Which one sounds better - Windows or Linux?

[Julf]

'from Linux Audio Users' (https://lwn.net/Articles/542664/)

From: Ben Bell <bjb-linux-audio-user-TyrVtz9mvJ4-AT-public.gmane.org>
To: Jeremy Jongepier
<jeremy-ZBSUaDdsfOGukZHgTAicrQ-AT-public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [LAU] Alsa and 24-bit in Ubuntu Studio?
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 10:02:49 +0000
Message-ID: <20130308100249.GB356-***@public.gmane.org>
Cc:
linux-audio-user-cunTk1MwBs/CEJeg2xFRV2D2FQJk+8+b-AT-public.gmane.org
Archive-link: Article, Thread

Yah, but which one sounds better - Windows or Linux? ;-)

Linux of course if you have to believe the audiophile forums.

Well obviously. Anyone with ears can tell you that.

More importantly, does a vintage kernel sound better than a more recent
one?
I've been doing some testing and the results are pretty clear, not that
they should surprise anyone who knows anything about recording:

1) Older kernels sound much warmer than newer ones.

2) Kernels compiled by hand on the machine they run on sound less
sterile
than upstream distro provided ones which also tend to have flabby
low
end response and bad stereo imaging.

3) As if it needed saying, gcc4 is a disaster for sound quality. I
mean,
seriously if you want decent audio and you use gcc4 you may as well
be
recording with a tin can microphone.

4) Kernels sound better after they've been worn in a bit. Don't expect
your
newly built 2.4 kernel to have that warm sound until you've run with
it
for a few weeks, but for a really classy sound here's a trick:
compile the
kernel and then put it somewhere safe (ext2 partition, obviously) to
mellow
for a month and then boot into it at the last minute before you
start
recording an important session. Your clients will thank you.

Ben


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[Stratmangler]

First of April is a few weeks off yet :)


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[dyohn]

Whichever boots fastest sounds better first. :)


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[Mnyb]

Hush ! We already have at least two insane treads going on in the
audiophile forum already ;)

There are one or two crackpots on this forum that believes different OS
sounds different as -squeezeboxserver- .


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[ralphpnj]

What!?! Not even a mention of cryogenicly treated kernels, for shame!


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[Mnyb]

You must also hand type the source code into the compiler .

All in the spirit of TAS revolutionary discovery that digtial
information can not be copied without degrading , so by no mean use any
copy of the source code !


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[Waldo Pepper]

Post by Mnyb
You must also hand type the source code into the compiler .

Nah. Waste of time. I found it sounded even better by typing the hex
straight into a hex editor and saving that as a kernal. The sound was
much more warmer with added colour in the bass.


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[Archimago]

Post by Waldo Pepper
Nah. Waste of time. I found it sounded even better by typing the hex
straight into a hex editor and saving that as a kernal. The sound was
much more warmer with added colour in the bass.

That's pure BS Waldo and you know it! Hex coding sounded prickly as
hell with all those 16 sides...

BINARY is where it's at! Makes PCM sound DSD! Music of the gods, my
friend...

:-)


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[Waldo Pepper]

Post by Archimago
That's pure BS Waldo and you know it! Hex coding sounded prickly as
hell with all those 16 sides...
BINARY is where it's at! Makes PCM sound DSD! Music of the gods, my
friend...
:-)

OK. I will try using a laser to zap those cells in the ROM one by one
:)
Sadly I work with people who I could sell this idea to....


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[Mnyb]

You can't really make this up :)

http://www.lessloss.com/laminar-streamer-sd-player-p-207.html

These are the clowns behind the " blackbody " a product I usually link
too when we are having fun


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
You can't really make this up :)
http://www.lessloss.com/laminar-streamer-sd-player-p-207.html
These are the clowns behind the " blackbody " a product I usually link
too when we are having fun

Funny thing is one of your fellow Swedes linked to the laminar streamer
on the Stereophile forum back in December
(http://forum.stereophile.com/content/i-cant-wait) and of course I
responded by calling the product pure BS and of course I was dismissed
with some typical audiophile mumbo jumbo. Will audiophiles ever learn?


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[Mnyb]

Post by ralphpnj
Funny thing is one of your fellow Swedes linked to the laminar streamer
on the Stereophile forum back in December
(http://forum.stereophile.com/content/i-cant-wait) and of course I
responded by calling the product pure BS and of course I was dismissed
with some typical audiophile mumbo jumbo. Will audiophiles ever learn?

