That's ok, we're fine with that.
But what we're not fine with is you coming here and stating that your
(utterly unscientific) experience demonstrates that cables do change
character over time.
Theory predicts they won't, proper experiments show they don't, and well
understood psychology explains why you might think they do when they
don't. In other words there's a mountain of evidence that is at odds
with your anecdotal experience.
yes, i am fine with that.

and i don't give a good goddam whether or not you're fine with my
stating my experience.



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toby10
2015-04-22 10:00:51 UTC
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no fucking clue.
Indeed.


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probedb
2015-04-23 12:39:59 UTC
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no fucking clue.
No you don't do you.



'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb)
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netchord
2015-04-23 13:54:59 UTC
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explain how the physical characteristics of the cable change over time
please.
no.



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Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
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Daverz
2015-04-24 03:45:48 UTC
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Post by probedb
No you don't do you.
I don't think this hostility is called for.


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yeomanspc
2015-04-22 12:24:43 UTC
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Post by netchord
i'd rather just listen to the music and enjoy a glass of wine.
I figure the wine has more effect than the cable burn! Enjoy both.




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netchord
2015-04-22 15:07:08 UTC
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Post by yeomanspc
I figure the wine has more effect than the cable burn! Enjoy both.
i can hear the difference between red, white, and rosé.



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kidstypike
2015-04-22 15:15:22 UTC
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Next time you need new cable, have it burned in by the professionals
before delivery -
http://www.russandrews.com/product-Cable-Burn-In-Service-BURNIN.htm ;)
;) ;)



kidstypike
1 x SB3 - 1 x Boom - 1 x (Squeezebox) Radio - 2 x Touch - 2 x
piCorePlayer
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netchord
2015-04-22 21:41:32 UTC
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here's a room panorama:

17923

system is on the far right, on a wall perpendicular to the speakers,
which flank the piano.


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Archimago
2015-04-23 01:06:27 UTC
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Post by netchord
17923
system is on the far right, on a wall perpendicular to the speakers,
which flank the piano.
Nice system Netchord.

Yikes, looks like a challenging room with the right speaker nestled in
the corner between reflecting surfaces and your piano... I see what you
mean about needing longer speaker cables. Room treatments and speaker
repositioning would likely make a world of difference IMO; much more
than any cable upgrade. Of course being in the living room like that,
"family acceptance factor" would be an issue!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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netchord
2015-04-23 01:24:49 UTC
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Post by Archimago
Nice system Netchord.
Yikes, looks like a challenging room with the right speaker nestled in
the corner between reflecting surfaces and your piano... I see what you
mean about needing longer speaker cables. Room treatments and speaker
repositioning would likely make a world of difference IMO; much more
than any cable upgrade. Of course being in the living room like that,
"family acceptance factor" would be an issue!
yes, it's a challenging room, it's living room, the foyer, and passage
ways to both the dining area and the rest of the house. no easy
solution. doors are awkwardly placed, and there's a fireplace to the
left, opposite the front door.

and there's a 12' vaulted ceiling....

in spite of which, it actually sounds pretty good, so long as no kids,
spouses, or pets are rampaging through the soundstage. i need curtains,
but i'm happy w/ the cables now. i may change the amp at some point
(looking at tubes), and the digital front end may get some tweaks when
we see what the combo of Tidal/Roon/MQA actually delivers.



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Archimago
2015-04-23 01:51:22 UTC
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Post by netchord
yes, it's a challenging room, it's living room, the foyer, and passage
ways to both the dining area and the rest of the house. no easy
solution. doors are awkwardly placed, and there's a fireplace to the
left, opposite the front door.
and there's a 12' vaulted ceiling....
in spite of which, it actually sounds pretty good, so long as no kids,
spouses, or pets are rampaging through the soundstage. i need curtains,
but i'm happy w/ the cables now. i may change the amp at some point
(looking at tubes), and the digital front end may get some tweaks when
we see what the combo of Tidal/Roon/MQA actually delivers.
Cool man. Nice ideas for potential updates in the days ahead. Yeah,
thick enough curtains will certainly help. And be careful with the
vaulted ceiling and early reflections. Lots to consider with speaker
placement in that room!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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Mnyb
2015-04-23 03:33:36 UTC
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Having a carpet in front of the speakers like you do helps a bit with
early floor reflections in the midrange .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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netchord
2015-04-23 14:07:39 UTC
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Lots to consider with speaker placement in that room!
there's lots to ponder, and i've spent hours thinking about it, but
ultimately only two places they can go. where they are, or on the wall
opposite, which is where the couch/listening position are. for traffic
and other aesthetic considerations, the couch can't go where the
speakers are, so here we are.

also, the couch is too far away from the speakers, relative to how far
apart they are. an ideal placement would be for the left speaker to be
in the middle of the doorway. i briefly raised that possibility, but it
was met with...objections from other members of the family.



--
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G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
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Daverz
2015-04-24 03:31:36 UTC
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Post by netchord
17923
system is on the far right, on a wall perpendicular to the speakers,
which flank the piano.
I wonder how much the piano strings resonate when the music is played
loudly.


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netchord
2015-04-24 12:13:24 UTC
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Post by Daverz
I wonder how much the piano strings resonate when the music is played
loudly.
not sure, but I've had the piano for years, and the strings have
certainly burned in by now.



