[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How flame wars start

[ralphpnj]

How flame wars start:

On most audiophile forums - someone posts something based solely on
subjective listening and containing statements or information that run
counter to known scientific facts. The thread moves along smoothly until
someone not familiar with the fantasy world of audiophiles responses to
the original post that it is total nonsense based solely on subjective
listening and containing statements or information that run counter to
known scientific facts and a flame war breaks out.

On this audiophile section - someone posts something based solely on
subjective listening and containing statements or information that run
counter to known scientific facts. A flame war breaks out.

I think that sums things up nicely.



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[Julf]

Post by ralphpnj
On most audiophile forums - someone posts something based solely on
subjective listening and containing statements or information that run
counter to known scientific facts. The thread moves along smoothly until
someone not familiar with the fantasy world of audiophiles responses to
the original post that it is total nonsense based solely on subjective
listening and containing statements or information that run counter to
known scientific facts and a flame war breaks out.
On this audiophile section - someone posts something based solely on
subjective listening and containing statements or information that run
counter to known scientific facts. A flame war breaks out.
I think that sums things up nicely.

Not really. Over here, it requires one of he few anti-science posters to
react, but then it goes down the usual alleys...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Julf
Not really. Over here, it requires one of he few anti-science posters to
react, but then it goes down the usual alleys...

Au contraire - the original poster, i.e. the person who started the
thread, would usually be one of the few anti-science posters so no
additional steps are required :)



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[cliveb]

For a flame war to maintain momentum, the participants need to have the
stamina to keep it going.

For many years the Slim Devices audiophile sub-forum was a polite place
where occasional outbreaks of name-calling might erupt, but soon died
down. It was populated by mainly rational folk who were prepared to
observe common human decencies even when they had disagreements. (I'm
thinking of Phil Leigh, Patrick Dixon and the like).

But in recent weeks and months, this forum seems to have attracted the
type who just won't let it go and is determined to escalate things until
the conversation resembles a pantomime ("oh yes it is", "oh no it isn't"
- repeat ad nauseum). They occupy both sides of the divide. They are in
danger of turning this forum into something resembling the worthless
cesspool that the rec.audio.opinion newsgroup became.



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[Julf]

Post by cliveb
But in recent weeks and months, this forum seems to have attracted the
type who just won't let it go and is determined to escalate things until
the conversation resembles a pantomime ("oh yes it is", "oh no it isn't"
- repeat ad nauseum).

Indeed. It even seems like some of those people come here just to start
arguments. I do think it is a bit of the "let' s try to dominate the
forum, and if we can' t do that, let's try to at least destroy any
rational discussion" strategy we have seen the same characters engage in
on other forums.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[DJanGo]

Post by ralphpnj
How flame wars start

In my opinion its quite simple to explain...


- Someone with some special interests meets someone with another
interest or knowledge
- both of them are hardcoded in their meanings and no one will get
away from his statepoint.
- eg - "i dont want to use the search engine - how to solve a already
solved Problem"
- "I dont want to know how its working i dont care how i can find a
solution or even give supporters a handful Infos thats needed to
answer my question"
- "You only get what you payed for" is a the all above statement equal
if the extra Money is worth to spend or not.



Gruss

Jan
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[ralphpnj]

Post by DJanGo
In my opinion its quite simple to explain...

- Someone with some special interests meets someone with another

Post by DJanGo
interest or knowledge

- both of them are hardcoded in their meanings and no one will get

Post by DJanGo
away from his statepoint.

- eg - "i dont want to use the search engine - how to solve a

Post by DJanGo
already solved Problem"

- "I dont want to know how its working i dont care how i can find a

Post by DJanGo
solution or even give supporters a handful Infos thats needed to
answer my question"

- "You only get what you payed for" is a the all above statement

Post by DJanGo
equal if the extra Money is worth to spend or not.