No they will not , all we can hope for is no new recruits and that that
nature will have it's way . the hobby dies with the last confused
audiophool , a very rich one a DAC would then cost 3B$ as he have the
finance the whole thing at 1 customer.

And a couple of decades later the hobby get resurrected by some cool
people :) (cue riding into the sunshine.... )


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[Quad]

F...and of course I responded by calling the product pure BS and of
course I was dismissed with some typical audiophile mumbo jumbo...

What goes around, comes around.

Don't get me wrong, this laminar thing is marketing fuzz at its worst.
But I really think you guys sometimes overdo.


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[Mnyb]

Post by Quad
What goes around, comes around.
Don't get me wrong, this laminar thing is marketing fuzz at its worst.
But I really think you guys sometimes overdo.

Yes probably , but think of it as a long lever :) as the majority of the
audio hoby have turned into this mess...

But that particular company is very very shady ,have a look at thier
blackbody http://www.lessloss.com/blackbody-p-200.html
And thier power conditioner ,seems equally suspicius ? skin effect
filter really :)

And are we overdiong it in this particular case ?

The whole company seems to totally geared to fool suspectibale audio
hobyists , the products are just a mean to ends .
They just make them to tick all the boxes in the typical audiophile new
age belief system and market heavilly from there ? actual performance is
not even an issue ?
They are also selling a speaker brand i actuallynknow nothing about so
they have mixed their voodo products with some actually working stuff
but thaats just clever .


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[Julf]

Post by Mnyb
You can't really make this up :)

Ah, a good one!

"Computer operating systems are extensive and require many services,
which all compete for processing time. These processes are allocated
according to what are called priorities. It is known through the
world-wide consensus of experienced computer audio tweakers that the
more services you can disengage, the better the resulting audio. The
stream becomes more laminar, less turbulent."


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[Mnyb]

Post by Julf
Ah, a good one!
"Computer operating systems are extensive and require many services,
which all compete for processing time. These processes are allocated
according to what are called priorities. It is known through the
world-wide consensus of experienced computer audio tweakers that the
more services you can disengage, the better the resulting audio. The
stream becomes more laminar, less turbulent."

That is actually a gem , this is how they do it laminar and turbulent
streams are fluid dynamics (hydrodynamics and aearodynamics) it has
nothing to do with information ,you could aswell ask about the taste of
bits , I want blueberry zeros and vanilla ones :)

But to non technical people this may actually sound like plausible
technobable , but its snipped from something completly different much of
the stuff these kind of scammers use for marketting blurb is real but
taken out of it's context .

Well much of the blackbody stuff is science fiction :)

Non technical people may take another viewpiont to see trough this ,does
not this look too good to be true , they can solve all "problems" an
audiophile seems to have and even some you did not know that you had ?


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
That is actually a gem , this is how they do it laminar and turbulent
streams are fluid dynamics (hydrodynamics and aearodynamics) it has
nothing to do with information ,you could aswell ask about the taste of
bits , I want blueberry zeros and vanilla ones :)
But to non technical people this may actually sound like plausible
technobable , but its snipped from something completly different much of
the stuff these kind of scammers use for marketting blurb is real but
taken out of it's context .
Well much of the blackbody stuff is science fiction :)
Non technical people may take another viewpiont to see trough this ,does
not this look too good to be true , they can solve all "problems" an
audiophile seems to have and even some you did not know that you had ?

The funny thing is that there several parallels between electrical
current and fluid flow. For example current and fluid both flow from
high to low potential. A tank acts like a capacitor, a check valve acts
like a diode, etc.

Another strange thing is that sometimes one wants a turbulent and not
laminar flow, however I can't think of good example right now.


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[Waldo Pepper]

Post by Mnyb
You can't really make this up :)
http://www.lessloss.com/laminar-streamer-sd-player-p-207.html
These are the clowns behind the " blackbody " a product I usually link
too when we are having fun

The speaker cable section had me laughing. They bark about preventing
the diode effect then go on to talk about directional cables.

Anything conducting better in one direction is a "diode" effect,
rectifying the signal and increasing harmonics.

When I was at school I am sure audio signals were AC:)

Still, if it makes them happy.

I am in the wrong business for sure.


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[Archimago]

Post by Julf
3) As if it needed saying, gcc4 is a disaster for sound quality. I
mean,
seriously if you want decent audio and you use gcc4 you may as well
be
recording with a tin can microphone.
...
Ben

Wow... If this dude is for real, he's either on serious drugs or in
need of serious drugs.

