[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] From the "You can't make this stuff up" files

[ralphpnj]

A recent thread on Head-fi
(http://www.head-fi.org/t/750478/a-listening-test-of-nass) featured a
link to this lovely bit of audiophile nonsense
(http://enjoythemusic.com/hificritic/vol5_no3/listening_to_storage.htm).
As I say in the thread title, you can't make this stuff up!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
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[philippe_44]

Post by ralphpnj
A recent thread on Head-fi
(http://www.head-fi.org/t/750478/a-listening-test-of-nass) featured a
link to this lovely bit of audiophile nonsense
(http://enjoythemusic.com/hificritic/vol5_no3/listening_to_storage.htm).
As I say in the thread title, you can't make this stuff up!

This has to be a joke. i have an engineering degree in signal
processing, but I've never been paying attention to the audiophile side
of things. Now, saying that songs sound different when played from
different storage is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
if you want a golden plated NAS because it visually fit better with your
equipment its fine, but dont tell me it sounds different. It is
embarrassing for whoever wrote that, to be so clueless of what they are
talking about



LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne
(sort of)
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[ralphpnj]

Post by philippe_44
This has to be a joke. i have an engineering degree in signal
processing, but I've never been paying attention to the audiophile side
of things. Now, saying that songs sound different when played from
different storage is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
if you want a golden plated NAS because it visually fit better with your
equipment its fine, but dont tell me it sounds different. It is
embarrassing for whoever wrote that, to be so clueless of what they are
talking about

From what I can gather the linked article was NOT a joke. The article
first appeared in the HiFiCritic, Volume 5, No. 3 (July to September
2011). The HiFiCritic is a UK high end audio publication offering one
year/four issue subscriptions to the print magazine from 60 pounds (for
UK) all the way up to $122 (for US).

I would say that the HiFiCritic represents the outer fringes of high end
audio and I guess that next to the HiFiCritic publications like
Stereophile (with their constant hawking of $500 and up USB cables) seem
downright based in science (which they are not).



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[bonze]

Are these SATA cables you were looking for?

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2012/03/26/wiredream-silver-sata/1

although they do seem on the cheap side



LMS Version: 7.9
TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3 - WHS 2011
2x Touch, 3x SB3
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[philippe_44]

Post by bonze
Are these SATA cables you were looking for?
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2012/03/26/wiredream-silver-sata/1
although they do seem on the cheap side

This is so funny - almost choked up laughing. i also like the conclusion
of the article above

================
In a quick personal ranking to date, covering all these tests, my notes
put the Kingston SSD's sound quality first — with hindsight more a
cerebral than an emotional choice — then the QNAP2, followed by either
of the 2.5in drives in the Synology DS411slim. QNAP2 still had perhaps
the most engaging bass performance of the crop, but its involving
musicality came at the expense of a somewhat narrower soundstage.
================

i want the 'engaging bass performance', so i ditched all my existing NAS



LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
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(sort of)
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[ralphpnj]

Post by philippe_44
This is so funny - almost choked up laughing. i also like the conclusion
of the article above
================
In a quick personal ranking to date, covering all these tests, my notes
put the Kingston SSD's sound quality first — with hindsight more a
cerebral than an emotional choice — then the QNAP2, followed by either
of the 2.5in drives in the Synology DS411slim. QNAP2 still had perhaps
the most engaging bass performance of the crop, but its involving
musicality came at the expense of a somewhat narrower soundstage.
================
i want the 'engaging bass performance', so i ditched all my existing NAS

What really infuriated me about the HiFiCritic article was the lack of a
list of substances consumed while conducting the listening tests. So I
have no idea if it was the wine, beer, bourbon, vodka, gin, weed, LSD,
etc. that made the various drives sound different or was the author just
imagining everything.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
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[EricBergan]

Similar stuff over in Absolute Sound over the last 18 months. Most
recent, using exactly the same external DAC/audio system, the music was
fed better from a PC than a Mac out to USB into the DAC.

At the end of that article, the authors also decried the "vicious"
attacks they have been receiving in comments. They argue that double
blind tests and objective measurement are not useful because they are
not able to detect the subtle differences that they hear.


