[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to connect Touch?

[celo]

The more I want to make things better, the more I get confused. I have
read a lot of threads but it actually made me more confused. So, here
are some questions.

1-Should I use active or passive preamp between the Touch and my TPA3116
board amp (it has no volume)?

2-Should I add volume pot to my board (or use fully finished/assembled
TPA3116 with volume) and directly connect my Touch to my amp via
analog?

3-I used to have Schitt Bifrost DAC going between my Touch and amp and I
liked it but do not know if it was THAT better than Touch's analog.
Should I add a DAC again?

4- If I add a DAC and/or directly connecting the Touch to the preamp or
amp, should I set the Touch's volume to 100% fixed and use preamp/amp's
volume pot?

5-Should I buy a DAC with digital volume to connect it to the Touch? Is
using volume via Touch/Software better/worse than using DAC's digital
volume?

I kindly ask to reply with simple language as I am not too technical :)


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[cliveb]

Post by celo
5-Should I buy a DAC with digital volume to connect it to the Touch? Is
using volume via Touch/Software better/worse than using DAC's digital
volume?

I won't get into a debate about whether digital volume control per se is
a good or bad thing.

But if you feel happy with digital volume control, then rest assured
that the Touch (probably) implements it as well as any other device. I
know for sure that on the older models (SB3, Transporter, etc) the
digital volume control is very cleverly arranged so that every step down
to around -30dB results in absolutely NO rounding errors whatsoever if
the source is 16 bit. Presumably the Touch's firmware will have
inherited this enlightened arrangement. (I don't own a Touch so can't
say for sure).



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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[StephenPG]

I have a Touch and have tried it into a quad 306 and esl63's.

Sounds just fine.


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[Julf]

Post by celo
1-Should I use active or passive preamp between the Touch and my TPA3116
board amp (it has no volume)?

Why would you need a preamp?

Post by celo
2-Should I add volume pot to my board (or use fully finished/assembled
TPA3116 with volume) and directly connect my Touch to my amp via analog?

A standard pot probably has more non-linearity than anything else in
your system (speakers not included).

Post by celo
3-I used to have Schitt Bifrost DAC going between my Touch and amp and I
liked it but do not know if it was THAT better than Touch's analog.
Should I add a DAC again?

Yes, if it makes you feel better or if you like the way it colours the
sound.

Post by celo
4- If I add a DAC and/or directly connecting the Touch to the preamp or
amp, should I set the Touch's volume to 100% fixed and use preamp/amp's
volume pot?

Only if it is easier to use the preamp/amp remote control than to use
the Touch one.

Post by celo
5-Should I buy a DAC with digital volume to connect it to the Touch?

See answer to 3.

Post by celo
Is using volume via Touch/Software better/worse than using DAC's digital
volume?

Depends on how good/bad the volume control on your DAC is.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[mlsstl]

You say you are not too technical, but see if this helps your
understanding.

It is generally better to have a good match between the output of a
source device (your Touch player) and the amplifier being used to power
the speakers. While there is a general range of output voltage one can
expect from a source, some have higher output and others have less.

Same with amplifiers, which take a low-voltage, low-current signal and
amplify it to a higher-voltage, higher-current level so the speakers can
be driven. The "input sensitivity" (the amount of input voltage it takes
to produce full power from the amp) can vary with the brand & model of
amp involved.

And then you have the recorded volume of the music itself -- digital
files, just like CDs and LP records, can be recorded at different
levels. If you've ever switched songs and immediately had to adjust the
volume up or down to maintain the same sound level, this is what's going
on.

My amp happens to have a volume control, but I set the amp's volume
control at a level where softly recorded music played with the Touch
volume at max gives me the loudest volume I would normally want in my
listening room. That means that when I play a loudly recorded song, I'll
have to turn the Touch's volume down a bit more, but it keeps me from
running the Touch volume control at a very low setting.

Typically, with a digital volume control (i.e., the Touch) you get the
best sound quality from the player when its volume control is in the top
quarter or third of its range. If that is what happens when you plug
your Touch straight into the amp, then I wouldn't worry about the
subject any more.


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[Mnyb]

What mlsstl describe is an attempt to get a good "gain structure" or
gain staging .

Sources can have to high output level and most likely both amps and
preamps can have to much gain .

If your always use the bottom half of you volume control your system has
to much gain somewhere .
And subsequently you amplify input noise and stuff , probably at every
stage , at the preamp and then the power amp .

This board amp TPA3116 ? Does it have any built in gain adaption ? If
not you can build your own L-pads ( a couple of resistors per channel )
or buy passive attenuators to put on the rca inputs to lower the gain by
-10dB for example ? Then you can happily use the Touchs own volume .
Fixed attenuators or L-pads can be built with very good precision
compared to a potentiometer , as it just a bunch of low power resistor
it cost peanuts to buy very hig precision ones .