Curious, what's this strong disdain against gcc4?


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[agillis]

I like to age my kernel in a french oak cask for about 2 months. It not
only sounds better but tastes better as well! You get those great earthy
notes!


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[Julf]

Post by Archimago
Wow... If this dude is for real, he's either on serious drugs or in
need of serious drugs.

He is for real, but seems to have a pretty good sense for irony and
humour.. :)


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[Archimago]

Post by Julf
He is for real, but seems to have a pretty good sense for irony and
humour.. :)

Whew... Good to know. Alas, Nurse Ratched will be disappointed.


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[bonze]

Whew... Good to know. Alas, Nurse Ratched will be disappointed.Did you call off the guys with the big net?

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[Archimago]

Did you call off the guys with the big net?

Not yet... They're still hovering about. Gotta make sure it's not a
false alarm. :-)

The "funny" thing is that in reality, I have met folks who probably
would write stuff like this and be dead serious... Furthermore, I would
not be surprised at all to see a comment like the above as a letter to
TAS and not be questioned or ridiculed. (Heck, that TAS series was just
as nuts:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?93549-FUD-intellectual-honesty-digital-facts-and-the-TAS-articles)


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[SBGK]

you guys do know you are listening to a computer and not some magic
fairy box, of course different kernels will sound different and the way
they are compiled likewise.


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[ralphpnj]

Post by SBGK
you guys do know you are listening to a computer and not some magic
fairy box, of course different kernels will sound different and the way
they are compiled likewise.

I can only assume that by "compiled" you really mean "cooked" because
what I have experienced during my extensive listening tests to various
kernels is as follows, listed worst to best sounding:

16) microwaved canned yellow corn kernels

15) stove top heated canned yellow corn kernels

14) microwaved canned white corn kernels

13) stove top heated canned white corn kernels

12) microwaved frozen yellow corn kernels

11) stove top heated frozen yellow corn kernels

10) microwaved frozen white corn kernels

9) stove top heated frozen white corn kernels

8) microwaved fresh yellow corn kernels

7) stove top heated fresh yellow corn kernels

6) microwaved fresh white corn kernels

5) stove top heated fresh white corn kernels

4) grilled without husk yellow corn kernels

3) grilled without husk white corn kernels

2) grilled with husk still on yellow corn kernels

and finally, by a night and day margin

1) grilled with husk still on white corn kernels

Please understand that these results are not the final say on the is
largely unexplored area of audio, however these results should not taken
lightly unless by that one means lightly buttered. Lots more research
still needs to be done and I welcome any and all input from my fellow
audiophiles. So far we can safely conclude that white corn kernels
cooked by conventional, i.e. not microwaved, methods appear to sound
best.

Please feel free to cross post these findings to any audio related site.


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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
I can only assume that by "compiled" you really mean "cooked" because
what I have experienced during my extensive listening tests to various
16) microwaved canned yellow corn kernels
15) stove top heated canned yellow corn kernels
14) microwaved canned white corn kernels
13) stove top heated canned white corn kernels
12) microwaved frozen yellow corn kernels
11) stove top heated frozen yellow corn kernels
10) microwaved frozen white corn kernels
9) stove top heated frozen white corn kernels
8) microwaved fresh yellow corn kernels
7) stove top heated fresh yellow corn kernels
6) microwaved fresh white corn kernels
5) stove top heated fresh white corn kernels
4) grilled without husk yellow corn kernels
3) grilled without husk white corn kernels
2) grilled with husk still on yellow corn kernels
and finally, by a night and day margin
1) grilled with husk still on white corn kernels
Please understand that these results are not the final say on the is
largely unexplored area of audio, however these results should not taken
lightly unless by that one means lightly buttered. Lots more research
still needs to be done and I welcome any and all input from my fellow
audiophiles. So far we can safely conclude that white corn kernels
cooked by conventional, i.e. not microwaved, methods appear to sound
best.
Please feel free to cross post these findings to any audio related site.
Note: there are better ways to respond to some posts than resorting to
name calling.

OMG Ralph, you have just saved me YEARS of testing, tweaking, and
auditioning. Thankyou. These results demand at least a letter to TAS!


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
OMG Ralph, you have just saved me YEARS of testing, tweaking, and
auditioning. Thankyou. These results demand at least a letter to TAS!

Okay I wasn't supposed to let you know this but I am in the middle of
negotiations with TAS regarding having these very important findings
published. But please KEEP IT QUIET!


