What is really affecting the sound transmission?

[JJ77]

I do not know a lot about what is happening with my setup other than the
sound coming out pleases me. But to try and understand it better, I have
read a lot on these forums etc, but still am confused. My set up is an
Asus laptop with a HiFace 2 USB converter going to a Audio Authority
digital Switch (coax). I also have a Squeezebox Touch (EDO to 192 klHz)
hooked into the digital Switch via coax. (all wireless to a NAS). My
Switch goes into a NuForce HDP DAC vis coax. I use JR media center on
laptop. I have used JRMC to convert several DSD files in a flac
container 176kHz to store on a Vortexbox 3T NAS as well as 96kHz and a
few 192Khz digital downloads.

My question is what really is affecting the sound. I can see with the
laptop (music source wireless from Vortexbox), that it is going straight
into the DAC so the DAC would be the main source for the sound
processing (is this correct?). But on the squeezebox, I am going from
the NAS wireless to the SBT so does it also pass through the signal (ie
not using the SBT DAC) to the NuForce DAC for processing the sound?

I use Grado headphones plugged into the NuForce DAC. Now, if I were to
plug those directly into the SBT, then I would be hearing what the SBT
is processing on its internal DAC. Is that correct?

I also have a media Center vis optical cable going into the switch box /
Nuforce DAC. I am assuming this works the same as the SBT? I know these
are very fundamental questions, but it would help me better understand
how it all works.

Also does a DSD to DSD dac sound that much better than a converted DSD
(flac)file? The converted files to my ear sound pretty spectacular. I
have heard the same DSDtoDSD files on another persons setup but
comparing would be apples and oranges. But in this case using the same
headphones, I couldn't tell the difference. Thank You for your time


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[garym]

But on the squeezebox, I am going from the NAS wireless to the SBT so
does it also pass through the signal (ie not using the SBT DAC) to the
NuForce DAC for processing the sound?

yes, assuming you connect the SBT to the DAC via SBT digital out (s/pdif
coax or optical toslink, or USB if using EDO).

I use Grado headphones plugged into the NuForce DAC. Now, if I were to
plug those directly into the SBT, then I would be hearing what the SBT
is processing on its internal DAC. Is that correct?

yes



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > SqueezePlay
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Streaming - Spotify
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[jimbobvfr400]

Also bear in mind that the touch will be bit perfect unless you use the
digital volume control, go to low and it can have a detrimental effect
on the sound. I heard figures of ~75% and above being desirable.

Personally I can't tell any difference down to about 50 if I increase
the volume on my amp to compensate.

I'm not going to open yet another can of worms with regard to DSD but I
will say I personally think DSD is a con, any benefits are almost
entirely down to the mastering and recording process, actually my
opinions are the same for 24 bit vs 16bit as well.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk




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[JJ77]

Appreciate both of your replies and the DSD and 16/24 bit comments.


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[Daverz]

Post by JJ77
Also does a DSD to DSD dac sound that much better than a converted DSD
(flac)file? The converted files to my ear sound pretty spectacular. I
have heard the same DSDtoDSD files on another persons setup but
comparing would be apples and oranges. But in this case using the same
headphones, I couldn't tell the difference. Thank You for your time

How are you doing the conversion? On the fly?

If you're DAC is capable of decoding DoP, (DSD-over-PCM), then you can
encode DFF or DSF fiels as FLAC/DoP files. The DSD data is not
converted to PCM, only "packaged" as PCM for transport, and is decoded
as DSD on the DAC side. At least that's my understanding of how it
works. You can use Foobar or dsf2flac to do this.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=119364.0

I only have 2 DSD downloads so far, so I won't comment on whether DSD is
a con. If they sound good, and prices are not too bad, then I'm not
going to worry too much about the format. Currently the prices are
pretty ridiculous, and the selection is minuscule (unless you can rip
SACDs).