( OT , best case would be if the stuff had actuall gain adjustment or
proper gain to begin with , attenuation solve a large chunk of the
problem , but amps still amplify itsp's self generated noise at its own
input , there is not only SN-ratio stuff have absolute noise levels to )



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by Mnyb
What mlsstl describe is an attempt to get a good "gain structure" or
gain staging .
Sources can have to high output level and most likely both amps and
preamps can have to much gain .
If your always use the bottom half of you volume control your system has
to much gain somewhere .
And subsequently you amplify input noise and stuff , probably at every
stage , at the preamp and then the power amp .

Thanks - I learned something only by listening in.

I have a Yamaha !-720
(http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/a-720.shtml) integrated
amplifier which I am only using at less than a third of the volume
control with my Monitor Audio Bronze speakers
(http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649109800-monitor_audio_bronze_3_speakers/images/702957/).

But the amplifier has a Muting button which reduces the volume output so
that I have to set the volume to the upper half. So I should use this
than? I'll try it out

Rainer

Post by Mnyb
This board amp TPA3116 ? Does it have any built in gain adaption ? If
not you can build your own L-pads ( a couple of resistors per channel )
or buy passive attenuators to put on the rca inputs to lower the gain by
-10dB for example ? Then you can happily use the Touchs own volume .
Fixed attenuators or L-pads can be built with very good precision
compared to a potentiometer , as it just a bunch of low power resistor
it cost peanuts to buy very hig precision ones .
( OT , best case would be if the stuff had actuall gain adjustment or
proper gain to begin with , attenuation solve a large chunk of the
problem , but amps still amplify itsp's self generated noise at its own
input , there is not only SN-ratio stuff have absolute noise levels to )
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux
http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[tcutting]

Your Yamaha amp should already be optimized for a standard "line" level
which the Touch provides (use one of the "TAPE" or "AUX" inputs, NOT the
PHONO!). I would say don't add anything between the Touch and your 720.
I would use the 720's volume control to get the best setting - use the
technique mlsstl described - set the Touch to max output, play a song
which is in the "softer" range, and set the volume control on your
Yamaha to as loud as you think you'd ever want for that listening area.
After that, go ahead and use the Touch's "digital" volume control for
your day-to-day volume changes. I would leave your "mute" button OFF,
and then it can be handy for it's intended purpose - to easily mute or
lower the volume for a brief period (e.g., answering the phone).

Post by Rainer M Krug

Post by Mnyb
What mlsstl describe is an attempt to get a good "gain structure" or
gain staging .
Sources can have to high output level and most likely both amps and
preamps can have to much gain .
If your always use the bottom half of you volume control your system

has

Post by Mnyb
to much gain somewhere .
And subsequently you amplify input noise and stuff , probably at

every

Post by Mnyb
stage , at the preamp and then the power amp .

Thanks - I learned something only by listening in.
I have a Yamaha !-720
(http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/a-720.shtml)
integrated
amplifier which I am only using at less than a third of the volume
control with my Monitor Audio Bronze speakers
(http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649109800-monitor_audio_bronze_3_speakers/images/702957/).
But the amplifier has a Muting button which reduces the volume output so
that I have to set the volume to the upper half. So I should use this
than? I'll try it out
Rainer

Post by Mnyb
This board amp TPA3116 ? Does it have any built in gain adaption ? If
not you can build your own L-pads ( a couple of resistors per channel

)

Post by Mnyb
or buy passive attenuators to put on the rca inputs to lower the gain

by

Post by Mnyb
-10dB for example ? Then you can happily use the Touchs own volume .
Fixed attenuators or L-pads can be built with very good precision
compared to a potentiometer , as it just a bunch of low power

resistor

Post by Mnyb
it cost peanuts to buy very hig precision ones .
( OT , best case would be if the stuff had actuall gain adjustment or
proper gain to begin with , attenuation solve a large chunk of the
problem , but amps still amplify itsp's self generated noise at its

own

Post by Mnyb
input , there is not only SN-ratio stuff have absolute noise levels to

)

Post by Mnyb
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2

x

Post by Mnyb
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux
http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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[Mnyb]

Or passive attenuators at the input on the Yamaha .

I would not be surprised if an integrated amp has to much gain .

Some people have old source components the odd tape deck or tuner maybe
a vhs . 0.5 volt or less was common for a while nowadays around 2.0
volts like the Touch or sometimes more .

So it must fit the worst case scenario old tape deck tape with low level
,large room inefficient speakers . And most important marketing . It
must go to 11, normal,people usually thinks something is wrong if they
have to use most of the volume control ?

Btw if it's home theatre amp , it usually have some gain settings for
analog in , which you would not use anyway as a hit amp or he recievers
in almost all cases is bets used via one of its digital inputs .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by Mnyb
Or passive attenuators at the input on the Yamaha .
I would not be surprised if an integrated amp has to much gain .
Some people have old source components the odd tape deck or tuner maybe
a vhs . 0.5 volt or less was common for a while nowadays around 2.0
volts like the Touch or sometimes more .

Sorry - I don't have a Touch - pi with squeezelite and external USB DAC copnverter.

