Discussion:
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?
jkeny
2015-06-21 22:45:21 UTC
Permalink
I haven't been a frequenter of this forum for a while - only just
participated in it after a long hiatus but I notice a rash of posts from
a core group of posters who seem to want to embarrass & denigrate
anybody who posts their sonic impressions. There are many times when
people are wrong about their impressions but there is a gentle way of
teasing out these possible wrong impressions.

I find the recent posts & threads that have been started are mostly from
a group of people who are only interested in displaying their
self-deluded scientific superiority by putting down anybody who posts
sonic impressions.

Is this sort of treatment what you want to see happening in this part of
the forum? Speak up now or close this section & be done with it!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
jkeny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35192
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
castalla
2015-06-21 22:50:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by jkeny
I haven't been a frequenter of this forum for a while - only just
participated in it after a long hiatus but I notice a rash of posts from
a core group of posters who seem to want to embarrass & denigrate
anybody who posts their sonic impressions. There are many times when
people are wrong about their impressions but there is a gentle way of
teasing out these possible wrong impressions.
I find the recent posts & threads that have been started are mostly from
a group of people who are only interested in displaying their
self-deluded scientific superiority by putting down anybody who posts
sonic impressions.
Is this sort of treatment what you want to see happening in this part of
the forum? Speak up now or close this section & be done with it!
I frankly don't care who says what about what is obviously an esoteric
and subjective topic .... carry on wasting bandwidth!



Touch - Muse M50 EX TPA3123 T-Amp Mini - Acoustics Q10 speakers
Logitech Radio
Logitech UE Smart Radio
Raspberry Pi + Squeezeplug LMS + Squeezelite
Cubieboard + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100
bluetooth speaker
O2 Joggler + SqpOS + Aune X2 T-amp + Mordaunt Short ms-3.40 speakers
IBOX + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100 bluetooth
speaker
Squeeze2upnp - Sonos Play1 & Vistron internet radio (Reciva)
Pure One Flow
------------------------------------------------------------------------
castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jkeny
2015-06-21 22:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Indeed! But why not close this section? Does it serve any purpose other
than bandwidth wastage?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
jkeny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35192
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Greg Erskine
2015-06-21 23:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Tip: Just add people to your ignore list.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Erskine's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7403
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
JJZolx
2015-06-22 05:45:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by jkeny
Indeed! But why not close this section? Does it serve any purpose other
than bandwidth wastage?
That's exactly how I feel.

These people should go post in the Hydrogen Audio forums. Where everyone
knows everything sounds the same.

This forum should have been closed a long time ago.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Archimago
2015-06-22 18:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJZolx
That's exactly how I feel.
These people should go post in the Hydrogen Audio forums. Where everyone
knows everything sounds the same.
This forum should have been closed a long time ago.
Surely for every Hydrogen Audio, there are more AudioAsylum-like forums
to hang out at... So long as folks find it interesting and enjoy the
chat, what's it matter to you whether the place exists?

Who here believes and "know everything sounds the same"?



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-06-22 18:40:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
Surely for every Hydrogen Audio, there are more AudioAsylum-like forums
to hang out at... So long as folks find it interesting and enjoy the
chat, what's it matter to you whether the place exists?
Who here believes and "know everything sounds the same"?
18297


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: Corbis-42-26457712.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18297|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Archimago
2015-06-22 20:53:01 UTC
Permalink
18297
Damn smart-ass keener!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-06-21 23:56:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by jkeny
I find the recent posts & threads that have been started are mostly from
a group of people who are only interested in displaying their
self-deluded scientific superiority by putting down anybody who posts
sonic impressions.
Is this sort of treatment what you want to see happening in this part of
the forum? Speak up now or close this section & be done with it!
Sadly, it should be closed. No moderation and even adults behave as
teens. I do hope that there aren't any other hobbies where people carry
on with such hate and disrespect.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Wombat
2015-06-22 00:28:06 UTC
Permalink
One thing you should consider. This Audiophile section was not here from
the beginning. Before there were many threads and subforums hijacked by
topics you now find here.
The Slimdevices staff was nerved by nonsense audiophile daydreams only
disturbing the real existing problems of getting further with the
products and software in other subforums.
So this section was craeted as kind of cuckoo's nest. Since there was no
subforum for the Transporter you will find several Transporter owners
posting here also.
I guess i remember this right. So if you really love serious outer space
feeling you may join CA.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jkeny
2015-06-22 00:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wombat
One thing you should consider. This Audiophile section was not here from
the beginning. Before there were many threads and subforums hijacked by
topics you now find here.
The Slimdevices staff was nerved by nonsense audiophile daydreams only
disturbing the real existing problems of getting further with the
products and software in other subforums.
So this section was craeted as kind of cuckoo's nest. Since there was no
subforum for the Transporter you will find several Transporter owners
posting here also.
I guess i remember this right. So if you really love serious outer space
feeling you may join CA.
Ah, I see. So now it has outlived it's use & is just a subforum for the
disaffected & disillusioned.
And yet, did I see Sean Adams posting in this section with measurements
of the transporter which he stated had relevance to audibility & which
you linked to? And yet their relevance to audibility was what again,
Wombat?

Guess nobody knows what this sub section is about!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
jkeny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35192
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
dasmueller
2015-06-22 02:45:01 UTC
Permalink
I check these forums several times every day. Why, because I love the
Squeezeboxes I have.

As an older person, I believe that one's ability to hear diminishes over
time. I also believe that there are limits to what equipment can do to
project better sound quality. That along w the law of diminishing
returns makes some of the products that people talk about here just this
side of silly. I therefore tend to not read many of the Audiophile
postings.

While the main focus of these forums has always been about Squeezebox
equipment, software and due to them no longer being produced alternate
systems, we also have threads/forums sections on music, equipment etc.
We all can make the decision to read whatever we wish to here and to
ignore what we want as well. If the subject is controversial there will
be differentiating opinions and we should be aware that they will be
voiced on both sides. To do otherwise would not be in the best interest
of true discussion/debate. In that context there will always be people
with different agendas whether they be ones we support or not. People
get angry about things w the LMS software that they do not like and
should be able to also criticize the evaluation of audio equipment that
people speak about. The purpose of a forum is for the discussion and
exchange of ideas, without varying opinions it is worthless.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
dasmueller's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=38035
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Mnyb
2015-06-22 05:14:48 UTC
Permalink
It has been far worse remember the toolbox treads or the ones where the
sonic merits of server OS was discussed .

But lately the surfacing of people driving decades long personal
conflicts in the treads and barely keeping track of the subject ( it
does not seem important at all ) it has destroyed several treads lately
;)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Archimago
2015-06-22 18:01:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
Sadly, it should be closed. No moderation and even adults behave as
teens. I do hope that there aren't any other hobbies where people carry
on with such hate and disrespect.
If this forum should be closed because "adults behave as teens" and
"where people carry on with such hate and disrespect", I suspect there
would be few audiophile forums in existence!

Lets face it, few hobbies have as many contentious issues that are so
fundamental to the hobby itself. How many hobbies are there where the
fundamental belief of whether a passive piece of copper (cable) have
strong backers on both sides of the argument!? This is why that article
by Perlman 'Golden Ears And Meter Readers: The Contest for Epistemic
Authority in Audiophilia'
(http://www.jstor.org/stable/4144361?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)
(2004) mentioned in my blog post this week is so fascinating!

It gets right to the heart of this hobby and the numerous battlegrounds.
Is it any wonder that a non-specific subforum like "Audiophiles" will
gravitate towards these contentious issues?

I personally find it enjoyable thinking and participating in the debate;
stimulating thought about what we believe, who we are, why we think the
things we do. Much of it is philosophical and "Theory of Knowledge" type
stuff so it's not up everyone's alley, nor should it be. Nobody is
forced to read the threads or participate, but like others have said,
this forum provides a place where folks can vent, discuss, and explore
"audiophile" topics which would otherwise pollute the more focused
discussions elsewhere on the site. Likewise, there are more "friendly"
places like the AudioCircle for people to talk about their favourite
piece of gear or other manufacturer forums if it's recommendations of
hardware to try...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-06-22 18:35:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
Lets face it, few hobbies have as many contentious issues that are so
fundamental to the hobby itself. How many hobbies are there where the
fundamental belief of whether a passive piece of copper (cable) have
strong backers on both sides of the argument!?
You are a grown man who is apparently so determined to be "right" that
you rely nearly exclusively on logical fallacy. Copper isn't just
copper. First of all, there is the purity. Second, the gauge. More
importantly, however, is that
_no_one_is_debating_the_sound_of_strands_of_copper_. Speaker cable
designs have unique geometries and they certainly have unique
dielectrics. So, no informed audiophile is on the other side of this
argument. If all copper based speaker cables sound the same in a given
audio system irrespective of any variations in design, then the problem
is with the system components or set-up. Finally, non-audiophiles who
dismiss speaker cables as all delivering the same fidelity are also
implying that all silver and copper designs will deliver the same
result.

I would not expect a non-hobbyist to care about these things. Radio
Shack zip cord, hit play, hear sound. Done.

It would be nice if this forum could be transformed into something
productive.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
garym
2015-06-22 18:40:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
You are a grown man who is apparently so determined to be "right" that
you rely nearly exclusively on logical fallacy.
huh? Archimago does extensive, careful tests, with well documented
procedures, available at his blog for the world to see (and further
evaluate). We need a lot more people like Archimago in the audio hobby.



