A few words on "the second coming of DSD"!

Discussion:

Archimago

2013-04-07 04:47:48 UTC

Well, after measuring the Oppo in DSD mode and doing the writeup, I
couldn't help but put together a few thoughts about DSD in general...

http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/04/musings-on-sacd-dsd-audio.html

Enjoy the rest of your weekend everyone :-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Mnyb

2013-04-07 05:20:29 UTC

Permalink

+1 nice blog well thought out , it does not really add anything we dont
already have , good morning btw (07:20 here) time for - some music in
whatever format- to the coffee :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Archimago

2013-04-07 05:36:03 UTC

Permalink

Post by Mnyb
+1 nice blog well thought out , it does not really add anything we dont
already have , good morning btw (07:20 here) time for - some music in
whatever format- to the coffee :)

Happy Sunday, sir. It's still 22:30 Saturday night in this part of the
world... Just right for dim lights, sweet music, and a Macallan night
cap :-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Julf

2013-04-07 07:59:21 UTC

Permalink

good morning btw (07:20 here) time for - some music in whatever format-
to the coffee :)

Unfortunately, for me, it is Dutch radio... At least there is coffee...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

ralphpnj

2013-04-07 18:42:00 UTC

Permalink

"Other than as a feature to hype up the new DAC's" - that says it all.

The best thing about the current DSD craze is just how clearly it
exposed the link between the high end audio press and their puppet
masters, i.e. their advertisers and the manufacturers. So while I
understand that not all of high end audio is composed of worthless
clowns, I am becoming more and more convinced that the 99% of the high
end press is totally corrupt and completely worthless. This is really
sad since there many very hard working individuals trying their best to
improve the quality of their equipment and there are also plenty of
manufacturers offering high quality value oriented equipment, equipment
that is often light years better than most mass market offerings.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Archimago

2013-04-08 03:22:05 UTC

Permalink

Post by ralphpnj
"Other than as a feature to hype up the new DAC's" - that says it all.
The best thing about the current DSD craze is just how clearly it
exposed the link between the high end audio press and their puppet
masters, i.e. their advertisers and the manufacturers. So while I
understand that not all of high end audio is composed of worthless
clowns, I am becoming more and more convinced that the 99% of the high
end press is totally corrupt and completely worthless. This is really
sad since there many very hard working individuals trying their best to
improve the quality of their equipment and there are also plenty of
manufacturers offering high quality value oriented equipment, equipment
that is often light years better than most mass market offerings.

The thing that really galls me about SACD is the FRAUD.

To take a CD like Norah Jones' "Come Away With Me" and basically convert
it to DSD and selling it as "Super Audio" is gross misrepresentation.
What's even more disturbing/ironic/hilarious is that they used "Come
Away With Me" on the Rolling Stones promo in 2003 as an example of "A
Better Way To Experience Music"! Of course a few months later, we all
learn the truth about that album... The failure of SACD in retrospect
isn't all that surprising with these kinds of shenanigans going on. They
had it coming and the market ultimately figures it out.

As I mentioned in the post, Norah Jones IMO was just the tip of the
iceberg.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

ralphpnj

2013-04-08 11:29:32 UTC

Permalink

Notice that even after CAWM was exposed, the record label never
re-released a proper version. How's that for fostering customer loyalty
or faith in the product?

Neither did the clowns in the audio press ever admit that they too had
been had nor apologize to their readers. In other words, lapdogs in
loyal service to their masters.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

bakker_be

2013-04-13 13:29:54 UTC

Permalink

a side by side comparison of redbook & DSD, with some quite valid
obsrvations IMO, especially the conclusion :)
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2013/04/auralic-vega-dsd-review/

------------------------------------------------------------------------
bakker_be's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30369
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Archimago

2013-04-14 04:23:41 UTC

Permalink

Post by bakker_be
a side by side comparison of redbook & DSD, with some quite valid
obsrvations IMO, especially the conclusion :)
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2013/04/auralic-vega-dsd-review/

Yeah, I think the review is generally "fair". The DAC also looks very
nice!

However, I would say that his choice of music would not lend to
demonstrate DSD's "superiority" at all (in fact, likely quite the
opposite!).

Peter Gabriel's "So" I believe was recorded in PCM and the SACD has a
very strong low-pass filter at ~20-21kHz. The 2012 24/48 release I bet
would sound better to most people side-by-side plus it's got 3 bonus
tracks!

Fagen's "The Nightfly" is well known to have been recorded in
16-bit/50kHz with 3M's digital tape system! Therefore, if you convert
that to DSD, you gain nothing in terms of better dynamic range, and in
fact likely worsened/colored the sound through the PCM --> DSD
conversion. The "definitive" version would be the 24/48 DVD release from
2007. Now that would be a fascinating comparison - 24/48 vs. SACD with
the tester knowing that technically 24/48 should be significantly
superior due to nature of the source material!