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[JJ77]

Post by Daverz
How are you doing the conversion? On the fly?
For my NAS storage I used JR Media center to convert. If I play the
original DSF file on my laptop, JRM converts on the fly. The laptop uses
a HiFace 2 USB converted out by coax to the DAC (Current DAC does not
play the original DSF file...).
If you're DAC is capable of decoding DoP, (DSD-over-PCM), then you can
encode DFF or DSF fiels as FLAC/DoP files. The DSD data is not
converted to PCM, only "packaged" as PCM for transport, and is decoded
as DSD on the DAC side. At least that's my understanding of how it
works. You can use Foobar or dsf2flac to do this.
The squeezebox info screen shows File Format: FLAC, Bitrate: xxxx VBR (
x kbps vary by song), Sample Rate: 176 kHz, Sample Size: 24 Bits on
converted file. The Dac plays thistype file but will not play a raw DSF
file as Sqeezebox shows that file empty.
http:/www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=119364.0
I only have 2 DSD downloads so far, so I won't comment on whether DSD is
a con. If they sound good, and prices are not too bad, then I'm not
going to worry too much about the format. Currently the prices are
pretty ridiculous, and the selection is minuscule (unless you can rip
SACDs).

I have DSF downloads from Blue Coast Records and when signed up to their
site they offer many specials. I have got free downloads, some albums
for $12 and some for 50% off. I have paid full price for some at
$30-$40. Acoustic sounds albums seem to be all around $24.98. I tend to
agree the mastering/recording process makes a huge difference. One
recording that sound especially good over my 96kHz collection is Shelby
Lynne DSF Just A Little Lovin from AS and all of Blue Coasts in house
recorded music. I have some 96 kHz that sound as good as the DSF
converted files (of course that is with my ears so subjective
analysis). I guess until I get a DSD DAC working with my system, I
really don't know how a DSF to DSF file would sound relative to the
converted files I am playing now.


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[Archimago]

...
Just listened to some Flac Masters from Linn /records at 44.1Khz 24bit.
Although these are very good, The DSF converted files do sound more
detailed and "live" to me (again they are not the same songs/recordings
so very subjective.). I can really see where you have to decide on your
own what is the best sound for you. I do like the DSD (DSF) files as you
can convert them to any format you want and they sound good. If the
conversion software develops to a higher degree, then possibly the DSF
conversions themselves in the future will be even better??

Welcome to the forum JJ. As you know, there are many opinions out there
in audiophile land. Many variables are of course involved in all of this
that it's often difficult to separate the "wheat from the chaff" as the
proverb goes. As a hobby, it's fun to explore the variables and come to
one's own conclusion on things...

I like keeping things as the paraphrase from Einstein goes "as simple as
possible, but not simpler". And I personally find that having some
objective analysis keeps me "honest" with myself and what I "think" I
hear. This is especially significant when we're dealing with directions
the industry "pushes" on the consumer especially these days when what is
offered as improvements enter into the realm of the most likely
imperceptible.

In this regard, I would suggest the good ol' rules of thumb in terms of
sound quality and what affects it:
Good speakers/headphones (hard to tweak these)
Good room (potential to tweak or correct for)
Good music (what it's all about!)

I believe that essentially everything else makes a difference but I
would advocate not wasting too much time on it if it takes away from
musical enjoyment. Which CD player/DVD/streamer, DAC, amplifier, DSD vs.
PCM, sampling rates above 44kHz, 16 vs. 24-bits, cables all have a
*very* steep slope of diminishing return (especially those cables!) to
the point where there's really no reason to get too excited over the
stuff. Standards are high these days such that one doesn't need to have
a millionaire's system to feel that you're not missing out.

Furthermore, much of this becomes purely subjective at some point as
well - for example solid state vs. tubes. Even if one hears a
difference, the value of the difference is usually idiosyncratic to the
listener - not really worth arguing about unless there's an agreed-upon
sense of what is to be achieved.