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[SlimChances]

I am of the school that the newer technologies mask the true sound. We
should be listening to music off of 5 1/4" Floppies. Sure you may have
to change the disks more frequently than a 16 TB NAS but the cound is
rich and full of colour, less amiguity



Logitech Media Server Version: 7.9.0 - 1412783275 @ Fri Oct 10 04:00:09
UTC 2014
Operating system: Debian - EN - utf8 Platform
Architecture: x86_64-linux
Perl Version: 5.18.2 - x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi
Database Version: DBD::SQLite 1.34_01
(sqlite 3.7.7.1)

One SB Touch connected by ethernet - Denon AVR -1912 Receiver, Paradigm
4.1 speakers
Two SB Radios wireless
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[pablolie]

some more listening tests i suggest:

* different SATA cables for your hard drive
* different versions of CPUs on your media server
* Different RAM on your media server
* different vendors chipsets
* onboard versus USB hubs
* SSD versus Spinning Disk

so many things can make a difference way before you even hit that high
end USB cable! to me SSDs sound too digital, the rotating nature of a
classic hard drive naturally is able to deliver on a more analogue
sound, since it resembles a turntable! wish i could upgrade the reading
heads on the hard drive some! i have put a dried avocado pit on a drive
and it decisively improved sound. versus the SSD and pitless HD i got an
extra analogue dimension. maybe the ants helped, too.

i have an upcoming review on different eSATA cables, suffice to say i
have come up with my own audiophile line of cables to address this
flawed element where digital audiophiles still fall prey to the pitfalls
of cheap standard cables!



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity
M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e
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[Julf]

The latest HiFi News had a 3-page test of a 6000 GBP audiophile NAS
against a "standard" NAS box. Are we surprised that the subjective
differences were small but audible?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[cliveb]

to me SSDs sound too digital, the rotating nature of a classic hard
drive naturally is able to deliver on a more analogue sound, since it
resembles a turntable!

Excellent point.
And I see a gap in the audiophool marketplace: belt-drive hard disks!



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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[darrenyeats]

Post by cliveb
Excellent point.
And I see a gap in the audiophool marketplace: belt-drive hard disks!

Good one!



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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[Mnyb]

Post by cliveb
Excellent point.
And I see a gap in the audiophool marketplace: belt-drive hard disks!

was it not some crackpot company that sold a belt drive CD player :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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[Apesbrain]

Post by Mnyb
was it not some crackpot company that sold a belt drive CD player :)

Still around:
http://www.cec-web.co.jp/products/cdplayer/tl0x/tl0x_e.html


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[Mnyb]

Post by Apesbrain
http://www.cec-web.co.jp/products/cdplayer/tl0x/tl0x_e.html

Oh they upgraded it , retail is only 20 - 25k$ for a transport :) this
is so silly considering ripping with the help of accurate rip is better
than any cd drive can possible bee and the design is totally cargo cult
to begin with....



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[philippe_44]

Post by Apesbrain
http://www.cec-web.co.jp/products/cdplayer/tl0x/tl0x_e.html

This is so ridiculous when you have a small idea (even a very small
idea) of what error correction code is ... having said that, the object
looks nice and they could perfectly sell it for design purpose ... but
all that technical BS covering is almost an insult to intelligence



LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne
(sort of)
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[Mnyb]

Post by philippe_44
This is so ridiculous when you have a small idea (even a very small
idea) of what error correction code is ... having said that, the object
looks nice and they could perfectly sell it for design purpose ... but
all that technical BS covering is almost an insult to intelligence

That and buffers :) afaik the bit streams is interleaved L/R and coded
with some way so that the error correction code can work . Was year
since I've read about the Solomon reed coding .

But the player decodes and buffer and then it's clock decides at what
precision the data leave the player .

If you ever want to overkill this , you can do like meridian on some of
their disc spinners use DVD rom drives and read the disc at greater than
playback speed use a larger buffer and then you have time to revisit and
re-read problem spots .

This is ofcourse also made obsolete by simply ripping the disc ...