The "Immersion" Blu-Ray of "Dark Side Of The Moon" in 24/96 from 2011 is
also superior to the 2003 30th Anniversary SACD IMO.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Mnyb

2013-04-14 05:37:25 UTC

Permalink

Yeah, I think the review is generally "fair" - no audiophile worship of
the awesome 1-bit technology :-). The DAC also looks very nice!
However, I would say that his choice of music would not lend to
demonstrate DSD's "superiority" at all (in fact, likely quite the
opposite!).
Peter Gabriel's "So" I believe was recorded in PCM and the SACD has a
very strong low-pass filter at ~20-21kHz. The 2012 24/48 release I bet
would sound better to most people side-by-side plus it's got 3 bonus
tracks!
Fagen's "The Nightfly" is well known to have been recorded in
16-bit/50kHz with 3M's digital tape system! Therefore, if you convert
that to DSD, you gain nothing in terms of better dynamic range, and in
fact likely worsened/colored the sound through the PCM --> DSD
conversion. The "definitive" version would be the 24/48 DVD release from
2007. Now that would be a fascinating comparison - 24/48 vs. SACD with
the tester knowing that technically 24/48 should be significantly
superior due to nature of the source material!
The "Immersion" Blu-Ray of "Dark Side Of The Moon" in 24/96 from 2011 is
also superior to the 2003 30th Anniversary SACD IMO.
Notice the trend here... Since the decline of SACD, better hi-res PCM
remasters have been released which renders the old SACD versions moot.
BTW, as for Nick Drake - he died in 1974, the recordings on that album
are from the late 60's to early 70's. I'm pretty sure standard 16/44
would suffice to capture all that's needed... (I've heard that album in
SACD - not blown away.)
"You cant blame them file sizes are large (DSoTM is 1.8Gb) and they
are presumably still trying to pull customers into the hi-res PCM space,
itself a niche within a niche. This renders DSD a niche (super hi-res)
within a niche (hi-res) within a niche (digital audio)."
DSD (specifically DSD64 since this was what he listened to) is IMO
categorically NOT "super hi-res". At best it's around 24/88... Funny
(annoying!) how these folks insist on exaggeration the capabilities of
DSD.

Thankyou for the extended info , the only record I knew of that recorded
with the 3M system was Ry Cooders "Jazz" .
Was it not 14 bits ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Archimago

2013-04-14 05:56:50 UTC

Permalink

Post by Mnyb
Thankyou for the extended info , the only record I knew of that recorded
with the 3M system was Ry Cooders "Jazz" .
Was it not 14 bits ?

You might be right, I'll have to double check on this... Been awhile
since I read about it...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Mnyb

2013-04-14 06:08:48 UTC

Permalink

Post by Archimago
You might be right, I'll have to double check on this... Been awhile
since I read about it...

I'm not 100% sure either ? But your piont is still valid the 3M system
was a very primitive digital recordings system with performance
limitations but no audiophile complains if they are unaware of it being
used ;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

bakker_be

2013-04-14 10:27:59 UTC

Permalink

The fact that he "clearly" identified the trend for better masters (at
least for those willing to read it that way) are actually the main
reason I posted this here. I'm blisfully unaware of the exact recording
+ mastering techniques used for various records, but even in my modest
system I can quite easily hear the difference between better masters and
what I would consider flawed ones. That doesn't mean they are actually
measurably any worse, just that I don't like them, which in the end is
what it's all about.
This is also the reason why I'm not too unhappy about this Hi-Res trend:
with some luck we can have better masters released in these formats ;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
bakker_be's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30369
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Apesbrain

2013-04-14 13:17:59 UTC

Permalink

Post by Archimago

Post by Mnyb
Thankyou for the extended info , the only record I knew of that recorded
with the 3M system was Ry Cooders "Jazz" .
Was it not 14 bits ?> > You might be right, I'll have to double check on this... Been awhile

since I read about it...

Sorry to further detour this thread, but you're thinking of his next
album, '-Bop Till You Drop-'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bop_till_You_Drop) (1979).
See also: http://mixonline.com/TECnology-Hall-of-Fame/1978-EM-Mastering/

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apesbrain's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=738
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Mnyb

2013-04-14 13:48:42 UTC

Permalink

Post by Apesbrain
Sorry to further detour this thread, but you're thinking of his next
album, '-Bop Till You Drop-'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bop_till_You_Drop) (1979).
See also: http://mixonline.com/TECnology-Hall-of-Fame/1978-EM-Mastering/

Actuall I think "Jazz" also was recorded this way , bit you cleared up
the 16 bit issue , it used 12 + 8 bits in some way :) I misremembered
that one .