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
w/Battery (all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
------------------------------------------------------------------------
garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-06-22 18:51:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by garym
huh? Archimago does extensive, careful tests, with well documented
procedures, available at his blog for the world to see (and further
evaluate). We need a lot more people like Archimago in the audio hobby.
I responded appropriately to his false logic. No one is debating the
merits of one identical strand of copper to another. Nearly everyone
here is sad. I feel badly for you guys. I don't understand what has
gone wrong that you get such great pleasure from spewing uniformed bs
and insulting anyone who tries to engage in intellectually honest
discussion.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
garym
2015-06-22 19:04:51 UTC
Permalink
huh? Archimago does extensive, careful tests, with well documented
procedures, available at his blog for the world to see (and further
evaluate). We need a lot more people like Archimago in the audio hobby.
I responded appropriately to his false logic. No one is debating the
merits of one identical strand of copper to another. Nearly everyone
here is sad. I feel badly for you guys. I don't understand what has
gone wrong that you get such great pleasure from spewing uniformed bs
and insulting anyone who tries to engage in intellectually honest
discussion.
Wow. I've made two comments on this thread. One comment that we should
keep the forum open (and if someone doesn't like it they are not forced
to read it, that is, none of us is 'in control' of this forum) and two,
a response (above) that Archimago doesn't deserve your comment because
he backs up his thoughts with actual hard work and verifiable/repeatable
analyses that helps us answer good questions with actual testing.

And that makes me a sad spewer of uniformed bs? <shrug>



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
w/Battery (all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
------------------------------------------------------------------------
garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-06-23 11:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
I responded appropriately to his false logic. No one is debating the
merits of one identical strand of copper to another. Nearly everyone
here is sad. I feel badly for you guys. I don't understand what has
gone wrong that you get such great pleasure from spewing uniformed bs
and insulting anyone who tries to engage in intellectually honest
discussion.
Please help me out here.

What is Archimago's false logic?

What is the the uninformed BS?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-06-22 18:47:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
You are a grown man who is apparently so determined to be "right" that
you rely nearly exclusively on logical fallacy. Copper isn't just
copper. First of all, there is the purity. Second, the gauge. More
importantly, however, is that
_no_one_is_debating_the_sound_of_strands_of_copper_. Speaker cable
designs have unique geometries and they certainly have unique
dielectrics. So, no informed audiophile is on the other side of this
argument. If all copper based speaker cables sound the same in a given
audio system irrespective of any variations in design, then the problem
is with the system components or set-up. Finally, non-audiophiles who
dismiss speaker cables as all delivering the same fidelity are also
implying that all silver and copper designs will deliver the same
result.
I would not expect a non-hobbyist to care about these things. Radio
Shack zip cord, hit play, hear sound. Done.
It would be nice if this forum could be transformed into something
productive.
I want whatever drugs you are taking since I haven't been that detached
from reality since my last LSD trip back in the 1970s.

By the way you still have not answered my simple question about fire
sprinkler systems. And please understand that I have no intention of
trying to embarrass you, I simply would like to prove my point about
misinformation.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-06-22 18:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
I want whatever drugs you are taking since I haven't been that detached
from reality since my last LSD trip back in the 1970s.
Ralph, let's be honest. Somewhere deep inside you know that something
is not right with you. Take a step back. Get some sleep. I take this
hobby seriously. I derive great satisfaction from it. I do not part
with money unless I'm informed as to what I'm spending it on.

It's time for you to be called out. Think about it. Do you want to let
it go now and get this forum turned around?



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-06-22 19:23:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
Ralph, let's be honest. Somewhere deep inside you know that something
is not right with you. Take a step back. Get some sleep. I take this
hobby seriously. I derive great satisfaction from it. I do not part
with money unless I'm informed as to what I'm spending it on.
It's time for you to be called out. Think about it. Do you want to let
it go now and get this forum turned around?
Please if you take this hobby seriously then why on earth do you so
willingly and without question take all the nonsense being spewed from
the various high end audio magazines, web sites and marketing
departments as high holy truths?

The print publishing world is slowly dying and will do just about
anything to stay alive and yet you still believe that these clowns are
telling the truth.

Salesmanship and marketing are all about making people believe that your
product is better than the other guys but yet you still believe these
clowns are telling the truth.

And each of the above cases you still believe their lies even when what
they are saying runs directly counter to all known scientific facts and
truths.

Add to this the ever present numbers game being played in high end
audio. MP3 and redbook CD are BAD because their numbers don't compare
with those of high resolution audio but analog, as in the turntables you
so love, which has numbers (measurements) which are way worse in every
possible way than even those of redbook CD is considered to be the holy
grail of audio. And I haven't even mentioned vacuum tubes. You can't
have it both ways unless, of course, you're being dishonest about one or
the other or both.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-06-22 19:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
Please if you take this hobby seriously then why on earth do you so
willingly and without question take all the nonsense being spewed from
the various high end audio magazines, web sites and marketing
departments as high holy truths?
We all see what you did here. I mean, you aren't inventing new internet
debate tactics. Try again.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-06-22 19:30:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
And I haven't even mentioned vacuum tubes.
Yeah, I bet you could go on for 30 seconds on everything you learned
about circuit design 30 years ago in that one EE101 course. It's like,
because there are transistors, then there can't be circuits designed any
other way. LOL. And you could also maybe go off on a rant against tube
rectified power supplies. You built a power supply that one time.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-06-22 19:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
We all see what you did here. I mean, you aren't inventing new internet
debate tactics. Try again.
I'm not debating with you since that would be pointless and unfair.
Post by jh901
Yeah, I bet you could go on for 30 seconds on everything you learned
about circuit design 30 years ago in that one EE101 course. It's like,
because there are transistors, then there can't be circuits designed any
other way. LOL. And you could also maybe go off on a rant against tube
rectified power supplies. You built a power supply that one time.
Vacuum tubes have a place in the world but that place is no longer in
the world of audio equipment. Enough said.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-06-22 19:39:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
Vacuum tubes have a place in the world but that place is no longer in
the world of audio equipment. Enough said.
Actually, you didn't say anything worthy of posting in public for all to
read. You have no background in amplification circuit design. You can
only get away with this sort of declaration for so long until you are
called out. Let's turn this ship around, Ralph. You don't need to be
humiliated. Change the tone here on your own.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-06-22 19:51:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
Actually, you didn't say anything worthy of posting in public for all to
read. You have no background in amplification circuit design. You can
only get away with this sort of declaration for so long until you are
called out. Let's turn this ship around, Ralph. You don't need to be
humiliated. Change the tone here on your own.
Numbers, numbers, numbers - vacuum tube power amplifiers measure much
worse in just about every possible way than properly designed, modern
solid state power amplifiers. But as I stated previously in the high end
audio world numbers can mean whatever you want them to mean and can be
used to both win or lose an argument. But then again, measurements are
facts and facts have no place in high end audio and no meaning to
audiophiles.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Julf
2015-06-22 21:37:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
You have no background in amplification circuit design.
And you do?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
dasmueller
2015-06-23 00:19:20 UTC
Permalink
The road goes on forever.

Most of this is way beyond me but I think the thread is a hoot !


------------------------------------------------------------------------
dasmueller's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=38035
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
garym
2015-06-23 00:22:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by dasmueller
The road goes on forever.
Most of this is way beyond me but I think the thread is a hoot !
Yes, a good example of so-called "first-world problems". :p



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
(all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
------------------------------------------------------------------------
garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-06-23 11:54:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
Actually, you didn't say anything worthy of posting in public for all to
read. You have no background in amplification circuit design.
What constitutes a "Background in amplification circuit design?"
Post by jh901
You can only get away with this sort of declaration for so long until
you are called out.
Actually, the following statement:

"Vacuum tubes have a place in the world but that place is no longer in
the world of audio equipment."

appears to be in agreement with the modern technical consensus. it
appears to be in agreement with modern audio circuit design as practiced
by the mainstream.

Please explain what is wrong with the above statement.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-06-23 12:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
What constitutes a "Background in amplification circuit design?"
"Vacuum tubes have a place in the world but that place is no longer in
the world of audio equipment."
appears to be in agreement with the modern technical consensus. it
appears to be in agreement with modern audio circuit design as practiced
by the mainstream.
Please explain what is wrong with the above statement.
Arny - Thanks for coming to my defense. I think that you already know
that this whole discussion has now become pointless. I have clearly won
the argument and so jh901 has to resort to personal attacks (as in
"you're not qualified.....blah, blah, blah"). As I stated earlier
arguing with kool-aid drinking audiophiles is too much like shooting
fish in a barrel.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
pinkdot
2015-06-24 11:30:55 UTC
Permalink
I'm trying to buy, borrow, or steal a clue as to why JH901 has any
credentials that put him as far above the rest of us as he seems to
believe that he is. But it could be all moot.
I could be wrong, but methinks that Elvis has left the building... ;-)
Just 'Tweet' (https://twitter.com/jh901) him if you want to know :-)



-Logitech Media Server 7.9.0 ('LMS-Repack'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103636-Test-Repo-for-LMS-7-9-0-on-Synology-DSM-5-*&p=817970&viewfull=1#post817970))
-Raspberry B+ (piCorePlayer), HifiBerry - Cambridge Azur 840A -PMC GB1i
-2x Radio
-Laptop - openSUSE - Squeezelite
------------------------------------------------------------------------
pinkdot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34644
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-06-24 13:59:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by pinkdot
Just 'Tweet' (https://twitter.com/jh901) him if you want to know :-)
You into Doxxing? Is that what we've come to? Over audio gear?

As for Ralph, well, he's out to "win". I don't know what he's ever won
in the past five years here.

Arnyk has the makings of an internet legend. Clearly borderline into
Doxxing too, which is just awesome. He did invent ABX though and he's
always got science on his side. Super.