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[philippe_44]

Post by Mnyb
That and buffers :) afaik the bit streams is interleaved L/R and coded
with some way so that the error correction code can work . Was year
since I've read about the Solomon reed coding .
But the player decodes and buffer and then it's clock decides at what
precision the data leave the player .
If you ever want to overkill this , you can do like meridian on some of
their disc spinners use DVD rom drives and read the disc at greater than
playback speed use a larger buffer and then you have time to revisit and
re-read problem spots .
This is ofcourse also made obsolete by simply ripping the disc ...

I don't remember the exact number, but any decent player have a bit
error rate, after use of error correction code, of less than 10^-10.
Good enough for my ears ;)



LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1,
PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne
(sort of)
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[Julf]

Post by philippe_44
I don't remember the exact number, but any decent player have a bit
error rate, after use of error correction code, of less than 10^-10.
Good enough for my ears ;)

But isn't the audiophile mantra "everything matters"?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[mikerob]

I can see what the problem is. The photo in the review shows the
equipment they used and it includes a Netgear 8 port switch and these
only cost about £20.

Surely if they used a Cisco GSR router costing over £50k (and taking up
most of a 19 inch rack...) the sound quality improvement would be "night
and day", as they say in audiophile-land.

Why hasn't anyone produced an Audiophile switch yet?


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[reinholdk]

The article first appeared in the HiFiCritic, Volume 5, No. 3 (July to
September 2011).

Thanks for clarifying.
I was looking for a date on the website and expected to see some April,
1st. Then I was reading the text a second time trying to find an acronym
like A.P.R.I.L., which is sometimes hidden in such articles that try to
fool you. :)


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[ralphpnj]

Post by reinholdk
Thanks for clarifying.
I was looking for a date on the website and expected to see some April,
1st. Then I was reading the text a second time trying to find an acronym
like A.P.R.I.L., which is sometimes hidden in such articles that try to
fool you. :)

As I stated earlier, this article does not appear to be a joke, at least
not intentionally. The sad part is that while anyone with a working
knowledge of computers and digital data can clearly see that just
everything about this article is totally incorrect, there are many, many
people who buy into this nonsense. Some of them because they simply want
to believe and others because they see as an opportunity to make some
easy money selling "audiophile" computer parts and accessories.

One thing that I've noticed with audiophiles is that they don't seem to
understand the difference between probable, possible and impossible. For
example if I do not buy a lottery ticket it is impossible for me to win
the lottery. However if I buy a lottery ticket it is now possible that I
might win the big prize but it is still not very probable. Depending on
the odds of the lottery the difference between not having a ticket and
having one ticket is almost zero, i.e. it's much a given that I'm not
going to win but without a ticket I've just removed a very slight bit of
uncertainty.

Many of the more "out there" audiophile theories fall into the "it is
not impossible but highly improbable" category. What gets left out is
just how improbable.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[darrenyeats]

However if I buy a lottery ticket it is now possible that I might win
the big prize but it is still not very probable.

IIRC someone calculated the chances of winning the National Lottery are
doubled by buying a ticket on the day (because if you bought at the
start of the week, the chance of you dying during that week is equal to
the chance of winning!)



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
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[ralphpnj]

Post by darrenyeats
IIRC someone calculated the chances of winning the National Lottery are
doubled by buying a ticket on the day (because the odds of you dying
during that week are so significant compared to the odds of winning!)

The National Lottery - that's pays out in British pounds, correct? I'm
talking about US Lotteries, you know the ones that pay out in US
dollars, a currency that's actually worth something (that is, at least
until the next stock market collapse) :)

Back on topic:

Does one's dying lift or lower a veil on the sound of one's audio
system?



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[pablolie]

shoot someone beat me to audiophile SATA... :-(

http://www.hifidelit.com/collections/paul-pang-audio/products/ppa-red-sata-cable



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity
M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e
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[Mnyb]

I'll go for EZ-drive over SCSI :) probably like one cartridge per track
.... It's awkward old fashioned and obsoleta tech so it must be
audiophile rigth ? There aren HP DDC tape drives at work used in some of
our obsolete tech .... Hmmm



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[cliveb]

Post by darrenyeats
IIRC someone calculated the chances of winning the National Lottery are
doubled by buying a ticket on the day (because the odds of you dying
during that week are so significant compared to the odds of winning!)

I don't recall who said it, but the quote I liked most was:
"your chances of winning the lottery are the same whether you buy a
ticket or not".



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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