It is a rather old amp, so you might be right.

Post by Mnyb
So it must fit the worst case scenario old tape deck tape with low level
,large room inefficient speakers . And most important marketing . It
must go to 11, normal,people usually thinks something is wrong if they
have to use most of the volume control ?
Btw if it's home theatre amp , it usually have some gain settings for
analog in , which you would not use anyway as a hit amp or he recievers
in almost all cases is bets used via one of its digital inputs .

Thanks,

Rainer

Post by Mnyb
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux
http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Mnyb]

Yes its is this messy :/ i just wish that the home hifi world could have
used the same standard as pro audio they have predifned levels and a pro
power amps usually have gain selection .
(i had a SiriuS aka GamauT amp with this functionality it was bliss ) .
The only thing you can say vs home audio that its is probably wrong and
that you probably have some more noise than needed in your system .

But these things have grown on us over the years home audio in the 60's
and 70's where compromised it costed money to get real analog
performance , now you get perfect audio for free.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[arnyk]

Post by Mnyb
Yes its is this messy :/ i just wish that the home hifi world could have
used the same standard as pro audio they have predifned levels and a pro
power amps usually have gain selection .

The standard that we finally ended up with is HDMI. The audio signals
are kept in the digital domain as close to the speakers as it can get,
given that the speakers are passive and analog. Being digital, it has
better performance than any of the professional standards for analog.
Equipment that interfaces with HDMI is generally easy to purchase and
maintain.


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[Julf]

Post by arnyk
The standard that we finally ended up with is HDMI. The audio signals
are kept in the digital domain as close to the speakers as it can get,
given that the speakers are passive and analog. Being digital, it has
better performance than any of the professional standards for analog.
Equipment that interfaces with HDMI is generally easy to purchase and
maintain.

And the next step is of course TCP/IP (just look at AES67) running over
pretty much any physical media you can imagine. We are starting to see
the first active speakers with a network interface - when that becomes
more common, the sound system stack as we know it is finally gone -
replaced by controllers (mostly tablets and phones), storage/streaming
somewhere on the network (on your premises or out in the "cloud"), and
speakers.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Julf]

Post by arnyk
The standard that we finally ended up with is HDMI. The audio signals
are kept in the digital domain as close to the speakers as it can get,
given that the speakers are passive and analog. Being digital, it has
better performance than any of the professional standards for analog.
Equipment that interfaces with HDMI is generally easy to purchase and
maintain.

And the next step is of course TCP/IP (just look at AES67) running over
pretty much any physical media you can imagine. We are starting to see
the first active speakers with a network interface - when that becomes
more common, the sound system stack as we know it is finally gone -
replaced by controllers (mostly tablets and phones), storage/streaming
somewhere on the network (on your premises or out in the "cloud"), and
speakers.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by Julf

Post by arnyk
The standard that we finally ended up with is HDMI. The audio signals
are kept in the digital domain as close to the speakers as it can get,
given that the speakers are passive and analog. Being digital, it has
better performance than any of the professional standards for analog.
Equipment that interfaces with HDMI is generally easy to purchase and
maintain.

And the next step is of course TCP/IP (just look at AES67) running over
pretty much any physical media you can imagine. We are starting to see
the first active speakers with a network interface - when that becomes
more common, the sound system stack as we know it is finally gone -
replaced by controllers (mostly tablets and phones), storage/streaming
somewhere on the network (on your premises or out in the "cloud"), and
speakers.

Well - somewhere, I have to convert from digital to analog - so I need a
DAC and an amplifier and a speaker. Finally, these things might be in
one box (the speaker), and (*im theory*) working perfectly together, but
still - isn't this again the good old transistor radio?

And if this system becomes modularized, we are at the same point again,
just times two: one per speaker.

Rainer

Post by Julf
"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Julf]

Post by Rainer M Krug
Well - somewhere, I have to convert from digital to analog - so I need a
DAC and an amplifier and a speaker. Finally, these things might be in
one box (the speaker), and (*im theory*) working perfectly together, but
still - isn't this again the good old transistor radio?

The transistor radio sacrificed a lot of things in order to be portable.
A better analogy would be the traditional stereo system centered around
integrated amplifier. You have a source (record player), a control unit
(the amp), and the speakers. In the brave new fully digital world, you
have a source (a server somewhere, probably on the Internet), a control
unit (phone or tablet), and the speakers. You already have this in a
lot of bluetooth "lifestyle" systems - but AES67 etc. allows you to do
it at the highest possible sound quality, and with a lot more
flexibility.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by Julf

Post by Rainer M Krug
Well - somewhere, I have to convert from digital to analog - so I need a
DAC and an amplifier and a speaker. Finally, these things might be in
one box (the speaker), and (*im theory*) working perfectly together, but
still - isn't this again the good old transistor radio?

The transistor radio sacrificed a lot of things in order to be portable.

I would expect that, as all components need to be doubled (one per
channel), the sacrifice will not be done for portability (possibly in
some it would), but for costs. I would assume that you need good
components to build a good system - and if you need them twice, you have
to pay double.

