Audiolabs M-DAC

[tank121]

Anyone on here lucky enough to pre-order this

If so, anyone using it with the Touch ?

No stock now until January.
--
tank121

Squeezebox touch
Arcam A85 amp
Chord rumour speaker cable
Dali Mentor Menuets on Custom Design stands

Room 2
Boom

Bedroom
RADIO
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[sleepysurf]

I've got one on pre-order from Planet of Sound. Now just waiting to see
if I made the "cut" for the initial North American shipment. Looks like
a potential "killer" DAC to pair with my Touch.
--
sleepysurf

main system: touch > benchmark dac-1 > conrad-johnson ct-5 preamp and
premier 350 amp > ml summits. audience au24e and blue jeans cables.
secondary systems: sb3 in master br (russound r235ls amp driving
in-ceiling speaker) and game room (powered swan s200a speakers), with
boom in home office. member of the 'suncoast audiophile society'
(http://www.meetup.com/suncoast-audiophile-society/)
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[tank121]

Just tracked one down. It's arriving tomorrow!

They had 2 in stock 1 black and 1 silver
--
tank121

Squeezebox touch
Arcam A85 amp
Chord rumour speaker cable
Dali Mentor Menuets on Custom Design stands

Room 2
Boom

Bedroom
RADIO
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[sleepysurf]

Lucky you! Looking forward to hearing your opinion!
--
sleepysurf

main system: touch > benchmark dac-1 > conrad-johnson ct-5 preamp and
premier 350 amp > ml summits. audience au24e and blue jeans cables.
secondary systems: sb3 in master br (russound r235ls amp driving
in-ceiling speaker) and game room (powered swan s200a speakers), with
boom in home office. member of the 'suncoast audiophile society'
(http://www.meetup.com/suncoast-audiophile-society/)
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[firedog]

Is this the same DAC as the 8200 DAC/pre, but without the pre?
--
firedog

GIK Acoustics Room Treatments. Tranquil PC fanless server running
Vortexbox OS; SB Touch slaved to Empirical Audio Pace Car; MF X-DAC-V3,
MF X-150 as pre-amp, ClassDaudio SDS-470 amp; Devore Gibbon Super 8
Speakers; Dual 506 + Ortofon M20 (occasional use); sometimes use PC
with M-Audio 192 as digital source. SB Boom in second room. Arcam CD82
which I don't use anymore, even though it's a very good player.
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[tank121]

Here are the specs -

http://www.audiolab.co.uk/M-DAC%20Series.aspx?lang=En
--
tank121

Squeezebox touch
Arcam A85 amp
Chord rumour speaker cable
Dali Mentor Menuets on Custom Design stands

Room 2
Boom

Bedroom
RADIO
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[TheBear]

Hi tank,

I am using an MDAC with a Touch - I don't think you will be
disappointed :-)
It is a joy to use, the little wand remote is great to mute or swap
filter settings on the fly. I run it via XLRs straight to my power amp,
using the digital pre-amp in the MDAC, and it comfortably out-performs
my previous setup of DacMagic + passive pre.
The headphone amp is also top notch - overall, the MDAC has been one of
my best hi-fi purchases, and the fact that the designer, John Westlake,
takes such an interest over on PFM adds to the joy of ownership !

Just need dimmable display, which John W has indicated will be in the
first user installable firmware update in a few weeks time.

Best regards,

George

[tank121]

The MDAC has arrived at work, will be setting up later!
--
tank121

Squeezebox touch
Arcam A85 amp
Chord rumour speaker cable
Dali Mentor Menuets on Custom Design stands

Room 2
Boom

Bedroom
RADIO
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[tank121]

Volume question.

When setting up the DAC should be volume be set to 100% ?

The Touch is set to 100% and then will feed into the DAC via Coaxial
and from the DAC into will feed into my amp via RCA.
--
tank121

Squeezebox touch
Arcam A85 amp
Chord rumour speaker cable
Dali Mentor Menuets on Custom Design stands

Room 2
Boom

Bedroom
RADIO
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[TheBear]

Yes, that is what is recommended in the MDAC manual, and I have it this
way, Fixed volume 100% on the Touch

[TheBear]

Sorry Tank - just realised I mis-read your mail - you were talking about
100% volume ON THE MDAC.
You just need to set the MDAC to standalone DAC mode - explained on p21
of the manual - to disable the built-in pre-amp if you are routing it to
an integrated amp.