Not exactly. There are instances where one side of the argument is
clearly wrong or at the very least, mistaken. What you are saying is
that if one side of the argument is saying that 2+2=4 and the other side
is saying that 2+2=5 that they both are entitled to their opinions and
it simply a case of both of them being unwilling to yield.

Now please don't get me wrong - when the subject matter is in the area
of opinion and personal taste, like one movie being "better" than
another movie, then what you have written is correct. But discussions
technical issues should be based on facts and evidence and not opinions
and personal taste.

So when I state that it impossible, based on the science and technology
involved, for one properly functioning USB cable to "sound" better (i.e.
to produce a clearly detectable and better sound at the output of the
speaker) than another properly functioning USB cable, I am stating a
well known SCIENTIFIC FACT and not an opinion.

The fact that there are people who claim to hear a difference between
two USB cables doesn't change the FACT that this is impossible. All it
tells me is that these people are either lying or delusional. The ones
lying are the ones who can profit from lying (reviewers and
manufacturers) and ones who are delusional are the poor fools who are
helping the ones who lying to make their ill gotten profits.

On the other hand a discussion about the sound of one set of speakers
versus another set of speakers is one in which opinions and personal
tastes have a place.

Just wanted to clear that up.



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[DJanGo]

Post by ralphpnj
Just wanted to clear that up.

Yupp we're on the same side of that river.



Gruss

Jan
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[ralphpnj]

Post by DJanGo
Yupp we're on the same side of that river.

I realized after I wrote and posted my previous response that you were
most likely trying to point out the various different ways that flame
wars can start and in that light I agree with what you wrote. I was
hoping that my original post would be taken as a joke, which is what I
had intended. In fact I thought that it was rather funny but then I do
have a very warped sense of humor :)

Nonetheless it does trouble and anger me when someone responses to post
that has been made (by me or anyone else) that uses science and facts to
make a point with the old chestnut that I/they do not have an open mind.
See the thing about facts and truth is that they don't one to believe
them in order for them to be true. Believing that 2+2=5 doesn't change
the fact that 2+2=4, it just makes one's belief completely wrong.

Which is what puzzles me about all these claims constantly being made in
the audiophile world about how digital data is stored and transmitted
because if what they are claiming is indeed true then computers and
internet would all fail to work properly. All web pages would not
display correctly, emails would a garbled mess (which might improve some
of them) and simple things like check sums would be impossible. But
wherever there is money to be made using FUD (fear, uncertainty and
doubt) there will be someone willing to lie to get their hands on that
money.

Just as blood is thicker than water, money is the thickest of all.



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[arnyk]

Believing that 2+2=5 doesn't change the fact that 2+2=4, it just makes
one's belief completely wrong.

Unfortunately Most Audiophile culture believes that:

(1) Arithmetic doesn't matter so 2 + 2 = 5 may sound a little strange
but so what?

(2) Their personal Casual, Sighted Audiophile Evaluations are what
matters most

(3) Science doesn't apply to Audio

Which is what puzzles me about all these claims constantly being made in
the audiophile world about how digital data is stored and transmitted
because if what they are claiming is indeed true then computers and
internet would all fail to work properly. All web pages would not
display correctly, emails would a garbled mess (which might improve some
of them) and simple things like check sums would be impossible. But
wherever there is money to be made using FUD (fear, uncertainty and
doubt) there will be someone willing to lie to get their hands on that
money.

Which gets back to that situation where the claims may say that 2 + 2 =
5, but so what - it is Audio, isn't it?

Just as blood is thicker than water, money is the thickest of all.

Roger that!


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[ralphpnj]

Post by arnyk
(1) Arithmetic doesn't matter so 2 + 2 = 5 may sound a little strange
but so what?
(2) Their personal Casual, Sighted Audiophile Evaluations are what
matters most
(3) Science doesn't apply to Audio
Which gets back to that situation where the claims may say that 2 + 2 =
5, but so what - it is Audio, isn't it?
Roger that!