Post by Julf
A better analogy would be the traditional stereo system centered around
integrated amplifier. You have a source (record player), a control unit
(the amp), and the speakers.
In the brave new fully digital world, you have a source (a server
somewhere, probably on the Internet), a control unit (phone or
tablet), and the speakers.

True - but you still need a DAC and an amp in the speaker.

But how does this differ from LMS: source (LMS), control unit (iPeng et
al) and "speakers" (squueezaplayer, squeezebox, ... & amp & speaker)?
Isn't it just the protocol how the data (flac, ...) is transferred over
the network?
I know that AES67 offers more interoperability, .... But in this context
here, I would say the only difference is that the "speakers" are in one
box?

Post by Julf
You already have this in a lot of bluetooth "lifestyle" systems - but
AES67 etc. allows you to do it at the highest possible sound quality,
and with a lot more flexibility.
"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Mnyb]

Any DAC would suit an old amp basically , maybe you need passive
attenuators ( rothwell is brand I bougth for this purpose ).

But check the specs ! Do you have a manual to the old amp ? Sometimes
max input levels are speced .

But in 99% of the time it works just fine IMHO .

RegardingDAC in speakers , I have them .

Traditional 19" components the box with its nice comsmetics knobs and
displays etc and power supply is almost all the cost !

Even a very good DAC chip cost "nothing" so you can sprinkle a fistful
of them on your hifi without problems .
Active filters are such a step change that IMHO almost any cheap DAC
chip after an active digital filter will always get you so much better
result than the best separate DAC in the world before a power amp and
passive filter.....

Let's se my speakers have 10 one channel DAC's between them and 1 in the
processor to my analog sub , so 11ch da conversion in use.
Then I have 5.1 , 6 unused analog out on my blueray player ( I use hdmi
) and 5 more ch lrflbrb on my processor if I want to use analog amps and
an extra zone 2 more channels. And 2 unused ch on my squeezebox and 2 on
the cable box and 2 on the TV
So in total I have 30 mono channels of DA conversion .
Now try to purchase 15 stereo DAC from a brand name in nice 19" boxes
and see what that would set you back .

So the traditional stack of boxes , you pay for boxes basically .

If someone wonder how a ht reciver can be so good for the money , it no
mystery mass manufacturing + a very efficient layout all processing is
digital including 7.1 volume control DSP sub xover etc then just 7 mono
amps TaDa :)

Btw yes I know that Meridian that I use may not be the best example of
active stuff in all cases because they are to expensive and quite fancy
? But in 2004 for example who else could offer an unbroken 5.1 24/96
digital signal chain straight to the amp before the speaker driver ? For
home users ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by Mnyb
Any DAC would suit an old amp basically , maybe you need passive
attenuators ( rothwell is brand I bougth for this purpose ).

I am looking at them at the moment. And as the amplifier has two
connectors for accessories between pre-amp and power-amp, I could put
them between the pre-amp and the power amp.

Now the question remains, which ones: -10 or -15? On the scale between
infinity (80) and 0, my volume dial sits at the moment at 30, and the
volume of the squeezeplayer and the other equipment sits ar around 2/3 ?

Post by Mnyb
But check the specs ! Do you have a manual to the old amp ? Sometimes
max input levels are speced .

I have found these on the internet at
http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/a-720.shtml , here a
screenshot of the specs:

Loading Image...

So what should I look for in a DAC?

And do they help in choosing a attenuator?

Thanks a lot for your help - I am learning quite a bit,

Rainer

Post by Mnyb
But in 99% of the time it works just fine IMHO .
RegardingDAC in speakers , I have them .
Traditional 19" components the box with its nice comsmetics knobs and
displays etc and power supply is almost all the cost !
Even a very good DAC chip cost "nothing" so you can sprinkle a fistful
of them on your hifi without problems .
Active filters are such a step change that IMHO almost any cheap DAC
chip after an active digital filter will always get you so much better
result than the best separate DAC in the world before a power amp and
passive filter.....
Let's se my speakers have 10 one channel DAC's between them and 1 in the
processor to my analog sub , so 11ch da conversion in use.
Then I have 5.1 , 6 unused analog out on my blueray player ( I use hdmi
) and 5 more ch lrflbrb on my processor if I want to use analog amps and
an extra zone 2 more channels. And 2 unused ch on my squeezebox and 2 on
the cable box and 2 on the TV
So in total I have 30 mono channels of DA conversion .
Now try to purchase 15 stereo DAC from a brand name in nice 19" boxes
and see what that would set you back .
So the traditional stack of boxes , you pay for boxes basically .
If someone wonder how a ht reciver can be so good for the money , it no
mystery mass manufacturing + a very efficient layout all processing is
digital including 7.1 volume control DSP sub xover etc then just 7 mono
amps TaDa :)

OK - makes sense.