Keep in mind that that there are passionate audiophiles who post to
forums in order to share and learn about the hobby and not to go to war
with the hopes of declaring victory.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Julf
2015-06-24 15:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
You into Doxxing? Is that what we've come to? Over audio gear?
As for Ralph, well, he's out to "win". I don't know what he's ever won
in the past five years here.
Arnyk has the makings of an internet legend. Clearly borderline into
Doxxing too, which is just awesome. He did invent ABX though and he's
always got science on his side. Super.
Keep in mind that that there are passionate audiophiles who post to
forums in order to share and learn about the hobby and not to go to war
with the hopes of declaring victory.
Could we please try to do without all the personal attacks/insults?
Maybe we need our own version of Godwin's Law - when you have to resort
to personal attacks, you have already lost the discussion.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-06-24 15:55:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julf
Could we please try to do without all the personal attacks/insults?
Maybe we need our own version of Godwin's Law - when you have to resort
to personal attacks, you have already lost the discussion.
You're ok with the doxxing though? And the actual personal attacks that
I'm getting?

What "discussion" did I lose?



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-06-24 16:00:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
What "discussion" did I lose?
Neither Science nor Relevance are exactly on your side at this point and
the preponderance of the personal attacks seem to be sourced with you.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
pinkdot
2015-06-24 16:37:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
You're ok with the doxxing though?
I don't know what your definition of doxing is, but imo pointing to a
social media account which is part of public information isn't.



-Logitech Media Server 7.9.0 ('LMS-Repack'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103636-Test-Repo-for-LMS-7-9-0-on-Synology-DSM-5-*&p=817970&viewfull=1#post817970))
-Raspberry B+ (piCorePlayer), HifiBerry - Cambridge Azur 840A -PMC GB1i
-2x Radio
-Laptop - openSUSE - Squeezelite
------------------------------------------------------------------------
pinkdot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34644
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Julf
2015-06-24 17:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
What "discussion" did I lose?
Good point - we are so far down the line of personal insults and attacks
that nobody remembers what the original point was (I guess the original
point of this particular thread was "these horrible, rude rationalists
are offending my belief system by successfully challenging it, so we
should close this whole sub-forum").



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-06-24 21:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
You're ok with the doxxing though?
False claim. Whining about information that you intentionally put into
the public domain just makes you look immature and silly.
Post by jh901
And the actual personal attacks that I'm getting?
Letsee, there was a rational discussion going on, you jumped in and made
a number of insults, and then got back a fraction of what you put out.
Post by jh901
What "discussion" did I lose?
The one where you were asked a number of polite questions and had no
answers for them.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-06-24 22:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
False claim. Whining about information that you intentionally put into
the public domain just makes you look immature and silly.
I don't claim to be putting info into public (on Twitter), but doxxing
can start by digging around for easy stuff and then escalating. I
haven't posted anything here which rises to the level where a fellow
member should be compelled to go down that road even just a tiny bit.
Post by arnyk
Letsee, there was a rational discussion going on, you jumped in and made
a number of insults, and then got back a fraction of what you put out.
My sincerest apologies for all indiscretions. I posted a couple of
links intended to generate rational discussion. I'll post more
cautiously going forward.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
castalla
2015-06-24 22:36:54 UTC
Permalink
I for one am totally sick of this infantile bickering - just replying to
the thread title.



Touch - Muse M50 EX TPA3123 T-Amp Mini - Acoustics Q10 speakers
Logitech Radio
Logitech UE Smart Radio
Raspberry Pi + Squeezeplug LMS + Squeezelite
Cubieboard + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100
bluetooth speaker
O2 Joggler + SqpOS + Aune X2 T-amp + Mordaunt Short ms-3.40 speakers
IBOX + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100 bluetooth
speaker
Squeeze2upnp - Sonos Play1 & Vistron internet radio (Reciva)
Pure One Flow
------------------------------------------------------------------------
castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Archimago
2015-06-22 21:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
You are a grown man who is apparently so determined to be "right" that
you rely nearly exclusively on logical fallacy. Copper isn't just
copper. First of all, there is the purity. Second, the gauge. More
importantly, however, is that
_no_one_is_debating_the_sound_of_strands_of_copper_. Speaker cable
designs have unique geometries and they certainly have unique
dielectrics. So, no informed audiophile is on the other side of this
argument. If all copper based speaker cables sound the same in a given
audio system irrespective of any variations in design, then the problem
is with the system components or set-up. Finally, non-audiophiles who
dismiss speaker cables as all delivering the same fidelity are also
implying that all silver and copper designs will deliver the same
result.
I would not expect a non-hobbyist to care about these things. Radio
Shack zip cord, hit play, hear sound. Done.
It would be nice if this forum could be transformed into something
productive.
Okay. Let's talk...

1. Please explain my logical fallacy that I "rely nearly exclusively"
on. Interesting assertion and I make no claims to be perfect in thought.
But to what illogic are you referring to sir?

2. Yes. Copper has different purity. And it has different gauge. I
explained 'these things here'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/10/diy-musings-bi-wired-canare-4s11-and.html)
as it applies to speaker cables. Of course things could get so bad that
there's signal degradation. Did I ever deny this? Are you saying that a
typical $25 spool of OFC 99.95-99.99% copper is not good enough purity
for audio? Are you saying that 12G thickness is not good enough? To what
importance are you also implying about geometry and dielectrics in audio
electronics? Please be clear...

3. It is because I want to be an -informed consumer- that I care if
Radio Shack zip cords are good enough. That's just one of the rights we
have of being consumers and one I advise people to exercise. And it is
precisely that I am a hobbyist that I care to evaluate the components
for relative merits around claims. Whether a person uses Radio Shack
components or not does not make a person any more or less of a
"hobbyist". That just reeks of elitism and what I speak of as the
hedonistic function of luxury items.

4. Are your posts "productive", how so?



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
pinkdot
2015-06-22 05:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Looks like a good idea. Close it. But point out in a sticky that the
'General Discussion' subforum isn't the new place to start this kind of
threads.



-Logitech Media Server 7.9.0 ('LMS-Repack'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103636-Test-Repo-for-LMS-7-9-0-on-Synology-DSM-5-*&p=817970&viewfull=1#post817970))
-Raspberry B+ (piCorePlayer), HifiBerry - Cambridge Azur 840A -PMC GB1i
-2x Radio
-Laptop - openSUSE - Squeezelite
------------------------------------------------------------------------
pinkdot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34644
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Mnyb
2015-06-22 06:35:56 UTC
Permalink
No i think this forum shall remain . It's one the few where squeezeboxes
and audio can be discussed together .

And it's a breathing hole from most of the anti intellectual
pseudoscience that have debilitated our hobby ?

There is a lot of audio stuff worthy of discussion .

And it's actually also worth to discuss some of the pseudoscience to ,
namely how this kind of thinking sort of creep in to the design stage of
products when the commercial magazines and other sites does completely
uncritical coverage of products .
It refreshing to someone voice opinions somewhere .
Many really expensive products are of increasingly weird design , if
someone made an effort and a good looking product that cost a lot that
does not automatically make it worthwhile . But the absolute sound for
example would never figure it out ?

And how the backwards thinking slows progress . Finally about 20-30
years to late we are beginning to se more active speakers ?
And the promising developments in switchmode tech that hypex and NAD
have done ( previously I was not impressed by earlier efforts , but I
ultimately thinks this will be better than traditional amps in every way
).

If other forums are filled with endless treads about the greatest
sounding USB cables does not mean they contribute in any way to the
progress of audio or is of any help to the ones interested , the
opposite is more likely.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
JJZolx
2015-06-22 06:55:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mnyb
No i think this forum shall remain . It's one the few where squeezeboxes
and audio can be discussed together .
Except that they are not. EVER.

Nuke it.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-06-22 09:40:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by jkeny
I haven't been a frequenter of this forum for a while - only just
participated in it after a long hiatus but I notice a rash of posts from
a core group of posters who seem to want to embarrass & denigrate
anybody who posts their sonic impressions.
Given the outcome of those threads that you started after the long
hiatus Jkeny, I can see why you would now wish to cover your tracks! ;-)

What effect have they had on your DAC product sales on your web site?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
toby10
2015-06-22 11:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Seriously? Close the forum because you donÂ’t like it? I find it
entertaining, obviously others agree.

If you are that offended by this forum then simply stop reading &
posting to this forum (which is the same result as closing the forumÂ…Â….
for you). Meanwhile leaving well enough alone for those who do enjoy
it.