Regarding the DSD "sound" and conversion. Yes, a good DSD recording
sounds good whether native or converted to PCM. There are volume level
idiosyncrasies with DSD conversion such that one has to be careful that
the conversion does not lead to clipping (this was an issue back in the
day with the first batch of SACDs). Along with that is what to do with
all that high frequency noise created by noise shaping. Some converters
like Weiss Saracon (professional software, expensive) will
characteristically filter almost everything >40kHz which means there's
no benefit to PCM files over 24/88kHz (a good example is Channel
Classics - do not buy the 24/192 files because there's nothing over
40kHz). Other software like the free KORG AudioGate will retain more of
the ultrasonic content so 24/176 or 192 will look like there's "stuff"
there, but it's noise. From my experience with JRiver, it's more like
AudioGate in this respect. I don't think it matters for the most part
unless high-frequency content causes intermodulation distortion with
one's speakers or strains the amplifier into oscillation. Most DSD DACs
will impose a low pass filter so I do appreciate Saracon for imposing
the filter in the software conversion itself.

We must remember that there are limits to DSD, just like any other
format. Many folks (including myself) feel that there's no point to
DSD64 (current typical 2.8MHz sampling rate) simply because technically
it isn't significantly better than 24/96 PCM; and is probably less
accurate. To convert from DSD64 --> 24/88+ PCM will lead to small
rounding type errors. Furthermore, if you have a DSP process in there
like room correction filters, these do not function natively in DSD so
that conversion to PCM will have to happen. Bottom line is that the
purported benefits to DSD don't seem to be significant when compared to
the limitations. Companies would like to sell you a new DAC for the DSD
feature of course!

It's just one of those things that gets argued upon ad nauseum but
unlikely anyone ends up feeling satisfied with. The fact that you liked
the JRiver conversion without any tweaking is good enough evidence to
suggest that the PCM version moves you. Enjoy :-)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[JJ77]

Appreciate your perspective and in depth comments. I came away we
something I should have known all along. To just enjoy the music. :)


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[[e-mail]]

ok


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[JJ77]

Post by Daverz
How are you doing the conversion? On the fly?
For my NAS storage I used JR Media center to convert. If I play the
original DSF file on my laptop, JRM converts on the fly. The laptop uses
a HiFace 2 USB converted out by coax to the DAC (Current DAC does not
play the original DSF file...).
If you're DAC is capable of decoding DoP, (DSD-over-PCM), then you can
encode DFF or DSF fiels as FLAC/DoP files. The DSD data is not
converted to PCM, only "packaged" as PCM for transport, and is decoded
as DSD on the DAC side. At least that's my understanding of how it
works. You can use Foobar or dsf2flac to do this.
The squeezebox info screen shows File Format: FLAC, Bitrate: xxxx VBR (
x kbps vary by song), Sample Rate: 176 kHz, Sample Size: 24 Bits on
converted file. The Dac plays thistype file but will not play a raw DSF
file as Sqeezebox shows that file empty.
http:/www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=119364.0
I only have 2 DSD downloads so far, so I won't comment on whether DSD is
a con. If they sound good, and prices are not too bad, then I'm not
going to worry too much about the format. Currently the prices are
pretty ridiculous, and the selection is minuscule (unless you can rip
SACDs).

I have DSF downloads from Blue Coast Records and when signed up to their
site they offer many specials. I have got free downloads, some albums
for $12 and some for 50% off. I have paid full price for some at
$30-$40. Acoustic sounds albums seem to be all around $24.98. I tend to
agree the mastering/recording process makes a huge difference. One
recording that sound especially good over my 96kHz collection is Shelby
Lynne DSF Just A Little Lovin from AS and all of Blue Coasts in house
recorded music. I have some 96 kHz that sound as good as the DSF
converted files (of course that is with my ears so subjective
analysis). I guess until I get a DSD DAC working with my system, I
really don't know how a DSF to DSF file would sound relative to the
converted files I am playing now.


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