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Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
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Mike Sargent
2015-04-24 15:53:00 UTC
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FWIW: The piano strings *will* resonate along with the music, so keeping
the piano tuned will probably make everything sound better.

Mike


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ralphpnj
2015-04-25 13:29:17 UTC
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Post by netchord
17923
system is on the far right, on a wall perpendicular to the speakers,
which flank the piano.
Is the carefully placed Dylan album cover in the photo really necessary
since, as you've noted, you are already married :)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
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philippe_44
2015-04-21 16:27:34 UTC
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Post by MichaelJ
It's been my experience that perception changes over time....cables
remain constant.
Being a signal processing engineer, I'd really like to understand the
physics at play in cable burn-in when they are so far away from any of
their limit (I don't think we are counting oxydation, right :) and I
can't see metal structural changes looking at the "modest" energy that
goes through these). For some products I manufacture, we do burn-in, but
there is a logic there why the normal use is close enough to some of the
semicon limits so that brun-in/aging precipitate some changes / failures



LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne
(sort of)
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Archimago
2015-04-21 21:25:28 UTC
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Post by netchord
...
two weeks in, and it still sounded broken, and the right speaker sounded
much louder, with the image skewed to that side as well. granted, that
speaker is in a corner, so you'd expect some emphasis on that speaker,
but i'd never heard anything quite like this. i began to suspect that
maybe they'd mis-terminated it, and the speakers were out of phase, so i
swapped the +/- on one speaker. center image immediately improved, so i
left it that way for a while, but it sounded disjointed, bass suffered,
and i realized they'd been wired correctly after all.
so i swapped +/- again, and voila! everything came into focus, center
image remained, bass improved, tightened up now, not overly boomy like
previously, and the sound had depth and space to it, and the sense of
effortless openness and neutrality i associated with my prior pair of
Ocos. by this time i'd been listening for a good 3 weeks, probably
75-100 hours.
so yes, cable does change over time; whether that's "burn in" or some
other term i can't say.
Interesting anecdote and I'm glad for you that eventually things sound
as it should again.

My concern is that you switched the polarity of ONE speaker and center
image IMPROVED running out of phase like this!? And you were somehow
able to listen to music while running the speakers like this for 3 weeks
(75-100 hours) before switching back to proper polarity!

In essence, you're suggesting that the magnitude of audible change for
you was like the difference between playing in and out of phase until
this "burn-in" allowed everything to sound as it should!? Wow... That
kind of improvement you speak of *must* be measurable if it actually
occurs!

After all these decades, if burn-in can create effect of this magnitude,
I'm quite sure it would be well documented already.



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netchord
2015-04-22 00:55:30 UTC
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Post by Archimago
Interesting anecdote and I'm glad for you that eventually things sound
as it should again.
My concern is that you switched the polarity of ONE speaker and center
image IMPROVED running out of phase like this!? And you were somehow
able to listen to music while running the speakers like this for 3 weeks
(75-100 hours) before switching back to proper polarity!
In essence, you're suggesting that the magnitude of audible change for
you was like the difference between playing in and out of phase by
180-degrees until this "burn-in" allowed everything to sound as it
should!? Wow... That kind of improvement you speak of *must* be
measurable if it actually occurs!
After all these decades, if burn-in can create effect of this magnitude,
I'm quite sure it would be well documented already.
A suggestion: Could you take a picture of your soundroom and speakers to
show us what the set-up looks like so we have a sense of the acoustics
in that room?
didn't mean to imply i listened for 75 hours -after- switching polarity.
in total, i probably had 75-100 hours since i replaced the monoprice w/
the Ocos. and i think the timing of the "break in" was coincidental,
but wanted to put all the info out there.

i tried to upload a pic along with my original post but for some reason
the board would not allow it.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
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Daverz
2015-04-22 03:47:02 UTC
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While I do hear differences between speaker cables, I've never heard
this break-in phenomenon. I've read that it is due to changes in the
dielectric properties of the insulation, but I've never seen a reference
to the physics or electrical engineering literature.


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Mnyb
2015-04-22 03:57:11 UTC
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Post by Daverz
While I do hear differences between speaker cables, I've never heard
this break-in phenomenon. I've read that it is due to changes in the
dielectric properties of the insulation, but I've never seen a reference
to the physics or electrical engineering literature.
You would not really :) of course dielectric properties can change a bit
over the years but that's most likely a constant process it not stopping
anywhere after x hours .

It's one of those things that only happens in audio but are rarely
mentioned in the rest of electrical science .

This cable burn in is actually a knowable quantity .

Just measure a cable before burn in and after burn in ,it's that simple
. You will find that they measure the same . Hence the perceived
difference is not due to any electrical or acoustical change .

And if something would change what would it be , the only relevant
properties in audio frequencies are LCR , more exotic quantities does
not come into play your are not building a radar ?



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Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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alfista
2015-04-22 05:03:24 UTC
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Post by netchord
so yes, cable does change over time
The only thing you have established is that you believe "cable does
change over time", not that they actually do. There's a fundamental
difference to those two things.
If you're content with your beliefs, by all means, no reason for you to
make the effort necessary to prove the existence of such a phenomenon,
much less the research into the causes.


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