[tank121]

Just tried that to complete the process it ssys press the menu ot power
off and it seems to loose the serting!
--
tank121

Squeezebox touch
Arcam A85 amp
Chord rumour speaker cable
Dali Mentor Menuets on Custom Design stands

Room 2
Boom

Bedroom
RADIO
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[tank121]

As the MDAC has a built in pre-amp and I've since discovered I can
switch my Arcam a85 into power amp mode would this be the best set up ?
--
tank121

Squeezebox touch
Arcam A85 amp
Chord rumour speaker cable
Dali Mentor Menuets on Custom Design stands

Room 2
Boom

Bedroom
RADIO
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[MCG555]

It probably depends on the quality of the preamp section - and on your
taste...
--
MCG555

Greetings from Switzerland - Markus :-)

----
Proac Response D15, Astintrew AT2000plus, B&W Sub ASW 610, SB Touch
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[tank121]

Are there any benefits to connecting the Touch to the MDAC via USB ?
--
tank121

Squeezebox touch
Arcam A85 amp
Chord rumour speaker cable
Dali Mentor Menuets on Custom Design stands

Room 2
Boom

Bedroom
RADIO
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[garym]

Post by tank121
Are there any benefits to connecting the Touch to the MDAC via USB ?

My reading of this forum is that no one has yet fully mastered the
TOUCH USB > USB DAC connection without pops, etc. And the TOUCH USB out
was definitely NOT designed to feed a DAC. It was designed for attaching
a data drive. Search on this topic, and pay attention to John Swenson's
posts on the issue...
--
garym

Location 1: VB Appliance 6TB (1.10) > LMS 7.7.1 > Transporter, Touch,
Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
Location 2: VB Appliance 3TB (2.0) > LMS 7.7.1 > Touch > Benchmark DAC
I, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
Office: Win7(64) > LMS 7.7.1 > SqueezePlay
Retired: SB3, Duet Receiver
Controllers: iPhone (iPeng), iPad (iPengHD & SqueezePad), CONTROLLER,
or SqueezePlay 7.7 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Additional Tagging - mp3tag
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[RotelMan]

The USB drivers on the Touch is to OLD... only a handfull DAC can be
used and its very hard to setup!
And an Async. USB DAC wont work from what I known.

[Mnyb]

is not the Audiolab equiped with the sabre dac and other engineering
marvels making it rather resiliant against transport problems , try
spdif or optical (try optical with the coax disconected the piont is to
figure if galvanic isolation is good for it ) ?

i think there is a bit of hype in digital transport " differences "
they once where a reality I still remeber my old DAC's and other
equipment, but in the last decade it seems practically solved.
Note there will always be a clique of people finding the "difference"
they would still do so past the piont of perfection .

so you have a modern DAC with good reputation and a good transport the
Touch, so you are well engineered at both ends :)
is there really an interface problem to solve ?

as other said Touch seems incapable of a good async USB interface at
the moment but as you have a dac with all avaible options so you can
use spdif or toslink .

i can't imagine that either will limit your performance

Trying the Arcam in power amp mode seems interesting, try it both ways
--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
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[JezA]

John Westlake, the designer of the M-DAC, has posted at length on the
pink fish media forum. Someone sent him a Touch to measure - according
to him it was pretty dreadful - but after connecting it to his M-DAC
and its two stages of jitter attenuation things seemed to get a lot
better. If you check out the whole thread you'll see he is talking
about modifying a Touch and introducing some kind of clock input. See
'here'
(http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=108045&page=31).

[Mnyb]

Post by JezA
John Westlake, the designer of the M-DAC, has posted at length on the
pink fish media forum. Someone sent him a Touch to measure - according
to him it was pretty dreadful - but after connecting it to his M-DAC
and its two stages of jitter attenuation things seemed to get a lot
better. If you check out the whole thread you'll see he is talking
about modifying a Touch and introducing some kind of clock input. See
'here'
(http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=108045&page=31).

Urgh 17Ns ? But stereophile give it a really god measurement are they
quality differences between samples ?

And these guys measure it to 50ps rms (300ps peak)

http://www.anedio.com/index.php/article/squeezebox_touch

Thats a thorny subject how to measure jitter and compress to single
number to compare ?

And the even thornier subject of where is the limit for audibility .

There is a very long tread in this forum on that subject .
it can be revived for further discussion .