Post by Mnyb
Btw yes I know that Meridian that I use may not be the best example of
active stuff in all cases because they are to expensive and quite fancy
? But in 2004 for example who else could offer an unbroken 5.1 24/96
digital signal chain straight to the amp before the speaker driver ? For
home users ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux
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[cliveb]

Post by Rainer M Krug

Post by Mnyb
Any DAC would suit an old amp basically , maybe you need passive
attenuators ( rothwell is brand I bougth for this purpose ).

I am looking at them at the moment. And as the amplifier has two
connectors for accessories between pre-amp and power-amp, I could put
them between the pre-amp and the power amp.

If you're thinking of putting passive attenuation between the preamp and
power amp, an obvious thing to try would be to just bypass the preamp
completely. Connect the output of the Touch (or DAC) directly to the
power amp via the attenuators, and just use the Touch's digital volume
control. That way you're taking the preamp completely out of circuit,
with potential sonic benefits.

If you're planning to always go via the preamp, there's no point adding
passive attenuation - just use the preamp's volume control to set the
gain staging.

Post by Rainer M Krug
Now the question remains, which ones: -10 or -15?

Start off by turning the Touch's volume all the way down, and connect it
(or DAC) directly to the power amp without attenuators. Then play
something that you like to listen to loud. Slowly turn up the Touch's
volume until it's as loud as you'll ever want. The Touch's volume
setting will give you an idea of how much attenuation you need (ie. so
that when you add the attenuators, the Touch's volume would have to go
up to 100% to get as loud as you would ever want). I don't have a Touch
so I'm not sure how its volume settings map to dB values, but I'm sure
someone on here will be able to tell you.



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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by cliveb

Post by Rainer M Krug

Post by Mnyb
Any DAC would suit an old amp basically , maybe you need passive
attenuators ( rothwell is brand I bougth for this purpose ).

I am looking at them at the moment. And as the amplifier has two
connectors for accessories between pre-amp and power-amp, I could put
them between the pre-amp and the power amp.

If you're thinking of putting passive attenuation between the preamp and
power amp, an obvious thing to try would be to just bypass the preamp
completely. Connect the output of the Touch (or DAC) directly to the
power amp via the attenuators, and just use the Touch's digital volume
control. That way you're taking the preamp completely out of circuit,
with potential sonic benefits.

Would be better, but I have at the moment two inputs (squeezebox and tv)
into the pre-amp, and I will have a radio tuner hopefully soon again. So
this is unfortunately not an option.

Post by cliveb
If you're planning to always go via the preamp, there's no point adding
passive attenuation - just use the preamp's volume control to set the
gain staging.

Now I am confused - I thought the whole idea of the passive attenuation
is to have the volume control of all units in the upper half / third and
not in the lower third. At the moment, my amplifier runs at the lower
third, and the other inputs (squeezebox / pi and TV) at upper third.

As I understood Mnyb, I could use the passive attenuation to lower the
gain. As this applies to all my inputs, I assumed that I could put it
between pre-amp and power-amp. This is also stated at the rothwell
website http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html :

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
Although the attenuators can be used on the inputs of the pre-amp in
exactly the same way as they would be used on an integrated amp
(with the same benefits), alternatively they can be used between
the pre-amp and the power amp to even greater effect. When used this
way, not only is system gain reduced by 10dB, but the signal to noise
ratio is improved by 10dB. This pushes the noise floor down enough to
create an inky black silent background from which the music can emerge
with better resolved fine detail and transparency.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Maybe I am missing something here?

Post by cliveb

Post by Rainer M Krug
Now the question remains, which ones: -10 or -15?

Start off by turning the Touch's volume all the way down, and connect it
(or DAC) directly to the power amp without attenuators. Then play
something that you like to listen to loud. Slowly turn up the Touch's
volume until it's as loud as you'll ever want. The Touch's volume
setting will give you an idea of how much attenuation you need (ie. so
that when you add the attenuators, the Touch's volume would have to go
up to 100% to get as loud as you would ever want). I don't have a Touch
so I'm not sure how its volume settings map to dB values, but I'm sure
someone on here will be able to tell you.

I don't have a touch either - squeezelite player on pi with external
(cheap) DAC.

Post by cliveb
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[cliveb]

Post by Rainer M Krug
Now I am confused - I thought the whole idea of the passive attenuation
is to have the volume control of all units in the upper half / third and
not in the lower third.

In the context of using digital volume control, the purpose of passive
attenuation in the analogue domain is so you can avoid applying a lot of
digital attenuation - which results in loss of resolution.

As far as achieving passive attenuation, using a preamp's volume control
is pretty much the same as adding attenuators. They both achieve the
same result - delivering a reduced signal level to the power amp. And of
course a preamp volume control gives you greater control over the amount
of attenuation. That's why I said if you're using the preamp, there's
little point adding attenuators. Passive attenuators really come into
their own when you're driving a power amp directly from a digital source
and using digital volume control.