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Mnyb

2013-04-14 13:53:17 UTC

Permalink

Post by Mnyb
Actuall I think "Jazz" also was recorded this way , bit you cleared up
the 16 bit issue , it used 12 + 8 bits in some way :) I misremembered
that one .

..but I don't know where I got that from ? , hate LP sleeve or something
.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Wombat

2013-07-18 19:18:51 UTC

Permalink

Interesting how business seems to work. Blade Runner in this case.

There he states he got a 24bit 88.2khz file that is uncompressed, as i
understand he got this directly from Warner.
The funny thing is that they are doing a SACD release from this with
recording it sourced from a Meitner ADC8 into a Tascam DV-RA1000HD:
'Audio Fidelity Reissuing \"Blade Runner\" Sndtrk On Vinyl LP and SACD*'
(http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/audio-fidelity-reissuing-blade-runner-sndtrk-on-vinyl-lp-and-sacd.311362/page-10#post-9147415)
Sadly no info if analog or digital but my bet is on it is done analog.
The recorded DSD file goes to SACD mastering. The CD layer is another
conversation back from the DSD.

This means the CD is 24/88.2kHz PCM -> DSD (most likely analog) ->
16/44.1kHz PCM in some way

Since in the link to the Steve Hoffman forum he praises the quality from
the files they got from Warner me as customer really has to wonder why
not getting the 24/88.2KHz directly and preventing some pointless format
conversions.

I donŽt have the Audio Fidelity version but the 25th Anniversary edition
from Warner themself. In theory these CDs may sound nearer to the
24/88.2kHz version if Warner used that master files in 2007 already.

Of course one can use the conversion steps to add some tiny spectral
enhancements and audiophile sparkling noise...

P.S. Regarding the video, did anbody else wonder how some ancient
blinking electric bulbs can cause excitement in the days of real-time
spectral analysis in modern computer audio editors?

Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

firedog

2013-07-24 16:45:20 UTC

Permalink

First off, I agree that DSD doesn't have a big future. Most of the music
being recorded in DSD today is classical. If you like classical you can
even get quite a decent library as downloads. Otherwise, there isn't
much to get.

I think a lot of the excitement about DSD is coming from audiophiles who
have a large or reasonably large investment in SACD. For them the DSD
DACs are quite a boon, now that they have a way to rip the SACD/DSD to
HD. IMO, these rips sound better than the SACD they came from. Plus it
adds the convenience of computer audio for the owners of these discs.
There are enough of these people around to make it useful for high end
audio companies to add DSD capabilities to DACs. These expensive DACs
sell in small absolute numbers anyway, so adding the buyers who are
interested in DSD is worthwhile for these companies. In other words, I
think it is a logical business decision on their part, not just cynical
"check box marketing". And don't forget, the companies that don't jump
on board with DSD now risk losing customers to companies who do, so
that's another incentive for them.

As far as sound quality, I think native DSD recordings sound fantastic
when well done. Some of my classical recordings are probably the most
natural, best sounding recordings of any type I have - including other
hi-res (example: the Mahler symphonies from Blue Coast in DSD).

I also have some analog>DSD conversions that sound wonderful. To my
ears, DSD is better for this than PCM - the result just sounds more
natural and analog-like.

So purely in terms of SQ, I think there is a legitimate place for DSD.

Yes, a lot of SACDs are made from upsampled Redbook or analogue.
Deriving them from upsampled PCM is a rip-off. But as I stated, I think
DSD derived from analog is a very legitimate use, and from my reckoning,
of about 8000 SACDs in existence, about 1500 are recorded in native DSD.
Many of these SACDs still aren't available in any other hi-res format.
So I don't see the problem with either the native DSD ones or the
SACD/DSD derived from analog.

All that said, I do think the future of hi-res is in 24/96 and 24/192.
And I certainly have no problem with that. I just wish there was more
new and archive material available in properly done hi-res.

GIK Acoustics Room Treatments. Tranquil PC fanless server running
Windows 7; SB Touch slaved to Empirical Audio Pace Car; Mytek 192 DSD
DAC;Custom Desinged Class AB control amp; Devore Gibbon 9 Speakers; Dual
506 + Ortofon M20 (occasional use); sometimes use PC with M-Audio 192 as
digital source. SB Boom in second room. Arcam CD82 which I don't use
anymore, even though it's a very good player.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
firedog's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11550
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

cdmackay

2013-08-02 19:42:24 UTC

Permalink

... But as I stated, I think DSD derived from analog is a very
legitimate use, and from my reckoning, of about 8000 SACDs in existence,
about 1500 are recorded in native DSD. Many of these SACDs still aren't
available in any other hi-res format. So I don't see the problem with
either the native DSD ones or the SACD/DSD derived from analog.
All that said, I do think the future of hi-res is in 24/96 and 24/192.
And I certainly have no problem with that. I just wish there was more
new and archive material available in properly done hi-res.