Some sources with controlled test suggest very very high levels to be
audible some claims very low levels ?? what gives.

But to be audible the jitter must disrupt the DAC enough so it's
evident in it's thd and noise and intermodulation, the DAC makes an
analog signal so it gives that the jitter residues must be in that
signal to be heard .
So the input jitter must change the analog output of the DAC sligthly
.
How little thd and noise can a human detect ?


However from the links it seams that Audiolab design does a really good
jobb recovering this.
So it seems to be a solid product .
--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
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[firedog]

Before mods, my Touch was measured:

"P-P Jitter below 1MHz was 300psec", which seems quite different than
what's being talked about here.
--
firedog

GIK Acoustics Room Treatments. Tranquil PC fanless server running
Vortexbox OS; SB Touch slaved to Empirical Audio Pace Car; MF X-DAC-V3,
MF X-150 as pre-amp, Grant Fidelity B-283MKII buffer>ClassDaudio SDS-470
amp; Devore Gibbon Super 8 Speakers; Dual 506 + Ortofon M20 (occasional
use); sometimes use PC with M-Audio 192 as digital source. SB Boom in
second room. Arcam CD82 which I don't use anymore, even though it's a
very good player.
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[Mnyb]

Post by firedog
"P-P Jitter below 1MHz was 300psec", which seems quite different than
what's being talked about here.

God info .
That was what I meant (in to many words ) the result are -very-
different suggesting

a measurement error

b faulty sample

c incomparable measurement methods (apples and oranges all over again
)

Or any combination of the above .

C is a good guess ,The issue here is measuring jitter on the spdiff
reciever and other places internal in the dac makes it impossible to
asses compared to other measurements ? But nevertheless interesting,
But how does other sources fare using this method ? and what are the
ballpark expected figures for decent performance .
And how would it measure inside another DAC with different design ?

And does it matter, if the DAC can fix it it's ok anyway ?

It is an interesting piece of equipment , in my case I don't need a dac
, but it would be on my shortlist to try out if needed one .
Price/performance seems sane not the typical overpricing.
--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
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[Pete91]

Post by Mnyb
God info .
That was what I meant (in to many words ) the result are -very-
different suggesting
a measurement error
b faulty sample
c incomparable measurement methods (apples and oranges all over again
)
Or any combination of the above .
C is a good guess ,The issue here is measuring jitter on the spdiff
reciever and other places internal in the dac makes it impossible to
asses compared to other measurements ? But nevertheless interesting,
But how does other sources fare using this method ? and what are the
ballpark expected figures for decent performance .
And how would it measure inside another DAC with different design ?
And does it matter, if the DAC can fix it it's ok anyway ?
It is an interesting piece of equipment , in my case I don't need a dac
, but it would be on my shortlist to try out if needed one .
Price/performance seems sane not the typical overpricing.

"C" makes sense to me. Most likely the answer is buried in the
definition of jitter.

The Anedio measurement (for example) is using FFT which will sum the
terms against a specific carrier frequency, which is a form of
peak-peak jitter at the test tone. Looking at the tester used by John W
- the R&S UPD - it *seems* capable of measuring phase error (vs.
internal reference) at the sampling clock frequency. And as long as it
can sample over a long time period, it's much more harsh test than
cycle-cyle jitter at (say) 11kHz.

Although I confess I've not pored over the spec in detail, from my past
experience of using a ~similar piece of equipment (HP 5372A) I *would*
expect a much worse jitter number from the UPD, and more relevant to
the audio performance that we're interested in.

Happy to be corrected if my understanding of the peak-peak measurements
is mistaken.

[JezA]

JohnW has confirmed on the pinkfishmedia forum that he will be modifying
SB Touches to take a clock signal from his M-DAC and so lock to it.

'See here'
(http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=109648&page=70)

[gw43]

Post by tank121
As the MDAC has a built in pre-amp and I've since discovered I can
switch my Arcam a85 into power amp mode would this be the best set up ?

I'm thinking of getting the M-Dac, and I also have an Arcam A85. Did you
try it in power-amp mode, and if so where there any benefits over using
the A85 as an integrated amp?


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[tank121]

Post by gw43
I'm thinking of getting the M-Dac, and I also have an Arcam A85. Did you
try it in power-amp mode, and if so where there any benefits over using
the A85 as an integrated amp?