I donÂ’t like tofu as itÂ’s taste & texture offends me. But IÂ’m not going
to lobby my local grocer to stop selling it or ask the moderators of the
tofu forums to cease. Silly!

http://able2know.org/forum/tofu/


------------------------------------------------------------------------
toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
utgg
2015-06-22 12:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by toby10
Seriously? Close the forum because you donÂ’t like it? I find it
entertaining, obviously others agree.
If you are that offended by this forum then simply stop reading &
posting to this forum (which is the same result as closing the forumÂ…Â….
for you). Meanwhile leaving well enough alone for those who do enjoy
it.
I donÂ’t like tofu as itÂ’s taste & texture offends me. But IÂ’m not going
to lobby my local grocer to stop selling it or ask the moderators of the
tofu forums to cease. Silly!
http://able2know.org/forum/tofu/
I agree; keep it open. It is all very entertaining.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
utgg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40900
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
garym
2015-06-22 13:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mnyb
No i think this forum shall remain . It's one the few where squeezeboxes
and audio can be discussed together .
And it's a breathing hole from most of the anti intellectual
pseudoscience that have debilitated our hobby ?
There is a lot of audio stuff worthy of discussion .
And it's actually also worth to discuss some of the pseudoscience to ,
namely how this kind of thinking sort of creep in to the design stage of
products when the commercial magazines and other sites does completely
uncritical coverage of products .
It refreshing to someone voice opinions somewhere .
Many really expensive products are of increasingly weird design , if
someone made an effort and a good looking product that cost a lot that
does not automatically make it worthwhile . But the absolute sound for
example would never figure it out ?
And how the backwards thinking slows progress . Finally about 20-30
years to late we are beginning to se more active speakers ?
And the promising developments in switchmode tech that hypex and NAD
have done ( previously I was not impressed by earlier efforts , but I
ultimately thinks this will be better than traditional amps in every way
).
If other forums are filled with endless treads about the greatest
sounding USB cables does not mean they contribute in any way to the
progress of audio or is of any help to the ones interested , the
opposite is more likely.
Seriously? Close the forum because you don&#8217;t like it? I find it
entertaining, obviously others agree.
If you are that offended by this forum then simply stop reading &
posting to this forum (which is the same result as closing the
forum&#8230;&#8230;. for you). Meanwhile leaving well enough alone for
those who do enjoy it.
I don&#8217;t like tofu as it&#8217;s taste & texture offends me. But
I&#8217;m not going to lobby my local grocer to stop selling it or ask
the moderators of the tofu forums to cease. Silly!
http://able2know.org/forum/tofu/
Agree. We're all adults here. And it's an internet forum. If one doesn't
have thick enough skin, one shouldn't post or read here (or virtually
any other internet discussion forum). No one is forced to read this
forum, and if there are particular posters that annoy you, it is simple
to place them in "ignore" mode so you don't see their posts.



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
w/Battery (all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
------------------------------------------------------------------------
garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-06-22 14:33:29 UTC
Permalink
I say keep this sub section open. I rather enjoy taking potshots at the
kool-aid drinking audiophiles but I have to admit it is getting to be
too much like shooting fish in a barrel.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-06-22 15:16:10 UTC
Permalink
I rather enjoy taking potshots at the kool-aid drinking audiophiles but
I have to admit it is getting to be too much like shooting fish in a
barrel.
This is the "Audiophile" sub-section, so why would those who aren't
interested in such things post here? If you were the moderator, then
would you encourage thread-craps and personal attacks?

Finally, what does it say about you and few of your followers who derive
such pleasure from attacking others?



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-06-22 15:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
This is the "Audiophile" sub-section, so why would those who aren't
interested in such things post here? If you were the moderator, then
would you encourage thread-craps and personal attacks?
Finally, what does it say about you and few of your followers who derive
such pleasure from attacking others?
Like I said the pleasure is fading since t is getting to be too much
like shooting fish in a barrel.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-06-22 15:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
Like I said the pleasure is fading since t is getting to be too much
like shooting fish in a barrel.
Seriously, I feel sorry for you and others such as yourself. Your
internet persona is destructive. Kill it off and just calm down and try
to engage in a civil discussion. You don't know everything. Accept
that this is a GOOD thing. Is there anything better than exercising
one's curiosity!?



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-06-22 16:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
Seriously, I feel sorry for you and others such as yourself. Your
internet persona is destructive. Kill it off and just calm down and try
to engage in a civil discussion. You don't know everything. Accept
that this is a GOOD thing. Is there anything better than exercising
one's curiosity!?
Unfortunately posting on an internet forum leaves little room for
sarcasm and other ways of conveying that many of one's comments should
be taken lightly.

Now I don't claim to know everything but I do claim understand quite a
few things about audio, science and the science of audio. I also
understand that there are many things that others do not understand
about audio, science and the science of audio and that this lack of
understanding is all too often used to propagate ideas and beliefs that
are simply untrue. Just because paid reviewers with agenda to adhere to,
i.e. to keep the advertisers happy, claim that $500 USB cables sound
better than $20 USB cables doesn't make it so. But it is part of human
nature that the more one repeats something, whether it be truth or
falsehood, the more likely it is for people to believe it. This
principle has been used over and over again in high end audio with great
results and lots of high profit margins. Power cords can not and do not
effect the sound of a component. Why? Because doing so would violate
many of the physical LAWS of electricity and as I keep repeating over
and over these LAWS cannot be broken, a least within the world and
dimension that we live in.

By the way, for a clear example of the principle that repeating a lie
can make it true please answer this question off the op of head without
looking it up: How do fire sprinkler systems in buildings work? You know
those little devices located in the ceiling that spray water on fire.
Your answer, if it is the one I expect, will go long in proving my
point.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Julf
2015-06-22 15:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by toby10
Seriously? Close the forum because you donÂ’t like it?
I don't think "don't like it" really describes it - it is more like the
fundamentalist religious viewpoint of "there are rational arguments
presented here that offend me because they put my belief system in a bad
light, so I demand they be banned!".



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
mooblie
2015-06-22 15:52:57 UTC
Permalink
+1 to keep it, if only to keep the more volatile discussions here, and
out of the rest of the Slim forums. I personally also find this forum
entertaining, and closing it would smack of censorship/discrimination.



Martin at
*_'HeadSpin_HD'
(http://www.headspin.plus.com)_* now on -*Blu-ray-*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
mooblie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15378
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Julf
2015-06-22 17:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by jkeny
I find the recent posts & threads that have been started are mostly from
a group of people who are only interested in displaying their
self-deluded scientific superiority by putting down anybody who posts
sonic impressions.
Really?

In order to have a rational, fact-based discussion about this topic,
would it be possible for you to point out which threads you are
referring to, and what percentage of threads started in, let's say, the
last 3 months, that represents?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
pinkdot
2015-06-29 15:46:34 UTC
Permalink
Other than blocking peple, is it possible to block a subforum. I want a
'cleaner' timeline!!!



-Logitech Media Server 7.9.0 ('LMS-Repack'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103636-Test-Repo-for-LMS-7-9-0-on-Synology-DSM-5-*&p=817970&viewfull=1#post817970))
-Raspberry B+ (piCorePlayer), HifiBerry - Cambridge Azur 840A -PMC GB1i
-2x Radio
-Laptop - openSUSE - Squeezelite
------------------------------------------------------------------------
pinkdot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34644
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
darrenyeats
2015-07-06 17:08:43 UTC
Permalink
I'm pretty sick of this forum, which is why haven't posted here for a
while. This thread is an apt time and place to express my feelings.

A while ago I wrote here
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?100440-Anyone-used-this-AudiophileOptimizer&p=773022&viewfull=1#post773022:
"Guys, you are coming across like some vigilantes patrolling the forum
with burning torches, ready to beat up anyone who says anything
foo-like."

This isn't a forum for scientific peer review, it's an audio forum.
Chill.

A moderator on another forum wrote: "you can have an amazing system in
the home for exactly what I paid for mine. A penny more means you're
recklessly wasteful -- a veritable prodigal son of hi-fi buying -- and a
penny less means you're a skint bastard." OH HOW TRUE!

Perhaps some of the rationalists here should take a look at their own
systems, all the excuses about wanting features, reliability etc are BS,
you bought that kit because you thought it sounds good. And where is
your scientific evidence that you were right?

We're all in it because we like good sound and don't deny it.

It's just a hobby. Nobody outside this small group gives a row of beans
about what systems we have, or these ridiculous internet arguments.

Try to enjoy the hobby, it should be fun - and the music before that.
Darren



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Julf
2015-07-06 20:42:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by darrenyeats
This isn't a forum for scientific peer review, it's an audio forum.
So does that mean that any old hearsay and superstition is OK?
Post by darrenyeats
Chill.
Indeed. Just because everybody doesn't accept your particular beliefs
shouldn't be a reason for you to feel offended.
Post by darrenyeats
Perhaps some of the rationalists here should take a look at their own
systems, all the excuses about wanting features, reliability etc are BS,
you bought that kit because you thought it did, or would, sound good. Do
you absolutely know you made the optimal cost-effective choice?
We're all in it because we like good sound and don't deny it.
We like good sound. We don't justify it by voodoo and hocus pocus.
Post by darrenyeats
It's just a hobby. Nobody outside this small group gives a row of beans
about what systems we have, or these ridiculous internet arguments.
Indeed. So why does it matter to you that we don't believe in
pseudoscience?
Post by darrenyeats
Try to enjoy the hobby, it should be fun - and enjoy the music before
that.
Precisely. What matters is the music - not the fricking USB cable or
file format.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-07-06 21:24:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by darrenyeats
I'm pretty sick of this forum, which is why haven't posted here for a
while. This thread is an apt time and place to express my feelings.
A while ago I wrote here
"Guys, you are coming across like some vigilantes patrolling the forum
with burning torches, ready to beat up anyone who says anything
foo-like."
This isn't a forum for scientific peer review, it's an audio forum.
Chill.
A moderator on another forum wrote: "you can have an amazing system in
the home for exactly what I paid for mine. A penny more means you're
recklessly wasteful -- a veritable prodigal son of hi-fi buying -- and a
penny less means you're a skint bastard." OH HOW TRUE!
Perhaps some of the rationalists here should take a look at their own
systems, all the excuses about wanting features, reliability etc are BS,
you bought that kit because you thought it did, or would, sound good. Do
you absolutely know you made the optimal cost-effective choice?
We're all in it because we like good sound and don't deny it.
It's just a hobby. Nobody outside this small group gives a row of beans
about what systems we have, or these ridiculous internet arguments.
Try to enjoy the hobby, it should be fun - and enjoy the music before
that.
Darren
So does that mean that any old hearsay and superstition is OK?
Indeed. Just because everybody doesn't accept your particular beliefs
shouldn't be a reason for you to feel offended.
We like good sound. We don't justify it by voodoo and hocus pocus.
Indeed. So why does it matter to you that we don't believe in
pseudoscience?
Precisely. What matters is the music - not the fricking USB cable or
file format.
At first I was not going to respond to Darren's post since I felt that
he has/had the right to vent and then I saw Julf's response (both are
quoted above). Now I think that some type of response is called for.

