News Flash: PCM is dead, Long Live DSD!!

[ralphpnj]

Latest goings on in the world of clowns.

It's now official: PCM, regardless of bit depth and sample rate is
dead.

Long live DSD!!!

http://www.stereophile.com/content/news-flash-oppo-now-plays-dsd-files


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[Mnyb]

Sigh .

The oppo itself is good stuff .

But a pity (but expected) that stereophile is jumping on the DSD
bandwagon .

The last thing the audio world need is even more consumer formats
especially as we have several that are perfectly fine and transparent to
human listeners (pcm equal or greater than 16/44.1 )

Are we seing more "audiophile music brands" releasing more obscure
things that makes no musical sense ?
And ofcourse re release of the same old "cr*p" as usual but now in DSD .
Do we need "Jazz at the pawnshop" in DSD or any of them hifi show demo
records we all love ;)

What about -more- music being avaible as lossles in any form ? for
example dear old FLAC/WAV/ALAC 16/44.1 kHz


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[callesoroe]

Post by Mnyb
Sigh .
The oppo itself is good stuff .
But a pity (but expected) that stereophile is jumping on the DSD
bandwagon .
The last thing the audio world need is even more consumer formats
especially as we have several that are perfectly fine and transparent to
human listeners (pcm equal or greater than 16/44.1 )
Are we seing more "audiophile music brands" releasing more obscure
things that makes no musical sense ?
And ofcourse re release of the same old "cr*p" as usual but now in DSD .
Do we need "Jazz at the pawnshop" in DSD or any of them hifi show demo
records we all love ;)
What about -more- music being avaible as lossles in any form ? for
example dear old FLAC/WAV/ALAC 16/44.1 kHz

Totally agree with you in this. I have just purchased the new Eric
Clapton album "Old Socks" in 24/96 on HDTRACKS.com.
The album was available on release date in HD version FLAC. This is the
way to go.......More of that please :)


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[Mnyb]

Post by callesoroe
Totally agree with you in this. I have just purchased the new Eric
Clapton album "Old Socks" in 24/96 on HDTRACKS.com.
The album was available on release date in HD version FLAC. This is the
way to go.......More of that please :)

exactly is there maybe <1% of the legally downloadable content that is
lossles in any form amazon has mp3 etc , so what is the real problem ?
:)


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[Julf]

Post by callesoroe
Totally agree with you in this. I have just purchased the new Eric
Clapton album "Old Socks" in 24/96 on HDTRACKS.com.
The album was available on release date in HD version FLAC. This is the
way to go.......More of that please :)

Have you checked if it really is hi-res?


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Julf
Have you checked if it really is hi-res?

It doesn't matter because hi-res, CD res or low res it doesn't matter
because it's not DSD :)


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[callesoroe]

Post by Julf
Have you checked if it really is hi-res?

Sounds great. I have no reason to believe it is not. The bas response is
a lot better on my 24/96 files. This one too. And my Tact indicates it
is 24/96.


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Julf
Have you checked if it really is hi-res?
Sounds great. I have no reason to believe it is not. The bas response is
a lot better on my 24/96 files. This one too. And my Tact indicates it
is 24/96.

I think means for you to get all anal and check the frequency response
curves, spectrum analysis, dynamic range, etc. As far as I'm concerned,
if you say it sounds good then it sounds good. Plus remember that it is
not DSD so it's not worthwhile to start with :)


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[Mnyb]

Post by ralphpnj
I think means for you to get all anal and check the frequency response
curves, spectrum analysis, dynamic range, etc. As far as I'm concerned,
if you say it sounds good then it sounds good. Plus remember that it is
not DSD so it's not worthwhile to start with :)

Yes if it sounds good it is good it is almost irrelevant what kind of
"carrier" the music comes in if go equal or beyond CD res .

That means any lossles download does the trick if you get a good master
of the music , enjoy :)

And also an old analog master is not "hires" no matter how much we wish
it where , it's like carry around 1liter of water in a 10liter bucket .
However sometimes the seller has done the work to get the best possible
version or not ? Seems to be case by case .


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
And also an old analog master is not "hires" no matter how much we wish
it where , it's like carry around 1liter of water in a 10liter bucket.

Not so fast. An old analog master tape of an old fully analog recording
is just as valid a source for high resolution digital as a new high
resolution digital recording. The real issue is just how carefully the
analog master is converted to high resolution digital.

What should also be noted is that most mid-1980s digital recordings were
done at standard CD resolution (16bit or 20bit/44.1kHz) and these can
NEVER be made into high resolution digital no matter how much they are
upsampled.


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[Mnyb]

Post by ralphpnj
Not so fast. An old analog master tape of an old fully analog recording
is just as valid a source for high resolution digital as a new high
resolution digital recording. The real issue is just how carefully the
analog master is converted to high resolution digital.
What should also be noted is that most mid-1980s digital recordings were
done at standard CD resolution (16bit or 20bit/44.1kHz) and these can
NEVER be made into high resolution digital no matter how much they are
upsampled.

I would argue that analog and digital "resolution " is equal in practice
it is simply not true that analog recordings have infinite resolution
and what we need to do is sample them better and better .

Sn ratio is Sn ratio either analog or digital ( wath the video recently
linked on our forum )

And the SN ratio of the equipment use to record all sound that are on
these old recordings are less than CD res so CD resolution could capture
all relevant information .

So to do the practical remastering higher sampling may be needed if want
to proces the sound ,but you really are not to find any more lost
information .

However the newest breed of AD converters may be much better for other
reasons and thus make the enterprise worthwhile very worthwhile .