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[mlsstl]

Post by cliveb
In the context of using digital volume control, the purpose of passive
attenuation in the analogue domain is so you can avoid applying a lot of
digital attenuation - which results in loss of resolution.
As far as achieving passive attenuation, using a preamp's volume control
is pretty much the same as adding attenuators. They both achieve the
same result - delivering a reduced signal level to the power amp. And of
course a preamp volume control gives you greater control over the amount
of attenuation. That's why I said if you're using the preamp, there's
little point adding attenuators. Passive attenuators really come into
their own when you're driving a power amp directly from a digital source
and using digital volume control.

Apologies to rkrug.

Cliveb is correct. It is the digital volume control of the Touch that I
like to keep in its upper volume range when I'm listening critically.
Unlike digital volume controls, resistance based analog volume controls
don't directly lose resolution at their lower settings. The problem with
many analog volume controls is that they don't track accurately between
the left and right channels as you adjust them up and down. That can be
solved by using hard-wired resistors for a fixed reduction setting or
the more expensive variable potentiometers.


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[Mnyb]

Post by mlsstl
Apologies to rkrug.
Cliveb is correct. It is the digital volume control of the Touch that I
like to keep in its upper volume range when I'm listening critically.
Unlike digital volume controls, resistance based analog volume controls
don't directly lose resolution at their lower settings. The problem with
many analog volume controls is that they don't track accurately between
the left and right channels as you adjust them up and down. That can be
solved by using hard-wired resistors for a fixed reduction setting or
the more expensive variable potentiometers.

Yes but even the most expensive pot may not cut it in the lower range .
So even a pot is best used in its upper range .

I have only digital volume in my meridian setup, but correctly dithered
so I'm not worried about resolution at all . Besides tracking 5.1
channels with analog volume that would be near impossible .

You could say that you lose "resolution" in the lower range with a
digital volume ,but if correctly dithered it behaves like an analog
system the signal gently disappears in the noise floor no quantisation
artifacts . A correctly dithered digital system and an analog one is
analogues to each other ,but the digital one is more precise actually
"perfect" .

The squeezebox does not exactly do that in the very low volume range
,but with correct range range of gain in the rest of the system is so
beyond our hearing ,the volume is very low anyway ( + self dither ? )
that I would not worry



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by Mnyb

Post by mlsstl
Apologies to rkrug.
Cliveb is correct. It is the digital volume control of the Touch that I
like to keep in its upper volume range when I'm listening critically.
Unlike digital volume controls, resistance based analog volume controls
don't directly lose resolution at their lower settings. The problem with
many analog volume controls is that they don't track accurately between
the left and right channels as you adjust them up and down. That can be
solved by using hard-wired resistors for a fixed reduction setting or
the more expensive variable potentiometers.

Yes but even the most expensive pot may not cut it in the lower range .
So even a pot is best used in its upper range .

So in other words: the attenuators (or actually the mute button which is
in the amp) should make a difference. I think I am getting closer to
understand all this and will switch the mute button on again...

Post by Mnyb
I have only digital volume in my meridian setup, but correctly dithered
so I'm not worried about resolution at all . Besides tracking 5.1
channels with analog volume that would be near impossible .
You could say that you lose "resolution" in the lower range with a
digital volume ,but if correctly dithered it behaves like an analog
system the signal gently disappears in the noise floor no quantisation
artifacts . A correctly dithered digital system and an analog one is
analogues to each other ,but the digital one is more precise actually
"perfect" .

OK. I can follow this argument.

Post by Mnyb
The squeezebox does not exactly do that in the very low volume range
,but with correct range range of gain in the rest of the system is so
beyond our hearing ,the volume is very low anyway ( + self dither ? )
that I would not worry

As I said - the volume control on iPeng is always in the upper third -
so I should have no problem there. If I now switch the Mute on on my
amplifier, the volume setting is also in the upper half - so in the
middle of the potentiometer.

Thanks for all this, I have learned quite a bit,

Rainer

Post by Mnyb
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux
http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by mlsstl

Post by cliveb
In the context of using digital volume control, the purpose of passive
attenuation in the analogue domain is so you can avoid applying a lot of
digital attenuation - which results in loss of resolution.
As far as achieving passive attenuation, using a preamp's volume control
is pretty much the same as adding attenuators. They both achieve the
same result - delivering a reduced signal level to the power amp. And of
course a preamp volume control gives you greater control over the amount
of attenuation. That's why I said if you're using the preamp, there's
little point adding attenuators. Passive attenuators really come into
their own when you're driving a power amp directly from a digital source
and using digital volume control.

Apologies to rkrug.

Why? I have to apologize as I hijacked this thread - you give valuable
input.

Post by mlsstl
Cliveb is correct. It is the digital volume control of the Touch that I
like to keep in its upper volume range when I'm listening critically.
Unlike digital volume controls, resistance based analog volume controls
don't directly lose resolution at their lower settings. The problem with
many analog volume controls is that they don't track accurately between
the left and right channels as you adjust them up and down. That can be
solved by using hard-wired resistors for a fixed reduction setting or
the more expensive variable potentiometers.