As I have stated over and over again I really don't care what any
individual audiophile chooses to believe since everyone has the right to
their own opinion but I do have a few conditions to that blanket
statement:

1) When an audiophile mistakes opinion for fact

2) When the audiophile expressing an opinion has a stake in the game, in
other words when there is money involved.

As an example of the first condition an audiophile can state that they
believe that some expensive, audiophile USB cable improved the sound of
their system, however they should not state that the same expensive,
audiophile USB cable WILL improve that sound of MY audio system since
they have no proof that this is true.

As an example of the second condition would be if the audiophile stating
that some expensive, audiophile USB cable improved the sound of their
system is stating this in a review for some audiophile publication, a
publication which depends on advertising revenue from the manufacturer
of the USB cable.

I know that I for one find it very annoying that the audiophile world
has chosen to discredit the entire Squeezebox system of streaming music
to one's stereo system by damning the system with faint praise, e.g. "a
SB Touch is great for streaming Pandora as background music but for
serious listening nothing beats an SACD player". This discrediting is
accomplished mainly by spreading completely unproven misinformation
about digital audio, such as things like there being audible differences
between various types of digital storage mediums or Ethernet and USB
cables, and a steadfast refusal to do direct comparisons, sighted or
blind, between a SACD player and a SB Touch with an external DAC. So
yeah, I get a little testy when I'm being told that my main source of
music is not up to par, especially when I have done my own direct
comparisons and found the Squeezebox devices to be on par with a CD or
SACD player.

And my annoyance is doubled when find these types of statements being
posted on a forum about Squeezeboxes.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-07-06 23:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by darrenyeats
I'm pretty sick of this forum, which is why haven't posted here for a
while. This thread is an apt time and place to express my feelings.
A while ago I wrote here
"Guys, you are coming across like some vigilantes patrolling the forum
with burning torches, ready to beat up anyone who says anything
foo-like."
This isn't a forum for scientific peer review, it's an audio forum.
Chill.
A moderator on another forum wrote: "you can have an amazing system in
the home for exactly what I paid for mine. A penny more means you're
recklessly wasteful -- a veritable prodigal son of hi-fi buying -- and a
penny less means you're a skint bastard." OH HOW TRUE!
Perhaps some of the rationalists here should take a look at their own
systems, all the excuses about wanting features, reliability etc are BS,
you bought that kit because you thought it did, or would, sound good. Do
you absolutely know you made the optimal cost-effective choice?
We're all in it because we like good sound and don't deny it.
It's just a hobby. Nobody outside this small group gives a row of beans
about what systems we have, or these ridiculous internet arguments.
Try to enjoy the hobby, it should be fun - and enjoy the music before
that.
Darren
This seems like a post from someone who is seeking affirmation for
potentially bad technical choices as opposed to reliable technical
information.

Statements like "We're all in it because we like good sound and don't
deny it." suggests to me a deeply held cultural belief that good
technical choices that might also be cost effective must compromise
sound quality.

This one is truly telling:

"Nobody outside this small group gives a row of beans about what systems
we have, or these ridiculous internet arguments."

it basically says that the rationalist viewpoint is nothing but
"...ridiculous internet arguments."

But it first says this: "Nobody outside this small group gives a row of
beans about what systems we have." which can easily be taken as support
for the rationalist viewpoint.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
castalla
2015-07-06 23:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
This seems like a post from someone who is seeking affirmation for
potentially bad technical choices as opposed to reliable technical
information.
Statements like "We're all in it because we like good sound and don't
deny it." suggests to me a deeply held cultural belief that good
technical choices that might also be cost effective must compromise
sound quality.
"Nobody outside this small group gives a row of beans about what systems
we have, or these ridiculous internet arguments."
it basically says that the rationalist viewpoint is nothing but
"...ridiculous internet arguments."
But it first says this: "Nobody outside this small group gives a row of
beans about what systems we have." which can easily be taken as support
for the rationalist viewpoint.
Enough already! We don't care.



Touch - Muse M50 EX TPA3123 T-Amp Mini - Acoustics Q10 speakers
Logitech Radio
Logitech UE Smart Radio
Raspberry Pi + Squeezeplug LMS + Squeezelite
Cubieboard + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100
bluetooth speaker
O2 Joggler + SqpOS + Aune X2 T-amp + Mordaunt Short ms-3.40 speakers
IBOX + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100 bluetooth
speaker
Squeeze2upnp - Sonos Play1 & Vistron internet radio (Reciva)
Pure One Flow
------------------------------------------------------------------------
castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
MichaelJ
2015-07-07 00:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by castalla
Enough already! We don't care.
We? You don't care...don't presume to speak for me!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
MichaelJ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43215
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
castalla
2015-07-07 00:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by MichaelJ
We? You don't care...don't presume to speak for me!
No - continue your futile discussion if you want. I'm just replying to
the topic question - I'm sick of the recent spate of threads.



Touch - Muse M50 EX TPA3123 T-Amp Mini - Acoustics Q10 speakers
Logitech Radio
Logitech UE Smart Radio
Raspberry Pi + Squeezeplug LMS + Squeezelite
Cubieboard + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100
bluetooth speaker
O2 Joggler + SqpOS + Aune X2 T-amp + Mordaunt Short ms-3.40 speakers
IBOX + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100 bluetooth
speaker
Squeeze2upnp - Sonos Play1 & Vistron internet radio (Reciva)
Pure One Flow
------------------------------------------------------------------------
castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
utgg
2015-07-07 07:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by MichaelJ
We? You don't care...don't presume to speak for me!
Nor me. I do care, and have found the recent combative threads quite
entertaining. There is also quite a bit of information coming out from
Archimago and Arny that I find quite interesting.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
utgg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40900
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
cliveb
2015-07-07 10:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Y'know, I think the problem is as follows:

There are quite a few fruitcakes around with crazy beliefs about audio
engineering. They have a habit of posting their thoughts for the
"benefit" of we poor souls who have not yet seen the light. (That's what
crazies do on the internet, regardless of the topic under discussion).
Most rational people might try to engage them for a short time before
shrugging and moving on.

A flame war only starts when someone calls BS and is then prepared to
slug it out for an interminable time. It only needs one rational person
to get reeled in and keep on arguing for things to get out of hand. And
we have recently acquired such a person on this forum. He knows his
stuff, but he's a persistent, stubborn SOB. He tends to be the locus of
many flame wars on a number of audio boards I've visited over the
years.

Just because you're correct doesn't give you the right to drag our forum
down to the level that wrecked rec.audio.opinion. The crazies won't give
up, so just turn the other cheek and let it go. The phrase "don't feed
the trolls" is a genuinely useful piece of advice. You know who you are.
I admire your depth of knowledge and would always listen to your
technical advice. And I understand that you're on some kind of mission.
But please take your mission elsewhere so the rest of us can just ignore
the crazies until they go away.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
------------------------------------------------------------------------
cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Julf
2015-07-07 11:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by cliveb
A flame war only starts when someone calls BS and is then prepared to
slug it out for an interminable time. It only needs one rational person
to get reeled in and keep on arguing for things to get out of hand. And
we have recently acquired such a person on this forum. He knows his
stuff, but he's a persistent, stubborn SOB. He tends to be the locus of
many flame wars on a number of audio boards I've visited over the
years.
Just because you're correct doesn't give you the right to drag our forum
down to the level that wrecked rec.audio.opinion. The crazies won't give
up, so just turn the other cheek and let it go. The phrase "don't feed
the trolls" is a genuinely useful piece of advice. You know who you are.
I admire your depth of knowledge and would always listen to your
technical advice. And I understand that you're on some kind of mission.
But please take your mission elsewhere so the rest of us can just ignore
the crazies until they go away.
Unfortunately that description applies to several of us. :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-07-07 11:47:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by cliveb
Just because you're correct doesn't give you the right to drag our forum
down to the level that wrecked rec.audio.opinion.
Just because name or names aren't mentioned doesn't keep a libelous post
from being a personal attack.

The fact of the matter is that the pernicious personalities that dragged
rec.audio.opinion down are still there, still holding forth, still
mentioning my name and continuing to libel the same person as you do,
these many years later.

It was about being right but not about being technically correct.

It was about control, harassment, personal attacks, and not forgetting
the past, just like what we see in this post.

You obviously haven't forgotten, but until this little piece of fecal
material showed up on my screen, I pretty much had. Thanks for being
yourself and reminding me about some really bad times and voicing your
support for those people. It is just another example of the prerequisite
subjectivist personal attack. It is what you get when you put personal
opinions ahead of the facts.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
cliveb
2015-07-08 10:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
Just because name or names aren't mentioned doesn't keep a libelous post
from being a personal attack.
Arny, in a formal sense it was indeed a personal attack - not on your
knowledge, but on your attitude. A personal attack is reprehensible when
used as an attempt to deflect from the point of debate. But in the
context of this thread ("is anyone sick of the recent spate of
threads?"), the point of the debate is to discuss whether (and if so,
why) this forum has recently descended into the gutter.

To that end, I was observing that when things get out of hand on audio
forums, you are often involved. I genuinely appreciate your technical
knowledge and you are invariably right. But you're like a pit-bull who
just won't let go. And by keeping the argument going with people who
cannot be reasoned with, you and your opponents degrade the S/N ratio of
a forum.