Thanks for clearing that up! :)



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[DJanGo]

Post by arnyk
(1) Arithmetic doesn't matter so 2 + 2 = 5 may sound a little strange
but so what?

- Arithmetic does matter!
- with my platin USB Cable -handmade from 19 Vigins- i've get on a
input of 2 a output of 2.44
- Since 2.44 is rounded down - i'll notice 2.0 for the two Summands
- Since 4.88 is rounded up - my sum is 5 ;-p

Gruss

Jan
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[ralphpnj]

DJanGo wrote:
- Arithmetic does matter!
- with my platin USB Cable -handmade from 19 Virgins- i've get on a

Post by DJanGo
input of 2 a output of 2.44

- Since 2.44 is rounded down - i'll notice 2.0 for the two

Post by DJanGo
Summands

- Since 4.88 is rounded up - my sum is 5 ;-p
http://youtu.be/jHPOzQzk9Qo

Post by DJanGo
scnr

So that proves that 2+2 does indeed equal 5! Brilliant!

And by the way a little Monty Python is always welcome! Thanks!



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[jh901]

Post by arnyk
(1) Arithmetic doesn't matter so 2 + 2 = 5 may sound a little strange
but so what?
(2) Their personal Casual, Sighted Audiophile Evaluations are what
matters most
(3) Science doesn't apply to Audio

Logical fallacies or otherwise flat out misrepresentations. Well done.
Science!



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[Julf]

Post by jh901
Logical fallacies or otherwise flat out misrepresentations. Well done.
Science!

Well, I am sure you will explain, using facts and logic, what was wrong
with those statements.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[jh901]

Post by Julf
Well, I am sure you will explain, using facts and logic, what was wrong
with those statements.

Do you ever take yourself seriously? Are you an audiophile? Are you
proud to align yourself with ArnyK?



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[Julf]

Post by jh901
Do you ever take yourself seriously?

Sometimes, but fortunately my wife usually puts me right.

Post by jh901
Are you an audiophile?

No. Just someone who likes good sound quality.

Post by jh901
Are you proud to align yourself with ArnyK?

I am proud to support evidence-based science rather than faith and old
wives tales. I might not always like the way some people communicate,
but I put more weight on content than on form.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[jh901]

Post by Julf
No. Just someone who likes good sound quality.

Is it ok if there are some who desire even better sound quality than
what you are happy with?

Post by Julf
I am proud to support evidence-based science rather than faith and old
wives tales.

Do you see how you are relying on logical fallacy here? None of the top
audiophile amp, DAC, or speaker designers rely on faith or wives' tales.
I don't either and neither do any number of informed audiophiles. It
isn't appropriate to more or less libel everyone involved.

If I report that I'm hearing a dramatic improvement in various aspects
of sound quality when I switch to my current front end from the
Transporter, then the last thing you should be thinking is that I'll
have to prove it by setting up a testing environment that you approve
of. Design matters. Quality of parts matters. The reputation and
prior achievements of the head engineer matters. Yes, they engineer
with sound principle. They do measure and test. They also listen. If
you really enjoy sound quality then there is no better time to go for
it.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
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__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
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[ralphpnj]

Post by jh901
Is it ok if there are some who desire even better sound quality than
what you are happy with?
Do you see how you are relying on logical fallacy here? None of the top
audiophile amp, DAC, or speaker designers rely on faith or wives' tales.
I don't either and neither do any number of informed audiophiles. It
isn't appropriate to more or less libel everyone involved.
If I report that I'm hearing a dramatic improvement in various aspects
of sound quality when I switch to my current front end from the
Transporter, then the last thing you should be thinking is that I'll
have to prove it by setting up a testing environment that you approve
of. Design matters. Quality of parts matters. The reputation and
prior achievements of the head engineer matters. Yes, they engineer
with sound principle. They do measure and test. They also listen. If
you really enjoy sound quality then there is no better time to go for
it.