Either way sounds great. I'm personally using it in Power mode once
you've purchased it you can then Install
Triodes plug in and experiment with Usb v Coaxial. I'm still undecided
as currently there is very limited amounts of 192 material.

Coxial can handle it but usb cant


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[phycomp]

I use an Arcam A18 amp with my new Audiolab M-DAC and am very pleased
with the combination, lots more detail emerging from CD's and streamed
music files than previously when I used just my PC.


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[Stratmangler]

Post by tank121
Either way sounds great. I'm personally using it in Power mode once
you've purchased it you can then Install
Triodes plug in and experiment with Usb v Coaxial. I'm still undecided
as currently there is very limited amounts of 192 material.
*Coaxial can handle it but usb can't*

Not strictly true - if you hang a M2Tech Hiface 2 out of the USB port
then it's quite happy sending 24/192.


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[firedog]

Post by Stratmangler
Not strictly true - if you hang a M2Tech Hiface 2 out of the USB port
then it's quite happy sending 24/192.
The next logical step of enquiry goes along the lines of "I wonder if
the M2Tech Young DAC can handle 24/192 over USB"?
I think the answer to the question is that it's more than likely.
The M2Tech stuff doesn't require the use of proprietary drivers for
Linux devices, and as the Touch is running on Linux.....

that is true only for the new generation of M2tech stuff that came out
this year; the older stuff needs proprietary drivers and doesn't work
with linux


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[Stratmangler]

Post by firedog
that is true only for the new generation of M2tech stuff that came out
this year; the older stuff needs proprietary drivers and doesn't work
with linux

I've only played with current generation M2Tech stuff :)


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[big_marcelo]

Post by JezA
JohnW has confirmed on the pinkfishmedia forum that he will be modifying
SB Touches to take a clock signal from his M-DAC and so lock to it.
'See here'
(http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=109648&page=70)

Jeza,

Via USB, using triodes app, the SBT already clock locks to the MDaC
(asynchronous USB) up to 24/96 - the MTRAN upgrade, will implement USB
2.0, which will allow 24/192 asynchronous connection. The dual optical
connection will be 1 for the clock lock and the other for the audio
data.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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[yokou]

Hi

I have been using a SBT for a while. I have recently bought a MDAC. I
connected it to the SBT with a spdif cable.

I haven't heard a big difference (if any) when I switched from A to B.

<A> FLAC -> SBT (preamp section desactivated) -> MDAC (preamp section
desactivated) -> amplifier

<B> FLAC -> SBT (100%) -> amplifier

What about your experiences? What kind of improvements have you heard?


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[mlsstl]

Post by yokou
Hi
I have been using a SBT for a while. I have recently bought a MDAC. I
connected it to the SBT with a spdif cable.
I have not heard any difference when I switched from A to B.
<A> FLAC -> SBT (preamp section desactivated) -> MDAC (preamp section
desactivated) -> amplifier
<B> FLAC -> SBT (preamp section desactivated) -> amplifier
What about your experiences? What kind of improvements have you heard?

Can't comment on the MDAC, but I had been using a SB3 with a Lavry DAC
when I got my Touch 3 years ago. I ran them side-by-side, synced and
level-matched for a couple of weeks. I found that I generally could not
tell a difference, and when I could, it was so subtle as to not be worth
fretting about. I sold the Lavry and haven't looked back since.


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[Mnyb]

Post by mlsstl
Can't comment on the MDAC, but I had been using a SB3 with a Lavry DAC
when I got my Touch 3 years ago. I ran them side-by-side, synced and
level-matched for a couple of weeks. I found that I generally could not
tell a difference, and when I could, it was so subtle as to not be worth
fretting about. I sold the Lavry and haven't looked back since.

1. Level matched .

2. Reasonably well performing DAC's ,(error below human treshold of
hearing)

Expected results .

However that can be said about most of your line level components .

But things adds up in the end , so having better performing components
is good even if that single component cant be distinguished in isolation
, but the proper context and perspective is good . Otherwise you end up
with 30k $ dac's !
A good thought is if a new DAC would be the best upgrade for the system
in total .

3. Beware of some cult designed dacs NOS and tubes etc ,they may
actually sound different :) this is of-course perceived as better by
some (as always )

If you have more than one digital source a DAC may be unavoidable , then
the MDAC seems to be a good performer for the money ?


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[yokou]

The SBT is as good as a MDAC then... I am going to sell the MDAC


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