OK - another piece of useful info.

Rainer

Post by mlsstl
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[arnyk]

[color=blue]

cliveb wrote: [color=green]

Post by cliveb
In the context of using digital volume control, the purpose of

passive

Post by cliveb
attenuation in the analogue domain is so you can avoid applying a lot

of

Post by cliveb
digital attenuation - which results in loss of resolution.

If you are worried about resolution loss in the volume control, then you
are screwed forever, because both digital and analog volume controls
throw away resolution when you increase the attenuation. Some people
have been mislead to think that analog volume controls *don't* lose
resolution when you turn the volume down. Not true.
Analog volume controls work in a context where the circuits they drive
have noise. That is just how reality works. When you torn them down,
resolution gets lost as the signal falls closer to the noise floor.
One of the problems with audio signals in the analog domain is that
there is no defined level matching like there is in the digital domain.
In the digitial domain, Full Scale (FS) is the same for every component
regardless of whether the equipment is consumer or professional, or who
makes it.
We've already discussed how in the analog domain, the choice of
reference levels is free floating, and vastly different depending on
whether you are using consumer gear or pro gear.

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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by cliveb

Post by Rainer M Krug
Now I am confused - I thought the whole idea of the passive attenuation
is to have the volume control of all units in the upper half / third and
not in the lower third.

In the context of using digital volume control, the purpose of passive
attenuation in the analogue domain is so you can avoid applying a lot of
digital attenuation - which results in loss of resolution.
As far as achieving passive attenuation, using a preamp's volume control
is pretty much the same as adding attenuators. They both achieve the
same result - delivering a reduced signal level to the power amp. And of
course a preamp volume control gives you greater control over the amount
of attenuation. That's why I said if you're using the preamp, there's
little point adding attenuators. Passive attenuators really come into
their own when you're driving a power amp directly from a digital source
and using digital volume control.

OK - I think I see what this is all about. So as my digital volume
control is in the upper third, I shluld be fine.

Thanks

Rainer

Post by cliveb
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[Julf]

Post by Rainer M Krug
But how does this differ from LMS: source (LMS), control unit (iPeng et
al) and "speakers" (squueezaplayer, squeezebox, ... & amp & speaker)?

The "source" is totally superfluous as a separate box, so is the amp -
no functional need to separate them physically. It will be much better
(and cheaper) to integrate player, DAC and amp in one unit - and place
it in the speaker.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by Mnyb
Yes its is this messy :/ i just wish that the home hifi world could have
used the same standard as pro audio they have predifned levels and a pro
power amps usually have gain selection .
(i had a SiriuS aka GamauT amp with this functionality it was bliss ) .
The only thing you can say vs home audio that its is probably wrong and
that you probably have some more noise than needed in your system .
But these things have grown on us over the years home audio in the 60's
and 70's where compromised it costed money to get real analog
performance , now you get perfect audio for free.

So now the inevitable question: is there a not to expensive DAC which
works with the pi and plays nicely with old amplifiers, so that I can
get the best out of my flac files?

Rainer

Post by Mnyb
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux
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[Julf]

Post by Mnyb
Yes its is this messy :/ i just wish that the home hifi world could have
used the same standard as pro audio

Yes, domestic audio went for very compromised standards (low signal
levels, unbalanced connections etc) basically for cost reasons. It is
funny how many audiophiles now claim it was because of sound quality
reasons - anything labelled "pro" has to be compromised, sacrificing
ultimate sound quality for "secondary" considerations such as stability,
reliability, and foolproof-ness...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[StephenPG]

Post by Julf
Yes, domestic audio went for very compromised standards (low signal
levels, unbalanced connections etc) basically for cost reasons. It is
funny how many audiophiles now claim it was because of sound quality
reasons - anything labelled "pro" has to be compromised, sacrificing
ultimate sound quality for "secondary" considerations such as stability,
reliability, and foolproof-ness...

I always thought things like balanced connections weren't necessary for
domestic audio, due to the much shorter connection spans and the average
home being a far less hostile environment than the average studio.

My Arcam preamp has both and they sound the same, perhaps if the power
amp was several metres further away, it might make a difference?

Also, most 'audiophiles' are right up there with 'creationists' when it
comes to reality...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio


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[Mnyb]

Post by StephenPG
I always thought things like balanced connections weren't necessary for
domestic audio, due to the much shorter connection spans and the average
home being a far less hostile environment than the average studio.
My Arcam preamp has both and they sound the same, perhaps if the power
amp was several metres further away, it might make a difference?
Also, most 'audiophiles' are right up there with 'creationists' when it
comes to reality...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio

Balanced may not be needed but output levels in the range of 0.1-0.5
volts was a sure sign of cheap components .
Balanced can give you +6dB snr , I would prefer xlr for active analog
speakers for example

I don't now what the current thinking is in pro audio except do
everything digitally :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level

Here they quote +4dB for pro and -10 dB for consumer , this is estimates
I think most modern studio equipment can produce or tolerate 22dB u or v
? Which is approximately 10 volt this is compared to some reference
levels agreed on in the dawn of time itself.