Please see my recent post in the "What is the best top end player now ?"
thread
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?96407-What-is-the-best-top-end-player-now&p=822193&viewfull=1#post822193)
for my response to the above.



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[Julf]

Post by jh901
Is it ok if there are some who desire even better sound quality than
what you are happy with?

Of course. It's your money, and whatever makes you happy...

Post by jh901
Do you see how you are relying on logical fallacy here?

No - I think you just don't understand the logic.

Post by jh901
None of the top audiophile amp, DAC, or speaker designers rely on faith
or wives' tales.

True, as long as we talk about real designers, and not just "designers"
who take a basic circuit (or application note supplied by a chip
manufacturer) and throw in some "audiophile grade" parts and a fancy
box.

Post by jh901
I don't either and neither do any number of informed audiophiles.

As soon as you claim "I know what I hear" or "I know DSD sounds better
than 44.1/16 PCM ", you actually do.

Post by jh901
If I report that I'm hearing a dramatic improvement in various aspects
of sound quality when I switch to my current front end from the
Transporter, then the last thing you should be thinking is that I'll
have to prove it by setting up a testing environment that you approve
of.

Quite. You only need to do that if you want us to believe you.

Post by jh901
Design matters. Quality of parts matters.

Yes, but is no guarantee - the design still has to be verified.

Post by jh901
The reputation and prior achievements of the head engineer matters.

Not really.

Post by jh901
Yes, they engineer with sound principle. They do measure and test.

Yes, they base their designs on science. Because what they design is
technology - applied science. The same science we need to apply when
analyzing an discussing the gear, unless subjective preferences and
impressions is all we are interested in.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[arnyk]

Post by jh901
Is it ok if there are some who desire even better sound quality than
what you are happy with?

Of course it is OK, but don't I get to ask by what means the claim that
better sound quality than what I are happy with even exists?

Inherently highly flawed sighted casual audiophile evaluations in a
untreated room using a random collection of audio gear assembled by a
person with no technical credentials?

Post by jh901
Do you see how you are relying on logical fallacy here? None of the top
audiophile amp, DAC, or speaker designers rely on faith or wives' tales.

Except they do seem to do that.

For example:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/non-oversampling-nos-dacs-list

Post by jh901
I don't either and neither do any number of informed audiophiles.

Based on what credentials of yours that are necessarily that much better
than mine?

Based on what kind of technical tests that re necessarily that much
better than mine, or say Archimago's? You do know who Archimago is and
you have read his Blog, right?

Post by jh901
It isn't appropriate to more or less libel everyone involved.

The you are admitting that your libeling of me was inappropriate? Thank
you! What are you going to do to correct your error?

Post by jh901
If I report that I'm hearing a dramatic improvement in various aspects
of sound quality when I switch to my current front end from the
Transporter, then the last thing you should be thinking is that I'll
have to prove it by setting up a testing environment that you approve
of.

Says you as you pat yourself on your back after you libel me and many
other well-informed people?

Post by jh901
Design matters. Quality of parts matters.

Of course they do, but how do you know what constitutes good design and
parts quality? What accredited school do you have a degree in Electrical
Engineering from?

Post by jh901
The reputation and prior achievements of the head engineer matters.

Of course those things matter, so what are your credentials?


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[jh901]

Post by arnyk
Of course it is OK, but don't I get to ask by what means the claim that
better sound quality than what I are happy with even exists?
Inherently highly flawed sighted casual audiophile evaluations in a
untreated room using a random collection of audio gear assembled by a
person with no technical credentials?

Do you recommend the audio components in your primary system to others?
Are you pleased with the sound? If these components are representative
of the best achievable sound quality, then I'll be interested.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
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[arnyk]

Post by jh901
Do you recommend the audio components in your primary system to others?

Yes but of course only the speakers affect the SQ to any degree.