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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
Okay I wasn't supposed to let you know this but I am in the middle of
negotiations with TAS regarding having these very important findings
published. But please KEEP IT QUIET!

Good luck man! Hope it turns out to be a 3-parter and may the $$$ flow
in tandem.


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Good luck man! Hope it turns out to be a 3-parter and may the $$$ flow
in tandem. The hard work must be rewarded!

You wouldn't happen to know where I get a large frilly collar, an orange
afro wig and a big red stick-on nose? If I'm going to join the circus I
need to look the part.


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[Wombat]

Post by ralphpnj
You wouldn't happen to know where I get a large frilly collar, an orange
afro wig and a big red stick-on nose? If I'm going to join the circus I
need to look the part.

ROFL!

Something interesting. The second time i link to that side in a short
time :)
Seems this place has some very experienced and valuable listeners and
members while they developed some mercy for the metaphysical arguying
people. They just let them speak and give them a place.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/513-jriver-mac-vs-jriver-windows-sound-quality-comparison/#comments

It shows that Jriver does a 100% exactly job under Windows and Mac. To
my understanding there is no place for audible differences. Even 2
comletely different USB cables are in this test and surprise,
surprise...
Now if someone claims that even a Kernal does change sound while
complete different OSŽs donŽt the person claiming this should really
think about giving up computing and buy some working stuff from the
shelf.


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Wombat
ROFL!
Something interesting. The second time i link to that side in a short
time :)
Seems this place has some very experienced and valuable listeners and
members while they developed some mercy for the metaphysical arguying
people. They just let them speak and give them a place.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/513-jriver-mac-vs-jriver-windows-sound-quality-comparison/#comments
It shows that Jriver does a 100% exactly job under Windows and Mac. To
my understanding there is no place for audible differences. Even 2
comletely different USB cables are in this test and surprise,
surprise...
Now if someone claims that even a Kernal does change sound while
complete different OSŽs donŽt the person claiming this should really
think about giving up computing and buy some working stuff from the
shelf.

Nice link and well conducted tests. But any tests which do not validate
the conclusions obtained by golden eared professional high end audio
reviewers (aka clowns) are NOT VALID. So therefore JRiver used on a Mac
with $500 USB cables always sounds better than JRiver used on a PC with
$20 USB cables, otherwise who is going to buy advertising in their
magazines.


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[Julf]

Post by Wombat
Seems this place has some very experienced and valuable listeners and
members while they developed some mercy for the metaphysical arguying
people. They just let them speak and give them a place.

If you are talking about CA, I beg to differ. It is still dominated by
some very loud and obnoxious subjectivists, and the moderator pushes a
"you can't question someone's subjective impressions" policy. I think
Eloise summarizes it very well in her comment: "I'm sorry but when
people post subjective opinions that tweak x improves a system; and
someone says well all objective evidence points that the difference is
impossible they are told they are acting impolitely."


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Julf
If you are talking about CA, I beg to differ. It is still dominated by
some very loud and obnoxious subjectivists, and the moderator pushes a
"you can't question someone's subjective impressions" policy. I think
Eloise summarizes it very well in her comment: "I'm sorry but when
people post subjective opinions that tweak x improves a system; and
someone says well all objective evidence points that the difference is
impossible they are told they are acting impolitely."

To me the CA site is no different from any the high end audio magazines.
The site's founder aka The Computer Audiophile, to his credit, has
managed to ingratiate into the elite regions of high end audio and he is
now unwilling to do anything which might rock the boat and therefore
stop the flow of "test" equipment and any other perks which might come
his way for being a complaisant part the high end circus (hint he has
become one of those character with the big red noses).


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[SuperQ]

Post by ralphpnj
To me the CA site is no different from any the high end audio magazines.
The site's founder aka The Computer Audiophile, to his credit, has
managed to ingratiate into the elite regions of high end audio and he is
now unwilling to do anything which might rock the boat and therefore
stop the flow of "test" equipment and any other perks which might come
his way for being a complaisant part the high end circus (hint he has
become one of those character with the big red noses).

Yup, I had an argument with the guy about a month after CA started
posting stuff. It was yet another claim to which USB cable sounds
better. I tried to point out that the devices he was using were async
and buffered, and what he was claiming was impossible. All I got back
was "la la la, I can't hear you".


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[ralphpnj]

Post by SuperQ
Yup, I had an argument with the guy about a month after CA started
posting stuff. It was yet another claim to which USB cable sounds
better. I tried to point out that the devices he was using were async
and buffered, and what he was claiming was impossible. All I got back
was "la la la, I can't hear you".