Your long-term credentials are impressive. But that doesn't alter the
fact that you are the new kid on this particular forum, and in just 60
or so days since joining you've posted over 220 times, usually to argue
with someone. It doesn't matter that you're right - what matters is that
since you joined this forum, the value of its content has significantly
deteriorated.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
------------------------------------------------------------------------
cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Julf
2015-07-08 11:34:57 UTC
Permalink
But you're like a pit-bull who just won't let go. And by keeping the
argument going with people who cannot be reasoned with, you and your
opponents degrade the S/N ratio of a forum.
So what you are advocating is to let those who cannot be reasoned with
have the last word (despite being patently wrong) just because they are
even more boneheaded?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-07-08 11:58:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julf
So what you are advocating is to let those who cannot be reasoned with
have the last word (despite being patently wrong) just because they are
even more boneheaded?
Given that many audiophiles cannot be dissuaded from their beliefs
perhaps this would be a better approach:

When responding to some audiophile claim that is totally unsupported by
science and hard evidence how about just presenting the facts and the
science which belie the claim so that other more reasonable people can
make their judgement.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-07-08 12:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julf
So what you are advocating is to let those who cannot be reasoned with
have the last word (despite being patently wrong) just because they are
even more boneheaded?
When people lock themselves into logic tight boxes, they are out of
reach.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
cliveb
2015-07-08 12:05:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julf
So what you are advocating is to let those who cannot be reasoned with
have the last word (despite being patently wrong) just because they are
even more boneheaded?
What I'm advocating is that the best way to deal with them is to
initially post a polite and reasoned explanation why they are wrong.
Other rational folk will read this and understand. Those who don't want
to understand will never come around, so further discourse is pointless.
After that, just ignore the continued rantings of the crazies. They are
in this to get a rise out of their adversaries. If that is not
forthcoming, the will soon get bored and go somewhere else.

The evidence is before our eyes. Since Arny joined this forum, the
crazies have got more and more vocal, and my hypothesis is that they
have done so precisely because Arny has engaged with them.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
------------------------------------------------------------------------
cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-07-08 13:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by cliveb
What I'm advocating is that the best way to deal with them is to
initially post a polite and reasoned explanation why they are wrong.
Other rational folk will read this and understand. Those who don't want
to understand will never come around, so further discourse is pointless.
After that, just ignore the continued rantings of the crazies. They are
in this to get a rise out of their adversaries. If that is not
forthcoming, they will soon get bored and go somewhere else.
The evidence is before our eyes. Since Arny joined this forum, the
crazies have got more and more vocal, and my hypothesis is that they
have done so precisely because Arny has engaged with them.
Evidence is indeed before our eyes. The forum that is the centerpiece of
your argument is a totally unmoderated Usenet forum that is wildly
off-topic and out of control 5-10 years after the last time I posted
there regularly.

I was never the big problem because nothing changed when I left. The
crazies are still crazy. The forum is largely wildly off topic. The
scorched earth is still getting scorched.

Your poorly founded arguments and libelous claims are good examples of
exactly what you decry.

The argument is also fatally weakened because it ignores the fact that
it takes two to tango.

This thread is a great example, because it was started by one of the
crazies who obviously was well into arguing the topic to death after it
already once died a natural death.

Piling onto it and vilifying the person he obviously wanted to drive off
is a great example of biased and co-dependent behavior.

What actually happened is that moderation worked, and deprived of the
blood he lusted after, he again put his tail between his legs and
slinked off.

I suspect that someone advised him of the negative comercial effects of
the adverse facts that his trolling brought to light, related to the USB
Audio Snake Oil market segment.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
SlimChances
2015-07-08 13:33:50 UTC
Permalink
::'Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?'
Certainly sick of this one



Logitech Media Server Version: 7.9.0 - 1433229915 @ Wed Jun 3 04:05:09
UTC 2015
Operating system: Debian - EN - utf8 Platform Architecture:
x86_64-linux
Perl Version: 5.18.2 - x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi
Database Version: DBD::SQLite 1.34_01 (sqlite 3.7.7.1)


One SB Touch connected by ethernet - Denon AVR -1912 Receiver, Paradigm
4.1 speakers
Two SB Radios wireless
------------------------------------------------------------------------
SlimChances's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=165
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
cliveb
2015-07-08 14:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
Evidence is indeed before our eyes. The forum that is the centerpiece of
your argument is a totally unmoderated Usenet forum that is wildly
off-topic and out of control 5-10 years after the last time I posted
there regularly. Your attempt to conflate it with this forum demolishes
your arguments.
What are you talking about? I only briefly mentioned the r.a.o news
group as an example of what can happen. It is not the centrepiece of my
argument.

The actual centrepiece of my argument is that your enthusiastic
engagement with deluded audiofools is as much to blame for the
degeneration of audio forums as are their crazy postings. And that as a
supposedly rational person it's basically up to you to stop arguing,
because the crazies aren't going to. Furthermore, my concern is that you
are in danger of destroying this specific forum (the Slim Devices
audiophile one), which along with Hydrogen Audio is the only one I find
remotely worth reading.

And with that, I will take my own medicine and stop arguing with you.
I've made my point, and hope it has been clearly enough put that other
rational folk understand it.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
------------------------------------------------------------------------
cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-07-08 15:18:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by cliveb
What are you talking about? I only briefly mentioned the r.a.o news
group as an example of what can happen. It is not the centrepiece of my
argument.
Pure deflection. I debunked it so now you want to distance yourself from
it.
Post by cliveb
The actual centrepiece of my argument is that your enthusiastic
engagement with deluded audiofools is as much to blame for the
degeneration of audio forums as are their crazy postings.
That's just as wrong, but since you've already dismissed the logical
arguments against it...
Post by cliveb
And that as a supposedly rational person it's basically up to you to
stop arguing, because the crazies aren't going to.
Actually they often do give up, but since you are dismissing that proven
fact...
Post by cliveb
Furthermore, my concern is that you are in danger of destroying this
specific forum (the Slim Devices audiophile one), which along with
Hydrogen Audio is the only one I find remotely worth reading.
Many people see just as much danger in your incessant personal attacks
against me.

Um HA, where I have posted 5,878 times since 29 October 2008? This
averages out to being about twice a day. That seems to drive yet another
spike in your argument.

BTW, how did I avoid destroying HA? ;-)

What's unclear to you about "It takes two to tango"?
Post by cliveb
And with that, I will take my own medicine and stop arguing with you.
I've made my point, and hope it has been clearly enough put that other
rational folk understand it.
It is about time!

The point you've made with me is more along the line of as follows:
"What is really this guy's problem?" Friend of the last guy to go on a
vendetta against me?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
rgro
2015-07-08 17:22:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
Pure deflection. I debunked it so now you want to distance yourself from
it.
That's just as wrong, but since you've already dismissed the logical
arguments against it...
Actually they often do give up, but since you are dismissing that proven
fact...
Many people see just as much danger in your incessant personal attacks
against me.
Um HA, where I have posted 5,878 times since 29 October 2008? This
averages out to being about twice a day. That seems to drive yet another
spike in your argument.
BTW, how did I avoid destroying HA? ;-)
What's unclear to you about "It takes two to tango"?
It is about time!
"What is really this guy's problem?" Friend of the last guy to go on a
vendetta against me?
Truly remarkable. Just when I think Arny's posts can't get any more
amazing, he outdoes himself. This is so far afield from cliveb's post
that it makes Wrong Way Corrigan look like Magellan.



Rg

System information
------------------------
Main: Vortexbox/Squeezelite > USB> Benchmark DAC2 D > LFD LE IV
Signature amp > Revel Performa F208 speakers.

Home Theatre: Touch (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic
5.1, Touch FW 7.8.0-r16754.

LMS 7.9.0 - 0.71.20150313git1426153261 on a 1TB Micro Vortexbox
Appliance, V 2.3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
rgro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34348
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-07-08 17:31:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by rgro
Truly remarkable. Just when I think Arny's posts can't get any more
amazing, he outdoes himself. This is so far afield from cliveb's post
that it makes Wrong Way Corrigan look like Magellan.
Let us know when you ever become an internet legend. Arnie's work since
the dawn of the Usenet and the web will be noted for decades and decades
after we are all long forgotten.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-07-08 17:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
Let us know when you ever become an internet legend. Arnie's work since
the dawn of the Usenet and the web will be noted for decades and decades
after we are all long forgotten.
Note: there is a big difference between being famous and being infamous
:)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
rgro
2015-07-08 18:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh901
Let us know when you ever become an internet legend.
Don't hold your breath..........



Rg

System information
------------------------
Main: Vortexbox/Squeezelite > USB> Benchmark DAC2 D > LFD LE IV
Signature amp > Revel Performa F208 speakers.

Home Theatre: Touch (Wired) > Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic
5.1, Touch FW 7.8.0-r16754.

LMS 7.9.0 - 0.71.20150313git1426153261 on a 1TB Micro Vortexbox
Appliance, V 2.3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
rgro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34348
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Mnyb
2015-07-08 14:11:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by cliveb
What I'm advocating is that the best way to deal with them is to
initially post a polite and reasoned explanation why they are wrong.
Other rational folk will read this and understand. Those who don't want
to understand will never come around, so further discourse is pointless.
After that, just ignore the continued rantings of the crazies. They are
in this to get a rise out of their adversaries. If that is not
forthcoming, they will soon get bored and go somewhere else.
The evidence is before our eyes. Since Arny joined this forum, the
crazies have got more and more vocal, and my hypothesis is that they
have done so precisely because Arny has engaged with them.
Yes ideally that would be good , unless you get engaged in the
mudwrestling after the fact :D

In all other hobies ther are also overpriced gear cherished brandnames
and very subjective opinions , but they are usually closer to reality
and within reasoable fanboy behaviur i really like brand x or italian
sportcars ( even if similar performance can be has from US or japan).