Here is a calculator http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm


In th old days they measured power amps in dBw , but that do not make
for any impressive figures for the spec sheet the diff between a 50 watt
and a 200 watt amp is now 6dB ? Or something .btw I think that's
impressive 6 dB more clean headroom before clipping yes :) , but then
again consumers never bothered with the logarithmic nature of our
hearing and did not understand , but at least it's not as silly as
bying 100 watt speakers :P a very useful figure in isolation just like a
1,5 ton car



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[arnyk]

Post by Mnyb
Balanced can give you +6dB snr , I would prefer xlr for active analog
speakers for example

Balanced provides several benefits. The 6 dB improvement in SNR is due
to the effective doubling of the signal voltage.

An additional very substantial improvement (easily up to 60 dB) can
occur when common mode interference and noise is cancelled out by the
balanced but out-of phase signals.


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[Mnyb]

Post by arnyk
Balanced provides several benefits. The 6 dB improvement in SNR is due
to the effective doubling of the signal voltage.
An additional very substantial improvement (easily up to 60 dB) can
occur when common mode interference and noise is cancelled out by the
balanced but out-of phase signals.

Yes the common mode rejection .

Bryston describe this in thier FAQs
http://bryston.com/pages/faq.html

Basically there must be a summation point in each component the to make
common mode rejection happen .

There was a fad for a while ( Krell and other usual suspect ) to take
the balanced concept to far just because the audiophiles got whiff off
it and misunderstood the purpose , to reject noise in long cables
between components .
In your home with very short components and almost noise free
environment , try a studio ( or process industry where I work ) for real
noise levels....



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[cliveb]

Balanced operation also disconnects the ground planes of components,
which can help even over short runs.
A ground loop doesn't have to be so extreme as to cause audible hum to
cause degradation.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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[arnyk]

Post by cliveb
Balanced operation also disconnects the ground planes of components,
which can help even over short runs.
A ground loop doesn't have to be so extreme as to cause audible hum to
cause degradation.

This is one of the reasons why long cables don't have to be involved for
balanced I/O to show a SNR advantage. The simple fact that the signal
travels between two different chassis is sufficient to cause grounding
problems that balanced I/O can help.


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[Rainer M Krug]

Post by tcutting
Your Yamaha amp should already be optimized for a standard "line" level
which the Touch provides (use one of the "TAPE" or "AUX" inputs, NOT the
PHONO!).

Sorry - I don't use a touch. I use a p;i with an external USB DAC,
headphone out. And the input is AUX.

Post by tcutting
I would say don't add anything between the Touch and your 720.
I would use the 720's volume control to get the best setting - use the
technique mlsstl described - set the Touch to max output, play a song
which is in the "softer" range, and set the volume control on your
Yamaha to as loud as you think you'd ever want for that listening area.
After that, go ahead and use the Touch's "digital" volume control for
your day-to-day volume changes.

OK - this is about what I have done and I am using iPeng for volume control.

Post by tcutting
I would leave your "mute" button OFF, and then it can be handy for
it's intended purpose - to easily mute or lower the volume for a brief
period (e.g., answering the phone).

No need for that. But I might switch it off again.

Thanks,

Rainer

Post by tcutting

Post by Rainer M Krug

Post by Mnyb
What mlsstl describe is an attempt to get a good "gain structure" or
gain staging .
Sources can have to high output level and most likely both amps and
preamps can have to much gain .
If your always use the bottom half of you volume control your system

has

Post by Mnyb
to much gain somewhere .
And subsequently you amplify input noise and stuff , probably at

every

Post by Mnyb
stage , at the preamp and then the power amp .

Thanks - I learned something only by listening in.
I have a Yamaha !-720
(http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/a-720.shtml)
integrated
amplifier which I am only using at less than a third of the volume
control with my Monitor Audio Bronze speakers
(http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649109800-monitor_audio_bronze_3_speakers/images/702957/).
But the amplifier has a Muting button which reduces the volume output so
that I have to set the volume to the upper half. So I should use this
than? I'll try it out
Rainer

Post by Mnyb
This board amp TPA3116 ? Does it have any built in gain adaption ? If
not you can build your own L-pads ( a couple of resistors per channel

)

Post by Mnyb
or buy passive attenuators to put on the rca inputs to lower the gain

by

Post by Mnyb
-10dB for example ? Then you can happily use the Touchs own volume .
Fixed attenuators or L-pads can be built with very good precision
compared to a potentiometer , as it just a bunch of low power

resistor

Post by Mnyb
it cost peanuts to buy very hig precision ones .
( OT , best case would be if the stuff had actuall gain adjustment or
proper gain to begin with , attenuation solve a large chunk of the
problem , but amps still amplify itsp's self generated noise at its

own

Post by Mnyb
input , there is not only SN-ratio stuff have absolute noise levels to

)

Post by Mnyb
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2

x

Post by Mnyb
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux
http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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