Post by jh901
Are you pleased with the sound?

Of course.

Post by jh901
If these components are representative of the best achievable sound
quality in your experience, then I'll be interested.

Convince me that you are worthy of them!


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[jh901]

Post by arnyk
Convince me that you are worthy of them!

Why does it even occur to you to say that? Here we are on an enthusiast
forum and I have to prove that I'm worthy of advice?

It's taken many, many years to get to the point where my system
currently is. I've built a pretty decent music collection, which grows
by the week. I've never enjoyed listening to music in the foreground
any more than I do now. It isn't clear to me why this forum is the
wrong place to engage in meaningful discussion.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
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[arnyk]

Post by jh901
Why does it even occur to you to say that? Here we are on an enthusiast
forum and I have to prove that I'm worthy of advice?

After watching you work over other participants on the grounds of their
credentials and worthiness to give advice, I figured that would be
something that you would understand.

Or, are there one set of rules for you, and another set for everybody
else?


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[jh901]

Post by arnyk
After watching you work over other participants on the grounds of their
credentials and worthiness to give advice, I figured that would be
something that you would understand.
Or, are there one set of rules for you, and another set for everybody
else?

While I think that your description of my most unfortunate posts goes a
bit far, I do offer my apologies. It isn't fair to expect to be treated
with civility and respect without returning the favor.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
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[Julf]

Post by jh901
It's taken many, many years to get to the point where my system
currently is.

But ow have those years been spent? Purchasing gear recommended by
others?

Post by jh901
I've built a pretty decent music collection, which grows by the week.

So have many of us, but I don't think any of the recent discussions here
have actually been about music.

Post by jh901
It isn't clear to me why this forum is the wrong place to engage in
meaningful discussion.

It isn't, so feel fee to do just that,



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[ralphpnj]

Post by arnyk
(1) Arithmetic doesn't matter so 2 + 2 = 5 may sound a little strange
but so what?

Except of course for numbers like 32bit and 384kHz, which are clearly
better than 16bit and 44.1kHz. However when it comes to vinyl LPs versus
CDs or tubes versus solid state than the numbers once again don't
matter. So I guess it not that arithmetic doesn't matter but that
arithmetic only -*selectively-* matters.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[bonze]

Post by Julf
Indeed. It even seems like some of those people come here just to start
arguments. I do think it is a bit of the "let' s try to dominate the
forum, and if we can' t do that, let's try to at least destroy any
rational discussion" strategy we have seen the same characters engage in
on other forums.

And they've now progressed from the "let's try to get anyone who may
know what they are talking about banned" to "let's try to get the forum
where we lost an argument closed" :)



LMS Version: 7.9
TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3 - WHS 2011
2x Touch, 3x SB3
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[arnyk]

Post by Julf
Not really. Over here, it requires one of he few anti-science posters to
react, but then it goes down the usual alleys...

Agreed.

In the end there is Science and anti-Science.

A Scientific viewpoint leads to consensus because the findings of
science in these days are well known and consistent.

However, the findings of Science range from irritating to reprehensible
to people who do not wish to follow the discipline of the findings of
science.

Take away Science and you are left with the rule by the person with the
loudest voice, the one who is most effective at insults, rhetoric
unfettered by reason, and and most effective at scheming and
humiliation. There can be no mutually agreed upon consensus within
anti-Science.

Among audiophiles the most common form of anti-Science is Solipsism -
the belief that the Universe is exactly as I perceive it, and nobody
else's perceptions are meaningful to me. In short, I've got the best
sounding DAC and I don't know why the rest of you Zombies are happy with
all of that mid-fi trash. ;-)


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[w3wilkes]

Post by arnyk
Agreed.
In the end there is Science and anti-Science.

Oh, there's also Weird Science...


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2 Duets - 1 for upstairs and 1 for downstairs
Rock Solid with LMS 7.8.0 and WHS 2011
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