So you got back a "la, la, la"

The cable company got some fools buying over priced USB cables.

And the CA (perhaps) got some nice speaker cables.


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[Wombat]

Post by Julf
If you are talking about CA, I beg to differ. It is still dominated by
some very loud and obnoxious subjectivists, and the moderator pushes a
"you can't question someone's subjective impressions" policy. I think
Eloise summarizes it very well in her comment: "I'm sorry but when
people post subjective opinions that tweak x improves a system; and
someone says well all objective evidence points that the difference is
impossible they are told they are acting impolitely."

You are right. I didnŽt read there much anymore because of getting
headaches when following the logic of some members there. Must be some
of the most paranormal hardliners are more or less directly involved in
the business that makes money with the gullible. The short snippest i
sometimes did read made me think it became better.
I see you often report things about HD releases. Strange that nearly for
every new HDtracks release there is a thread started with some innocent
question about its sound.
It often goes: How does it sound -> spectral plot posted -> that sounds
good!
By accident the adds on that page include HDtracks :)


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[Julf]

Post by Wombat
It often goes: How does it sound -> spectral plot posted -> that sounds
good!

The other variation is "How does it sound -> spectral plot posted
showing no HF energy or blatant upsample -> that sounds good!"


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[probedb]

Post by Wombat
It often goes: How does it sound -> spectral plot posted -> that sounds
good!

Indeed, I'm often surprised at how good my eyes are at hearing :)


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[garym]

Post by probedb
Indeed, I'm often surprised at how good my eyes are at hearing :)

Unrelated to this thread, but interestingly, your eyes may be important
in what you hear (the reason many of us prefer double blind testing to
remove biases in comparisons). See this for a very interesting example,

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[garym]

Well, there is a special form of the Gurk Effect whereby seeing the
price tag of a piece of gear, or reading the "review" of it in an
audiophile publication significantly affects what we hear :)

definitely! (for some at least)


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[Julf]

Post by garym
Unrelated to this thread, but interestingly, your eyes may be important
in what you hear (the reason many of us prefer double blind testing to
remove biases in comparisons).

Well, there is a special form of the Gurk Effect whereby seeing the
price tag of a piece of gear, or reading the "review" of it in an
audiophile publication significantly affects what we hear :)


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[probedb]

Post by garym
Unrelated to this thread, but interestingly, your eyes may be important
in what you hear (the reason many of us prefer double blind testing to
remove biases in comparisons). See this for a very interesting example,
http://youtu.be/G-lN8vWm3m0

That's a bit different from looking at spectrographs of files and saying
that because of something you're seeing that you can hear it though ;)

They are very important in your example though. It's a large reason why
'audiophiles' exist ;) This is more expensive than that, so it must be
better and I must buy it!


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[Apesbrain]

So far we can safely conclude that white corn kernels cooked by
conventional, i.e. not microwaved, methods appear to sound best.

At the risk of further controversy, I firmly believe they also -taste-
best.


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Apesbrain
At the risk of further controversy, I firmly believe they also -taste-
best.

Not so fast!

Microwaved canned yellow corn kernels (#15 - worst sounding) served on
fine Waterford china will always taste night and day better than grilled
with husk still on white corn kernels (#1 - best sounding) served on
thin paper plates. After all we are audiophiles and audiophiles
understand that the more expensive is always better than less expensive.
So think of the serving plates like USB cables - the more expensive the
cable/plate the better the sound/taste. Anything less we are simply tone
deaf Walmart shoppers listening to cheap plastic Chinese made
iBoomboxes.


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[Archimago]

Post by SBGK
you guys do know you are listening to a computer and not some magic
fairy box, of course different kernels will sound different and the way
they are compiled likewise.

Fixed it for you:
"you guys do know you are listening to a computer and not some magic
fairy box, of course different stable kernels will sound no different
and the way they are compiled probably irrelevant."


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[bluegaspode]

Where can I buy such an aged vortexbox?


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[Mnyb]

Post by agillis
I like to age my kernel in a french oak cask for about 2 months. It not
only sounds better but tastes better as well! You get those great earthy
notes!
Where can I buy such an aged vortexbox?

I'm sure Agalis can pre age the ISO's for us at an aditional cost :) or
maybe even cryo treat it at yet another aditional cost .

I just learned from another tread that audiophile brands has "a healty
disrepspect for cost" so go for it .


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