But if I in a car forum claimed that my Corvette had 9 billion
horsepowers , I would probably be called upon that BS .

In audio forums we are suposed to accept claims that are even more
unreasonable ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Julf
2015-07-08 14:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mnyb
But if I in a car forum claimed that my Corvette had 9 billion
horsepowers , I would probably be called upon that BS .
Or that a magnet in the fuel line increases power by 60%.
Post by Mnyb
In audio forums we are suposed to accept claims that are even more
unreasonable ?
Yes, it is audio, after all. Audio is magic, art and emotion, and nobody
can tell you what you hear or don't hear.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
ralphpnj
2015-07-08 14:35:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mnyb
Yes ideally that would be good , unless you get engaged in the
mudwrestling after the fact :D
In all other hobies ther are also overpriced gear cherished brandnames
and very subjective opinions , but they are usually closer to reality
and within reasoable fanboy behaviur i really like brand x or italian
sportcars ( even if similar performance can be has from US or japan).
But if I in a car forum claimed that my Corvette had 9 billion
horsepowers , I would probably be called upon that BS .
In audio forums we are suposed to accept claims that are even more
unreasonable ?
Let's be clear here: almost 100% percent of the unscientific claims made
by audiophiles first appear in one or another of the various high end
audio publications (either print or web based), which are supposed to be
run by serious audio professionals.

What this means is that these serious audio professionals are anything
but professional. However why would anyone with a brain and a working
knowledge of logic expect anything else? These serious audio
professionals are all employed by in the publishing industry, an
industry which is wholly dependent on advertising revenue and one does
not generate advertising revenue by telling one's readers that the
products being sold by your advertisers are so much snake oil. Instead
these serious audio professionals provide legitimacy to the claims being
made by their advertisers. It is all just one big feedback loop with the
goal of removing money from the wallets of audiophiles.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Julf
2015-07-08 14:32:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by cliveb
The evidence is before our eyes. Since Arny joined this forum, the
crazies have got more and more vocal, and my hypothesis is that they
have done so precisely because Arny has engaged with them.
That is one hypothesis, and you might be right, or you might not. Hard
to tell what is the cause and what is the consequence. But assuming you
are right, isn't what you are saying the equivalent of telling <pick
your favourite minority> not to go out in the street, because they will
be beaten up, and you just can't stop violent and stupid people?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-07-07 06:39:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by castalla
Enough already! We don't care.
Is this a Royal We?

Don't you think it is presumptuous to purport to speak for people who in
fact disagree with you?

As far as I'm concerned I'm one person with one opinion, and so is
everybody else.

This is a marketplace of ideas, and we all bring what we have, and
people agree or disagree with it as they will.

People who disagree with that would appear to be overstepping their
personal bounds in order to lord it over people.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
SBGK
2015-07-07 12:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
Is this a Royal We?
Don't you think it is presumptuous to purport to speak for people who in
fact disagree with you?
As far as I'm concerned I'm one person with one opinion, and so is
everybody else.
This is a marketplace of ideas, and we all bring what we have, and
people agree or disagree with it as they will.
People who disagree with that would appear to be overstepping their
personal bounds in order to lord it over people.
and if the market is always right then the abx objectivists are
increasingly like the loon shouting the world is going to end while the
likes of jplay, regen, cable manufacturers etc walk away with the
spoils.



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Julf
2015-07-07 12:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by SBGK
and if the market is always right then the abx objectivists are
increasingly like the loon shouting the world is going to end while the
likes of jplay, regen, cable manufacturers etc walk away with the
spoils.
Nah, I guess that is just a sign of how the whole "high-end" hobby has
become marginalized and left to the loons. Back in the 60's and even
70's, technology mattered, so people paid attention to it and at least
tried to understand it. Now nobody cares, as it isn't technology but
marketing that rules.

The only ones that care about ABX and objective criteria are the
faceless engineers in development labs of the companies that actually
produce the technology (as opposed to the "designers" who merely package
the technology).



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-07-07 12:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by SBGK
and if the market is always right then the abx objectivists are
increasingly like the loon shouting the world is going to end while the
likes of jplay, regen, cable manufacturers etc walk away with the
spoils.
Let's not conflate commercial realities with technical truths.

If you go to the drugstore, what percentage of whats on the shelves are
unique effective medical tools, what percentage are things that work or
kinda work but are reasonably safe and are repackaged 7,600 (more or
less) different ways as cures for 7,600 different things, and what
percentage are placebos? Even in a context of over a century of legal
regulation, there are plenty of placebos and also quite a few examples
of about 8 different chemicals (aspirin, Acetaminophen, calcium
carbonate, capsaicin, Milk of Magnesia, etc.) repackaged literally
thousands of different ways as if they were unique solutions for common
human ailments.

In the case of audio, there has never been any effective government
regulation, the products have only been around a maximum of about half
as long, and there are plenty of examples of effective tools, things
that are semi-effective but repackaged many different ways, and
out-and-out placebos.

Why should I be surprised?

One of the more educational experience of my life has been the last 2
years that I have been going to Estate Sales. This is a legal way to
freely and intrusively peruse other people's lifestyles in excruciating
detail. So lets see, I go to about 10 estate sales a week and I've been
doing this weekly for about 2 years. That's about 1,000 different homes
in upscale communities that I've examined. I've found about 4
instances of high end audio cables or .4% market penetration.

The point is don't make the mistake of overestimating the market
penetration of high end audio cables. In the cosmic scheme of things, it
is a nit.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
SBGK
2015-07-08 11:19:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
Let's not conflate commercial realities with technical truths.
If you go to the drugstore, what percentage of whats on the shelves are
unique effective medical tools, what percentage are things that work or
kinda work but are reasonably safe and are repackaged 7,600 (more or
less) different ways as cures for 7,600 different things, and what
percentage are placebos? Even in a context of over a century of legal
regulation, there are plenty of placebos and also quite a few examples
of about 8 different chemicals (aspirin, Acetaminophen, calcium
carbonate, capsaicin, Milk of Magnesia, etc.) repackaged literally
thousands of different ways as if they were unique solutions for common
human ailments.
In the case of audio, there has never been any effective government
regulation, the products have only been around a maximum of about half
as long, and there are plenty of examples of effective tools, things
that are semi-effective but repackaged many different ways, and
out-and-out placebos.
Why should I be surprised?
One of the more educational experience of my life has been the last 2
years that I have been going to Estate Sales. This is a legal way to
freely and intrusively peruse other people's lifestyles in excruciating
detail. So lets see, I go to about 10 estate sales a week and I've been
doing this weekly for about 2 years. That's about 1,000 different homes
in upscale communities that I've examined. I've found about 4
instances of high end audio cables or .4% market penetration.
The point is don't make the mistake of overestimating the market
penetration of high end audio cables. In the cosmic scheme of things, it
is a nit.
Aren't estate sales mainly for the deceased, so you're mainly looking at
old peoples belongings, who may not have the same interest in high end
audio as others. I know none of my elderly neighbours or relatives have
anything more than a tv and a radio, with maybe the odd midi cd player
type system. Did they abx it before buying ?



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-07-08 12:48:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by SBGK
Aren't estate sales mainly for the deceased,
One phrase "Estate Sale" is used to cover a number of different
situations, including Divorce Sales, Moving Sales, Downsizing Sales, and
of course those regrettable sales triggered by the demise of the
surviving principle inhabitant of the house.

Furthermore, not all deceased are elderly to the point of having lost
their interest in technology. For example I recently inadvertently
attended an estate sale of a person that I had known as a child who
passed well north of 90. He had continued to buy media, media players,
and home shop tools right up to the end.
Post by SBGK
so you're mainly looking at old peoples belongings, who may not have the
same interest in high end audio as others.
They seem to know about flat screen TVs, video projectors, cable boxes,
internet, BD players and discs, subwoofers, surround sound etc.

The sale attendees are often contemporaries of the sellers and seem to
know about smart phones, etc.
Post by SBGK
I know none of my elderly neighbors or relatives have anything more than
a tv and a radio, with maybe the odd midi cd player type system. Did
they abx it before buying ?
Not all neighborhoods are the same, culturally. The sales I attend are
primarily of people who are upper middle class and up.

Tech is cheaper and more pervasive in the US than just about everywhere
else despite the backwardness of internet speeds. That is partially due
to the fact that the US is vastly more decentralized with a far lower
average population density in some areas. When one flies over the
western US there are still places with no visible roads, not even dirt
roads from horizon to horizon @ 40,000 feet.

Where do you find such places in Europe or the UK? At that altitude in
Europe you can probably see several different countries! Of course
Canada and Russia are even less densely populated.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Archimago
2015-07-07 17:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by SBGK
and if the market is always right then the abx objectivists are
increasingly like the loon shouting the world is going to end while the
likes of jplay, regen, cable manufacturers etc walk away with the
spoils.
Doesn't this depend on who and where you ask? Do you think the market
has actually spoken in favour of high-end snakeoil?

Like Arny says, the actual penetration of the high end brands of cables
and whatnot isn't all that significant. More pedestrian, moderately
expensive though well advertised items like Monster Cables and Beats is
where the financial sweet spot likely lies. JPlay/JCat, Uptone Regen,
"high end" cable companies gets their portion though I'm not sure what
"spoils" implies in terms of actual monetary reward.