[apologies for late reply]

I've whimpered about this before, but I still hold out hope of a
resource, listing recordings available in hi-res, with notes on the
various versions, and how they relate to original mastering, etc.

e.g. just as you say, "this recording was originally recorded in DSD,
and thus this SACD version is the best available", or "these 24/96 files
are in fact upsampled from some old vinyl that the engineer found in his
lavatory", etc, etc.

I would love to see that, rather than have to fight with the loonies in
various HD forums; after getting used to the sense talked here, I can't
bear it...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
cdmackay's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=24816
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Mnyb

2013-08-03 08:25:52 UTC

Permalink

Post by cdmackay
[apologies for late reply]
I've whimpered about this before, but I still hold out hope of a
resource, listing recordings available in hi-res, with notes on the
various versions, and how they relate to original mastering, etc.
e.g. just as you say, "this recording was originally recorded in DSD,
and thus this SACD version is the best available", or "these 24/96 files
are in fact upsampled from some old vinyl that the engineer found in his
lavatory", etc, etc.
I would love to see that, rather than have to fight with the loonies in
various HD forums; after getting used to the sense talked here, I can't
bear it...

+1 that .

Then we get things back into proportions , it is the master and the real
recording quality that is the issue , not the consumer carrier format ,
which is completely unimportant as long it's 16/44.1 lossles or better
just pick any .

That said converting good SACD's that where sourced from analog to
something like 24/88.2 would actually be a good idea . you would
theoretically have a possibility of a small conversion loss , but that
"loss" would not be audiable to a human being in any case .

Another issue is how these newfangled DSD DAC's really works , like any
imperfect tech they seems not to treat all signal equally ?
If there is a difference in sound DSD vs PCM I gues you should look for
problems in the DAC or the source material .
Yes that's my 0.02$ on it if anything >16/44.1 sounds different it's in
the DAC or the source material . either the DAC designs is off or the
different sources does not really sound the same due to different
masters or engineering mistakes.

You can test part of it , convert a good real 24/192 track to any/all
formats >=16/44.1 yourself and try out if it sounds really different you
got an issue . or you could turn it , if you really like your DAC you
migth find out which kind of signals it works best with . if it is a NOS
DAC wo filters as high as possible is a good guess .

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

Wombat

2013-08-03 15:37:05 UTC

Permalink

One thing i notice is the ones that now swear dsd sounds better then
everything else are often the ones that heard strange things before but
never seriously questinoned themself. Higher numbers are enough to make
their minds hear things. Now that they read about how great dsd is they
hear it for better.

Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

RonM

2013-07-25 12:06:35 UTC

Permalink

Post by Mnyb
Actuall I think "Jazz" also was recorded this way , bit you cleared up
the 16 bit issue , it used 12 + 8 bits in some way :) I misremembered
that one .

Bob Till You Drop was the first digitally recorded album, using the 3M
device as noted. Ry didn't actually like the result much, in terms of
sound quality. Personally, I think the album is great and find the
sound perfectly fine. See the Wikipedia article on digital recording at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_recording.

As to Jazz, this might be my favorite Cooder recording, although again
I've seen Ry expressing some negative thoughts about the project. It
was recorded in the classical analog fashion.

R.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

RonM

2013-07-25 15:15:32 UTC

Permalink

For the truly geeky, a full history of digital recording can be found at
the link below. There were digital recordings before Cooder's, but his
is considered the first pop multi-track one.

http://www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/fine_dawn-of-digital.pdf

R.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482

garym

2013-07-25 17:10:02 UTC

Permalink

Post by RonM
For the truly geeky, a full history of digital recording can be found at
the link below. There were digital recordings before Cooder's, but his
is considered the first pop multi-track one. It's truly interesting to
note that in several cases digital recording was done simultaneously to
analog direct-to-disc, and that upon subsequent comparative listening,
digital was considered superior and became the source for the ultimate
release.
http://www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/fine_dawn-of-digital.pdf
R.

very interesting. I recall buying "Bop Till You Drop" on vinyl back
when it was released and thinking "what in the heck is this digital
stuff and why does it matter?" Little did I know what my music
listening process/means would look like many years later. ;-)

*Location 1:* VortexBox Appliance 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Transporter,
Touch, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.7.2 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > SqueezePlay
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S (iPeng), iPad2 (iPengHD & SqueezePad),
CONTROLLER, or SqueezePlay 7.7 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Spotify
------------------------------------------------------------------------
garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98482