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
I would argue that analog and digital "resolution " is equal in practice
it is simply not true that analog recordings have infinite resolution
and what we need to do is sample them better and better .
Sn ratio is Sn ratio either analog or digital ( wath the video recently
linked on our forum )
And the SN ratio of the equipment use to record all sound that are on
these old recordings are less than CD res! so CD resolution could
capture all relevant information .
So to do the practical remastering higher sampling may be needed if you
want to proces the sound ,but you really are not to find any more lost
information because you used more bits .
However the newest breed of AD converters may be much better for other
reasons and thus make the enterprise worthwhile very worthwhile .

Agreed.


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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
I think means for you to get all anal and check the frequency response
curves, spectrum analysis, dynamic range, etc. As far as I'm concerned,
if you say it sounds good then it sounds good. Plus remember that it is
not DSD so it's not worthwhile to start with :)

It does matter in one significant way:
HDTracks 24/96 - $17.98
Amazon.com CD - $9.99 + free shipping if you get a couple other CD's
(total >$25)

If the 24/96 isn't native hi-res, and you get no material copy to
archive/resell, then it's pure rif-off, ain't it?

Agree that non-DSD is a good thing :-).


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
HDTracks 24/96 - $17.98
Amazon.com CD - $9.99 + free shipping if you get a couple other CD's
(total >$25)
If the 24/96 isn't native hi-res, and you get no material copy to
archive/resell, then it's pure rif-off, ain't it?
Agree that non-DSD is a good thing :-).

Absolutely correct. But then the whole high resolution game may be a rip
off. In fact for many of the high resolution titles that I own which I
feel have excellent sound, the improved sound may be the result of a
better master and not the result of the higher resolution. Funny thing
is I have way too much music already and spending time and money hunting
down a slightly improved versions of recordings I already own seems
fairly pointless.


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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
Absolutely correct. But then the whole high resolution game may be a rip
off. In fact for many of the high resolution titles that I own which I
feel have excellent sound, the improved sound may be the result of a
better master and not the result of the higher resolution. Funny thing
is I have way too much music already and spending time and money hunting
down a slightly improved versions of recordings I already own seems
fairly pointless.

I added the DR info... Looks like the same mastering so unlikely to
even see an improvement there!


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
I added the DR info... Looks like the same mastering so unlikely to
even see an improvement there!
http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=&search_album=old+sock

Wow it looks like the lossy version is slightly better :)


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[Archimago]

Going back to the Oppo and DSD for a moment... It looks like I'm going
to have to head off to my friend's place and test out what the RightMark
24/192 test tone measures like out of DSD64 & DSD128!


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[darrenyeats]

Post by ralphpnj
Wow it looks like the lossy version is slightly better :)

I've seen brick-wall waveforms in 16/44 turn into slightly less bricky
brick-wall waveforms when transcoded to MP3 ... I think it's an artifact
of the MP3 conversion, I'm not sure it's a "good" artifact but I'm
pretty sure it's not one a "bad" one!
Darren


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[ralphpnj]

Post by darrenyeats
I've seen brick-wall waveforms in 16/44 turn into slightly less bricky
brick-wall waveforms when transcoded to MP3 ... I think it's an artifact
of the MP3 conversion, I'm not sure it's a "good" artifact but I'm
pretty sure it's not one a "bad" one!
Darren

So does that mean that Pink Floyd's "The Wall" is double brick walled?


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[darrenyeats]

Post by ralphpnj
So does that mean that Pink Floyd's "The Wall" is double brick walled?

Yes, well maybe the re-master is, he-he!


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[ralphpnj]

Post by darrenyeats
Yes, well maybe the re-master is, he-he!

And that would just be another brick in the wall.


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[andy_c]

It's weird that Oppo decided to support DSD when they still don't do
DLNA gapless. Seems like messed up priorities to me.


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[Mnyb]

Post by andy_c
It's weird that Oppo decided to support DSD when they still don't do
DLNA gapless. Seems like messed up priorities to me.

That's weird., any streamer is useless without it.

For them to add dsd is not to surprising they seem to make products that
are versatile and support as many formats as possible


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[darrenyeats]

and spending time and money hunting down a slightly improved versions of
recordings I already own seems fairly pointless.

Hmm, I would say it's not pointless for recordings you listen to often.
The problem is identifying the best versions ... I am always worried
about shelling out for audiophile masters without really knowing whether
I'm going to be impressed or not. At least for normal purchases I can
listen on Spotify before I buy!
Darren


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[Julf]

Post by callesoroe
Sounds great. I have no reason to believe it is not. The bas response is
a lot better on my 24/96 files. This one too. And my Tact indicates it
is 24/96.

Well, yes, the Tact would indicate that, but it only looks at the file
format, not the actual sound contents of the file. The reason to believe
it is not is that there have been so many examples of
"standard-resolution" material upsampled (and zero-padded from 16 bits
to 24 bits) that I have started checking every one. Not every 96/24 or
192/24 file is hi-res - a lot of it is standard resolution CD material
with lots of empty space added afterwards. But the important thing is
that it sounds good to you.


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[darrenyeats]

Post by Julf
Well, yes, the Tact would indicate that, but it only looks at the file
format, not the actual sound contents of the file. The reason to believe
it is not is that there have been so many examples of
"standard-resolution" material upsampled (and zero-padded from 16 bits
to 24 bits) that I have started checking every one. Not every 96/24 or
192/24 file is hi-res - a lot of it is standard resolution CD material
with lots of empty space added afterwards. But the important thing is
that it sounds good to you.

Why would hi-rez have better bass response? Surely this is a mastering
thing?
Darren


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[garym]

Post by darrenyeats
Why would hi-rez have better bass response? Surely this is a mastering
thing?
Darren

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[Julf]

Post by darrenyeats
Why would hi-rez have better bass response?

Because hi-res is Better? :)


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