No, I don't think objectivists are the loons shouting about the end of
the world (remember, "end of the world" isn't generally part of the
scientific world view unless we're talking death of the sun,
serendipitous asteroid/comet collisions, environmental catastrophes, or
nuclear armageddon).

We're the guys passing the psychic store selling mystical amulets on the
way to work and on occasion, the bravest of us would get into an
argument but ultimately carrying on with our lives. The psychic store
continues to sell their wares and more outspoken faithful believers will
patronize.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
SBGK
2015-07-08 11:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
Doesn't this depend on who and where you ask? Do you think the market
has actually spoken in favour of high-end snakeoil?
Like Arny says, the actual penetration of the high end brands of cables
and whatnot isn't all that significant. More pedestrian, moderately
expensive though well advertised items like Monster Cables and Beats is
where the financial sweet spot likely lies. JPlay/JCat, Uptone Regen,
"high end" cable companies gets their portion though I'm not sure what
"spoils" implies in terms of actual monetary reward.
No, I don't think objectivists are the loons shouting about the end of
the world (remember, "end of the world" isn't generally part of the
scientific world view unless we're talking death of the sun,
serendipitous asteroid/comet collisions, environmental catastrophes, or
nuclear armageddon).
We're the guys passing the psychic store selling mystical amulets on the
way to work and on occasion, the bravest of us would get into an
argument but ultimately carrying on with our lives. The psychic store
continues to sell their wares and more outspoken faithful believers will
patronize.
BTW: Remember this poll from Steve Hoffman forum on upgraded USB cables
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/04/perspective-poll-upgraded-usb-and-sound.html
72% didn't think it makes a difference. And I consider those guys
reasonably balanced as far as audio fanatics go...
It seems that the digital sq is improved by those working on the
margins, so upscale inc and jplay are important to those seeking an
improved sound.

Still think you must be measuring the wrong things to arrive at some of
your findings. Will be interesting when you tell the 1500 plus regen
users that, according to your measurements, what they are hearing is all
in their head.



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Archimago
2015-07-08 15:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by SBGK
It seems that the digital sq is improved by those working on the
margins, so upscale inc and jplay are important to those seeking an
improved sound.
Still think you must be measuring the wrong things to arrive at some of
your findings. Will be interesting when you tell the 1500 plus regen
users that, according to your measurements, what they are hearing is all
in their head.
Okay SBGK.

Suppose you are right with this for a moment. And say I am missing
something... Instead of no difference between bitperfect software 'like
JPlay'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/06/measurements-part-ii-bit-perfect.html)
and suppose there are huge gains to be made between different OS's (even
though I have found no difference between 'Windows 8'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/06/measurements-part-i-bit-perfect.html)
vs. 'Mac OSX'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/05/measurements-bit-perfect-audiophile.html)).
[Note that I also measured the 'AudioEngine USB DAC on Windows Server
2012 R2 as well'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/03/measurements-audioengine-d3-usb-dac.html)].

Where's the evidence? If anyone with a bit of preparation and care can
measure differences between high-bitrate lossy compressed audio vs. FLAC
easily. Show the difference between noise floor of 16-bit vs. 24-bit. Or
even as I did recently demonstrate the change in the tweeter frequency
response because I put a box 1" hung over my speakers... All of which
minimally audible at normal listen volumes, how come there is -nothing
-coming out from JPlay, AudioOptimizer [the Wndows Server advocates], or
the Audio Regen people (not even demonstration of reduction of this 8kHz
packet noise they talk about)? All these things are supposed to make
HUGE differences, right!? All we get is -faith and testimony- - and we
have millions of religious followers - 1500+ for the Regen is peanuts...
No different than a cult at this point.

Come on man. This is audio. This is engineering and products supposed to
be based out of science! At least religious followers claim the
existence of a spiritual dimension, though as far as I know, no
audiophiles dare use this explanation for what they hear and expect to
be taken with seriousness. If that's what it is, just say it...

Debate is fun and all, but I'm not specifically looking for a fight.
Audio is something I think we can all love and be passionate about, but
I think it is important to verify claims and understand whether claims
have basis in reality especially when the prices demanded of products
often appear ridiculously high and the claims made appear naive and
poorly reasoned! Honestly, this is not me wanting to "protect" others or
some kind of paternalistic desire... I do want to optimize my system and
am therefore genuinely interested in things that do make a difference.

(BTW: I just plunked down some cash for Acourate because room correction
is one area that really does matter - and measurably so!)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
jh901
2015-07-08 17:20:25 UTC
Permalink
All these things are supposed to make significant differences, right!?
Didn't you even claim to hear OS differences? All we get is -faith and
testimony- - and we have millions/billions of religious followers -
1500+ for the Regen is peanuts... No different than a tiny cult at this
point.
Did you test the UpTone Audio USB Regen Amber? 'Swenson link'
(http://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner) <---



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for
speaker & sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
arnyk
2015-07-08 11:57:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archimago
Doesn't this depend on who and where you ask?
Doesn't this depend on who and where you ask? Do you think the market
has actually spoken in favour of high-end snake oil?
It also matters: "When"

Snake oil audio cables entered the audio marketplace about the same time
as we developed the first ABX Comparator - late 1970s.

The first such product that showed up on my personal radar was Polk
Cobra speaker wire:

18353

Another contemporaneous product was "Fulton Gold"

18354

The Fulton product was just an example of the dumbed down Welding cable
school of speaker cable design. If 12 gauge sounds good, then 4 gauge
must sound 3 times better?

The Polk Cobra wire as actually both electrically different and also a
dangerous product that could lead to the failure of associated gear,
especially amplifiers.

It was an attempt to make a cable for 8 ohm speakers that actually had a
characteristic impedance in the same range. This carries with it the
implication of a lot of inter-conductor capacitance due to the
interwoven strands. Unfortunately, a lot of SS power amps of the day (it
was still the early days of SS) are near the edge of their stability
margins with high capacitance speaker cable. Not only that but flexing
would cause the old-tech enamel insulation fail and short the amplifiers
out.

It was and still is hard to take these products seriously if you are
well-informed technically.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Archimago
2015-07-08 16:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by arnyk
It also matters: "When"
Snake oil audio cables entered the audio marketplace about the same time
as we developed the first ABX Comparator - late 1970s.
The first such product that showed up on my personal radar was Polk
18356
Another contemporaneous product was "Fulton Gold"
18357
The Fulton product was just an example of the dumbed down Welding Cable
school of speaker cable design. If 12 gauge sounds good, then 4 gauge
must sound 3 times better?
The Polk Cobra wire as actually both electrically different and also a
dangerous product that could lead to the failure of associated gear,
especially amplifiers.
It was an attempt to make a cable for 8 ohm speakers that actually had a
characteristic impedance in the same range. This carries with it the
implication of a lot of inter-conductor capacitance due to the
interwoven strands. Unfortunately, a lot of SS power amps of the day (it
was still the early days of SS) are near the edge of their stability
margins with high capacitance speaker cable. Not only that but flexing
would cause the old-tech enamel insulation fail and short the amplifiers
out.
It was and still is hard to take these products seriously if you are
well-informed technically.
Nics pix Arny. I remember reading about these Polk cables! Still
"legendary" in some circles...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Archimago
2015-07-07 01:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by darrenyeats
I'm pretty sick of this forum, which is why haven't posted here for a
while. This thread is an apt time and place to express my feelings.
A while ago I wrote here
"Guys, you are coming across like some vigilantes patrolling the forum
with burning torches, ready to beat up anyone who says anything
foo-like."
This isn't a forum for scientific peer review, it's an audio forum.
Chill.
A moderator on another forum wrote: "you can have an amazing system in
the home for exactly what I paid for mine. A penny more means you're
recklessly wasteful -- a veritable prodigal son of hi-fi buying -- and a
penny less means you're a skint bastard." OH HOW TRUE!
Perhaps some of the rationalists here should take a look at their own
systems, all the excuses about wanting features, reliability etc are BS,
you bought that kit because you thought it did, or would, sound good. Do
you absolutely know you made the optimal cost-effective choice?
We're all in it because we like good sound and don't deny it.
It's just a hobby. Nobody outside this small group gives a row of beans
about what systems we have, or these ridiculous internet arguments.
Try to enjoy the hobby, it should be fun - and enjoy the music before
that.
Darren
Darren, what's eating at you man? Why so serious!? Looks to me like just
the usual "spate" of threads...

Discussion about a USB cable that changed sound in one channel (which
eventually admittedly there was some kind of hardware issue, not cable
related?), an amazing thread on claims of "morphic" room treatment which
I think is clearly bizarre, Mark Waldrep an his argument with "CD
Illumination", the usual banter about power cables, the usual banter
about speaker cables and doing a blind test, and some cool threads about
digital room correction.

I don't think rationalists make a claim of spending money "optimally"
(not one dollar more or less). Rational modern people (I believe /
hope!) incorporate understanding and science into the decision making
and can also incorporate humor into our less rational decisions since we
are all human! That's just being insightful about our quirks and
limitations. I can laugh at myself for having tried Peter Belt's rainbow
foils, spent hours twisting together ungodly amounts of Cat5 cables for
speaker wiring, using rubber cement to "reinforce" the case to my CD
player so it didn't vibrate, and obsessing over the type of footer I
needed under my equipment for years... Personally, I'm glad to be
liberated from those beliefs.

I do agree though that we shouldn't be too angry, anxious, or
frustrated. It's only a forum!

I'm not sure if I would have felt upset about coming here or reading the
responses even at that time in my life when I had Belt's foils ;-). I
guess it depends on the person and whether they allow themselves to feel
insulted about beliefs in a hobby.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842
Loading...